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Lory
6th-February-2007, 09:36 PM
Strictly Baby Ballroom

Channel 4, tonight, 9.00pm - 10pm

Its a documentary following children who are taking part in the British Juvenile Ballroom Championships


It might be worth watching :grin:

LMC
6th-February-2007, 09:47 PM
I saw the trailer for this and had a right ol' rant about it.

The trailer was showing all those kids as mini-adults - little girls made up to a degree which I found, actually, extremely uncomfortable. And little boys who seemed totally miserable about competing - one poor little chap said that he felt sick.

Someone I talked to about it said that they were "pushed" into dancing as a child and quit - and regretted quitting. However, what was telling to me was that it appeared to be the discomfort (physical in the preparation - hair, makeup etc. as well as mental) inherent in *competing* that this person was rebelling against - they said that they enjoyed the dancing itself. Perhaps they would have continued with the classes without parental pressure?

Pushy parents who have missed out on the latest craze and regret it should let their kids be kids - by all means encourage them to go to dance classes. But don't force the poor children to compete.

I can't watch - I know I'll just end up shouting at the TV :blush:

Lory
6th-February-2007, 09:51 PM
I can't watch - I know I'll just end up shouting at the TV :blush:

Oh go on! You know you want to :wink:

And then you can come on here and let off steam! :D :yeah:

LMC
6th-February-2007, 09:53 PM
Hell with that, I have wireless broadband, I can watch and rant at the same time :D :D :rofl:

LMC
6th-February-2007, 10:05 PM
RIGHT!

It's only just got past the preamble and I'm annoyed!

The poor kid who said about parents pushing and pushing and pushing...

The dad who said "We're not here for fun..." - and the daughter saying that she doesn't get to go out much and can't see her friends as much as she'd like to :(. She's 9.

I can't even be mad any more. I'm too sad for them :(

Lory
6th-February-2007, 11:19 PM
RIGHT!

It's only just got past the preamble and I'm annoyed!

The poor kid who said about parents pushing and pushing and pushing...

The dad who said "We're not here for fun..." - and the daughter saying that she doesn't get to go out much and can't see her friends as much as she'd like to :(. She's 9.

I can't even be mad any more. I'm too sad for them :(

:yeah: I agree with you!

IMO, some of it almost amounted to child abuse!:(

The parents of the girl who got 1st place, treated her like a pet project, not a daughter! it was more about 'them' winning, nothing to do with her enjoying it!

When they sat round the table giving her the pre-dance talking to, I wanted the daughter to say, OK fine, I won't do it then!

God help her the day she looses, that's all I say :tears:

The young 'John Travolta' was funny though! A born lady killer, if ever i've seen one :rolleyes: :rofl:

And didn't they all look old :sick:

angelique
6th-February-2007, 11:22 PM
HOw sick was that????????????

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: ...that's really all I can say!

LMC
6th-February-2007, 11:41 PM
Well, I missed the last half 'cos I was on the phone.

But what got me was the difference between the 1st place kid (and her horrible horrible parents who should be reported to Social Services for mental and emotional abuse :mad: ) and the 2nd place little girl (?Tabitha) who was looking for a new partner - equally dreadful pushy mother, but the child was obviously keen to be dancing (in the first half of the programme anyway).

And as for the hip wiggling and the make up - they're LITTLE GIRLS - what a shame that they are forced to grow up so fast :tears:

Northants Girly
7th-February-2007, 12:44 AM
Only caught the last 5 mins . . . . . anyone know if it's going to be shown again?

Sparkles
7th-February-2007, 10:44 AM
A note about costume:
There are actually strict rules in place in terms of what the little girls and boys are allowed to wear on the competition dance floor up to the age of twelve. As you saw in the film, their dresses were modest (in terms of not much skin on show) they were all one colour and had no sequins, beads or feathers on. The boys wear black trousers and a white shirt (and a tie for ballroom). There is also a restriction placed on how high the girls heels are allowed to be, to protect their growing feet. They are allowed a hair decoration and make up - but I too thought the amount of make up, false nails and fake tan on the little girls featured was excessive.

I thought the parents were all very pushy, and seemed to be living their own ambitions through their children. The only parents that seemed even vaguely normal were those of the little boy Mason, who had not done ballroom dancing before he partnered Tabatha.
I was astounded by the amount of criticism the young people received from their parents. I remember being (almost) bullied by my dancing teachers when I was young to try harder and do better, but never by my parents - they always said that as long as I tried my best that was what counted.

Two of my old dancing teachers were actually on the show!!
Training Tabatha was Mark, and in the background Nick, who both used to teach me when I was at Uni. Lovely guys, happy memories.

LMC
7th-February-2007, 11:47 AM
Interesting to hear the costume rules (half - guessed from the similarity of them all) - thanks Sparkles.

As an afterthought (still feeling a bit sore meself after the weekend!) I can't help wondering about the strain on growing muscles and joints from all the repetitive exercise and 'tension' required to hold frame etc. Didn't some of the very young Russian gymnasts (Comaneci et al) really suffer in their 20s after Olympic fame in their teens?

Aleks
7th-February-2007, 12:21 PM
As an afterthought (still feeling a bit sore meself after the weekend!) I can't help wondering about the strain on growing muscles and joints from all the repetitive exercise and 'tension' required to hold frame etc. Didn't some of the very young Russian gymnasts (Comaneci et al) really suffer in their 20s after Olympic fame in their teens?


This happens for anyone who constantly trains; dancers/athletes etc.
There's no getting away from the wear and tear on the body if you're constantly pushing the boundaries of your ability.
If it's because what you do is truly your passion it's certainly more tolerable than doing it because someone else is pushing you....

Aleks
7th-February-2007, 12:26 PM
I remember being (almost) bullied by my dancing teachers when I was young to try harder and do better

Might this be because a large part of their credibility and status as teachers come from the achievements of their pupils? A bit like cabaret perfomers at MJ events/aspiring teachers citing how many competitions they've won :wink: (which I find pretty unimpressive, no matter what the competition, probably because I was always taught dance by someone who had a recognised dance teaching qualification).

In some ways I prefer an exam system to competition, certainly for children - you're examined on your dance ability within a framework of expectation, rather than whether you're better/worse/more impressive than another on any particular day.

Dreadful Scathe
7th-February-2007, 01:19 PM
A bit like cabaret perfomers at MJ events/aspiring teachers citing how many competitions they've won

Hey, I'm a National Champion Ill have you know. Maybe I should put it on my CV :) Though I'm not an aspiring teache...but...If any beginners want lessons I have a good 5 mins worth of modern jive to teach you ;)

Aleks
7th-February-2007, 01:32 PM
Hey, I'm a National Champion Ill have you know. Maybe I should put it on my CV :) Though I'm not an aspiring teache...but...If any beginners want lessons I have a good 5 mins worth of modern jive to teach you ;)

Enjoy your achievements but as I said, it's not something I find particularly impressive.

TheTramp
7th-February-2007, 01:56 PM
A bit like cabaret perfomers at MJ events/aspiring teachers citing how many competitions they've won :wink: (which I find pretty unimpressive, no matter what the competition, probably because I was always taught dance by someone who had a recognised dance teaching qualification).

So, given that there are no recognised dancing qualifications in MJ (or salsa, WCS, etc.), and very few (3 that I know of in MJ, but probably a couple more here and there) teachers who have ever studied dance, how would you choose which teachers to be taught by then?

Aleks
7th-February-2007, 01:59 PM
(which I find pretty unimpressive, no matter what the competition, probably because I was always taught dance by someone who had a recognised dance teaching qualification).

Bad form quoting yourself I know....
Just wanted to qualify:
I would still consider competition winners to be good dancers, just that the fact that they won stuff doesn't impress me.
I was taught to dance with the goal being that of becoming a performer....there are no classical ballet competitions, just the hope (if you're ambitious) that you'll be part of a dance company one day, giving your all, doing what you love!

Aleks
7th-February-2007, 02:03 PM
So, given that there are no recognised dancing qualifications in MJ (or salsa, WCS, etc.), and very few (3 that I know of in MJ, but probably a couple more here and there) teachers who have ever studied dance, how would you choose which teachers to be taught by then?

When watching them dancing inspires me.
At my ripe age I dance for fun.
I enjoy the physical movement and the social part that goes with it.
Any improvement in my dance ability is in the hope that I will be a more enjoyable partner.
If I ever wanted to compete I'd choose a sport.
I consider dance to be an 'art'.

David Bailey
7th-February-2007, 02:27 PM
So, given that there are no recognised dancing qualifications in MJ (or salsa, WCS, etc.), and very few (3 that I know of in MJ, but probably a couple more here and there) teachers who have ever studied dance, how would you choose which teachers to be taught by then?
Word-of-mouth, obviously.

There's no "recognised" dance qualifications in any social dance - that means you've got to try a lot of different teachers before you find one that's good for you. The phrase "kiss a lot of frogs" comes to mind... :devil:

Aleks
7th-February-2007, 02:38 PM
We've come along way off-topic!
My original point was that I don't see many benefits to the child in competing against others, especially if it's for the increased status of the teacher.
The pholosophy I was taught was to compete against myself - to do something better this week than last for no other reason than to be the best I could be; certainly not better than anyone else in my class or from another dance school.

robd
7th-February-2007, 08:38 PM
Back on topic!

I just watched this after recording it last night and I enjoyed it though agree with many of the criticisms above levelled at pushy parents. It's hard to know if it was a realistic portrayal of the pressures of that life or if it is instead the portrayal that the programme's producers wished to give of that life. I did start pondering whether there was a link between 'only' children and the pushy parents but then the third pair were introduced and obviously as brother and sister they were not only parents. Also I can't be sure that the other two featured girls were only children, just that their siblings were never screened if they existed.

Nice parallels with dancing in probably pretty much every form which is many women compared to few men meaning the good men get to call the shots.

And ref to the spray tan comments above, what is that all about? Is it not possible to compete in 'the latin' without looking an unhealthy shade of orange? Would you be marked down?

Finally, I am not surprised that the champion boy's parents dumped his partner via text. Can you imagine trying to explain it to her parents in person? :rolleyes:

Robert

Minnie M
7th-February-2007, 08:54 PM
So, given that there are no recognised dancing qualifications in MJ (or salsa, WCS, etc.).............

The nearest thing to actual qualifications for WCS is a 'Points Register' http://www.swingdancecouncil.com/library/wsdcpointsregistry.htm

try doing a search on someone you know (eg: our very own Brady Rogers) and you will see what I mean. (this link is at the bottom of the 'page')
http://www.swingdancecouncil.com/registry_search_backup.asp

We could easily set this up for Modern Jive


.........there are no classical ballet competitions,
The pro ballet dancers I have known have all been very competitive, even though they do not have conventional competitions - it's a shame they don't have a similar sort of thing as they do in other forms of dancing.

Sparkles
7th-February-2007, 10:02 PM
It's hard to know if it was a realistic portrayal of the pressures of that life or if it is instead the portrayal that the programme's producers wished to give of that life.

I believe that the portrayal was true, and that those few dancers filmed really did 'do all that' (in terms of classes, costumes, money spent etc.). I don't think any of it was put on for the camera (except for the little boy who said he and his sister didn't fight much "because you're not supposed to say that sort of thing on TV" :rofl: ).

However, I think that the dancers filmed represented a relatively small proportion of the total population of children that do ballroom dancing. Aside from the types of competition featured there are also medallists competitions which are IMO much less fraught.
Plus many kids don't do competitions at all, some just complete their medals, and some do it just for fun. Most of the mothers and fathers of ballroom dancing childern that I have been in contact with do nothing but praise and support their children. They want them to be happy, and ballroom dancing makes a great many people happy. It's a deceptively expensive sport, but parents are willing to lay out their hard-earned to support their children in ballroom dancing, and far from resenting it (as one mother in the TV programme seemed to, saying she would prefer to go on holiday more often) they encourage them to continue and to do the best they can. :respect:

robd
7th-February-2007, 10:25 PM
I believe that the portrayal was true, and that those few dancers filmed really did 'do all that' (in terms of classes, costumes, money spent etc.). I don't think any of it was put on for the camera (except for the little boy who said he and his sister didn't fight much "because you're not supposed to say that sort of thing on TV" :rofl: ).


My comment was based more on the possibility that judicious editing may have been used to make the parents look more pushy than they actually were and to make the children involved look more unwilling, especially the girl who won the championship. It's a common complaint levelled at documentary makers after the event. Then again it may have been a fair and balanced representation - I just don't know.

Sparkles
8th-February-2007, 12:38 AM
In the interests of science and by way of a comparrison competitive baby WCS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqbDWpP4h2A) - this year's winners in the age 6-12 SwingDiego competition. Any thoughts?

spindr
8th-February-2007, 12:48 AM
Hmmm, SBB is still on the video waiting to be perused, but given the snow tomorrow that might not be for long.

Anyway, just a comment that we had four youngsters dance as the cabaret at GingerJive on Friday -- they had us, the audience, absolutely spellbound, it was the quietest ever with everyone concentrating and wishing them well.

One boy and girl (probably both about 9) danced a waltz, and later a samba (to Shakira's "Hips Don't Lie) -- more as an exhibition, than a demo -- dancing the whole length of both tracks. Two other girls (probably about 8) danced a quickstep, and later a cha-cha -- again dancing the whole length of both tracks. Both "couples" danced really, really well -- with exceptional concentration, etc. None of them looked orange!

Nobody seemed particularly pushy, just supportive. They all seemed relatively normal, e.g. the boy was busy playing some gameboy or other before and after dancing. The kids also seemed to enjoy dancing and came on to the corner of the floor and were dancing and practicing after their demo -- they *did* have to be encouraged not to do a particularly deep drop -- they're below my eye level at the best of times :)

SpinDr

P.S. I didn't hear the question when they were sitting around waiting to change -- but I loved the answer: "No dear, there's *no* footwork". Out of the mouths of babes, eh!

littlewiggle
8th-February-2007, 08:13 AM
one mother in the TV programme seemed to, saying she would prefer to go on holiday more often

My goodness - what a witch she was! Her children were not placed so she proceeded to tell them how rubbish everyone else was. Bitter? Who dear? Her dear? No dear!

rubyred
8th-February-2007, 11:00 AM
In the interests of science and by way of a comparrison competitive baby WCS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqbDWpP4h2A) - this year's winners in the age 6-12 SwingDiego competition. Any thoughts?


Well I wonder if John and Wes will be booking them in a few years?? :wink:
They looked fab as did the young people doing the ballroom but its the parents who have problems. The parent who lives out their own ambitions throught their children is not a good receipe for a stable childhood. To be told that everyone that did better than you was crap and therefore you were the crappiest is cruel and abusive. Maybe doesn't meet the threshold for Care Proceedings, [but I am sure that if the young people are showing signs of emotional abuse,e.g.self harming, always too eager too please, non achievers, then they may,] non the less this form of parenting can lead young people to have major hang ups in adult life. :( :sad:

Aleks
8th-February-2007, 11:46 AM
The pro ballet dancers I have known have all been very competitive, even though they do not have conventional competitions - it's a shame they don't have a similar sort of thing as they do in other forms of dancing.

Then possibly the two schools I attended were exceptional. Parents and pupils were actively discouraged from vying against each other and dressing room spats were dealt with by suggesting that the pupil/parent go elsewhere for their tuition if one-up-man-ship was their goal. They then had to decide whether the quality of the tuition they received was good enough to warrant a change in behaviour. Given that these two schools gained the best overall exam results in the area and the highest success rate for the transition to becoming a professional dancer at the time, quality won more often than not.

I have no experience of other strategies so can't really comment. My only experience of competing is when I stood in last minute for someone who was injured and it was awful so maybe I'm not the right person to comment. Dressing room politics simply aren't for me.

Tessalicious
8th-February-2007, 12:13 PM
Not to be too down on the'child-abuse, cruel and unusual' crowd - but although I didn't see the programme, I've seen the kind of parental behaviour that you guys are talking about in all forms of childhood activity.

From dancing to sport, from music to drama, from academic high achievers to child prodigies, there will always be children that can achieve something their parents never had the opportunity to and there will always be some parents (not all, fortunately) that push their children to beyond their real potential.

The line between encouragement and undue pressure is different for every single child - I saw kids in the music scene who were pushed to their limits by their parents and loved the martyrdom of it, as well as the power of having the pushiest parent so therefore they got the best treatment from teachers (because otherwise the parent would kick up a fuss) - they grew up thinking that you can get anything you want by being bossy enough.

I saw others that weren't pushed but encouraged and were fabulous, but didn't get the recognition they deserved because of the other pushy ones - they learnt that being good doesn't necessarily get you anywhere.

I've seen kids that were pushed too hard and rebelled against it - they learnt to stand up for themselves and what they wanted, but that the easy road wasn't always the right one.

It's really difficult to say that one way is right and one way is wrong, because everyone's different. Who's to say that a lot of the kids that complained weren't just playing up in front of the camera for some attention, since they're probably pretty used to being the centre of it? Of course, any parent that uses their child for glory and financial gain without the child benefitting at least equally from it sounds pretty cold, but don't be too quick to judge from one programme.

Daisy Chain
8th-February-2007, 01:01 PM
To be told that everyone that did better than you was crap and therefore you were the crappiest is cruel and abusive. :( :sad:


I interpreted this as the pushy Mum saying that the judging were crap as her child hasd been eliminated. ie her child was actually better than the winners?

Daisy

(A Non-Ballroom Little Flower)

rubyred
8th-February-2007, 01:37 PM
I interpreted this as the pushy Mum saying that the judging were crap as her child hasd been eliminated. ie her child was actually better than the winners?

Daisy

(A Non-Ballroom Little Flower)

I thought she was referring to the standard of the other competitors :confused: , she looked quite kind actually.

However looking at the picture in more global terms and not just focusing on the program. There has been research done which explored the need for balance in the interactions with the child. If the child is subjected to contunual negative parenting it will of course be damaging. If the negative events are interspersed with positive experinces then outcomes will be better. In families that are ' low in warmth and high on criticism' the accumualtive effect of negative incidents remind the child that she or he is unloved. A lot of money was probably spent on this research to remind us of what is obvious.!!

littlewiggle
8th-February-2007, 07:11 PM
I interpreted this as the pushy Mum saying that the judging were crap as her child hasd been eliminated. ie her child was actually better than the winners?

Daisy

(A Non-Ballroom Little Flower)

Yes that was my interpretation too - I thought she was a very poor loser and set a dreadful example for her children.

rubyred
8th-February-2007, 08:41 PM
More fun on Channel 5 at 8pm with 'Pushy Parents'

jacksondonut
9th-February-2007, 11:12 AM
In the interests of science and by way of a comparrison competitive baby WCS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqbDWpP4h2A) - this year's winners in the age 6-12 SwingDiego competition. Any thoughts?

Well, I thought that they looked like they were actually enjoying themselves and it was lovely to see. If at that age they are so talented, wow... I am so very impressed.. :worthy: :worthy:

Dorothy
11th-February-2007, 04:53 PM
Baby Ballroom show - I LOVED it! Is it a series???????