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View Full Version : Moves Workshops or Technique Workshops? Or a bit of both?



Beowulf
22nd-January-2007, 05:45 PM
After posting/ reading this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11228) I was thinking how I really should make a concerted effort to improve my dancing.

I cannot despite my best intentions improve with the one class a week I'm currently doing and at the moment I'm in the situation where more than one class a week is out of the question. (sometimes 1 class a fortnight is difficult to be honest :tears:)

Anyway, I find the way intermediate moves are taught (with rare repetitions unlike the beginner classes) I find the moves very hard to sink in and are soon forgotten.

So I thought I'd attempt to set aside some money to do some workshops. But finances are tight so where in an ideal world doing EVERY workshop that comes up may be a good way to progress in the real world it's impractical.

So I thought I'd ask for some advice. To get the most out of very little, would I be best to go to moves workshops (say the Intermediate 1 ,2 and 3 classes) or should I concentrate on doing what i already know better by doing some of the technique courses (such as Franck's widely praised and highly recommended "Focus on" workshops?) or perhaps a particular mix of both?

I know this is a bit of a "how long is a piece of string?" question. I'm not looking for a definitive answer but to gauge opinion and get some idea of my progression path?

And yes Trampy.. before you say it, I'll beat you to it.. Perhaps if I came to class every week I wouldn't NEED to do workshops to improve. But it's a bit of a catch 22 cycle here, I cant do anything but basic moves, so I get bored and don't go to class, I don't go to class so I cant do anything but basic moves etc. :wink: (btw Trampy.. You know I respect your opinion really.. just Jesting :flower:)

So, bearing in mind that the number of workshops I could attend (factoring in travel etc) would be limited at the moment. Which workshops would give me the best improvement in my dancing over the shortest period of time?

I seem to have hit my plateaux at an alarmingly low altitude :sick:

TheTramp
22nd-January-2007, 05:50 PM
And yes Trampy.. before you say it, I'll beat you to it.. Perhaps if I came to class every week I wouldn't NEED to do workshops to improve. But it's a bit of a catch 22 cycle here, I cant do anything but basic moves, so I get bored and don't go to class, I don't go to class so I cant do anything but basic moves etc. :wink: (btw Trampy.. You know I respect your opinion really.. just Jesting :flower:)

Well. It wouldn't hurt! :flower:

Talk to me tomorrow about it. I might have a couple of suggestions for you!

ducasi
22nd-January-2007, 06:00 PM
Any way you could make the next Kirriemuir weekend? That's a lot of technique packed into one weekend.

I found doing an intermediate workshop very useful though in expanding my repertoire of moves just when I needed it.

Maybe I should go another one... :whistle:

Lee Bartholomew
22nd-January-2007, 06:03 PM
I'll make a few sugestions if I may....

Try a different style of dance for a bit. Try abit of Tango or WCS. You will pick up different ways of dancing.

Also could try different MJ classes. Each teacher has his . her own ways of doing things.

Look at video clips on the net. Pick one move or foot work piece per week to work on.

MartinHarper
22nd-January-2007, 06:11 PM
To get the most out of very little, would I be best to go to moves workshops (say the Intermediate 1 ,2 and 3 classes) or should I concentrate on doing what i already know better by doing some of the technique courses (such as Franck's widely praised and highly recommended "Focus on" workshops?) or perhaps a particular mix of both?

Technique, easily. You can pick up moves from watching other people, and from regular classes. If you can only go to a few workshops, go to the ones that teach you things you don't get from regular classes. In particular, I'd suggest a workshop in either musicality or connection. Musicality you can then practice by dancing, whilst connection you can practice by repeating the exercises you get shown in the workshop.

Franck
22nd-January-2007, 06:11 PM
So I thought I'd ask for some advice. To get the most out of very little, would I be best to go to moves workshops (say the Intermediate 1 ,2 and 3 classes) or should I concentrate on doing what i already know better by doing some of the technique courses (such as Franck's widely praised and highly recommended "Focus on" workshops?) or perhaps a particular mix of both?A bit of both is indeed the best approach but I appreciate that if finances are limited, you have to pick carefully.

Focus workshops (shame you missed the one in Aberdeen yesterday) are ideal as they are cheaper than regular workshops (only £15.00), have low-ish numbers and offer solid technical foundations designed to give you something to work on and new directions in your dancing. They do not rely on moves and are suitable for all levels of experience. Unfortunately, due to time constraints, I don't run them as often as I would like.
The best value for you would be to book a week-ender (which means more money upfront) but offer a more immersive experience. The next Focus Residential is on the 23rd/25th March in Kirriemuir and is a 2 nights, all inclusive (Dinner, Bed & Breakfast + all workshops, tea-dances and parties) deal. If you book early, you can get the Early Bird Discount: £99.00 (instead of £119.00).

I'm finalizing the programme as we speak, but the current schedule looks like:


Friday 23rd March:
• PRE-DINNER WELCOME PUNCH at 6.30pm in the Lobby.
Come join us for a welcome drink of Punch to get the week-end started and get to meet everyone.
• DINNER: 7.00pm
• FRIDAY NIGHT PARTY: 9.00pm ‘til late (DJ: Tiggerbabe)
Fun Class at 9.30pm

Saturday 24th March:
• BREAKFAST: served between 9.00am and 10.00am
• SATURDAY WORKSHOPS:
- 10.30am-11.30am - CONNECTION / LEAD & FOLLOW.
- 12.00pm-1.00pm - SPINS & TURNS
- 2.00pm-3.00pm - FOOTWORK & STYLE
• 3.00pm to 6.00pm TEA-DANCE
• DINNER: 7.00pm
• SATURDAY PARTY 9.00pm-late (DJ Steve the Tramp)
Fun Class at 9.30pm

Sunday 25th March:
• BREAKFAST served between 9.00am and 10.00am
• SUNDAY WORKSHOPS:
- 11.00am-12.00pm - ADVANCE CONNECTION
- 12.30pm-1.30pm: MUSICALITY - DANCING TO THE BEAT.

Franck
22nd-January-2007, 06:14 PM
So, bearing in mind that the number of workshops I could attend (factoring in travel etc) would be limited at the moment. Which workshops would give me the best improvement in my dancing over the shortest period of time?

I seem to have hit my plateaux at an alarmingly low altitude :sick:I meant to add as well that if you can't do workshops, visiting parties & classes in other areas, would allow you to take any teacher (myself included) aside for 5 minutes and get a 'mini-private lesson' at no extra cost!

Lee Bartholomew
22nd-January-2007, 06:17 PM
To add to Francks comments,

most dancers don't mind showing you how the done a move or sharing their knowledge.

clevedonboy
22nd-January-2007, 06:23 PM
If you can get a partner - try some Ballroom / Latin (or find a class where you don't need a partner) - it's generally quite cheap and you learn a good dollop of technique quite quickly that will stand you in good stead for just about any dance.

If you feel adventurous (and decide AT isn't your thing) try a few Lindy classes

Chef
22nd-January-2007, 06:45 PM
To add my endorsement of technique workshops to the others already on this thread.

It wasn't until I started doing techniques workshops that understood why so many things had been going wrong for so long. It formed a turning point for me in that I understood why things had been going wrong and what I needed to do to change what I was doing. Sometimes the subtle things unlocked things that I had found difficult and other changes had to be more major. It was all made that bit more difficult because I had to unlearn so much of what I had been doing.

As I understand more elements of the underlying techniques needed in dance it makes it easier for me to do the things that I want. After an initial feeling of going backwards as you unlearn stuff and put the new stuff in its place then the following progress is much faster.

So the anser from me would be to do technique workshops over moves. There is no point know lots of moves - all of which you can do cringingly badly (something you only realise afterwards).

When should one start doing technique workshops? The moment that you realise that a lack of technique is a barrier to your progress (assuming you want to progress rather than staying where you are and just having fun).

A while ago I was sitting with a friend and we were watching a dancer called Nigel Anderson. Friend remarked how it was great that he could dance to the music like he understood what the music was going to do and fit his dancing to it. I told him that Nigel teaches classes on understanding the structure of music and musicality. Freind then stunned me by saying "I had been to one of those classes and the first 5 minutes were just listening to music and counting the beats and bars out. There were no moves at all so I left". All I could say to friend was that was why Nigel could dance like that and he couldn't.

If you want to dance like someone (presumably better) then knowing what they know would be a good start. To nick someone elses signiture - it's more than moves.

Gav
22nd-January-2007, 07:04 PM
I cannot despite my best intentions improve with the one class a week I'm currently doing and at the moment I'm in the situation where more than one class a week is out of the question. (sometimes 1 class a fortnight is difficult to be honest :tears:)

I've been there Beo and I know just how frustrating it is. I spent about the first 9 months doing 1 a week and it was sooooo annoying being stuck, while those who had more spare time were zooming ahead. I'm lucky in that I now have lots more spare time, I just need to liberate the cash to be able to afford it now! :rolleyes:

You are lucky though, having technique workshops available. We have nothing like that around here and I've always felt that without a good technique as a foundation, learning more moves won't make you a better dancer.

under par
22nd-January-2007, 07:09 PM
I was thinking how I really should make a concerted effort to improve my dancing.

I cannot despite my best intentions improve with the one class a week I'm currently doing and at the moment I'm in the situation where more than one class a week is out of the question. (sometimes 1 class a fortnight is difficult to be honest :tears:)



I seem to have hit my plateaux at an alarmingly low altitude :sick:

Beowulf you are not the only leader who struggled at the beginning.

Everyone learns at different speeds and some learn in different ways.

I never progressed in my dancing until I realised the benefits of recording all the moves taught on paper before the end of the evening and the the added benifit of dancing on consecutive nights.

My plan went along the lines of writing out in my own long hand how each of the 4 moves worked . I then tried to practice the 4 moves in fresstyle repeatedly. Next night record new moved ... pravtice during freestyle... when bored of 4 moves sit out a track and pick out 2 of previous nights moves to add to next 3 dances (or until bored!) then sit out a track read about previous nights other 2 moves and put them into next few dances. now continue to practice all 8 moves.

Next night repeat the process .. do lesson.... practice ad nausem new moves...when bored re-read yesterdays and pick 2 to add to new dance.. when bored sit out reread 2 more to add in..

if you could persevere for 4 nights you will identify 16 moves of which you will find 4 or 5 are just not for you.... leaving you 11 or 12 you have now practiced loads and know well.

using the record of moves as a prompt for those times when you get bored by sitting out and making yourself introduce a new move or moves to the next track will improve your ability to have more variety within your dancing each night.

There is nothing worse than being bored with your own moves so this system encourages you to do something positive when you feel like that.

As far a s workshops are concerned, they really are mostly and extended lessons and if you don't have a tools for recalling what you have learned they can be just as frustrating.... so again you will need to record the bits you like and how they work for you.

If you could manage just 3 weeks of 3 or 4 consecutive nights doing what I have suggested above you will find that you will have a fairly comprehensive list of moves written long hoand on loads of bits of paper.

This list will generally be long hand how it works for you descriptions... these can slowly be prescied ?sp down to a shortened one line entry of the moves you get on with.

I personally list all my moves prefixed with the teachers name who taught it...I find this is a good tool to jog memory.

So I have Franck blues foot sweep move.

Viktor open door move

Leclerc back to back etc.

i also subcategorised the moves as left hand leads, Right hand leads and 2 hand leads.

Once confident its a seperate challenge to dance your 9 left hand moves only or only 2 hand moves

Learning loads and loads of moves will not make you a great dancer.. but if you can learn the moves you get on with really really well and learn how to use all in different sequences you will find yourself becoming more inventive or innotative within your dancing.

Neither a single lesson nor a single workshop will change a novice on its own.

It is the appliance of a regime of learning (of which mine is only one, personal to me, but which I offer to all) which will enhance your muscle memory and personal confidence to apply yourself and use the moves that you have learned well in time to the music.

Somewhere on this forum I have written about " That night" when I personally stopped thinking about which move next, which move next , which move next ....... and started moving myself in time to the music which was being played ( not very well to start with!!) but it was a momentous moment for me and my dancing.

The good news for all leaders starting along the path of learning modern jive...if I, Under Par who had never danced and never listened to music all his life, who had 2 left feet and was tone deaf can improve... then anyone else can to.

Practice practice practice.

As far as technique learning is concerned some aspects you will pick up as you do your lessons but all the time you are worrying what move to do next there isn't much time for technique. When you plateau and are confident of your moves use workshops ,the forum and internet to read about dancing and try to add the little gems of technique you find into your next dances.

weekenders are also great for dancing loads.. Tip from me do not do too many lessons ... the ones you do do , write down the moves immediately after the class and then find a partner to practice practice practice for an hour or 2..... then use it during the many hours of freestyle that night..

good luck

SuzyQ
22nd-January-2007, 07:19 PM
Hmm I love dancing with people like Nigel who listen to the music and interpret ... it is great (although most guys would get a slap if they used all the same interpretative methods as Nigel!).

If you look at the best dancers, their moves are often simple but they way they are danced is different.

As a follow, I prefer fewer moves ... and better technique. As a lead I appreciate it is really really hard to achieve!

First place to start for me as a lead is trying to hit breaks in the music! Did a fab workshop on hitting breaks on each beat of the first move. Very useful.

Getting some more dance styles under your belt would probably help too.

Suzy

under par
22nd-January-2007, 07:26 PM
ps. I can highly recommend Francks Focus workshops ..especially Focus on Feet:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: great day in Stirling:clap:

Freya
22nd-January-2007, 07:37 PM
Beo I know exactly how you feel! I'm On a plateaux (sp?) at the moment! some nights I still have a great time but I don't feel as if I'm getting anywhere at the moment! And in trying to improve I'm thinking too hard about what I'm doing!

So I had a chat with Franck about it at the Tea Dance and he had some very good suggestions! What he did stress was that it isn't easy and you have to be prepared to put in the work! The teachers are there to help you...Not just with that weeks or last weeks moves buit to help you learn! And as a friend reminded me (love you Genie!) their there to be used!

I think that a mixture of the workshops would be a good idea! A moves one to get some moves you really like fixed in your head and then technique ones to get you dancing fantastically! Then you can alter the moves to suit you! It no longer matters if you do them correctly!

Hope this helps!

God I must be bored if I'm actually posting something sensible? ;)

Lynn
22nd-January-2007, 08:22 PM
I would say technique - definitely. If you can get along to any workshops that Franck is doing on connection I would recommend those. Excellent stuff.

And a weekender is an excellent learning curve. You have more time to absorb and put into practice what you are learning.

frodo
22nd-January-2007, 09:06 PM
After posting/ reading this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11228)
So I thought I'd ask for some advice. To get the most out of very little, would I be best to go to moves workshops (say the Intermediate 1 ,2 and 3 classes) or should I concentrate on doing what i already know better by doing some of the technique courses (such as Franck's widely praised and highly recommended "Focus on" workshops?) or perhaps a particular mix of both?

I think one problem with moves workshops is you're less likely to have people convenient to practice with, as workshop may be drawn from many weekly classes.

Also there are even more moves to remember - it is one thing reviewing the moves of a 40 min weekly class - a bit more of an effort for a 4hr workshop.

So I think they're worse than classes for retaining moves.

I think moves workshop are worthwhile only if one of:-

A) Had particular moves I wanted to learn / was having trouble with.
B) A reasonable quality DVD or video was available so I could review it.
C) I could repeat the exact same workshop at a later date. If I forgot it the first time it wouldn't be money down the drain - I'd pick it up easier the second time.
D) Doing it together with a partner or people I had lots of opportunity to practice with later.

frodo
22nd-January-2007, 09:11 PM
Technique, easily. ...


I would say technique - definitely....
Technique may be a better long term investment.

However if you're looking for the "best improvement over the shortest period of time" improving technique may have the disadvantage of going backwards before you go forwards.

robd
22nd-January-2007, 10:30 PM
The instinctive response is to say 'Technique' on a similar reasoning as the ' teach a man to fish or give him some fish' moral, parable, fable whatever it is. However a little further thought made me want to add two things

* I think technique needs further definition. What do we mean by technique in this context? All moves that I have seen taught required some technique, however rudimentary, to execute.

* If we assume technique to be the teaching of components, for want of a better word, that are reusable then workshops do not have to be one or the other, they can encompass both. One of the first workshops I attended was a Ceroc Intermediate II Cerocshop taught by Paul Harris (Jive_P on the forum). He covered the featured 12 moves but did not teach them by rote (as happened with Intermediate I taught to me a month or so later by another teacher in the same franchise) He broke them down into common components, covered lead and follow and how the moves featured could be varied/extended. His demo on the day was a bit ropey but I have to say that workshop had a big impact on the direction in which I took my dancing. I also try to get to Amir's monthly Jango workshops and these also, to my mind teach me good, solid technique but also allow me to take away a few new moves each month.

Robert

Lynn
22nd-January-2007, 11:20 PM
* If we assume technique to be the teaching of components, for want of a better word, that are reusable then workshops do not have to be one or the other, they can encompass both. One of the first workshops I attended was a Ceroc Intermediate II Cerocshop taught by Paul Harris (Jive_P on the forum). He covered the featured 12 moves but did not teach them by rote (as happened with Intermediate I taught to me a month or so later by another teacher in the same franchise) He broke them down into common components, covered lead and follow and how the moves featured could be varied/extended. His demo on the day was a bit ropey but I have to say that workshop had a big impact on the direction in which I took my dancing. I also try to get to Amir's monthly Jango workshops and these also, to my mind teach me good, solid technique but also allow me to take away a few new moves each month. Those both sound like a good combination of technique and moves. Often moves are taught with little technique mentioned - either because of time restrictions or because the teacher simply doesn't teach technique. Or moves are used as a method of teaching technique (almost sneaking it into the lesson!).

That first workshop you mentioned with Paul, eg, sounds like it was as much about giving move 'tools' as moves and therefore would help in understanding how and why moves work.

MartinHarper
22nd-January-2007, 11:30 PM
If you're looking for the "best improvement over the shortest period of time" improving technique may have the disadvantage of going backwards before you go forwards.

New moves have the same thing. For example, suppose I have a repertoire of 12 moves I know well and can lead wel, so 100% of my dancing consists of well lead moves. If I now go to a moves workshop and learn four new moves, suddenly only 75% of my dancing consists of well lead moves, and the remaining 25% is innnovative but pants.

Andy McGregor
23rd-January-2007, 12:05 AM
"I had been to one of those classes and the first 5 minutes were just listening to music and counting the beats and bars out. There were no moves at all so I left". All I could say to friend was that was why Nigel could dance like that and he couldn't.It sounds like you need some new friends. How could you sit with this unbeliever?:what:

Franck
23rd-January-2007, 01:33 AM
The instinctive response is to say 'Technique' on a similar reasoning as the ' teach a man to fish or give him some fish' moral, parable, fable whatever it is. However a little further thought made me want to add two thingsSo really, what you want is moves with technique :wink:

Seriously, I agree with you completely. New moves are very important, and can be a refreshing and inspiring tool for anyone stuck at a plateau...

Moves (when taught in conjunction with good technique) also offer an easier path to practice specific techniques.

Everyone needs new directions to explore in their dancing, and discovering a new move can open new Freestyle opportunities (especially for men who get bored of their own repertoire) and re-ignite your enthusiasm.

Chef
23rd-January-2007, 11:55 AM
It sounds like you need some new friends. How could you sit with this unbeliever?:what:

Some of the people that I know and count as friends can, in some resepcts, seem completely beyond hope (eh Andy) in others.

I was an unbeliever once but there came a time when I saw the direction that I wanted my dancing to go in and I found the teachers that could help me understand what I needed to do. For each of us the direction of our dance journey is going to be different but if someone likes some aspect of what I am doing then I am happy to help them, in the first instance, and tell them which lessons to do and the teachers that I found most useful.

That is about as much as I can do. I can tell people what I found useful and the teachers who taught me in a way that I could understand. I can also tell them that it is not a quick fix and that you have to persevere through the times when you feel that you are going backwards instead of forwards and just feel like giving up.

It is like so many things in life. If you ask yourself "why am I not rich, why am I not slim?" the answer to myself is usually - because I don't really want it enough. If I wanted it enough I would do what it takes.

I can offer advice, if asked, but it is up to people to place a value on that advice and to decide if they want the results enough to do what it takes.

This is why my friend stunned me. He wanted the results but he wasn't prepared to put the work in and he just didn't seem to understand the connection between the two.

Beowulf
23rd-January-2007, 12:08 PM
Focus workshops (shame you missed the one in Aberdeen yesterday)

Was Travelling up from London sadly :( (I.e. sad as in I didn't want to come back)


PRE-DINNER WELCOME PUNCH

Not again.. just the other day I walked into B&Q and this guy in an orange top asked me if I wanted decking.. Luckily I got the first blow in. :D

Scotland seems a very violent place all of a sudden :wink: :rolleyes:

Seriously though, Will have to keep my eye open for one of your workshops next time. A workshop weekender is probably impractical this year at least due to financial constraints.

Gadget
23rd-January-2007, 02:10 PM
I think that the first thing you need to do is find out what you want your dancing to look/feel like: try to identify things that other folk do that you want to or somethng you try to do and it dosn't always work like you expect.

Once you've done that {and that is the hardest bit IMHO}, you then need to work out how to get rid of the glitches or smooth stuff down or whatever. Input from teachers/friends/etc can help here.

Then you need to practice. Simply 'practice' on it's own is no good - you have to practice things that work or keep subtally changing something with every repetition untill it does work.

People keep saying "I want to improve" without specifying exactly what they want to improve - discover this and it makes the whole 'improvement' thing worth while:
Just now I want to improve my placement - I want to place my foot and step onto it so the rest of my body is in the right place without stretching, bending, shuffling, sliding or having to lead my partner to accomodate my errors.
I want to tighten up on my orientation - I try to dance in quarters, moving and/or facing in 90º segments. Most followers drift right - I want to try and accomodate/addapt to this in my lead while keeping my own orientation crisp.
I want to get my timeing right with my feet so i can lead more with leg contact.
I want to find more things to do from an embrace position. (or close blues hold if you prefer ;))
...Etc

:rolleyes: who's going to say something about AT then? ;)

TheTramp
23rd-January-2007, 02:17 PM
:rolleyes: who's going to say something about AT then? ;)

I don't want my dancing to be influenced in any large way by AT.

How's that? :na:

Rachel
23rd-January-2007, 03:01 PM
ps. I can highly recommend Francks Focus workshops ..especially Focus on Feet:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: great day in Stirling:clap:Absolutely! From a follower's perspective (i.e. in making recommendations for a lead), I'd say technique every time - especially Franck's lead & follow workshops, if any are coming up. These are famous &, I gather, also went down a storm (oops!) at the recent teachers' update.

Also, to save money, see if you can beg or borrow some of the weekender dvd's to watch Franck's workshops from those. Just try and focus on one technique at a time and apply it whenever you are dancing until it feels comfortable and instinctive before moving on to the next thing.

I'm afraid I don't know you, BW, or your dancing. But a man (or woman) who has great leading skills has the potential to do anything. Someone without these skills could learn all the moves & musicality in the world, but will never be able to properly implement them in freestyle.

Rachel

David Bailey
23rd-January-2007, 03:45 PM
I don't want my dancing to be influenced in any large way by AT.

How's that? :na:
Join us.... join us... resistance is futile....

Beowulf
23rd-January-2007, 04:45 PM
I'm afraid I don't know you, BW

S'ok.. not many people would own up to knowing me ;) even I don't acknowledge myself in the mirror in the morning :wink: :D

TheTramp
23rd-January-2007, 05:49 PM
S'ok.. not many people would own up to knowing me ;) even I don't acknowledge myself in the mirror in the morning :wink: :D

I know you! So there :na:

spindr
23rd-January-2007, 08:43 PM
*If* you have a choice -- pick something that you're likely to use. E.g., if your local followers aren't receptive to subtleties of technique, then you might be better concentrating on moves.

SpinDr

SuzyQ
23rd-January-2007, 10:12 PM
Of course a follower being unreceptive is always the problem rather than a lead being confusing?!

Might be worth mastering the art of following in order to see how it feels from the other side of the fence ...

Still maintain technique is more important than moves …

MartinHarper
23rd-January-2007, 11:59 PM
Of course a follower being unreceptive is always the problem rather than a lead being confusing?!

That's not what he or anyone else said.

Freya
24th-January-2007, 12:00 AM
*If* you have a choice -- pick something that you're likely to use. E.g., if your local followers aren't receptive to subtleties of technique, then you might be better concentrating on moves.

SpinDrHey I'm one of the followers up here? Errrm hang on that statement could be true then!


Might be worth mastering the art of following in order to see how it feels from the other side of the fence ...
Ha ha ha :rofl::rofl::rofl: Spin Dr master following! thats Like me having a Serious dance with him! :wink:

Gadget
24th-January-2007, 01:32 PM
Hey I'm one of the followers up here? Errrm hang on that statement could be true then! Could be... but not for you hon :flower: :hug:

Beowulf
24th-January-2007, 01:49 PM
Hey I'm one of the followers up here? Errrm hang on that statement could be true then!


Could be... but not for you hon :flower: :hug:

:yeah: I've never had any problems leading you Hunny :) You are a very good follower .. and a remarkably adept lead too. And you know something? ... ... ... I hate you for making it look so easy :wink:

Only kidding sweetheart :hug:

Genie
24th-January-2007, 01:56 PM
Hey I'm one of the followers up here? Errrm hang on that statement could be true then

:sick: It could indeed

Anyway, Beo, I could suggest the same thing to you that I did to Freya:

Lisa and Trampy or other Ceroc teachers... talk to them.

They are lovely people who are more than willing to offer advice, dance with you, attempt to identify problems with you and offer any encouragement and inspiration you need.

I hope you got the chance to chat to Trampy last night. Sorry I wasn't there :(

Twirly
24th-January-2007, 04:29 PM
Not surprisingly, Beo and I have talked about this quite a lot, and I think it’s great that he’s asking for advice – and wonderful that so much has been given. :clap:

The main feedback seems to be to learn technique. True it’s important, but he already does a pretty good yo-yo, am not sure that improving his technique so that his yo-yo is even more perfect is really going to help him get over the boredom of the yo-yo! :na: He’ll just wind up with a set of technically excellent beginners moves, but fall asleep whilst dancing.

Maybe a bit of “layering” is what is needed here. Learn a few new moves, remember them (I thought the advice about writing them down was excellent, though of course he has to do it Geek-style and use the PDA!!:rolleyes:) , then invest in some technique? Then a few more moves, then a bit more technique.

For what it’s worth Beo – I like the way you dance. I think you’ve already got a pretty good basis for musicality, better floorcraft than many I’ve danced with, you move well and you lead clearly. And I’m not just saying that as your more-than-dance-partner. :wink:

MartinHarper
24th-January-2007, 04:37 PM
Maybe a bit of “layering” is what is needed here. Learn a few new moves, remember them (I thought the advice about writing them down was excellent, though of course he has to do it Geek-style and use the PDA!!:rolleyes:) , then invest in some technique?

The thing is, I'm not convinced that moves taught in moves workshops are any more memorable than moves taught in regular classes. More expensive, sure.

Another solution for learning new moves is some form of DVD/video, that one can watch and practice repeatedly to really hammer the featured moves into the grey matter.

Beowulf
24th-January-2007, 05:05 PM
The thing is, I'm not convinced that moves taught in moves workshops are any more memorable than moves taught in regular classes. More expensive, sure.

Another solution for learning new moves is some form of DVD/video, that one can watch and practice repeatedly to really hammer the featured moves into the grey matter.

I see where your coming from, but When I started dancing 1st time round (before the 3 year absence) I did a beginners workshop and I found that intensively training a set of moves benefited my dancing considerably.

We had Lorna taking the class, and she injected a bit of musicality technique into the class, trying to get us to step on the beat which I think I still have with me today (have been told by several people my musically is good)

I still think learning a few more moves wouldn't hurt, and being deeply immersed in an intermediate 1 workshop would be beneficial I think.. especially if as mentioned above, I get a chance to repeat it later as a refresher.

But I had a great chat with Trampy last night :respect: which gave me some good ideas. As he said, forget trying to remember the entire routine. do one move from the routine twice in every dance and then at the end of the year I'll have a repertoire of an extra 30 or 40 moves :clap:

and erm.. yeah honey, the geek is strong in this one, as I was sitting at the table last night watching some dance move videos on my PDA :) nothing like refreshing before I do the move :)

Genie
24th-January-2007, 07:02 PM
Good to hear you have targets. So much easier to improve your dancing and feel better if you have a target and a way to get there.

Now if only I could get myself into gear and do the same :p

ducasi
24th-January-2007, 07:12 PM
The thing is, I'm not convinced that moves taught in moves workshops are any more memorable than moves taught in regular classes. More expensive, sure.
In a typical 4 hour workshop all the leads and followers will have time to learn and practice each move (let's say an average beginner or intermediate workshop teaches 12 moves) for around about a quarter of an hour (allowing for stops and other stuff.)

They will also get the chance to repeat the move over and over again through the 4 hour period. During a class you may get a chance to do each move maybe around a dozen times. (If you're not being rotated off the dance-floor every few minutes...) During a workshop, you have the chance to try the move many more times than that – I'd guess, on average, about 50 to 60 times.

When learning the move, they will have a teacher standing next to them, or leading or following them to make sure they are performing the move right. Don't see that very often in a typical class...


Another solution for learning new moves is some form of DVD/video, that one can watch and practice repeatedly to really hammer the featured moves into the grey matter.
The big difference between a workshop and a DVD is that you don't need to supply your own partner to learn from a workshop.

Ghost
24th-January-2007, 10:15 PM
Totally different angle.....

As befits the Dark Princess of the Geeks, you've got a web-cam right? Video yourself dancing. play it back. Scream loudly with frustration, throw stuff, have some chocolate. Then look at one thing you want to change eg posture, how far you're stepping back, whatever. Try it again, video yourself. repeat 'till it's better.

After each class video yourself doing the intermediate moves. Use the footage as a reference. You can also add your own verbal notes as you do it eg "Ok so step back, then the turny bit coming next, followed by the twisty bit, then step back"

Next time you have Cerocers round, get them to show you moves that work. Either get them to be videoed, or video yourself doing it.

Skip the workshops entirely for a while and instead use the money to get a private tuition in a few months time. (Pretty much comparable to workshops in cost down here - not sure about up there though).

Find one move that makes you smile (If you're really stuck pm me - it's a closely guarded secret). Find one move that makes women smile (ditto or ask Freya about copyright infringement :na: ) . Use these to take the edge off when you're dancing. It'll make the whole thing more fun rather than a chore.

SuzyQ
25th-January-2007, 12:39 AM
That's not what he or anyone else said.

Long history between two Drs ... his post could be interpretted in this way without stretching your mind too far!



Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzyQ
Might be worth mastering the art of following in order to see how it feels from the other side of the fence ...

Ha ha ha Spin Dr master following! thats Like me having a Serious dance with him!

Wasn't actually suggesting SpinDr should master following ... was suggesting that might be a way that Beowulf could have an insight into what works from the lady's point of view.

SuzyQ

Jhutch
25th-January-2007, 01:22 AM
In a typical 4 hour workshop all the leads and followers will have time to learn and practice each move (let's say an average beginner or intermediate workshop teaches 12 moves) for around about a quarter of an hour (allowing for stops and other stuff.)

They will also get the chance to repeat the move over and over again through the 4 hour period. During a class you may get a chance to do each move maybe around a dozen times. (If you're not being rotated off the dance-floor every few minutes...) During a workshop, you have the chance to try the move many more times than that – I'd guess, on average, about 50 to 60 times.

When learning the move, they will have a teacher standing next to them, or leading or following them to make sure they are performing the move right. Don't see that very often in a typical class...



Agreed:) In a class you sometimes get the feeling that you didn't really understand a move - although you may be able to muddle through it sort of on-time you just know that it will be difficult to lead in freestyle. However, in a workshop you do it lots of times and the smaller teacher:pupil ratio should mean that the teacher can see when you are doing things wrong and give you advice.

I think one important thing with a moves workshop is to try and go to as many freestyles or classes (for the freestyles afterwards at least) as possible in the week afterwards. One thing about a workshop (from a man's point of view) is that the women there will know what move you are doing as they will have been shown it too. There may be some freestyle bits too but they will still be sub-consciously expecting it. Also, it helps them 'bed-in' a bit more. You may learn them fine on the day but if you don't put them into practice soon then they may just evaporate:sad:

There is also the fact that a lot of moves are variations on each other. If your workshop covers moves that are different to each other then you will find that you have good basis for learning lots of similar moves

Jhutch
25th-January-2007, 01:40 AM
Can i just say what a good thread this is?:clap: :clap: :clap:

I would add to Mr Under Par's earlier advice about writing down moves - having just come back from 6 weeks hardly going at all i am struggling to recall quite a few moves:blush: and am finding myself quite limited in freestyle:blush: (even more so than normal:eek: ). Straight away when you get back after a class is best IMO - a few times i have thought, 'oh, i'll do that at some point tomorrow' only to find that by the next day i cant remember what we did (although maybe if i am thinking that then they probably aren't in my memory enough to be worth trying to do in freestyle anyway?:confused: )

I know i am going to sound like a complete idiot when i say this but how exactly does technique differ from the ability to do a move? If you can do a move correctly then there must be some aspect of your technique that is correct? So, by technique do you mean the non-move/non-connection bits, or is it a case of learning something that will make the move less, um, mechanical?:confused:

(I am aware that there are a variety of different technique lessons out there)

Beowulf
25th-January-2007, 10:50 AM
I know i am going to sound like a complete idiot when i say this but how exactly does technique differ from the ability to do a move?

Not a silly question at all. I'd say IMHO that the ability to do a move is just knowing which hand movement, body movement comes next in sequence. Like walking you know left right left right left right etc.

Technique is taking those basic movements and giving them a little style, knowing how fast/slow to move a part, how far to step back, etc.

you can walk without rhythm (handy on Arrakis but not anywhere else :wink:) or you stomp down the street slouched over like an adolescent teen. Or you can apply a little technique, and the humble walk becomes a precise military march or John Travolta's "Staying Alive" Strut :)

Technique is what makes the moves look good.

Franck
25th-January-2007, 11:20 AM
Technique is what makes the moves look good.That's true, though for me, Technique is more what makes a move feel good!
In fact, I would go beyond the above and say that technique is what makes any move possible, when leading / following in Freestyle (i.e. not dancing a choreographed or predictible set of moves).

To answer Jhutch, Technique involves many aspects, including (but not exclusively):

• Connection (not the sensual or romantic kind), i.e. a constant thread of connection separate from the lead.

• Leading skills: being able to lead your partner in a clear and smooth (without surprises or doubt from the follower's perception)

• Following skills: providing a responsive inner frame allowing you to follow smoothly and without timelag whilst retaining connection.

• Momentum: Controlling and understanding yours and that of your partner's

• Sensitivity: having a light connection and lead, learning how to lead or follow dramatic changes of speed & direction with a feather touch (or indeed no touch at all).

• Balance & Weight distribution: Knowing which foot your partner is balanced on, which foot is free to step, feeling the readiness of your partner to change direction...

• Posture & self awareness: Working on a good posture, frame, body position, strength and flexibility(to look better, but also to spin / turn better, move (walk) without appearing to be falling or plodding).

• Footwork: Having a wide vocabulary of footwork patterns to be able to lead, follow and interpret music better.

• Musicality: Assuming you have the above to a reasonable level, being able to hear, use and interpret the music.

• Isolation: As you add musicality and style to your dancing, being able to isolate specific style additions (footwork, hand positioning, body rolls & pops, etc...) without affecting the connection.

• and more :D

All the above are generic techniques, each can be divided into many more topics!

So as you see, technique is like a Pandora's box, once you open it, you get more than what you bargained for.

Mezzosoprano
25th-January-2007, 11:39 AM
When I started dancing last May, my friend said..."come along, you'll love it, it's a great stress reducer".. that's true and I love going to the Ceroc class but as a mother of two who works full time I find it so hard to get to things like workshops. I desperately want to improve my technique - which I know can be sloppy - I can only go to one class a week because that's what we have and the nearest place for another class is approx 2 hours drive away. Solution to the problem? Don't know! However... there are a couple of guys who go to the class who do write down the moves and practice during the rest of the week.. works for them!

I wanna get good enough to dance like Freya and Tiggerbabe! That's called setting your sights high :nice:

MartinHarper
25th-January-2007, 11:40 AM
How exactly does technique differ from the ability to do a move?

Consider dancing the First Move without any knowing any technique, and then dancing the First Move after both dancers acquire all the relevant techniques. In the first case, all the pieces are there. There's the coming together, the twist in and out, the turn, the return, all present and correct. What's missing, that we find in the second case? Control and communication.

Control. With sufficient technique (for both dancers), the leader has the possibility to precisely control all aspects of all elements of the move. That turn, for example - how fast is it? How many beats does it take? Does it start slow and speed up, or does it start fast and slow down? Is it completely smooth, or does it tick round like a clock? Does it stay on the spot, or does it travel? If it travels, in which direction, and how fast? What foot/feet is the follower spinning on? Is the turn lead with a "halo", or is it a "crank turn", or something else? What hand grip do the couple have before, during, and after the turn? How close are the couple during the turn? How much force is there? Does the turn end square, or with overturn, or underturn?

Communication. With sufficient technique (for both dancers), the follower has the possibility to change all aspects of all elements of the move, and to communicate those changes to the leader. For example, the follower might change a smooth turn into a clock-ticking turn, and the leader will be able to feel this change through the connection and immediately adapt his dancing and his planned next move to complement that change.

Gadget
25th-January-2007, 02:11 PM
Saying technique = control + communication may be corect, but the technique is in the how to control/communicate and knowing what to control/communicate.

When we start, moves are taught in segments of "move hand from A to B"; so the hand is moved from A to B.
Then timeing is inserted: the hand must be at point A now and point B then; so the hand is moved in a straight line from A to B hopefully in time.

Then there are other things that muddle it, especially your partner!
- You are moving from A to B on one time, but your partner is lagging behind or jumping ahead or both. Technique is learning how to either match their timing or compensate in yours to get them into sync with you.

- You are moving from A to B but your partner insists on going via C. Technique is learning how to divert them from going to C or how to change your movement so that C is where you intended to go.

- You are dancing to the music, but your partner seems to be dancing to something else. Technique is listening for what they are dancing to and matching it, or finding ways to convey to them what you are dancing to.

- You try to lead something and your partner does something else. Technique is both learning what you were doing (or not) that your partner was reacting to and how to recover from it as if you planned it all along.

-...
In summary, "technique" covers the skills used in adapting to your partner. {IMHO}

I think that Beo has the skills in how to communicate and is getting there on control. {:wink:} It's just lacking a bit on the what to apply it to and when to apply it.

Beowulf
25th-January-2007, 02:38 PM
so the hand is moved in a straight line from A to B hopefully in time.

or if you're Gadget.. you move from A to B through a Hyperspace conduit (or is it L-Space?) I think Gadget is the only person I've met who's mastered the infinite improbability dance.


I think that Beo has the skills in how to communicate and is getting there on control. {:wink:} It's just lacking a bit on the what to apply it to and when to apply it.

erm.. thanks.. (I think :confused: sorry the A, B and C's confused me.. I keep thinking it's algebra and trying to solve it.. but with Gadgets equations I keep ending up with imaginary numbers as answers. :sick: )

Genie
25th-January-2007, 06:28 PM
or if you're Gadget.. you move from A to B through a Hyperspace conduit (or is it L-Space?) I think Gadget is the only person I've met who's mastered the infinite improbability dance.


Mastered it? He invented it. :rolleyes:

Anyway, having danced with you honey, I would say personally that all you lack is a good number of moves that you can fall back on when you are stuck (or when your partner does something to distract you) that don't involve the yoyo for a minute and a half. I believe your technique and style will improve as you go, although I most certainly recommend the workshops. I like the way you dance, you don't leave me with the impression that reality has had to shift sideways and get a stiff drink in order to cope :wink: So just some moves really lodged in there to stop you getting bored, would make a big difference.

Enthusiasm and inspiration will do more for your dancing than any number of classes and workshops. :love:

Freya
25th-January-2007, 07:09 PM
I wanna get good enough to dance like Freya and Tiggerbabe! That's called setting your sights high :nice:

Wow! I'm very flattered! I'm afraid I'm not sure who you are from your forum name??

Beowulf
26th-January-2007, 05:20 PM
Freya and Genie are both truly excellent dancers. I'm totally ashamed to say I've never managed to have a dance with Tiggerbabe yet though. :blush:

Mezzo soprano, hopefully we'll get a chance to meet and dance.. once I've learnt a few more moves first though.. and mastered the techniques behind then as well .. obviously.. :wink: