Frustrated Female [Archive] - Ceroc Scotland Forum

Twirlie Bird

31st-January-2007, 02:10 AM

Ok. I have thought long and hard about posting this. I still don't know if it's a good idea. I am feeling very frustrated and really could do with venting this and hopefully getting some advice.

I haven't been dancing long but I have been dancing long enough to know I LOVE it. The feeling of twirling around the dance floor is unbelievable. I never imagined it would feel so good. I seem to be getting the moves quickly and remembering them. I feel that I have advanced well and am pleased with what I have acheived so far. It's the what happens next bit where I'm stuck.

I have started dancing 4 times a week. This is accelerated my learning curve. I am learning a lot of new intermediate moves. This is just adding to my frustration. When I go out and dance with people this is what I am finding. There are the beginners who are still trying to grasp the basic moves. The dancers who have been doing it for years and are amazing to dance with and everyone in between. I find that the majority of guys have their own little routines and favourite moves. Some people I dance with I could pretty much follow with my eyes closed as they are so predictable. Please don't think I am having a downer on these guys as I really am not.

When I dance with the very experienced dancers I feel that I am being pushed, taxed, my own dancing is being expanded. I have to think and I love it. I learn even more new moves and learn style. This is when I am on a complete high. This is how I want to feel all night. Obviously I cannot feel this all night and this is where my frustration comes in.

I don't know if any of this is making any sense. I really don't want to sound bigheaded. I would be the first to say that I have so very much to learn yet. I just don't know how I can drive my own learning. I learn these intermediate moves but as I am the followerer I cannot decide to dance these moves. Apart from hogging the experienced guys all night I really don't know how to better myself.

Sorry to go on. :what:

Ghost

31st-January-2007, 02:25 AM

When dancing with the beginners / predictable ones, work on your technique and style. How can you follow even more smoothly? Work on your floorcraft. Musicality - where can you add your own elements without disrupting the lead? How can you adjust the way you're dancing to better fit the music, the style of the lead, the dancing of those around you? Etc

Jamie

31st-January-2007, 02:39 AM

Firstly... can I just say, it scares me when followers say they've "learned" moves...

The only time a follower should learn a move (except the basics of course!) in my opinion, is if it is coreographed.. IE: foot work type moves, arials, drops etc...

Rather than learning the "moves" themselves.. Learn to follow.

Following takes time to master, learning not to anticipate etc.. learning not to back lead.. I'm not saying you do any of these, these are just examples that I have come across myself whilst learning to follow.

Have fun!

WittyBird

31st-January-2007, 02:44 AM

Learn to follow.

Following takes time to master, learning not to anticipate etc.. learning not to back lead..

:yeah: Then you get the fun stuff like sabotage and play :wink:

Enjoy it and go with what you feel :rofl: Unless your being straddled whilst trying to sleep :rofl:

Sorry babes :flower:

Twirlie Bird

31st-January-2007, 02:56 AM

Rather than learning the "moves" themselves.. Learn to follow.
Have fun!

I kind of understand what you are saying. If the followers don't need to learn the moves though then why are they in the classes? Your theory works well if the lead does just that. If they are a weaker lead and the follower doesn't know the move that they are trying to do it's all going to go wrong.

I'm sure that you could take me on the dance floor and dance moves with me that I have never done before. I'm sure that I could follow these moves as I'm sure that you are a very good lead. So yes I agree with you. However if I then danced with you again and you repeated one of these moves then I woudo be able to dance better that time with you.

Hope this makes sense. Maybe we could put it to the test on Thursday. :nice:

Twirlie Bird

31st-January-2007, 02:57 AM

:yeah: Then you get the fun stuff like sabotage and play :wink:

Oh I didn't even know this existed. See so much to learn. :nice:

WittyBird

31st-January-2007, 02:59 AM

Jamie

31st-January-2007, 03:10 AM

{snip}
Hope this makes sense. Maybe we could put it to the test on Thursday. :nice:

Yes I understand what you're saying, but one of my arguments against this is... I have never attended a class as a follower, yet I am competent enough to follow most moves that are thrown at me, unless the lead is so poor you can't work out what you're expect to do!... as you say if the lead is poor then it all goes to pot, but then that's when the magical rule comes in "It's always the mans fault!"

And if that's an invitation for a dance, I'd love to! Come say hi to me, I'll be the young guy accompanying witty!

WittyBird

31st-January-2007, 03:14 AM

And if that's an invitation for a dance, I'd love to! Come say hi to me, I'll be the young guy accompanying Witty!

Grab me as well sweetie please :D I will be wearing black and white, you wont really miss us all. Fletch is the tall one with massive t1ts and blonde hair - please grab us all :whistle:

Amy1

31st-January-2007, 03:35 AM

under par

31st-January-2007, 09:11 AM

Twirly Bird, what you describe is the second biggest problem that ceroc/leroc etc has.

The first is the retention of males/leaders and making them the competent /pleasant/ challenging dancers you describe as the dancers who give you the buzz/high.

Ceroc/leroc do not appear to have grasped that it is the very good male leads that the improving/advanced followers need and chase to get their highs.

The fact there is always more women than men should encourage Leroc Ceroc to provide higher quality training for the leaders so that more of them can satisfy the followers needs.

The problem you have desribed is that once you have learned to follow well your lessons are boring/dull. I do not believe most followers learn anything new after about 6-8 months of following from lessons.
After this period of time followers learn far more from freestyling with good leads than anything from a lesson. (workshops involving style tecniquue an exception)

Followers are in fact the manequins that are required by leaders to learn the moves taught during classes.
Although beginner followers believe they need to LEARN moves this is never challenged by teachers and is actually a hindrance to leaders learning to lead IMHO

Leaders actually need followers who do not anticipate or backlead during classes so they can learn to properly LEAD the moves being taught.

I hope that all dance class organisers will prioritise their teaching to improving the quality of their leaders which will in turn satisfy the needs and requirements of the far more numerous, much higher standard followers.

fletch

31st-January-2007, 09:26 AM

The problem you have desribed is that once you have learned to follow well your lessons are boring/dull. I do not believe most followers learn anything new after about 6-8 months of following from lessons.
After this period of time followers learn far more from freestyling with good leads than anything from a lesson. (workshops involving style tecniquue an exception)

:yeah:

the thought of 7 ladies on :sick: but i'm more than happy to dance with anyone after the lesson :flower:

StokeBloke

31st-January-2007, 10:59 AM

but i'm more than happy to dance with anyone after the lesson :flower:
This is about to be put to the test Fletch :whistle:

I am following this thread with interest. As a lead it's important to me that dances are fun and challenging for my partner. I know some guys stick to a neat little routine. But that has it's own problems. Understanding what the follow wants from a dance will make it easier for the lead to provide just that. Everyone's happy :D

I have read comments suggesting that you work on the finer points of style. Whilst I'm sure that's valid, it doesn't strike me as exactly a fun way to spend a couple of hours of freestyle! I mean that would be fine, up to a point. But wouldn't you just get even more frustrated in a 'why am I bothering to learn to dance really nicely when every week I see the same faces and get the same moves' sort of a way. I am not trying to be negative here, I'm just trying to understand what's going on!

I guess it comes down to what you want to get from your dancing. Some people just want a carefree laugh, others want other things... (me - I just want to survive a dance with Fletch and Witty :love: ). Work out what you want first, then you would be better placed to find it :wink:

MartinHarper

31st-January-2007, 11:23 AM

If the followers don't need to learn the moves though then why are they in the classes?

To make me happy.

WittyBird

31st-January-2007, 11:33 AM

To make me happy.

I suppose that's possible, after all today is Hell freezing over day :D

Dai

31st-January-2007, 11:52 AM

I guess it comes down to what you want to get from your dancing. Some people just want a carefree laugh, others want other things... (me - I just want to survive a dance with Fletch and Witty :love: ).

Well a dance with Fletch and Witty, at the same time huh - ok that would be interesting -i'd love to watch that!!! You may struggle a little with the difference in height, and their dance styles, for double trouble, especially as you said you tried on your birthday, and struggled then too!!

But if you manage it, and make it look good - well :respect: credit where credit is due!!

Beowulf

31st-January-2007, 11:54 AM

Twirly Bird (oh dear another Twirly.. this could get confusing ;) :rofl: )

I sympathise with your predicament. All I can do is pass on the information that was passed on to me as a Newbie Lead. I used to complain frequently about doing the intermediate classes but only ever remembering a very small percentage of each class. I used to worry about being a dull and uninteresting dance partner and that followers would get bored with my repertoire of mostly Beginner moves and a handful of intermediate ones. (am famous for my repeated use of the Yo-yo per dance.. perhaps infamous is a better word :blush:)

However , the collected wisdom I received can be boiled down, condensed and regurgitated as follows, I've been told that Followers would rather have some simple moves done well than lots of moves done badly.

Now, from this statement I would imply (perhaps incorrectly I'm only followed once.. and that was ..well.. odd to say the least) that there will come a time when you ,as a follower, won't want huge complicated moves done one after the other but will instead enjoy simpler dances where you have more scope for play, self expression and room to improve your technique.

I'm now in the situation where if I can get one move from every other class into my collection I'm happy. I'll never be a move monster but I HOPE that what moves I do have I (will eventually) lead well.

I suppose perhaps a similar approach for the followers view would be appropriate. As suggested above when you get a chance to do the complicated moves, then revel in them.. when you have to do the simpler moves use the thinking space they give you to concentrate on other aspects of your dancing. Where's your foot going? What poses are you pulling? is there a way to speed this up/ slow it down? What styling can you add to the move? etc etc.

Hope my inane ramblings make sense :wink:

Best regards
Pete

WittyBird

31st-January-2007, 11:57 AM

Well a dance with Fletch and Witty, at the same time huh - ok that would be interesting -i'd love to watch that!!! You may struggle a little with the difference in height, and their dance styles, for double trouble, especially as you said you tried on your birthday, and struggled then too!!

You mentioned the 'H' word :tears: You're the 2nd person today to mention that :tears:

Chef

31st-January-2007, 12:00 PM

I understand your frustration. Almost every dancer has gone through it at some stage. A lot of followers try to solve it by finding out where the good leads have gone when they get fed up with their origional venue (they have often left to find better followers however).

Leaders often have the same frustrations. They go to workshops and weekenders and try to learn new moves because they are so bored with the stuff they already know. Then they come back home and try to do this stuff at that they have just learnt and find it just impossible because their followers are floppy armed, fall of balalnce during turns and spins, or thier floorcraft and precision of placement means they are about to crash into other dancers. All this makes trying to lead the latest cool move they have learnt almost impossible - a consequence is that they never learn to lead the move.

Worst of all is when the follower decides that they recognise a move and does that one INSTEAD of the one that is being led. If the follower doesn't follow a mans lead with grisly accuracy then all they are training the leads to do is to lead - vaguely.

Now following a mans lead when he is doing it wrong is not always going to make you popular but the alternative is that the men will learn that it doesn't matter if they do not lead because the woman will do something - usually something simple - as they simmer about the lack of lead and the boring moves they keep doing over and over.

It is sad that most organisations do not teach basic dance skills (leading, following, how to spin, how to lead spins properly, floorcraft, precision of placement) but these things get in the way of fun and a reduction in fun means a reduction in revenue at the front door. However I do greatly applaud those organistaions that do try to do this. Without these basic dance skill there is a point that is quickly reached that people find difficult to go beyond. With these skills prgress is possible and quite satisfying.

Top tips. (time is short)

The great leads and follows at dances are an invaluable source of tips and advice - use them and don't get in a sulk if they suggest that there is something you could improve - it was the reason you asked in the first place. Hard on the ego but ultimately good for the soul.

Find a great leader and a slow to mid tempo song and ask if he will lead you while you have your eyes closed. With eyes closed you have no visual clues with which to anticipate a move and you concentrate on your balance and following your hand. A good leader will adjust the moves to the fact that you have your eyes closed and will handle your safety from the floor craft aspect.

LEADERS- Keep you darn hand still unless you are leading SOMETHING. If you bounce your hand up and down or waggle it side to side then either the follower will follow it faithfully and either jump up and down or will waggle side to side - or worst of all - IGNORE IT COMPLETELY. Leading and following is like a conversation. If your lead is shouting random noise your follower will go deaf

Go to every technique workshop you can manage. Use it to make a contact pool of local dancers who share your desire to improve. Try to set up a practice group where you all meet in a cheap village hall and practice what you learnt. The usual minimum ratio is about 5 hours of practice for each hour of lesson.

Make sure your own core skills are rock solid and reliable. The most common faults for followers that I find are.

The rockstep on 1,2 of the start of a move. Too much weight is put on the back foot (right for ladies, left for men - others may tell you different but this is what I am saying). On beat one compress your weight onto your rear foot but DO NOT let your heel touch the floor. This will stop you from letting your weight go backwards - having to move it forwards again slows you down. On beat two your weight comes back onto your forward foot. A tip I give to guys is to look around a dance floor and have a look at the wmen that lift their front foot during a rockstep - then avoid them like the plague - they are off balance at the start of every move and will spend the dance yanking your arm. Leaders and followers can both practice doing rocksteps at homewhere they don't have a partner to annoy.

Returns. When you led a return on a woman MOST women will travel to their left. This will alter the line of the dance and force the leader to change position and often he will have to abort what he was trying to set up and lead something simpler instead. This travelling to the left on returns is mentioned as a mistake on the Ceroc beginners DVD so as far as I am concered if you are doing it then you are still a beginner. Of course I have seen some shocking leading on returns as well. The lead should be bringing the hand to just over the womans head and stay there until she has competed her turn. If you lead here hand to the left side of the womans head she will have to move to her left in order to turn underneath it.

SPINS. Spins on the spot are just that. They are done on one spot, they do not travel, and the flow of movement is EVEN in speed from start to finish. Practice them at home in your hallway. If your spin travels you are bound to hit a wall. Keep practicing until you no longer aquire brusies. Travelling spins. The lead must lead the direction of travel first and THEN the spin. If the lead tries to bring the hand down too early you WILL take the woman off balance at a time when she is most vunerable.

Beowulf

31st-January-2007, 12:11 PM

You mentioned the 'H' word :tears: You're the 2nd person today to mention that :tears:

There was a comment said about one of my non dancing Muggle friends here in Aberdeen. I think it may be appropriate..

"She's like a real person.. only smaller"

to which my reply (in her defence) was

"She's not small.. she's concentrated" :hug:

Top Tips

:yeah: :respect:

MartinHarper

31st-January-2007, 12:37 PM

Dai

31st-January-2007, 12:37 PM

You mentioned the 'H' word :tears: You're the 2nd person today to mention that :tears:

You are a big personality all bundled up in a petite little package - isn't that what every woman wants to be in someway or another??:love:

LMC

31st-January-2007, 01:24 PM

I've posted about this before, but it's relevant again here.

I think all followers go through a "frustrated" stage, when they are experienced enough to get bored with repetitive leads, but not yet experienced enough to multi-task* because they are still having to concentrate on following. I certainly did - and Twirlie, suspect that you're at this stage too from your first post.

*by multi-tasking I mean thinking about styling aspects, playing/sabotaging - although not so much that you frustrate the lead - and avoid if the lead is very beginner, it will really put them off!

Followers don't need to know moves (except drops, aerials and some other advanced moves). But the classes are good practice for following - if you can follow the lead and not the teacher's instruction then you're doing well. Classes are also good for focussing on an aspect of your dancing - what are your feet/spare arm doing? How is your spinning? posture? balance? etc. Last, but certainly not least, the leads are not going to get better unless followers are occasionally generous enough to do a class to help them.

Don't feel bad about being frustrated. As your dancing improves, you'll find it easier to dance with a "boring" lead because it will give you the opportunity to focus on other areas of your following if you know that they are only going to repeat the 4 beginner's class moves over and over - as a starter: think about whether you are *really* 'waiting' for them to lead...

Sheepman

31st-January-2007, 01:59 PM

good stuff

good stuff

good stuff
:yeah: to loads of good stuff

if you can follow the lead and not the teacher's instruction then you're doing well. I wish more teachers would say to the followers "Don't watch me, watch your leader." Especially at intermediate classes. If you think the leader is getting it wrong, tell him so, rather than have a wrestling match during the move. More often that not, he'll suspect he is wrong anyway, and will be glad of any help.

And the bad news is, the highs do get less frequent :tears:
Just with most things in life, as you become more experienced you need more extremes to get the same rush, whether it is down to frustration about your own abilities, or your partners', or just that you've done it all before. Perhaps that's the reason why the majority of people reach a certain level, and drift off the scene. But if that sounds too gloomy, don't worry, I know that it's possible to go out and have a great night's dancing in 20 years time!

Greg

Freya

31st-January-2007, 02:50 PM

:yeah: to what greg said lots of good stuff been said on the thread!

And the bad news is, the highs do get less frequent :tears: But if that sounds too gloomy, don't worry, I know that it's possible to go out and have a great night's dancing in 20 years time!
You oldie you! :wink: But I have some good news those new beginners that are struggling with the moves and aren't challanging you will improve and after a while you'll find that you have great dances with them! People progress at different speeds!

Unfortunately I have more bad news for you...The frustration your feeling continues as you continue to improve. I've going through a patch just now where I'm frustrated with my following. I find my dancing goes in peaks and troughs! after a few bad weeks where I felt everything was going wrong and no matter how hard I tried to focus on certain aspects of my dancing nothing happened! The advice given to me....Stop trying too hard and to pick one thing and focus on that! And it's worked! I'm back to enjoying my dancing although I feel like I'm not improving at the moment I have hope that one day it'll all click into place!

As others have said use the regulars at your venue and your friends to try things out! Closing your eyes really helps to stop anticipation (my bigest problem...I blame too much thinking!;) Ask your teachers more experienced dancers! And take time over your technique! After taking part in classes I try not to remember the moves although they should be there in muscle memory by the end of the class or freestyle!

Little Monkey

31st-January-2007, 02:56 PM

I wish more teachers would say to the followers "Don't watch me, watch your leader." Especially at intermediate classes.

I danced as a lead in last Wednesday's class, as there was a lack of men. I got several followers who 'knew the moves', and I could quite easily have just stood there, relaxing my arms and letting the followers lead themselves. However, I tried to gently tell them to let me lead them. One woman just wouldn't take the hint, and literally lifted my arm when she wanted to do a turn, regardles of me leading it or not...... Some of these women dance like clockwork, just going through the motions, not feeling the lead at all. In freestyle they're very often horrible to dance with, as they'll anticipate moves all the time.

And the bad news is, the highs do get less frequent :tears:
Just with most things in life, as you become more experienced you need more extremes to get the same rush, whether it is down to frustration about your own abilities, or your partners', or just that you've done it all before. Perhaps that's the reason why the majority of people reach a certain level, and drift off the scene. But if that sounds too gloomy, don't worry, I know that it's possible to go out and have a great night's dancing in 20 years time!

Greg

:yeah:
It does get more difficult to get that 'buzz' out of dancing when you've danced a while, but when you do it makes it all worth it!

It's easy to get frustrated when you're dancing with beginners and intermediates who just 'go through the motions', and don't actually listen to (or use) the music at all. It's much more fun and more challenging dancing with better dancers, who'll play with the music, use more intricate footwork and really make you work hard to keep up. But don't give up! Most of us still have LOTS to learn, and can still improve our dancing.

There's a lot of good tips in this thread about working on your own following, even when dancing with less experienced dancers. Work on your connection, your ability to dance smoothly even if the lead has bouncy hands (bloody hard work!), footwork, and subtly playing with the music without disturbing the lead. And most importantly - let the lead lead. Don't take over, even if he/she is vague. If you can't feel the lead, don't attempt to do something/backlead. As a tango teacher once said (as a compliment to the follower): Look how she waits!:cool:

Most importantly - dance with as many different people as possible - it'll really improve your following skills, as everyone's got different styles!

Good luck, and enjoy dancing!

PS - if you really want to give your dancing a 'boost', go to a weekender!

Twirly

31st-January-2007, 03:12 PM

Work on your connection,

I see this a lot on here - whilst I think I know what it means, how do you work on it? Surely it's a two way street?

TheTramp

31st-January-2007, 03:22 PM

I got several followers who 'knew the moves', and I could quite easily have just stood there, relaxing my arms and letting the followers lead themselves. However, I tried to gently tell them to let me lead them. One woman just wouldn't take the hint, and literally lifted my arm when she wanted to do a turn, regardles of me leading it or not......

I quite often tell the girls that they should only move when led in the class. And if the guy does nothing, then they shouldn't move.

Of course, it's not that easy to do nothing, when the teacher is calling out the move part by part.

I do agree with you though :D

stewart38

31st-January-2007, 03:23 PM

I vaguely remember another thread about this? someone help please?

You learn the moves
You learn how to do the moves
You then anticipate the moves
You then backlead the moves
You then forget everything you've learnt and dance
You dance and then sabotage and play

Sorry if thats brief but hey its late

I think for everyone its different for me it

I learn the moves
I forget the moves
I learn the moves
I forget the moves
I learn the moves
I …

etc :sad:

MartinHarper

31st-January-2007, 03:27 PM

I see this a lot on here - whilst I think I know what it means, how do you work on it? Surely it's a two way street?

Yes and no. Physical connection is a follower-biased skill. From a leading perspective, all I have to do is apply forces. It's pretty easy. If I know how to push a shopping trolley or open a door, or how to lean on a wall, I know how to have physical connection as a leader.
The following perspective is harder. To have good follow physical connection, I need to learn how to be a door, a trolley, or a wall. This is non-trivial stuff. Fortunately, because the leading side of it is so easy, it's possible to practice it in regular dancing with regular leaders.
(IMO, etc, etc)

tsh

31st-January-2007, 03:50 PM

One woman just wouldn't take the hint, and literally lifted my arm when she wanted to do a turn, regardles of me leading it or not...... Some of these women dance like clockwork, just going through the motions, not feeling the lead at all. In freestyle they're very often horrible to dance with, as they'll anticipate moves all the time.

I'm so tempted to print this post out (all of it) and post it up at a few venues. It's so spot on!

David Bailey

31st-January-2007, 03:50 PM

*by multi-tasking I mean thinking about styling aspects, playing/sabotaging
I swear to God, if I see one description of sabotage as an essential part of Advanced Dancerdom, I'll hit that big red neg rep button... :rolleyes:

(I agree with all the other stuff tho :) )

Twirlie Bird

31st-January-2007, 03:56 PM

I have a question, TwirlyBird. Which is more important to you?
1. Finding ways to improve yourself when dancing with random intermediates.
2. Finding ways to have more fun when dancing with random intermediates.

To me they're different (related) goals, so you might get different advice depending on what matters to you more.

I have thought about this for a while. Thanks for the question and making me think. My initial answer was it's probably number 1. At the moment my aim is to improve. I want to be the best dancer that I can be. I have so much enthusiasm at the moment and I just want to learn, learn, learn. Of course I do want to have fun. Dancing is fun and so damn addictive. :grin:

Then I started thinking about the 'random intermediates' part of the question. The first time I dance with somebody new I concentrate about doing the best I can. When the dance finishes my initial thought is how much fun was that and not how many varied moves did they do and how could I improve? So now I'm not really sure what the answer to your question is. :confused:

Twirlie Bird

31st-January-2007, 04:15 PM

The following perspective is harder. To have good follow physical connection, I need to learn how to be a door, a trolley, or a wall. This is non-trivial stuff. Fortunately, because the leading side of it is so easy, it's possible to practice it in regular dancing with regular leaders.
(IMO, etc, etc)

In my experience I have only heard connection and tension mentioned in class a couple of times. It wasn't even something I knew existed at first. It seems strange that something so vital to dancing well is discussed so little. :confused:

Ghost

31st-January-2007, 04:21 PM

I swear to God, if I see one description of sabotage as an essential part of Advanced Dancerdom, I'll hit that big red neg rep button... :rolleyes:

You haven't read this thread (http://www.mjda.org/forum/showthread.php?t=254&page=2) at the MJDA Forum then? :whistle: (No neg rep there though :na: )

However , the collected wisdom I received can be boiled down, condensed and regurgitated as follows, I've been told that Followers would rather have some simple moves done well than lots of moves done badly.

Now, from this statement I would imply (perhaps incorrectly I'm only followed once.. and that was ..well.. odd to say the least) that there will come a time when you ,as a follower, won't want huge complicated moves done one after the other but will instead enjoy simpler dances where you have more scope for play, self expression and room to improve your technique.

Used to think the same. Then started this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10516) because I got suspicious. Could be Twirly Bird is just one of those follows who likes a mixture of simple, challenging, and complicated moves.

killingtime

31st-January-2007, 04:24 PM

As others have stated a lot of good stuff has been posted here so I don't have much to add but I'll try.

Followers are in fact the manequins that are required by leaders to learn the moves taught during classes.
Although beginner followers believe they need to LEARN moves this is never challenged by teachers and is actually a hindrance to leaders learning to lead IMHO

Yes. I was asked if I'd help out in a moves workshop and I was surprised that there were more followers than leaders. Maybe stating that women don't really need to attend classes would do just that. A shortage of women in classes might reduce the number of guys going. Saying that our teacher on a Tuesday (used to at least... when I arrived for the beginning of the class) did a bit on spinning etc which was straight up beneficial for followers.

Leaders actually need followers who do not anticipate or backlead during classes so they can learn to properly LEAD the moves being taught.

Yeah, I'm sure I've stated this before but when I started I'd find some followers who were considered "good" followers not that enjoyable to dance with at all. Later on I realised that it was because they weren't anticipating or backleading. When I wasn't leading the move correctly they'd follow what was lead rather than their guess at what was intended. It seemed less enjoyable at the time for me but ultimately I ended up loving dancing with these ladies because they don't backlead.

Of course I fully get the many reasons why women backlead. Standing doing nothing doesn't make for an enjoyable dance for either partner and it's better, in the short term, to get a dance than to spend 4 minutes struggling to do anything.

SPINS. Spins on the spot are just that. They are done on one spot, they do not travel, and the flow of movement is EVEN in speed from start to finish.

Good post, Chef, though moves like the catapult are detrimental to this learning as we are leading a travelling spin in it (which is why Marc talked about doing this slotted instead so the woman isn't being intentionally knocked off balance).

Rachel

31st-January-2007, 05:21 PM

Good post, Chef, though moves like the catapult are detrimental to this learning as we are leading a travelling spin in it (which is why Marc talked about doing this slotted instead so the woman isn't being intentionally knocked off balance).I've enjoyed reading this thread but wasn't planning on posting as I didn't have much more to add to what others have said.

However, I do disagree slightly with the above quote. I think that a spin after a catapult should still be done on the spot, not travelling. Although the lady should step onto the spot first (hence the travelling part) before doing the spin.

If we're talking slotted dancing, this slot would have been vacated by the leader, so that she can easily step forward and get to the spinning spot. This, I guess, is what Marc was talking about.

Trying to spin and travel at the same time is pretty much impossible (I think?) unless you're doing ballet chaines.

Can I suggest maybe take the opportunity to improve how you are dancing within the dance, if say you are dancing with someone you can follow easily.... I always try to think about my posture, hands, smoothness, connection and adding to the dance without interfering with the guys/girls lead.

I believe you can always improve your dance as the follow, no matter how simple it may seem. You can also make it more interesting too, without a doubt, but that is a skill that comes over time....:)

AmesThis post, I think, is just perfect, and I completely agree. You can learn to make a dance with almost any partner interesting, no matter how new your partner. My problem is how to make a dance interesting when I find the music boooooring ...

Rachel

killingtime

31st-January-2007, 05:36 PM

However, I do disagree slightly with the above quote. I think that a spin after a catapult should still be done on the spot, not travelling. Although the lady should step onto the spot first (hence the travelling part) before doing the spin.

Gosh. It's dreadful but I can't remember the last time I was at a class that covered the basic catapult. Will have to attend again. Looked a bit online and found:

Catapult... 6 beats and a return (RH) 1.SB 2.turn partner acw under R arm as you SI side to side 3.change places,man goes forward and partner goes back taking man's spare LH and lean away from each other 4.bring partner into your L side, and let go w/RH 5.spin partner c/w w/LH letting go 6.SB as you catch 7.SI to RT 8.SB

http://www.cerocgroove.co.uk/ceroc_beginners_moves.tpl]Ceroc Beginner Moves

Which skips over where the spin actually occurs. I'm pretty sure when I'm not doing it Marc's way I do lead the woman forward and then spin her. So yeah maybe my point was silly :blush:.

If we're talking slotted dancing, this slot would have been vacated by the leader, so that she can easily step forward and get to the spinning spot. This, I guess, is what Marc was talking about.

Yup. The way Marc showed it eliminated the problem of drawing the woman in from the left while bringer her into a spin (or spinner her in, or her just spinning and you ending up dancing in circles).

MartinHarper

31st-January-2007, 05:41 PM

Trying to spin and travel at the same time is pretty much impossible (I think?) unless you're doing ballet chaines.

Any sort of stepped turn can travel. In Lindy I've heard stepped turns for followers recommended precisely because they can travel if that's what the lead is asking for.

Rachel

31st-January-2007, 05:45 PM

Any sort of stepped turn can travel. In Lindy I've heard stepped turns for followers recommended precisely because they can travel if that's what the lead is asking for.Oh yes, a stepped turn can, of course, travel. I was just thinking of spins (i.e. one-footed) and would be seriously impressed if I saw someone travelling while doing that!
R.

Chef

31st-January-2007, 05:48 PM

I see this a lot on here - whilst I think I know what it means, how do you work on it? Surely it's a two way street?

Working on connection.

Phew – Big subject and difficult to know where to begin. To make a start try this.

Use a mans belt (or if you know your partner very well – cling film) to bind the followers elbows to the side of her ribs. This will achieve the following – she will not be able to let her elbows go forward or backwards by more than an inch or so. Due to her elbows being trapped in this position she will not be able to allow her hand to go across her bodies centre line or way from her body by more than 30 degrees before she has to move her body to follow her hand. The whole point of this strange trapping of elbows is that when you lead a followers hand you want the whole of the woman to move – not just the hand. Connection is about the near instantaneous transmission of lead from the leaders hand to followers body. If the man provides a vague or indefinite lead then the woman has nothing to follow and has to at best guess what he wants. If there is a disconnect between the womans hand and the womans body then there is no way that the mans lead, given at the womans hand, can have any influence over her body. You are them merely moving in close proximity with each other other instead of dancing TOGETHER.

Once you have got the belt or cling film thing sorted out take a double handed hold so that the womans forearms are horizontal. The mans hand should have the inside of all his fingers facing himself and the woman hooks her fingers over the mans hand so that her knuckles are over the mans index finger. Very important that her wrist is slightly lower than her knuckles.

Controlling the womans weighted foot.

In your practice position both people close their eyes and the man attempts to lead to woman to change her weight between one foot and the other. This is done by the leader moving BOTH hands to one side (horizontally – do not lift one hand) and keep that lead there until he FEELS the woman move her weight. Don’t do anything sudden. Trying to catch your follower out with sudden jerky changes of weight will just annoy her. Let her weight arrive before you try to lead the weight back the other way. Practice until your lead is smooth, the transitions are gentle and the follower feels as if she is part of your own body.

Leading the woman to step forward and back

Before you can lead a woman to make a step you must lead her to take her weight off of one foot FIRST. Then and only then can you lead to woman to take a forward step by leading with both hands EQUALLY. If you don’t provide an equal lead then the womans body will twist as she takes her step. In extreme cases she will twist so much that her forward step will be onto your foot (and it serves you right). To lead her to take a backward step you lead her weight change as before and then you apply pressure with the backs of the leaders fingers into the palms of the followers hands (since her wrist is slightly lower than her knuckles her hand will rise to allow this contact with her palm). You should know be in a position to decide (by your leading and her following of weight change) which foot the follower will step on and you can also lead the direction of the step she will then take.

To get her to take multiple steps you only have to lead the next weight change and then the next step. After a while all these different parts of the led become smooth and seamless.

Leading a change of direction.

In order to lead a change of direction you must START slowing the womans motion BEFORE you lead her to change direction. Think about how you would start walking yourself and notice that you move your weight forward to start yourself walking (the faster you want to walk the more you pitch your weight forwards when you start). When you want to slow to a stop you start bringing your weight backwards before you manage to stop. This is what you are leading the woman to do.

Leading a side step.

Lead the woman to take her weight off of the foot that you want her to step with and then move both hand EQUALLY in the direction of her unweighted foot. It is usual to step with her at this point but it is not absolutely needed. In the strictest sense – because her eyes are closed she is following your hands – not your body. It is possible to be doing something else with your body while your hands are leading something different.

Leading a twist.

If you imagine that your followers hands are resting on a circular hula hoop that goes around the centre of their body then to lead a twist you only have to move her hands around that hoop and her body will respond by moving in a twist. If you lead her hands to one side then she will step to that side (if she has an unweighted foot on that side). You can only lead her to make that twist if her hands are lead around that imaginary circle that goes around her central axis.

You can combine all these leading and following elements. You could lead her to unweight one foot, then twist, then walk forward. Practice all the individual elements of lead and follow slowly and calmly so that you know you are leading each element smoothly and cleanly, then experiment with the ways that they can be combined making the transitions between element smooth.

Followers – You will have learnt that when the leader leads you hand he wants your whole body to move, not just your hand. You will have learnt that unless you arm has muscle tone (not an overpowering Vulcan death grip) the connection is lost and there is no transmission of lead from your hand to your body.

FINAL THING

Provide the lead to the woman, wait for her to start moving, THEN the leader moves to catch the follower up.

Let her out of the cling film before you go your separate ways.

Daisy Chain

31st-January-2007, 05:56 PM

I've posted about this before, but it's relevant again here.

I think all followers go through a "frustrated" stage, when they are experienced enough to get bored with repetitive leads,

There is one man in the NW who is the most boring dance leader ever. He seems fine during the intermediate lesson and appears to master the 4 moves each week. But, if ever I get him for the last 2 times through into freestyle my little heart (yes, I do have one) sinks.

Almost immediately, his repertoire degenerates into endless First Moves. If his follower is really lucky, he will occasionally slip in an extra twirl on the return.

I discovered that if you talk to him, he can't even keep the First Moves going and it all falls apart. So, if ever I am with him, I talk as much as possible - how else can I keep myself entertained for 3 mins?

Luckily, he never asks me to dance in freestyle - I expect he finds me boring too!

Daisy

(An Evil Little Flower)

Twirlie Bird

31st-January-2007, 06:13 PM

I discovered that if you talk to him, he can't even keep the First Moves going and it all falls apart.

I find that if I make eye contact with guys they get flustered. A number of men have said to me that they forget all the moves when they dance with me! Aaarrggghhhhhh :what:

Twirly

31st-January-2007, 06:32 PM

Working on connection.

Phew – Big subject and difficult to know where to begin. To make a start try this.
*snip lots of good stuff*

Let her out of the cling film before you go your separate ways.

Wow – Chef, thanks :respect: that must’ve taken ages. Sorry I can’t rep you again. Beo did you get all that?

Checklist for Beach Ballroom:
Dress: check
Dance shoes x2: check
Blindfold: check
Clingfilm: check

(Do they allow clingfilm in hand luggage?!:confused: )

I find that if I make eye contact with guys they get flustered. A number of men have said to me that they forget all the moves when they dance with me! Aaarrggghhhhhh :what:

I’ve had that… someone who’s floorcraft is normally pretty good had a collision at Hammersmith whilst dancing with me and actually said that he’d been too busy looking at me! :blush:

TheTramp

31st-January-2007, 06:38 PM

Gosh. It's dreadful but I can't remember the last time I was at a class that covered the basic catapult. Will have to attend again.

It's in Routines 6 and 12. Which are next Monday, and next Thursday :)

LMC

31st-January-2007, 06:53 PM

I swear to God, if I see one description of sabotage as an essential part of Advanced Dancerdom, I'll hit that big red neg rep button... :rolleyes:
Sabotage (in my opinion, defined as doing something that the lead doesn't expect, as opposed to hijacking, which is taking over the lead) only counts as a part of Advanced Dancerdom if used appropriately (which I kinda forgot to emphasise in my original post, although I did say don't do it to beginner leads). It takes experience and a certain ability to be able to play/sabotage appropriately. Therefore, it is an element of Advanced Dancerdom. So there.

Appropriately includes not sabotaging beginner leads or leads who are obviously determined control freaks or GOM unless you ask them first :whistle:

However, I also forgot to say that sabotage/playing is optional. I suppose. It's too easy to look like a lemon when you're not in a playing mood (or at least don't want to express yourself with *that* lead) - and the lead seems to expect you to - or worse, tells you to :( :what:

Oh, catapault - agree with what Rachel said, but would just like to emphasise that the lead should get out of the way (by stepping back) as s/he leads the follower forward. If the lead just stands there, then it is very difficult to take a giant step on one beat then spin on balance, without travelling, on the next. (There is a whole thread on the catapault and I'm going to be immodest and link straight to my post on it here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=184942&postcount=66). EDIT: Actually, reading down that thread, Stuart's description (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=185087&postcount=78) is better :nice: :worthy: )

killingtime

31st-January-2007, 07:03 PM

It's in Routines 6 and 12. Which are next Monday, and next Thursday :)

Kick ass. However do you know if it is at the end of the routine on Thursday... I'm not sure I want to go for the whole class :rolleyes:.

TheTramp

31st-January-2007, 07:24 PM

Kick ass. However do you know if it is at the end of the routine on Thursday... I'm not sure I want to go for the whole class :rolleyes:.

It just so happens that it's the last move! :yum:

Jhutch

1st-February-2007, 12:59 AM

Yeah, I'm sure I've stated this before but when I started I'd find some followers who were considered "good" followers not that enjoyable to dance with at all. Later on I realised that it was because they weren't anticipating or backleading. When I wasn't leading the move correctly they'd follow what was lead rather than their guess at what was intended.

:yeah:

When i first started there were several occasions when i thought that women were beginners and ended up just going through the beginner routine because they seemed to be having trouble following much else. It was then to my surprise to see them go and dance with someone else and be doing all kinds of stuff:confused: I think this was due to them following what was being led rather than trying to help me out.

MartinHarper

1st-February-2007, 01:17 AM

It's too easy to look like a lemon when you're not in a playing mood ... and the lead seems to expect you to

I know someone who responds to that thing us guys do of placing girl in free space and watching her expectantly... by placing a hand on her hips and watching back in exactly the same way.

It's funny.

Beowulf

1st-February-2007, 09:55 AM

Beo did you get all that?

Blindfold: check
Clingfilm: check

:what: :really:

This thread has taken a kinky turn if you ask me.. not that I'm complaining mind you :whistle: :innocent:

Chef.. Interesting Post. I'll have to try that with Twirly when she's up.. http://www.skyfall.co.uk/forum/norty.gif

Lory

1st-February-2007, 10:14 AM

Unfortunately, you can't gain experience in a hurry and even when you've taken onboard every good bit of advice that's been given on this thread, (well done guys! :worthy: ) you'll still find some dancers/dances just don't do it for you. :sad:

The advice given about becoming a good follow, not anticipating, good frame, practising with your eyes closed etc. is all absolutely correct BUT obviously, it only works, 'IF' you get a good lead but the trouble is, lots of leads give mixed signals (his body says one thing, while his hand's leading another:confused: ) and I'd say, from a slightly more experienced POV, that the alignment of the mans body, is possibly just as important as the hand but is much harder to teach :cool: (I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong but I don't think i've ever heard it mentioned in a Ceroc class? Where as in ballroom, AT and WCS its a major element)

A lot of experienced follows, can follow a good lead without any physical touching at all, which is also a good exercise and can be great fun too! :D :cheers:

Twirlie Bird

1st-February-2007, 11:10 AM

A lot of experienced follows, can follow a good lead without any physical touching at all, which is also a good exercise and can be great fun too! :D :cheers:

That would be awesome to watch :nice:

TheTramp

1st-February-2007, 11:21 AM

That would be awesome to watch :nice:

The best person I know at doing this is Tiggerbabe! Had an entire dance, and I don't think that we 'messed up' once! :worthy:

David Bailey

1st-February-2007, 11:42 AM

Sabotage (in my opinion, defined as doing something that the lead doesn't expect, as opposed to hijacking, which is taking over the lead) only counts as a part of Advanced Dancerdom if used appropriately (which I kinda forgot to emphasise in my original post, although I did say don't do it to beginner leads). It takes experience and a certain ability to be able to play/sabotage appropriately. Therefore, it is an element of Advanced Dancerdom. So there.
Surely, "sabotage" is wrecking a move? By definition?

I know one person, lovely follow, who was most miffed at being complimented on her "sabotage", when all she'd done was to slow a return down over two beats. To me, that's not sabotage, that's normal interpretation.

Appropriately includes not sabotaging beginner leads or leads who are obviously determined control freaks or GOM unless you ask them first :whistle:
Or leads who understand the difference between interpretation, improvisation, and sabotage.

Sabotage is a bad thing. Don't do it.

Improvisation and interpretation is a good thing.

Hijacking... well, if done really well, I can live with it, despite being a crazy control freak - but I think there are only about 3-4 followers in the whole of the London MJ scene who can do it really well.

MartinHarper

1st-February-2007, 11:48 AM

To me, that's not sabotage, that's normal interpretation.

So...

* Disconnected: embellishments that, if I shut my eyes, I wouldn't be able to feel. Eg, spare leg, spare arms, etc.
* Connected: embellishments that I can feel, but I don't need to pay attention to. Eg, a ronde in a first move twist out.
* Requests: embellishments that ask for some response from me, so I should pay attention, but won't end in disaster if I don't respond quickly enough. Eg: asking for some counterbalance in open position, asking to extend a turn by a couple of beats.
* Demands: embellishments that demand or force a response from me, lest the dance break down. Eg: backleading a drop, breaking connection to do a shine, First Move Resistor, The Tart.

So would you regard "demands" as "sabotage", and everything else as "improvisation and interpretation"?

DavidJames in "not a control freak" shocker. You heard it here first.

Beowulf

1st-February-2007, 11:56 AM

A lot of experienced follows, can follow a good lead without any physical touching at all, which is also a good exercise and can be great fun too! :D :cheers:

That would be awesome to watch :nice:

The best person I know at doing this is Tiggerbabe! Had an entire dance, and I don't think that we 'messed up' once! :worthy:

:confused: Am still trying to get my head round this one? I can't understand how this is even possible? what do you verbally speak the moves to the person? I can't figure out how you can ask someone to step back without giving them the hand signal.

And some moves require blocking.. how can you block someone from spinning if you don't actually block them? sounds very odd to me.

Am obviously not at "that level" yet.

StokeBloke

1st-February-2007, 12:14 PM

Am obviously not at "that level" yet.
Don't dance, be the dance grasshopper :D

Lory

1st-February-2007, 12:42 PM

I can't figure out how you can ask someone to step back without giving them the hand signal.

Its all about reading the body language and alignment and looking at the angle and the speed that the lead is approaching you from

Imagining there are invisible force fields around you...

I'm just making this bit up, but imagine you and your partner both holding large magnets in your hards, with opposing forces towards eachother, the follow tries to maintain a constant and smooth feeling of opposing energy.. get the picture?

under par

1st-February-2007, 01:16 PM

Imagining there are invisible force fields around you...

I'm just making this bit up, but imagine you and your partner both holding large magnets in your hards, with opposing forces towards eachother, the follow tries to maintain a constant and smooth feeling of opposing energy.. get the picture?

Oooh yeah!! :yeah: got the picture!! :clap: A wonderful description... must try to paint it for real at SP in the blues room :cheers: :yeah: :yeah:

David Bailey

1st-February-2007, 01:17 PM

So would you regard "demands" as "sabotage", and everything else as "improvisation and interpretation"?
Nope - none of them are sabotage to my mind, and none of them are Evil. It's a good set of definitions in fact.

The "demands" one is kind of like "hijacking", I'd say, although the word means different things to different people.

To your list, I'd add a fifth category:
* Sabotage: moves that force the transfer of lead without volition or consent, breaking that portion of the dance. E.g. forcing a man spin.

DavidJames in "not a control freak" shocker. You heard it here first.
It's not yet a crime to avoid too much improvisation, and I'm not the only one who doesn't like it:

I, for one, do not enjoy improvising and frequently get annoyed with guys who expect me to improvise at the drop of a hat, ie. without a proper lead or notice.

To me, improvisation is like drops or aerials - I'm not good at them, I'll probably never be good at them, so I don't do them. They're not mandatory, and neither are they an essential part of Good Dancing technique (compared to, say, connection or balance) - but too many people, especially new intermediates, think that they're the Bees Knees. They're not, they're an optional extra.

Technique is the Bees Knees.

David Bailey

1st-February-2007, 01:22 PM

:confused: Am still trying to get my head round this one? I can't understand how this is even possible? what do you verbally speak the moves to the person?
:eek: No!

Typically, whenever I do this - and yes, it's a great exercise to work on, I do it in AT a lot - I generally lead the moves that are most leadable that way - Manhattans, turns, manspins, walkarounds, that sort of thing.

I can't figure out how you can ask someone to step back without giving them the hand signal.
Step forward - they'll back off, believe me, especially from me :devil:

And some moves require blocking.. how can you block someone from spinning if you don't actually block them? sounds very odd to me.
Some things, like spins, are more tricky. But if you think about it. the amount of force you should be applying to the lady to spin her is miniscule (David Franklin calculated it somewhere I think) - 99% of the effort should always be done by the lady. So technically, all you're doing with a non-touching lead is removing that 1% of extra force.

Am obviously not at "that level" yet.
Me neither - but it's a very good exercise to try to get there.

LMC

1st-February-2007, 01:24 PM

Although my definitions differ from DJ's and MH's (hmmm... am I grown up enough to say "I was wrong"? Nah - different words, same principles) I don't consider myself advanced enough to sabotage appropriately or even to improvise very much. I might slow down a return occasionally - and would, actually, call that sabotage, because I'm 'stopping' the lead from continuing to lead while I wiggle. Hijacking the lead from a female lead or a male who you know likes following is a different matter :devil: - and very fun :D

MartinHarper

1st-February-2007, 01:30 PM

I can't figure out how you can ask someone to step back without giving them the hand signal.

Lead moves his hands pretty much as normal, but more expressively. Follow follows partly by watching the lead's hands, partly from regular visual cues.

When I do this I still allow myself to use a hand on my partner's back, where appropriate, as she doesn't have eyes in the back of her head.

If you think about it. the amount of force you should be applying to the lady to spin her is miniscule (David Franklin calculated it somewhere I think) - 99% of the effort should always be done by the lady.

As I recall, we established that the lady does 99% of the effort for linear motion, but it's closer to 50-50 for rotational motion.

Beowulf

1st-February-2007, 01:32 PM

Imagining there are invisible force fields around you...

"Captain.. Klingons off the starboard bow!"
"Scotty... more power to the feet.. we need to spin"
"Captain.. that move is illogical!"
"Dammit Pete, I'm a ceroc teacher not a doctor"
"Sulu.. lay in a course for right hand.. prepare for Yoyo... engage!"

Sorry.. it's the geek in me.

t's a very good exercise to try to get there.

Yes, I Think I understand now. Lory's magnets comment was very informative and you've explained it to me better too. I'll have to try it..

"Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try" :wink: :blush:

David Bailey

1st-February-2007, 01:35 PM

I might slow down a return occasionally - and would, actually, call that sabotage, because I'm 'stopping' the lead from continuing to lead while I wiggle.
Funny, I'd call that "interpretation", not "sabotage" - you're certainly not stopping the lead, you're just interpreting (hopefully to the music). It should add to the dance, not "sabotage" it.

Hmmm, is there maybe some external definition of dance terminology we could use here?

DavidB would call that "embellishment" I assume from this post:

Improvisation is the lady taking advantage of an invitational lead.
Embellishment is the lady adding something extra whilst still following the lead.
Sabotage is the lady deliberately not following an indication lead.

I like it when the lady improvises or embellishes a lead. Sabotage is a bit different.
1st time :wink:
2nd time :really:
3rd time :sick:
4th time :angry:
I like when a lady slows a return down, I'm certainly not in a big rush to get anywhere.

Although I don't like it if I lead a slow return, and the lady ignores that invitational lead and does a Ceroc-speed return instead. But usually that's because she's not seen the "slow down" part of lead, rather than making a conscious decision to speed things up.

David Bailey

1st-February-2007, 01:37 PM

As I recall, we established that the lady does 99% of the effort for linear motion, but it's closer to 50-50 for rotational motion.
Really? Even leading turns? I find that difficult to believe... got a link?

MartinHarper

1st-February-2007, 01:41 PM

Really? Even leading turns? I find that difficult to believe... got a link?
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8652
Last post (mine).
"we" may have been a stretch...

David Bailey

1st-February-2007, 01:49 PM

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8652
Last post (mine).
"we" may have been a stretch...
I think you just killed the thread is all - death by mathematics :eek: :na:

Anyway, there's no way I give half the energy of a spin to a lady when leading it - maybe that means I'm a lazy lead, of course...

I'm sure I can lead a spin without touching, I'll have to try it sometime, next time I go to a MJ venue.

Genie

1st-February-2007, 02:08 PM

I think you just killed the thread is all - death by mathematics :eek: :na:

No kidding! :what:

Anyway, there's no way I give half the energy of a spin to a lady when leading it - maybe that means I'm a lazy lead, of course...

I actually appreciate it when a lead gives me some energy as he spins me. Because a follow gets spun quite a lot during the average dance, it can get a little tiring to have to do all the work yourself. One or two leads give you that little bit of energy and it makes all the difference.

Sure, I could go through the dance doing all the moves and spins entirely on my own energy while he just stands there (and there are a few of those around, I'll tell you now :D) but it's the ones who are putting as much energy and effort into the dance as I am that I really love to dance with.

MartinHarper

1st-February-2007, 02:22 PM

I'm sure I can lead a spin without touching, I'll have to try it sometime, next time I go to a MJ venue.

So have I. Just because something is possible, doesn't mean that it's mandatory.

Gadget

1st-February-2007, 02:22 PM

... but it's the ones who are putting as much energy and effort into the dance as I am that I really love to dance with.damn... need to slow down then. :wink:

On topic.. {Selfless plug} have a look at some of the links on my syg - the "leading" one also has stuff about following.

The main objective of the follower is to maintain the same distance and orientation to the lead. In the magnet anology, the follower is providing the 'magnetic force' to do this. The lead uses this resistance to manipulate the follower; the lead shouldn't really have to move the follower - just put themselves in a position where the follower has to move to re-orientate.

{That's how I try to work it anyway... seems to work for me :D}

Lory

1st-February-2007, 02:53 PM

MartinHarper

1st-February-2007, 02:55 PM

... contra-body check position ...

You're going to have to explain this one for me in simple words.

David Bailey

1st-February-2007, 03:07 PM

I actually appreciate it when a lead gives me some energy as he spins me. Because a follow gets spun quite a lot during the average dance, it can get a little tiring to have to do all the work yourself. One or two leads give you that little bit of energy and it makes all the difference.
I suspect (very strongly suspect) that any "energy" (force) the leader can provide with his arms will be trivial compared to the force provided by the follower's feet.

The main help that a leader provides is in setting up the position for a spin, and providing some balancing assistance where required.

The "setting up the position for a spin" bit is about technique and positioning.

And the better a follower gets, the less help they lead in balancing. I can lead ochos and giros without touching my partner - and I know for a fact that these require far more balance than a simple spin.

As a follower, if you can spin by yourself without a leader's assistance, imagine how good you can be with that assistance. Training and practice should be harder than social dancing - you're trying to stretch yourself after all.

I'm not saying non-touching leading is pleasant to look at - it looks a bit naff sometimes IMO, all that handwaving and stuff. But it's a very good exercise in leading technique.

Oh, and Real Dancers Don't Spin :devil: