PDA

View Full Version : What Ceroc does badly....



David Bailey
29th-January-2007, 12:36 PM
In balance to the "What Ceroc does well... (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11338)" thread, I'd like to use this thread to constructively criticize Ceroc practices - basically, things which are done better by other dance organisations / teachers, and which Ceroc could learn from (again, not just other MJ-ers).

Again, I'll kick off with a couple:

Slow dance development
I think it's very clear that Modern Jive as a dance taught at Ceroc has progressed more slowly over the past 10 years than dances such as salsa or AT - the only real change has been in the moves being taught. There's been little development of technique as far as I can tell, for example.
<p>
No assessment culture
There's very little assessment / criticism given by teachers, at an individual level - groups are too large and too "wholesale" for this to happen, and the teachers are physically a long way away from their pupils, so it's difficult to spot individual problems anyway. Yes, taxi dancers can do this in review classes, but they're not CTA-trained teachers.


Next?

Trouble
29th-January-2007, 12:37 PM
let me explain what they do not do and i find this very unhelpful.

Cheshunt has just started a new class run by Gordan and Sally via Adam Natheson.

I am a taxi dancer and on the first wednesday, they offered a bargain of all newbies £1 entry fee. The second week however, for them to continue they have to pay the full wack. I find this quite unreal. We are trying to attract new people to venues and at least get them to quite a confident level to return week after week.

When i started i joined a Jive club. They did an offer of the first six weeks at reduced rates, cant remember what they were but thats why i went back because it was hardly costing my anything and wanted to keep giving it a go.

Why is this? - i can not understand it at all.

David Bailey
29th-January-2007, 12:40 PM
let me explain what they do not do and i find this very unhelpful..
I moved this post to here for obvious reasons :)

Cruella
29th-January-2007, 12:41 PM
I'm having Deja-vu!
Now this post makes no sense! (No change there then)

StokeBloke
29th-January-2007, 01:59 PM
Just a personal gripe, but why do lots of intermediate classes start with the teacher saying "draw a semi-circle to the left and step back"? Is the ability to do this not a prerequisite for being in the intermediate class to start with :rolleyes:

I also find the intermediate routines a blessing and a curse. I understand that you can only do so much in 30 minutes. We learn a three move routine of moves which I find hard sometimes to separate out into the component parts - and therefore hard to work into my freestyle. I do not want to get stuck pulling class routines in freestyle! It would be really useful for me occasionally to study one move and get it ingrained with lots of different ways of going into and coming out of that move. Is that just me, or do others feel similar? :(

Achaeco
29th-January-2007, 02:07 PM
More could be done to keep the regulars/better dancers at the venue.

drathzel
29th-January-2007, 02:22 PM
how about if people are going to say what is done badly they give suggestions as to how they would do it differently?

JiveLad
29th-January-2007, 02:23 PM
Just a personal gripe, but why do lots of intermediate classes start with the teacher saying "draw a semi-circle to the left and step back"? Is the ability to do this not a prerequisite for being in the intermediate class to start with :rolleyes:

I also find the intermediate routines a blessing and a curse. I understand that you can only do so much in 30 minutes. We learn a three move routine of moves which I find hard sometimes to separate out into the component parts - and therefore hard to work into my freestyle. I do not want to get stuck pulling class routines in freestyle! It would be really useful for me occasionally to study one move and get it ingrained with lots of different ways of going into and coming out of that move. Is that just me, or do others feel similar? :(


Yes - this is something I have felt for some time - and mentioned elsewhere......My feeling it is better to be able to do one thing well, rather than 3 things that you can remember bits of. Personally, I would prefer to just have 2 moves at Intermediate level.............and really repeat-repeat-repeat so it becomes embedded - then I have actually learned something and can apply it. While we're at it, I also want to be able to see a review of the lesson on line - with a video of the moves broken down. This is done by 'Dance Yourself Dizzy' - (check out the website - very good) - and it works very well (for me anyway).

See http://www.danceyourselfdizzy.com/DanceYourselfDizzy.com.htm

BeccaB
29th-January-2007, 02:24 PM
More could be done to keep the regulars/better dancers at the venue.

:yeah:
Here there's a big drive to get new people in to dancing resulting in 30 women extra etc. that the regulars and experienced dancers are finding somewhere else to go. I think a good mix is needed.

tsh
29th-January-2007, 02:51 PM
The intermediate classes appear to be presented in much the same way as the beginner classes. No assumption that you've done anything before. Just a handfull of fancy moves, with some tired and useless classic moves thrown in.

This could be improved if there were:
* more continuity from week to week (not the same move, but a similar move - I find this helps a lot for remembering how to make a lead work). It also teaches how to distinguish between similar moves.
* simple joins and a bit of padding (no need to labour the teaching, add a bit of style (by keeping it simple) - this should help using the moves in freestyle without using them as a routine.
* preference for leadable rather than choreographed moves, and fewer moves that you'd normally only use once in a dance.
* Try and teach people to freestyle in an intermediate class rather than just trying to entertain them. (this might conflict with wanting to sell workshops though)
* Make sure the level of the class matches the level of the participents. The expectation ought to be that most in the class ought to be able to use some of it in freestyle.

Twirly
29th-January-2007, 03:09 PM
I also find the intermediate routines a blessing and a curse. I understand that you can only do so much in 30 minutes. We learn a three move routine of moves which I find hard sometimes to separate out into the component parts - and therefore hard to work into my freestyle. I do not want to get stuck pulling class routines in freestyle! It would be really useful for me occasionally to study one move and get it ingrained with lots of different ways of going into and coming out of that move. Is that just me, or do others feel similar? :(

:yeah:

I've heard a lot of leads say similar things - think this is exactly the problem Beo is having actually. What I think would be useful is to have one of the three (or four or five - as we sometimes get at Clapham) moves repeated the following week each time (or maybe even for three weeks?), or the idea of having a core of classic intermediate moves which are taught on a rolling basis, but with some repetition.

It seems weird to me that Ceroc expect a beginner to learn the beginners moves over 6 weeks + with continued repetition of the same thing in beginners class then review class, yet somehow after 6 weeks and a transfer to intermediates they are supposed to remember the much more complex intermediate moves with no repetition whatsoever. And they aren't given any tools for learning how to remember and apply the moves either. Is there some magic spell cast that after 6 weeks at Ceroc you are suddenly able to master this complexity? :rolleyes:

StokeBloke
29th-January-2007, 03:13 PM
The intermediate classes appear to be presented in much the same way as the beginner classes. No assumption that you've done anything before. Just a handfull of fancy moves, with some tired and useless classic moves thrown in.

This could be improved if there were:
* more continuity from week to week (not the same move, but a similar move - I find this helps a lot for remembering how to make a lead work). It also teaches how to distinguish between similar moves.
* simple joins and a bit of padding (no need to labour the teaching, add a bit of style (by keeping it simple) - this should help using the moves in freestyle without using them as a routine.
* preference for leadable rather than choreographed moves, and fewer moves that you'd normally only use once in a dance.
* Try and teach people to freestyle in an intermediate class rather than just trying to entertain them. (this might conflict with wanting to sell workshops though)
* Make sure the level of the class matches the level of the participents. The expectation ought to be that most in the class ought to be able to use some of it in freestyle.
:yeah: Maybe this would help with getting the 'casuals' who drift in towards the end of the intermediate class and start their night when the second session of freestyle starts. I know there are many reasons for this happening, but from conversations I have had, boredom is a major factor. It's criminal, all that dance experience going to waste :tears:

It actually turns the whole thing on it's head. When you start you aspire to the intermediate class, when you reach that point and settle in the next step 'forward(!!)' is to get to a point where you don't need the intermediate class and you can join the 'casuals'. This can't be the right message can it? :blush:

TA Guy
29th-January-2007, 03:21 PM
What Ceroc does badly is everything except get a load of people doing basic dancing very quickly.

fletch
29th-January-2007, 03:32 PM
More could be done to keep the regulars/better dancers at the venue.

:yeah:

David Bailey
29th-January-2007, 03:33 PM
how about if people are going to say what is done badly they give suggestions as to how they would do it differently?
Good point - I did say "constructive criticism", after all...

So, on my own points:

Slow dance development
I think it's very clear that Modern Jive as a dance taught at Ceroc has progressed more slowly over the past 10 years than dances such as salsa or AT - the only real change has been in the moves being taught. There's been little development of technique as far as I can tell, for example.
My suggestion to rectify this would be to start teaching technique classes, as standard - as workshops initially, then to aim to get this into the regular classes at some point. So, for example, adopt Franck's "technique" workshops, and get them offered across all franchises as part of the standard offerings (along with Beginners, Intermediate, etc.).

Franck's already done the hard work in developing these workshops, pay him some cash ( :) ) for the rights, and get started. Simple, really.


No assessment culture
There's very little assessment / criticism given by teachers, at an individual level - groups are too large and too "wholesale" for this to happen, and the teachers are physically a long way away from their pupils, so it's difficult to spot individual problems anyway. Yes, taxi dancers can do this in review classes, but they're not CTA-trained teachers.
This one's a bit more tricky, but I'd suggest that, as with Ceroc in Australia, some kind of (non-intrusive and optional) assessment system would start to get people used to the concept of peer review and constructive criticism.

MartinHarper
29th-January-2007, 04:18 PM
Slow dance development
I think it's very clear that Modern Jive as a dance taught at Ceroc has progressed more slowly over the past 10 years than dances such as salsa or AT - the only real change has been in the moves being taught. There's been little development of technique as far as I can tell, for example.

Mmm. When I see clips of folks dancing Ceroc 10 years ago, I see a fair few changes. The music is slower now, and there's arguably less bouncing. Though I don't know how fast other dances have been changing.

Anyways, why is it bad for a dance to stay the same for a decade?

David Bailey
29th-January-2007, 04:53 PM
Mmm. When I see clips of folks dancing Ceroc 10 years ago, I see a fair few changes. The music is slower now, and there's arguably less bouncing. Though I don't know how fast other dances have been changing.
The "top end", sure - competition levels are definitely higher than they were. But frankly, that's not saying much compared to other dance forms.

I'm very much not convinced that the vast mass of dancers are doing anything different to what they were 10 years ago, however. There may be more dancers at the top end (say, 200 instead of 50), but there's still 50,000 others doing the same thing.


Anyways, why is it bad for a dance to stay the same for a decade?
Me. :na:

Seriously, unless you're prepared to argue that Ceroc-style Modern Jive is the height of dance perfection, some form of continuous improvement would seem to be a sign of a vibrant dance culture.

drathzel
29th-January-2007, 05:03 PM
hi twirly

its a suggested 6 weeks and this varies from place to place. I think i remember glasgow venues being 12 weeks and i say 8 week.

My 8 week suggestion is only due to the fact my intermediate lessons arent (argueably sp?) hard. i try and keep my moves to under 14 beats and if i do teach on that long i will teach 2 other shorter moves. I only teach 3 on a regular bases and every few weeks a variation on a move that i taught previously will also appear.

maybe you and beo should try a class across the pond:wink:

JiveLad
29th-January-2007, 05:12 PM
:yeah:

What I think would be useful is to have one of the three (or four or five - as we sometimes get at Clapham) moves repeated the following week each time (or maybe even for three weeks?), or the idea of having a core of classic intermediate moves which are taught on a rolling basis, but with some repetition.

:rolleyes:


Yes, yes, yes...........just as beginners moves are repeated, then I would like to see a 'core' of classic intermediate moves taught on a rolloing basis as you describe...............this would make it easier the second time around. At the moment it is pretty much a unique lesson/set of moves on each intermediate.

Just as an aside, I didn't start going to intermediates until 10 weeks in (going twice a week)............and it is interesting that at some venues they explicitly say 'don't join intermediates until........6 weeks (typically) - and others they don't mention any criteria at all - on several occassions there have been week 1/2 beginners joining in.

JiveLad
29th-January-2007, 05:15 PM
This is more of a question......(with a sub text of what might be better).

Do Ceroc listen and act on some of the bigger issues that (for example) are being raised here? Is there some Customer Council - or any kind of customer channel into the 'Management'. I'm speaking from total ignorance here - is there a thread which describes the internal organisation structure of Ceroc?

David Bailey
29th-January-2007, 05:21 PM
Do Ceroc listen and act on some of the bigger issues that (for example) are being raised here?
Generally, I doubt it - this is just us lot whingeing, mainly :grin:


Is there some Customer Council - or any kind of customer channel into the 'Management'. I'm speaking from total ignorance here - is there a thread which describes the internal organisation structure of Ceroc?
I don't think there is an organisational structure - there's Ceroc HQ, with a few staff, and there's Ceroc Franchises.

Anyway, that's all rubbish, everyone knows it's all run by The Ten.

David Bailey
29th-January-2007, 05:23 PM
Just as an aside, I didn't start going to intermediates until 10 weeks in (going twice a week)............and it is interesting that at some venues they explicitly say 'don't join intermediates until........6 weeks (typically) - and others they don't mention any criteria at all - on several occassions there have been week 1/2 beginners joining in.
Another thing that Ceroc does badly is to call you an intermediate dancer after 6 weeks.

I did the Ceroc beginner's classes for months, back when they had a whole "beginners night" in the Central Club. It took me ages to work up the courage to go to an intermediate evening. But then, I'm slow.

stewart38
29th-January-2007, 05:32 PM
In balance to the "What Ceroc does well... (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11338)" thread, I'd like to use this thread to constructively criticize Ceroc practices - basically, things which are done better by other dance organisations / teachers, and which Ceroc could learn from (again, not just other MJ-ers).

Again, I'll kick off with a couple:

Slow dance development
I think it's very clear that Modern Jive as a dance taught at Ceroc has progressed more slowly over the past 10 years than dances such as salsa or AT - the only real change has been in the moves being taught. There's been little development of technique as far as I can tell, for example.
<p>
No assessment culture
There's very little assessment / criticism given by teachers, at an individual level - groups are too large and too "wholesale" for this to happen, and the teachers are physically a long way away from their pupils, so it's difficult to spot individual problems anyway. Yes, taxi dancers can do this in review classes, but they're not CTA-trained teachers.


Next?



Ok you have started of on the assumptions that’s what people want . Clearly they don’t otherwise ceroc wouldn’t have grown exponentially since cira 1980 and I believe still does grow

I started ceroc as I didn’t want to be ‘tested’ like I was in ‘ballroom’;

Its not what ceroc in my view should be about so id say they have done well


I'm very much not convinced that the vast mass of dancers are doing anything different to what they were 10 years ago, however. There may be more dancers at the top end (say, 200 instead of 50), but there's still 50,000 others doing the same thing.




what’s wrong with that

Ceroc isn’t about making great dancers its about having a fun night

If ceroc goes away from the basics then it will fail and something will take its place

Change for change sake doesn’t mark ‘progression’

AA hasn’t changed much in 50yrs but im told still works very well

Twirlie Bird
29th-January-2007, 05:48 PM
Ok. Here goes. My first post here. Been reading for quite a while but now have the courage to join in. :o

Thank you Jivelad for the dance yourself dizzy link. Went to take a quick look and came back 40 minutes later!! It's excellent. That's exactly what Ceroc need. It's so hard to remember the moves you have learnt. I always try to write them down when I get home but you don't always get told what the moves even are. Then when you do know the names you have to try and remember them and how they go until you get home.

Oh one last question. Who are The Ten???

Ok that wasn't too bad. :sick:

David Bailey
29th-January-2007, 05:49 PM
Ok you have started of on the assumptions that’s what people want . Clearly they don’t otherwise ceroc wouldn’t have grown exponentially since cira 1980 and I believe still does grow
The growth of a business doesn't mean it's perfect, it just means that the business meets a need well enough to grow. And if it's not clear, I'm not talking about the business model, I'm talking about the teaching of dancing.


Ceroc isn’t about making great dancers its about having a fun night
I'm fairly sure that people to teach dancing at Ceroc, or they say they do - perhaps I was imagining the thousands of classes over the years? :eek:

Given that, you kind of assume they do some work in training and updating their... what's the word... ah, "teachers". Presumably this is done for a reason, otherwise they'd just do freestyles every night and save themselves the bother.

Ceroc does teach dance, in other words, so it's silly to pretend it's just a social club.


AA hasn’t changed much in 50yrs but im told still works very well
"My name is DavidJames and I'm a Cerocer" AA? Or "Very nice man" AA?

David Bailey
29th-January-2007, 05:52 PM
Ok. Here goes. My first post here. Been reading for quite a while but now have the courage to join in. :o
Welcome! :clap:


Oh one last question. Who are The Ten???
Well, if we knew that, they wouldn't be The Ten, would they? :innocent:

(Oh, OK then, see here for the details (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=147088#post147088))

stewart38
29th-January-2007, 05:56 PM
The growth of a business doesn't mean it's perfect, it just means that the business meets a need well enough to grow. And if it's not clear, I'm not talking about the business model, I'm talking about the teaching of dancing.



You have stated what ceroc does 'Badly'

Perhaps you should change the thread re This is what i think would make Ceroc better its just my personal opinion :nice:

This forum will probably generated 5 times as many posts as what it does badly then what it does well

Id if you asked your standard cerocer it would be the other way around

Cruella
29th-January-2007, 05:56 PM
Oh one last question. Who are The Ten???

I could tell you but then i'd have to kill you!
BTW, Welcome. :D

TheTramp
29th-January-2007, 06:10 PM
Yes, yes, yes...........just as beginners moves are repeated, then I would like to see a 'core' of classic intermediate moves taught on a rolloing basis as you describe...............this would make it easier the second time around. At the moment it is pretty much a unique lesson/set of moves on each intermediate.


There are a core of classic intermediate moves. And in Scotland, we put in one of them every lesson. Along with one move that is based on one of the moves taught in the beginner class. And anything else is really the only 'free choice' of move(s) taught.

Jhutch
29th-January-2007, 06:41 PM
There are a core of classic intermediate moves. And in Scotland, we put in one of them every lesson. Along with one move that is based on one of the moves taught in the beginner class. And anything else is really the only 'free choice' of move(s) taught.

This is true in london as well. Each routine has one of the so-called classic moves (sometimes this is indicated) - i can't remember how many there are (30-40?:confused: ) so if you go regularly then you should see them reappear. I have had one particular move taught three times now i think.

As to the wider issues on intermediate classes. I think that part of the problem is the wide range of abilities. You will have some people who are doing their first one and some who have been doing it for years. Trying to tailor a routine to both these sets is going to be difficult. I suppose the ideal situation would be to have a class which takes the newer intermediates and takes more time over moves, maybe teaches a bit of technique, etc. However, i doubt whether this can be realistically done in many venues, it also requires more teachers. I suppose an 'improver' night could be one solution in large cities? Only problem would be that in freestyle you would know that the dancing ability would be below that of a normal night.

Someone mentioned repeating moves from the previous week. I have noticed sometimes that similar moves are done in successive weeks, which is appreciated as if you couldnt quite 'get' the first one then you stand a better chance of getting the second one.The only problem is that you might find you end up leading a succession of very similar moves through a song:D

Paulthetrainer
29th-January-2007, 06:56 PM
:yeah:

What I think would be useful is to have one of the three (or four or five - as we sometimes get at Clapham) moves repeated the following week :rolleyes:

Exactly what I was thinking - with perhaps a show of hands from the masses to decide which one?

TheTramp
29th-January-2007, 09:00 PM
Exactly what I was thinking - with perhaps a show of hands from the masses to decide which one?

I'm never sure about this. Given that one of the moves is a variation of one of the beginner moves from that evening. And one is a 'classic' move, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of opportunity for variety anyhow (and yes, I know that last week's beginner variation could be this week's repeated move if it was a difficult one).

It is never easy, getting a class that will please everyone. However, the 'classic' moves are moves that, in the main, beginner intermediates should be able to achieve, if they are actually ready for the class. And most people struggle to remember more than one move from the class by the next day. Which gives the beginner intermediates something from the class that can be achieved. And then, you might want something for people who are further along the path.

Of course, that's not to say that you can never repeat a move from the previous week (or a variation thereof), just that I probably don't see the need to make that a standard thing. Other teachers may well differ in this opinion of course.

LMC
29th-January-2007, 09:12 PM
Footwork.

Yes, I know the whole point of MJ is no footwork.

But watching the ladies at HMS President yesterday, Lynn (hope you don't mind me naming and shaming!) and I had a couple of "*** (OK, that phrasing is mine) is going on with their FEET?! :what: :eek: :really: "

Loads of weird kicky stuff. BiZARRE.

Didn't really notice what the men were doing sorry, 'cos I don't watch them for style points for my following.

Perhaps it would help to have some more emphasis on, er, walking to the music, rather than trying too hard to look like a dancer with all the kicky bouncy stuff? (sorry luv, actually you look like a prat, plus I'm getting all paranoid that I'm doing that too :tears:)

tsh
29th-January-2007, 09:48 PM
Continuity from week to week seems to make a huge difference to picking up moves. Not talking about the classic moves, which are just boring, but taking a move one week, and building on it the next. Maybe a one-handed catapult, leading into a repeating catapult the next. The lead (at least the right hand) is identical. Or one travelling first move, then a similar one, maybe harder, maybe not.

It encourages people to take notice, expecting to build on it next week and reminds them about a move they would otherwise have forgotten. It also gives a valuable lesson in showing that moves are built from a common framework.

I've seen classes where a longer routine is taught over several weeks, adding a couple of moves each week, which seems to work well if the majority of the class turn up every week.

MartinHarper
29th-January-2007, 10:43 PM
I'm very much not convinced that the vast mass of dancers are doing anything different to what they were 10 years ago.

Check this thread: Milestons in MJ development (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4331). From there I'd cite Manhatten footwork and Blues as significant changes - it's hard for me now to imagine an MJ scene without those influences. Neither of these elements were present in MJ's predecessors. Additionally, many of the tracks routinely played at MJ nights had not been created ten years ago, so there's a musical change too.

Sure, I've not experienced these changes first hand, but all the evidence I've seen points to an MJ scene that is slowly changing over the years to match cultural developments over the same timeframe. Is Argentine Tango changing so much faster? Remember, it's had longer in which to change...

Andy McGregor
30th-January-2007, 12:18 AM
Footwork.

Yes, I know the whole point of MJ is no footwork.Of course there's footwork. You move them to the beat and it's lades right on odd beats ladies left on even beats.

As a competitor to Ceroc I would rather you didn't post what's wrong with it. I'd prefer they stayed in blissful ignorance of their faults :devil:

David Bailey
30th-January-2007, 10:18 AM
Sure, I've not experienced these changes first hand, but all the evidence I've seen points to an MJ scene that is slowly changing over the years to match cultural developments over the same timeframe.
I'm not convinced, but it's a subjective judgement of course. I don't see any major difference between the vast majority of cerocers now and 10 years ago, in terms of technique. Style developments (e.g. blues) have passed the vast majority of people by, simply because things like manhattans and blues are not incorporated in standard classes.

In fact, I heard (from a Ceroc teacher) that manhattan footwork was forbidden in a class - it wasn't allowed to be taught.

Ceroc doesn't have the flexibility to quickly adopt new techniques and developments in its classes, in other words.


Is Argentine Tango changing so much faster? Remember, it's had longer in which to change...
Actually, I've no idea, I don't know enough about the AT scene.
However, I know that salsa changes much faster - for example, the way cross-body lead dancing swept through the clubs like wildfire a few years ago; within a year, everyone was teaching and dancing that style. I can't imagine a similar change happening at Ceroc, can you?

Icey
30th-January-2007, 07:52 PM
On a purely selfish note :whistle: Looking after their student population! I get very annoyed when some franchises offer student discounts under the "Concessions" banner and other don't :angry: Makes me less inclined to come back.

One day I will have qualified and will had oodles of money and won't spend it on anything Ceroc related other than entrance fees if I can help it :na:


..."*** (OK, that phrasing is mine) is going on with their FEET?! :what: :eek: :really: "

Loads of weird kicky stuff. BiZARRE.


Goose stepping. Facinating to watch - I can't tear my gaze away :blush:

Lynn
30th-January-2007, 09:11 PM
I'll add in lead and follow. Its mentioned, yes, but not taught. In fact the very first thing that is taught in Ceroc when people pair up is a signal that actually hinders good connection (IMO).

Why not start with the basic principle of connection, and teach a simple lead for a step back at the beginning?

Lost Leader
30th-January-2007, 10:09 PM
A lot of things have been said in this thread with which I agree, especially with regard to the intermediate class issue.

I first want to comment on the related issue of when you should progress up to the intemedaite class. There is certainly a need for some better and more consistent guidance about this from Ceroc UK. It is of course true that different people will be able to progress up to intermediate level at different times simply because people differ in ability, previous dance experience and speed of learning. That said I think there is a general problem that some people make the move too early and as a result risk never learning the beginner moves properly (which will always handicap their dancing to some extent) or struggling so much in the intermediate class that they give up entirely. One point that is in my view generally true but rarely if ever seems to be said on Ceroc literature or webs-sites, is that leaders need to spend more time doing the beginner and refresher classes than followers. As a basic rule of thumb I would suggest that followers can consider progressing to the intermediate class after 6 to 8 weeks but for leaders it should be more like 10 to 12 weeks. These times could be shortened somewhat if you happen to be a naturally talented dancer and / or have previous partner dance experience. I have however all too often seen beginners who have only been attending for one or two weeks attempting to do the intermediate class.

The intermediate class itself is problematic - as has been said you have to try to cater for a vast range of experience. However, I do not think Ceroc have got it right yet. These are in my view the main problems and some suggested improvements;

- classes are in general a little too difficult. In my experience difiiculty with at least once of the moves is quite commonplace. How many times have you heard the teacher say something like "I thought you were all going to get that quite easily but a lot of you seem to be having problems". I think teachers are inclined to sometimes underestimate the difficulty of the routine. Four moves in half an hour is a lot especially if one of the moves involves some footwork ending with say a fancy exit and / or a lean or dip.
- there is too much emphasis on choreographed routines and not enough on moves which are relatively easy to lead in freestyle.
- I think 3 moves would be better than 4 or 5.
- relatively simple linking moves seem to be rarely taught but they are a vtial element in freestyle.
- it would be a lot better to sometimes dedicate a whole 30 minute lesson to say a footwork / dip combo than tacking this on to 2 or 3 other moves and expecting most people to learn it in 10 minutes. The latter results in few people being able to execute the move properly during the class and even fewer knowing it well enough to be able to incorporate it into their free styling.
- some form of continuity from one week to the next might also help (for example do a variation on a move taught the previous week)

Trouble
30th-January-2007, 10:43 PM
one thing i have noticed now that i am a little more advanced in dancing is that there seems to be a gaping hole in the standard ceroc night lessons. I have noticed that intermediate dance lessons vary dramatically depending on where you are. There are not any lessons on a normal ceroc night that really challenge the more experienced dancers. There is either beginners or intermediate. There is no advance lesson taught to my knowledge anywhere unless you go for workshops. :sick:

So what do we get from it apart from the social life and some good dances? :rolleyes:

Whilst the above two are what its all about, it would be nice to have an opportunity to advance in some way. :awe:

FirstMove
30th-January-2007, 11:41 PM
There are not any lessons on a normal ceroc night that really challenge the more experienced dancers.

:yeah:

I think that the comments on this thread show that Ceroc suffers from its own success, by being very broad in its appeal.

Several comments on this thread are asking for moves to be repeated from week to week, essentially making the classes easier. However, if Ceroc wants experienced dancers to turn up before the freestyle, it needs to give them a reason. Coughing up £6 for 90mins of freestyle is hardly cost effective. Add on 40mins of travelling there and back and why bother?

I have no problem picking up intermediate classes any more, often just watching the demo is enough. Knowing that 1 of the 3 moves is going to occur next week too means there's even less of a reason to turn up.

Recently, I have noticed that several of the best local followers have decided they are bored and want to lead instead. Requests for a dance are accepted, but only grudgingly. When asked, they openly admit they'd rather be working on learning to lead intermediate moves.


So what to do?

One local franchise has a system of having easy intermediate classes at the start of the month, getting more difficult
as the month progresses. Beginners are not encouraged to start doing the intermediate class in the tricky weeks, although no-one actually stops them. The only thing holding this back is that the teacher forgets what week it is and does an easy class on the supposedly hard weeks - the only ones I bother travelling to.:sad:

Another thing that seems to work is when teachers theme classes, e.g. cha cha moves, swing moves, blues moves, even monster pretzel variations :) By doing lots of similar moves, the class seems to pick up the essence of the move better. My suspicion is that themed classes require more preparation than the time available between beginner and intermediate classes, so are just too much work to do regularly.

One last thing. Just before the intermediate class, invite people to dance through the previous week's routine. Don't show them before, just count it in and dance it through with them. See what happens. The result will show you how easy or hard a class really is and whether anyone thinks it contained anything worth remembering.... Of course, being Ceroc, those that give it a try also get a round of applause :rolleyes:

TheTramp
31st-January-2007, 05:03 AM
As a basic rule of thumb

I thought that thumbs weren't allowed at Ceroc....


one thing i have noticed now that i am a little more advanced in dancing is that there seems to be a gaping hole in the standard ceroc night lessons. I have noticed that intermediate dance lessons vary dramatically depending on where you are. There are not any lessons on a normal ceroc night that really challenge the more experienced dancers. There is either beginners or intermediate. There is no advance lesson taught to my knowledge anywhere unless you go for workshops. :sick:

So what do we get from it apart from the social life and some good dances? :rolleyes:

Whilst the above two are what its all about, it would be nice to have an opportunity to advance in some way. :awe:

I wonder how any form of dance, or most other things that are taught, actually differ from this.

When I did martial arts, the vast focus of the session, was spent on mastering the basics, and making sure that they were done well. We spent the first 10 minutes going over front kicks and punches. Can you imagine if 'advanced' people were told to go over first moves, until they actually did them well?? :rolleyes:

When I was playing rugby, it was the same. The vast amount of the training session was on the basics. Getting fit, passing, tackling. Over and over, until it became 2nd nature to do them right. The 'clever' stuff came right at the very end.

Personally, I think that there are no such things as advanced moves. There are beginner moves, and "the rest". Of course, there are varying degrees of difficulty in the moves that fit into "the rest". And then, advanced dancers do them well. With style and musicality. The sort of thing that you go to workshops for. And then practice bringing them into your dancing both in classes, and in freestyle.

I've not been to many other forms of dancing on a regular basis. However, the salsa classes I went to for a while had pretty much the same form as Ceroc, albeit with 4 different levels instead of 2. However, what was being taught in the top level class didn't appear to be much different to the intermediate level class at Ceroc in terms of difficulty. There were just more stages in between.

At the WCS weekend I've just been to, there were 4 levels of workshop. I did level 3, and coped reasonably well with it, despite only ever having done 3 classes before (let's not talk about my freestyle attempts though eh! :tears: ). The level 4 workshops did seem to concentrate more on technique, although, we were taught that at level 3, as well as moves. It'd be interesting to see how WCS was taught at 'class nights' in America. I don't imagine that it would be much different from Ceroc (but am happy to be told I'm wrong).

I think that it's generally the case that most classes in any hobby or sport (or however you define dancing) cater for a beginner to average level of ability. Those who are (or think that they are) past that level, generally have to look for something else - whether it be private lessons, workshops etc. in order to move on.

under par
31st-January-2007, 09:33 AM
Ok. I have thought long and hard about posting this. I still don't know if it's a good idea. I am feeling very frustrated and really could do with venting this and hopefully getting some advice.

I haven't been dancing long but I have been dancing long enough to know I LOVE it. The feeling of twirling around the dance floor is unbelievable. I never imagined it would feel so good. I seem to be getting the moves quickly and remembering them. I feel that I have advanced well and am pleased with what I have acheived so far. It's the what happens next bit where I'm stuck.

I have started dancing 4 times a week. This is accelerated my learning curve. I am learning a lot of new intermediate moves. This is just adding to my frustration. When I go out and dance with people this is what I am finding. There are the beginners who are still trying to grasp the basic moves. The dancers who have been doing it for years and are amazing to dance with and everyone in between. I find that the majority of guys have their own little routines and favourite moves. Some people I dance with I could pretty much follow with my eyes closed as they are so predictable. Please don't think I am having a downer on these guys as I really am not.

When I dance with the very experienced dancers I feel that I am being pushed, taxed, my own dancing is being expanded. I have to think and I love it. I learn even more new moves and learn style. This is when I am on a complete high. This is how I want to feel all night. Obviously I cannot feel this all night and this is where my frustration comes in.

I don't know if any of this is making any sense. I really don't want to sound bigheaded. I would be the first to say that I have so very much to learn yet. I just don't know how I can drive my own learning. I learn these intermediate moves but as I am the followerer I cannot decide to dance these moves. Apart from hogging the experienced guys all night I really don't know how to better myself.

Apologies for quoting from another thread twice in one post but I feel that this topic is something that Ceroc and other Leroc etc. do not do well



Twirly Bird, what you describe is the second biggest problem that ceroc/leroc etc has.

The first is the retention of males/leaders and making them the competent /pleasant/ challenging dancers you describe as the dancers who give you the buzz/high.

Ceroc/leroc do not appear to have grasped that it is the very good male leads that the improving/advanced followers need and chase to get their highs.

The fact there is always more women than men should encourage Leroc Ceroc to provide higher quality training for the leaders so that more of them can satisfy the followers needs.

The problem you have desribed is that once you have learned to follow well your lessons are boring/dull. I do not believe most followers learn anything new after about 6-8 months of following from lessons.
After this period of time followers learn far more from freestyling with good leads than anything from a lesson. (workshops involving style tecniquue an exception)

Followers are in fact the manequins that are required by leaders to learn the moves taught during classes.
Although beginner followers believe they need to LEARN moves this is never challenged by teachers and is actually a hindrance to leaders learning to lead IMHO

Leaders actually need followers who do not anticipate or backlead during classes so they can learn to properly LEAD the moves being taught.

I hope that all dance class organisers will prioritise their teaching to improving the quality of their leaders which will in turn satisfy the needs and requirements of the far more numerous, much higher standard followers.

Groovemeister
31st-January-2007, 09:35 AM
I can only tell you from my experience with other types of dance Trampy which is 5 years of ballroom and the last 3 years of doing tap.

It was all about getting the basics right and nothing else for a probably the first year on both occasions. Probably why people tend to get bored with learning ballroom inparticular.

I did find Ceroc quite frustrating at the begining because of the lack of direct teaching and structure. I now know how to get the best out of the ceroc lessons I go to and enjoy them for what they are and then develope my own technique and movement outside of it.

under par
31st-January-2007, 09:44 AM
I did find Ceroc quite frustrating at the begining because of the lack of direct teaching and structure. I now know how to get the best out of the ceroc lessons I go to and enjoy them for what they are and then develope my own technique and movement outside of it.

So is ceroc failing to help you progress as a dancer?

Do you as a leader feel that you have improved yourself as a result of your own actions, rather than what you have been getting from ceorc/leroc recently?

Groovemeister
31st-January-2007, 09:59 AM
So is ceroc failing to help you progress as a dancer?

Do you as a leader feel that you have improved yourself as a result of your own actions, rather than what you have been getting from ceorc/leroc recently?

I have for the last 3-4 months felt I was progressing more by going and watching other people. I find that I can change my style quite easily by watching I suppose I could be said to have a "dance head".

TBH i also think my ability to be able to dance well as an individual has had the biggest effect on my partner dancing. When I learn things such as general balance and foot movement I can use them to improve on the basics that i pick up at the Ceroc or other MJ lessons. I don't have to concentrate on where my feet are or how to spin or control myself I can just learn a move or interprut the music instead.

Also having a consistent partner that I dance with 3 times a week helps no end

eastmanjohn
31st-January-2007, 10:14 AM
:yeah:

I have no problem picking up intermediate classes any more, often just watching the demo is enough. Knowing that 1 of the 3 moves is going to occur next week too means there's even less of a reason to turn up.


We do a 5 or 6 move routine and repeat 1 or 2 moves from the previous week. That makes it more challenging than just 3 moves. The routine's finished before its starts with just 3 moves.

How about doing a routine that is choreographed to a piece of music to encourage use of breaks etc and understand how they fit. It could be from the middle of a song if the Dj knows where to start from.

StokeBloke
31st-January-2007, 11:21 AM
I fairness some of these issues are being resolved. We generally do 3 intermediate moves. Carry across moves from previous weeks are also starting to happen. I agree completely with the 6 week rule - that is total BS. Taxi's are for people who have been dancing less than 6 weeks. Anyone been coming for less than 6 weeks can attend the review class. Etc etc.... but last night I danced with a lady who leaves a red thumb mark on the back of my hand she clutches it so tightly - it's impossible to put her into a hatchback without it ending up as a yo-yo.... she's been dancing for years. I feel unable with my limited experience to try and 'tell her what to do'. I also don't really feel it is my place to do so!

There is no peer review. No natural progression for those who want it. No way to gauge your improvement (except with self imposed and often unrealistic personal target setting). As such you end up with a huge swathe of dancers who can limp by with no aspiration. Because there is nothing to aspire to! At the start I was confused by people who said they used to Ceroc, but gave it all up after 6-8 months. Now I understand. It is not just newbies that need retaining or there will just be a continuous loop of..... well you get the idea.

Maybe these observations are completely unfounded and off base. But it really does seem like students are encouraged along, retained until they are hooked and then forgotten. Ceroc seems to be based on teaching moves and not teaching dance.

TheTramp
31st-January-2007, 12:38 PM
There is no peer review. No natural progression for those who want it. No way to gauge your improvement (except with self imposed and often unrealistic personal target setting). As such you end up with a huge swathe of dancers who can limp by with no aspiration. Because there is nothing to aspire to!

Of course there is. Peer review - dance with the teacher (or demo). Before you do so, ask them to be prepared to give you feedback at the end. I'm always happy to help, but there's no point in dancing with me, and at the end asking me how to get better. I don't spend most dances thinking about that. I need to be asked to switch into 'teacher' mode.

There are other things that you can do if you want to improve - private lessons, workshops etc. It requires some effort, and, of course, some financial input. But tell me what you can learn that doesn't involve those. There's always something to aspire to. Even if it's just self-improvement. Or to be as good as the best dancer at your venue. Or as good as someone that you've seen at a weekender, or a competition. Or to be able to lead well. Or follow well. Or whatever.

The point is, that for a lot of people, they don't want these aspirations. They want a comfortable night out, with friends, a few dances, a bit of exercise, etc. For the people who want more, it's generally available, but not always just through your usual classes. But as I said above, I don't think that Ceroc is different to most hobbies or activities in that way.


Ceroc seems to be based on teaching moves and not teaching dance.

So, tell me, can you dance better now than you could when you started?

Just where did you learn to do that then? :whistle:

LMC
31st-January-2007, 01:27 PM
Goose stepping. Facinating to watch - I can't tear my gaze away :blush:
It wasn't just goose stepping though - there was all sorts of other weird **** going on. Mesmerising - in a car crash rubbernecking kind of way :S

Gadget
31st-January-2007, 02:18 PM
More could be done to keep the regulars/better dancers at the venue.
:yeah: I think that this is the only area Ceroc seem to falter at - it takes dancers to a certain level, then expects them to take the initative and seek out improvement beyond that level. Yes, it does offer it; but only if you activly seek it out.

I think that the general standard of dancing could be improved (by quite a margin) if there was a 10 min slot before the intermediate lesson that was a cut down "focus" thing{*} - teaching a bit about connection, spins, movement, style, or whatever was relevant to the forthcoming routine. Probably better linking it with the "classic" move, then notes and subjects could be passed throughout the teaching network.
Alternativly, incorporate this information into the intermediate class. {Some teachers already do a bit, some don't, and it varys from lesson to lesson.}

{* they now have the "Ceroc Essentials" - a similar thing for intermediates, but doing connection excercises, spinning, etc is the idea.}


I strongly dissagree that there should be any form of specific standards, goals, medals, entrance exams, qualfications, levels, or any specific rating system for dancers to be judged by or judge themselves by.
I think that everyone is too unique to have a standard imposed on them and expect them to measure up to it. Personal feedback, personal analysis and one-on-one tuition will give anyone lots of ways to improve nd can give much better, tailored personal goals than any check list ever will.


The semi-circle thing, I used to think interfeared with the dance and was against the principles of lead and follow... untill I started taking a closer look at timeing. I think it needs to be there to give the follower some warning at the start of a dance... if you start dancing before (/as) you've entered the floor, then it's not necessary, but from a 'cold' start I think it is.

The moving to intermediates I think is as individual as the person moving: the beginner routines are taught in a block of something then repeated. I think that once most folk complete a block they could probably move up (subject to the discression of teachers/taxis)

MartinHarper
31st-January-2007, 03:53 PM
Style developments (e.g. blues) have passed the vast majority of people by, simply because things like manhattans and blues are not incorporated in standard classes.
In fact, I heard (from a Ceroc teacher) that manhattan footwork was forbidden in a class - it wasn't allowed to be taught.

Then your teachers suck. Get new ones.

David Bailey
31st-January-2007, 04:01 PM
Then your teachers suck.
Why? If they're told that they can't teach something, that doesn't automatically make them poor teachers - just constrained. My point is exactly that - Ceroc constrains creativity in teaching the intermediate classes.

Putting it another way - Ceroc does intermediate classes badly.


Get new ones.
I did. They're called tango teachers.

MartinHarper
31st-January-2007, 04:03 PM
Why? If they're told that they can't teach something, that doesn't automatically make them poor teachers - just constrained. My point is exactly that - Ceroc constrains creativity in teaching the intermediate classes.

Reason I say that is that I've been taught manhatten footwork (and the odd bit of blues) in regular ceroc classes.

Twirlie Bird
31st-January-2007, 04:12 PM
Of course there is. Peer review - dance with the teacher (or demo). Before you do so, ask them to be prepared to give you feedback at the end. I'm always happy to help, but there's no point in dancing with me, and at the end asking me how to get better. I don't spend most dances thinking about that. I need to be asked to switch into 'teacher' mode.


Thanks for that brilliant advice. I had already decided that I was going to ask teachers and experienced dancers for feedback. However I would have asked them at the end of the dance. The only thing about asking at the begining is I may feel that I am being watched, examined, try too hard and then go wrong!!!

David Bailey
31st-January-2007, 04:13 PM
Reason I say that is that I've been taught manhatten footwork (and the odd bit of blues) in regular ceroc classes.
Maybe they were secret rebels or something :)

TheTramp
31st-January-2007, 04:23 PM
Thanks for that brilliant advice. I had already decided that I was going to ask teachers and experienced dancers for feedback. However I would have asked them at the end of the dance. The only thing about asking at the begining is I may feel that I am being watched, examined, try too hard and then go wrong!!!

Hehe. If it's someone I dance with regularly, I tell them that I will. Sometime in the next couple of weeks. That way, they forget that they asked, and I'll try to do it sometime when they're not expecting it, and hence aren't trying too hard.

Of course, sometimes I forget too! :blush:

Mythical
31st-January-2007, 11:31 PM
I'd also like to have a "grading" to work towards....as much as I'm having fun, it'd be nice to achieve something with it!!

It seems that all the teachers/advanced dancers have the same style, and after a while, it's quite uninspiring, whereas there are a few guys at the class I go to who have a rather......shall we say....unique...style, who are interesting to watch and fun to dance with yet it seems to be frowned upon! There's even one guy who everyone warns me away from, because he "jumps about all over the place". I'd like to see far more emphasis on developing a style of your own.

I don't know how it is at other venues, but I'd also like to see the female taxi dancers dancing as females in the beginners lessons.....I know there are more women, and they have to make up the numbers, but if some women are going to have to slot in anyway, why not have a taxi dancer to help the guys through their moves, because the guys have an even harder time than the women!

StokeBloke
1st-February-2007, 12:43 AM
I'd also like to see the female taxi dancers dancing as females in the beginners lessons.....I know there are more women, and they have to make up the numbers, but if some women are going to have to slot in anyway, why not have a taxi dancer to help the guys through their moves, because the guys have an even harder time than the women!
:yeah: I have always thought this was a very strange use of resources. Let the taxi dancers dance as ladies and move the girls round slightly more quickly. That leaves nobody out for too long and the guys get the experience of leading someone proficient at dancing.

under par
1st-February-2007, 07:37 AM
:yeah: I have always thought this was a very strange use of resources. Let the taxi dancers dance as ladies and move the girls round slightly more quickly. That leaves nobody out for too long and the guys get the experience of leading someone proficient at dancing.


Great point... it is the leaders who need most help during the learning process the more time spent helping them, the quicker they will become competent dancers and will thus give many more ladies/followers better dances.

Another point about classes I'm sure I mentioned somewhere before is to try and get your more/most experienced leads placed on the line where the extra ladies join on from standing out...

the benefit is the more experienced leads should pick it up quicker and will therefore be able to assist those followers who haven't done the move yet better than a novice can, when they join the line.

David Bailey
1st-February-2007, 11:09 AM
I'd also like to have a "grading" to work towards....as much as I'm having fun, it'd be nice to achieve something with it!!
There are a couple of threads on this topic:

Exam / grading system in Ceroc: good or bad idea? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7477)
Dance levels: "Card" system? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7450)


I think it's fair to say that some people have strong opinions on that one - personally, on balance I think it could be a good idea, but the devil's in the details.

David Bailey
1st-February-2007, 11:13 AM
Another thing that Ceroc does badly, considering it's a national organisation, is the lack of consistency between different franchisee web sites.

It's quite surprising considering the emphasis on standardisation in other areas - it'd be nice if Ceroc HQ could supply a template and try to enforce some common usability conventions, for example.

And don't get me started on the different site names... :rolleyes:

frodo
1st-February-2007, 09:01 PM
Another thing that Ceroc does badly, considering it's a national organisation, is the lack of consistency between different franchisee web sites.

It's quite surprising considering the emphasis on standardisation in other areas - it'd be nice if Ceroc HQ could supply a template and try to enforce some common usability conventions, for example...

Seems rather a backward step for some franchises to standardise on the Ceroc HQ or Ceroc London templates/usability though.

David Bailey
2nd-February-2007, 10:48 AM
Seems rather a backward step for some franchises to standardise on the Ceroc HQ or Ceroc London templates/usability though.
Weeeellll.... Yeah, probably, but I'd prefer to see them all looking consistently mediocre than them all looking different - some OK, some awful - which is the case as the moment.

At least then improvements can be made globally, and users only have to get used to one set of design idiosyncrasies, rather than 20-odd sets.

Lou
2nd-February-2007, 12:56 PM
Weeeellll.... Yeah, probably, but I'd prefer to see them all looking consistently mediocre than them all looking different - some OK, some awful - which is the case as the moment.

Weeeeeelll... personally, I have a soft spot for CerocScotland.... :whistle: