Social Dips, Drops & Aerials on a busy dance floor [Archive]

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 03:42 PM

I forget all the details - it was a while back. What I remember was ... social dance floor, minor aerial, collision, snap, off to casualty.

Thing is - an aerial doesn't even have to be badly executed to be dangerous (although the majority of aerials I've seen on social floors have been badly executed, for some easy-to-guess-at reason). All it needs is someone moving into the wrong place at the wrong time.

any move can be dangerous if someone is in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I know of someone who got knocked out at a dance after going to the bar and tripping over a table leg.

Yes there are times not to even do social drops or aerials, but if you have any sense of floor craft these moves shouldn't be performed. A look before you leap policy should come in to effect (excuse the pun)

Social drops are created for a social floor and therefore shouldn't take up all that much room.

With regards to them being badly executed, I have seen someone perform a swan on a girl just because he had seen me do one, and planted the poor lass on her face. these people should be shot (theroeticaly of course)

With regards to the woman (or follow!!!!!) stepping on every beat. I don't think that many dancers do. With regards to the comment Good dancers step on every beat, this is cert not my experiance of dancing with "Good Dancers". Maybe i'm hanging out with the wrong crowd :sad:.

A poll Maybe?

My personal opinion......

Modern Jive at beginners level tends to be taught to move on the beat as described by Andy. Over time beginners turn in to intermediate and start to learn other styles of dancing, either by attending classes (tango, ballroom etc) or by watching other intermediates.

Intermediates then get influenced by these other styles and people and put them in to their way of dancing.

Intermediates then become "advanced" (I hate that term for dancers) and sometimes become teachers.

Teachers then start teaching beginners to move on beat. Intermediate lessons / workshops then have moves in influenced by these other styles and so the process repeats.

It's for this reason Modern Jive is a progressive style of dancing. No other style has the influences in it that modern Jive has. Modern Jive is not a dance in itself. It is a collection of dances.

My definition of Modern Jive:- A collection of dancers with different dance styles. Not a dance in itself. More of a social gathering.

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 03:48 PM

Yes there are times not to even do social drops or aerials, And one of those times would be on a busy floor...

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 03:52 PM

And one of those times would be on a busy floor...

Yeah had that part missing from that sentance before I mentioned the floorcraft bit.

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 03:56 PM

Yeah had that part missing from that sentance before I mentioned the floorcraft bit.No, I'm sure you mentioned aerials and busy floors somewhere...

There are plenty of social drops and aerials that can be done on a busy floor and are no more of a danger to other dancers than a catapult or first move.

:whistle:

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 03:58 PM

No, I'm sure you mentioned aerials and busy floors somewhere...

:whistle:

Yeah you miss the point.

There are aerials and social drops that can be done on busy floors. Then there are times when the floor is just too busy for these.

You need to be able to read the situation.

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 04:03 PM

There are aerials and social drops that can be done on busy floors. Then there are times when the floor is just too busy for these.Anyone who does an aerial on a busy floor is an egotistical half-wit who is more concerned with showing off than the safety and welfare of his partner and the dancers around him.

You need to be able to read the situation.Oh, I think I'm reading the situation just fine, thanks.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 04:10 PM

Anyone who does an aerial on a busy floor is an egotistical half-wit who is more concerned with showing off than the safety and welfare of his partner and the dancers around him.

Oh, I think I'm reading the situation just fine, thanks.

You ob don't know all that many aerials or drops. Loads and loads of social ones that can be done on a fairly busy (but not overcrowded) dance floor. That is unless you have people dancing directly above you of course.

maybe you should work on this.

Anyway back to topic........

NZ Monkey

22nd-January-2007, 04:26 PM

You ob don't know all that many aerials or drops. Loads and loads of social ones that can be done on a fairly busy (but not overcrowded) dance floor. That is unless you have people dancing directly above you of course.

maybe you should work on this.

Anyway back to topic........Mmmmm...I like popcorn....

Would you like a red flag as well Woodface? :devil:

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 04:26 PM

You ob don't know all that many aerials or drops. Oh dear. Given the option of remaining silent and having people think he's a fool, or opening his mouth and removing all doubt, Woodface unerringly chooses the latter course.

Tessalicious

22nd-January-2007, 04:27 PM

You ob don't know all that many aerials or drops.
...snip...
maybe you should work on this:rofl: Oh the irony - open mouth, insert foot and keyboard.

Caro

22nd-January-2007, 04:28 PM

You ob don't know all that many aerials or drops. Loads and loads of social ones that can be done on a fairly busy (but not overcrowded) dance floor. That is unless you have people dancing directly above you of course.

maybe you should work on this.

lost cause.... :rolleyes: :rofl:

pass on the popcorn NZ Monkey, this is going to be entertaining...

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 04:34 PM

Think what the prob is, is the definition of a busy floor.

I have agreed in my other posts that there are times when aerials and drops should not be done. When the floor is just too busy. revert to dips, leans etc

Then there are times where the floor can be busy, but clear enough to perform social drops and social aerials. Ballroom Drop? Nose bleeder etc

Then again there are times where the floor is clear and you can do nigh on whatever aerials /drops you want. Spinning Swan, Ice Breaker,tumble etc

Im guessing that DF is a specialist in aerials? I don't know. Never met him.

If he is, im sure he knows plenty of these moves that can be done on a busy but not too busy floor.

Then again, not the first time he has argued with me. Seems to be a recurring thing at the mo. :what:

Ghost

22nd-January-2007, 04:39 PM

What's an example of an aerial that could be performed safely on a busy floor?

Caro

22nd-January-2007, 04:42 PM

What's an example of an aerial that could be performed safely on a busy floor?

the doughnut, surely, as you don't need much more floor space than the footprint of the leader... :whistle: :devil:

I hope that popcorn is sweet, NZM ?

NZ Monkey

22nd-January-2007, 04:43 PM

the doughnut, surely, as you don't need much more floor space than the footprint of the leader... :whistle: :devil:Unfortunately this is only a safe aerial on a busy dance floor if there are no off-duty police officers on the side watching.....:wink:

It has butter and everything Caro

Chef

22nd-January-2007, 04:43 PM

Im guessing that DF is a specialist in aerials? I don't know. Never met him.

There is a bit of a clue in his avatar.

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 04:45 PM

Im guessing that DF is a specialist in aerials? I don't know. Never met him.Won a couple of national titles. Done a few cabarets. :shrug:

If he is, im sure he knows plenty of these moves that can be done on a busy but not too busy floor.Yes, if I were an egotistical half-wit.

You'll have to search hard to find anyone who actually knows what they're doing who will advocate doing aerials on a busy social dance floor.

In fact, the only genuine experts in Modern Jive (David and Lily Barker) go further:

They are dangerous
You should not do them with someone you don't know
You should learn them off the dance floor.

Probably the most important one is *never* do any lifts or drops on a social
dance floor. They are just too dangerous.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 04:46 PM

What's an example of an aerial that could be performed safely on a busy floor?

Depends on how busy the floor is. A swan is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy.

A lady flip is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy

A man flip is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy.

A back pass is fine providing the floor is not TOO busy.

A shoulder site is fine providing the floor is not TOO busy

See where im coming from? Any move is dangerous if there is not the space to do it including first move, catapult, even the arm jive can result in an elbow to the ribs.

Ghost

22nd-January-2007, 04:50 PM

Depends on how busy the floor is. A swan is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy.

A lady flip is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy

A man flip is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy.

A back pass is fine providing the floor is not TOO busy.

A shoulder site is fine providing the floor is not TOO busy

See where im coming from? Any move is dangerous if there is not the space to do it including first move, catapult, even the arm jive can result in an elbow to the ribs.

It's worth bearing in mind that I don't know aerials :flower:

I think the arguement against is the potential injury. I'd have to really work at it with an armjive to break someone's ribs with my elbow. Someone being knocked out of an aerial 7 feet up can get broken limbs, spine and / or neck. Different magnitude of risk.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 04:50 PM

Won a couple of national titles. Done a few cabarets. :shrug:

Yes, if I were an egotistical half-wit.

You'll have to search hard to find anyone who actually knows what they're doing who will advocate doing aerials on a busy social dance floor.

In fact, the only genuine experts in Modern Jive (David and Lily Barker) go further:

I totally agree that they should not be done when the floor is too busy. Have never disagreed with that and have reinforced that in my posts.

It all depends on the definition of a busy floor.

A floor can be busy but still free enough to be able to safely do certain moves.

A floor can be busy and be over crowded where aerials should def def def not be done.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 04:55 PM

It's worth bearing in mind that I don't know aerials :flower:

I think the arguement against is the potential injury. I'd have to really work at it with an armjive to break someone's ribs with my elbow. Someone being knocked out of an aerial 7 feet up can get broken limbs, spine and / or neck. Different magnitude of risk.

yep but then there are different levels of aerials at different height etc.

I would only do certain aerials with certain dance partners that I trust and that trust me. They have been practised off floor and in many cases using crash mats etc. These would not be done on a busy floor.

There are mini aerials that I have learnt in class. perfectly safe little moves that have a very small height and very small space requirements.

It's more the drops that can be done on busy floors over aerials.

Trouble

22nd-January-2007, 04:55 PM

Its not just dips, aerials that are the problem on a busy floor. You also have the flouncy dancers, the dancers that shove their elbows out and do flamboyant hand movements whilst hitting and shoving you in the body in someway. Last night at Berko ( i must say a lovely venue ruined by being packed to the hilt as usual) i was quite literally trodden on, elbowed and shoved 9 times. They also had the usual ignorant ass's doing the drops but i thankfully didn't see any aerials. Aerials are never appropriate on a dance floor busy or not they should be saved for competitions full stop. Most people think SHOW OFF anyway. :D :D

MartinHarper

22nd-January-2007, 04:57 PM

What's an example of an aerial that could be performed safely on a busy floor?

I'd feel reasonably comfortable seeing someone else lead this aerial (if they did it well) on a social dance floor:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3795957958100717393

On a busy social floor, or one with lots of beginners, that might be too much.

Ghost

22nd-January-2007, 04:59 PM

yep but then there are different levels of aerials at different height etc.
So by aerial you mean "her feet leave the ground" rather than "She goes up in the air"? eg if I lifted my partner an inch off the floor, that would still be an (mini) aerial?

Trouble

22nd-January-2007, 05:01 PM

I'd feel reasonably comfortable seeing someone else lead this aerial (if they did it well) on a social dance floor:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3795957958100717393

On a busy social floor, or one with lots of beginners, that might be too much.

you see to me, that move looks absolutely rubbish. Whats the point. your better off doing a lovely mini dip, looks more impressive. :flower:

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 05:03 PM

So by aerial you mean "her feet leave the ground" rather than "She goes up in the air"? eg if I lifted my partner an inch off the floor, that would still be an (mini) aerial?

technically, or so i've always been told, any lift, no matter how high, where your partner (or your) feet come off the ground is an aerial of sorts.

The magnitude of the aerial can differ from small jumps to full on over the head sumersaults.

Now do you see where im coming from?

Ghost

22nd-January-2007, 05:05 PM

technically, or so i've always been told, any lift, no matter how high, where your partner (or your) feet come off the ground is an aerial of sorts.

The magnitude of the aerial can differ from small jumps to full on over the head sumersaults.

Now do you see where im coming from?
Think so - you're saying you might lead a small jump on a busy floor if floorcraft suggested it was safe, but you wouldn't lead full on over the head sumersaults on a busy floor?

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 05:06 PM

I think the arguement against is the potential injury. I'd have to really work at it with an armjive to break someone's ribs with my elbow. Someone being knocked out of an aerial 7 feet up can get broken limbs, spine and / or neck. Different magnitude of risk.That's one point. There are a couple of others:

The big difficulty with an aerial is that during it, your control and ability to avoid trouble is compromised. You may be able to do a swan safely, but can you get your partner out of harm's way when someone else decides to do a travelling move straight at you? It takes very little time for someone to cover 5 meters in a Columbian. The typical "spacing" on a busy floor is less than half that.

The second issue is the risk to the dancers around you - particularly as it's a risk they haven't agreed to take. Most people do not treat Ceroc/MJ as an extreme sport, and having someone crash into them during an aerial is not part of the bargain.

The other issue is the whole "ego" thing. Why do you feel the need to do a potentially dangerous move in non-ideal circumstances? In almost all cases, the answer is "to show off". Which is a pretty pathetic reason, all told.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 05:07 PM

Think so - you're saying you might lead a small jump on a busy floor if floorcraft suggested it was safe, but you wouldn't lead full on over the head sumersaults on a busy floor?

Exactly.

It all comes down to floor craft.

I would never do a back pass on a overcrowded busy bumper car floor, but on a quiet floor, thats a different matter.

Trouble

22nd-January-2007, 05:08 PM

That's one point. There are a couple of others:

The big difficulty with an aerial is that during it, your control and ability to avoid trouble is compromised. You may be able to do a swan safely, but can you get your partner out of harm's way when someone else decides to do a travelling move straight at you? It takes very little time for someone to cover 5 meters in a Columbian. The typical "spacing" on a busy floor is less than half that.

The second issue is the risk to the dancers around you - particularly as it's a risk they haven't agreed to take. Most people do not treat Ceroc/MJ as an extreme sport, and having someone crash into them during an aerial is not part of the bargain.

The other issue is the whole "ego" thing. Why do you feel the need to do a potentially dangerous move in non-ideal circumstances? In almost all cases, the answer is "to show off". Which is a pretty pathetic reason, all told.

kinda stepped on my point there David :flower:

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 05:10 PM

That's one point. There are a couple of others:

The big difficulty with an aerial is that during it, your control and ability to avoid trouble is compromised. You may be able to do a swan safely, but can you get your partner out of harm's way when someone else decides to do a travelling move straight at you? It takes very little time for someone to cover 5 meters in a Columbian. The typical "spacing" on a busy floor is less than half that.
The second issue is the risk to the dancers around you - particularly as it's a risk they haven't agreed to take. Most people do not treat Ceroc/MJ as an extreme sport, and having someone crash into them during an aerial is not part of the bargain.
The other issue is the whole "ego" thing. Why do you feel the need to do a potentially dangerous move in non-ideal circumstances? In almost all cases, the answer is "to show off". Which is a pretty pathetic reason, all told.

You might want to note DF, that I rarely do aerials. And do only do them in safe situations. If people feel that a certain move is showing off, be it an aerial or grounded move, then it is them that has a problem.

We should not have to dance to the watchers pleasure just ours and our partners.

David Bailey

22nd-January-2007, 05:12 PM

You ob don't know all that many aerials or drops.
:rofl:

Hold on, I'm just off to tell Amir he clearly knows nothing about teaching, I'll be back in a second...

EDIT: no, on second thoughts, I'll let woodface do it for me

MartinHarper

22nd-January-2007, 05:17 PM

you see to me, that move looks absolutely rubbish. Whats the point. your better off doing a lovely mini dip, looks more impressive. :flower:

It wasn't the move I wanted to show, but there's a dearth of videos of small safe aerials on the 'net. It's all fast acrobatic stuff, or ponderous extended lifts.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 05:21 PM

There are some nice little "non showoff" mini aerials that are fine for a busy (but not too busy) floor.

Then again there are some that are awfull. Agree with Trouble on that example. :grin:

Beowulf

22nd-January-2007, 05:26 PM

This is interesting.

I don't know/do dips/drops or aerials etc and to be frightfully honest I only have only the vaguest idea what they are. However, I have seen what I'd call aerials done on the dance floor in Aberdeen. (One of our more prominent members dancing with the teacher at the Christmas party dance to El Tango del roxanne :wink:)

Needless to say the Aberdeen dance scene even at it's busiest isn't as busy as some places (I know Fulham is busier.. and that wasn't even a very busy night)

I always think they look impressive and would love to do a workshop for some of the easier drops and dips etc (whichever is which.. terminology escapes me) but after reading this I'm wondering if it's worth it to do so, as from what I've gathered it's practically impossible to use them safely unless the dancefloor is almost completely deserted.

(and in defence/support of the prominent forumite and his teacher follower.. there were only about 3 couples on the dance floor IIRC at the time.. )

so exactly When and Where is a good time to do any sort of drops/dips/seducers/leans/aerials/antennae/satellite's dishes/lifts/presses and/or throws?? :wink:

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 05:31 PM

{snip}

There are loads of work shops out there on social aerials. Would recommend it but go with someone you dance with a lot as you can't do them on any old partner.

You can do them safe in most places but if a floor gets too busy then forget it.

thats part of what this argument is about. I think there are aerials out there that are safe to do on a busy (yet not too busy) floor. Others disagree point blank. Others agree.

The best thing to do is learn some then use your own judgment.

TheTramp

22nd-January-2007, 05:33 PM

With regards to them being badly executed, I have seen someone perform a swan on a girl just because he had seen me do one, and planted the poor lass on her face. these people should be shot (theroeticaly of course)

Why only theoretically??

There are aerials and social drops that can be done on busy floors. Then there are times when the floor is just too busy for these.

You need to be able to read the situation.

Maybe you should become a DJ. If you're that good at reading the floor. :na:

You ob don't know all that many aerials or drops.

I just wanted to join the crowds who went :rolleyes: here.

I have agreed in my other posts that there are times when aerials and drops should not be done. When the floor is just too busy. revert to dips, leans etc

Or maybe, just maybe, to dancing?

Then again, not the first time he has argued with me. Seems to be a recurring thing at the mo. :what:

Well, we wouldn't keep arguing with you if you didn't keep on being such a [insert your own choice of word here]

What's an example of an aerial that could be performed safely on a busy floor?

Ummm. I don't know. But it ends in a Vince-slap

I would only do certain aerials with certain dance partners that I trust and that trust me. They have been practised off floor and in many cases using crash mats etc. These would not be done on a busy floor.

We can quote you on this?

Yliander

22nd-January-2007, 05:43 PM

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 05:44 PM

and how exactly do you define TOO busy???

When it's not safe to do these moves,

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 05:45 PM

You might want to note DF, that I rarely do aerials. And do only do them in safe situations. You've already said enough for me to be convinced your judgment of what is "safe" is dangerously flawed. Funny thing - it's always the men who insist their aerials are perfectly safe and never the ladies. Can't think why that might be...

I always think they look impressive and would love to do a workshop for some of the easier drops and dips etc (whichever is which.. terminology escapes me) but after reading this I'm wondering if it's worth it to do so, as from what I've gathered it's practically impossible to use them safely unless the dancefloor is almost completely deserted.

When and Where is a good time to do any sort of drops/dips/seducers/leans/aerials/antennae/satellite's dishes/lifts/presses and/or throws?? My rough rule of thumb is that you have to be prepared to take full responsibility for keeping the move safe - including if someone behind you suddenly decides to dance straight at you and bumps you forcibly. This is particularly true with aerials - if there's an accident and you were doing an aerial, it doesn't matter what the other couple were doing, it's your fault. Basically, with aerials, you need the space to be able to put the move down before the collision occurs (with drops, there is some ability to brace and absorb the impact).

This is a lot more margin than most people realise - certainly more than you'd get on a busy floor. And you should then add some more margin for safety anyhow. Even then, you have to be attentive at all times. Most "aerials couples" will have stories of the time there was only one other couple on the floor who still managed to invade their space while they were doing a lift.

When you screw up, (and do aerials enough and you will screw up), apologise profusely, kick yourself for being an egotistical idiot, and increase the safety margin for next time.

If you have other people on the floor, any move where you are not in complete control of the follower's weight and momentum is particularly dangerous. The first move jump is not a difficult move, but once the follower "jumps", there is really nothing either of you can do to control the landing. If someone moves into the landing spot, they're gonna get hurt. Spinning lifts are really bad for this - it's hard to see people moving into the danger zone, and it's very hard to stop the move Any time you see someone do them on a social floor, you can see the people around having to spread out and make space. Given the floorcraft of the average MJ dancer, that is stupidly dangerous.

Also bear in mind that even if you know you can do the move safely, the people around you probably don't know that. And so they are having to make space around you, watching anxiously to see if someone is going to get dropped on their head etc. It's not terribly fair to make them spend an evening like that.

TheTramp

22nd-January-2007, 05:46 PM

When it's not safe to do these moves,

So, it's a judgement call then?

Why do I suspect that your judgement on the matter, and everyone else's judgement on the matter, might well be different? :whistle:

Yliander

22nd-January-2007, 05:48 PM

When it's not safe to do these moves,but when is that? TOO Busy is a rather vague as far as terminology goes. What are your paramaters for too busy? are they same as mine? DF's? Trampy's?

Caro

22nd-January-2007, 05:50 PM

When it's not safe to do these moves,

:rolleyes: when are you going to get that the whole issue on this thread comes from the fact that you generally consider safe what most people consider unsafe?

So, as a rule of thumb, people will tend to agree on the etiquette that 'drops and aerials shoud not be performed on a social dance floor' . Just to prevent the odd moron from thinking: 'hey that's safe enough for me here, let's do a drop/aerial', and risking to injure himself, his follow, or other dancers.

That's also why we have speed limits on the roads... but I guess you're a good enough driver not to need them on a not so busy road... :whistle:

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 05:53 PM

So, it's a judgement call then?

Why do I suspect that your judgement on the matter, and everyone else's judgement on the matter, might well be different? :whistle:

Well this is it.

I don't think my judgment of what is safe when is any different to yours, DF's or infact most peoples.

Maybe DF or Trampy can answer this, truthfully, have you ever done an aerial or drop, no matter how big or small, on a dance floor when there are other dancers on the floor (even if it is just one couple)?

Maybe we should stop doing any moves on a dance floor as all moves have some element of danger if done incorrect or if a collision occurs. Maybe a system of one couple on the floor at a time, would be better.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 05:56 PM

:rolleyes: when are you going to get that the whole issue on this thread comes from the fact that you generally consider safe what most people consider unsafe?

So, as a rule of thumb, people will tend to agree on the etiquette that 'drops and aerials shoud not be performed on a social dance floor' . Just to prevent the odd moron from thinking: 'hey that's safe enough for me here, let's do a drop/aerial', and risking to injure himself, his follow, or other dancers.

That's also why we have speed limits on the roads... but I guess you're a good enough driver not to need them on a not so busy road... :whistle:

Thats not the case. I consider a majority of drops and aerials to be unsafe. I have said that all along right from the start.

What my argument is, Is that there are a few moves that can be performed on a busy'ish floor. It all comes down to how busy the floor is and what the move is.

I wouldn't drive at 40 on a motorway because it is safer, but 70+ is over the top.

Caro

22nd-January-2007, 06:03 PM

I consider a majority of drops and aerials to be unsafe.

So you actually agree that you lead your follower(s) into unsafe moves???

This is the icing on the cake surely...? :rolleyes:

*makes mental note never to dance with woodface and gets back to work*

TheTramp

22nd-January-2007, 06:06 PM

So you actually agree that you lead your follower(s) into unsafe moves???

Nononono. When he does them, they're always perfectly safe, only with followers who he's practised them with extensively, in rooms where there's masses of space. Haven't you been reading his posts.

It's other people who do the dangerous ones. In limited space. Not Woody....

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 06:13 PM

Nononono. When he does them, they're always perfectly safe, only with followers who he's practised them with extensively, in rooms where there's masses of space. Haven't you been reading his posts.

It's other people who do the dangerous ones. In limited space. Not Woody....

To go back a few posts.

Trampy, have you ever done a drop or an aerial on a dance floor with other people on? No matter how busy or how big the move was?

A lap sit is a good example. A little mini aerial. Is it dangerous to do one on a floor when there is even one couple about?

No it's not

Is it dangerous to do one when the floor is busy, No, as long as there is the space to do it.

Is it dangerous to do one when the floor is over crowded? Yes, potentialy.

It's all about the circumstances and what the move is.

Mary

22nd-January-2007, 06:19 PM

Can I join in?:devil:

There is one notable couple who would tell you from experience that as few as 2 couples on a social dance floor is too busy for doing aerials. The price for one of them was a broken arm or wrist. This couple, when teaching aerials will always stress that they should never be done on the social dance floor.

I have had complete stangers 'lead' (I use that word hesitantly) aerials with me on a busy social dance floor because they know I do some and have seem me perform them. I love doing aerials, I think they are great fun, but I am amazed at the stupidity of these guys for trying them on a partner they have never danced with before on a busy floor (or even a not very busy floor), and also the complete arrogance in assuming that I would be happy for them to chuck me around without bothering to check first.:angry:

However, if Woodface were referring to those Lindy-style mini-aerials which only count as an aerial because both feet leave the floor at the same time, albeit only an inch or two, then I would agree that these are OK. I am thinking of that one where the partner just does a little jump around - can't remember what it's called, and that one is lead rather than assisted/forced. Although from reading the preceeding posts it sounds like everyone is referring to 'proper' aerials.

M

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 06:25 PM

I don't think my judgment of what is safe when is any different to yours, DF's or infact most peoples.

Maybe DF or Trampy can answer this, truthfully, have you ever done an aerial or drop, no matter how big or small, on a dance floor when there are other dancers on the floor (even if it is just one couple)?What has that to do with doing aerials when the floor is "busy"? If you are now claiming that "even just one other couple on the floor" is busy, then although this may back up your earlier arguments, it seems a particularly unconvincing claim in it's own right.

From reading the preceeding posts it sounds like everyone is referring to 'proper' aerials.Yes.
A lady flip is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy

A man flip is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 06:27 PM

tsh

22nd-January-2007, 06:29 PM

At the last ceroc freestyle I went to, there was a class where some sort of first-move seducer type move was taught. The venue was full, and couples were probably elbow distance apart. I saw several heads coming within inches of each other, completely out of control - but it must have looked safe from the stage...

MartinHarper

22nd-January-2007, 06:35 PM

From reading the preceeding posts it sounds like everyone is referring to 'proper' aerials.

As I understand DavidF, he's including the First Move Jump mini-aerial in his condemnation of social aerials.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 06:39 PM

As I understand DavidF, he's including the First Move Jump mini-aerial in his condemnation of social aerials.

DF seems to have included any move that requires both ladies feet to be off the floor at any height, at any speed at any length of time unless they are done in a showcase environment.

If we follow this, lindy hop should be banned.

Still no response to my question as to whether he has done any mini aerials or drops on a social floor.:rolleyes:

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 06:42 PM

As I understand DavidF, he's including the First Move Jump mini-aerial in his condemnation of social aerials.I'd say it's unsafe on a busy floor, yes. Have you ever been at a busy Ceroc venue when the FMJ has been taught during the class? Every 30 seconds or so, someone around you will do the prep, and you have to look at where their pointing the girl and make sure you're out of the way. :tears: And I have seen collisions with this move (fortunately minor).

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 06:45 PM

I'd say it's unsafe on a busy floor, yes. Have you ever been at a busy Ceroc venue when the FMJ has been taught during the class? Every 30 seconds or so, someone around you will do the prep, and you have to look at where their pointing the girl and make sure you're out of the way. :tears: And I have seen collisions with this move (fortunately minor).

I have seen collisions with a basic first move that were not minor. Have been in a class where they have taught a columbian and every 30 secs you have to make sure that you don't have someone travelling in front of you.

A FMJ should be treated like any other. IMHO of course.

Mary

22nd-January-2007, 06:45 PM

I realise I have digressed from the discussion with my post. So two questions arise. What is the definition of a busy or not busy dancefloor. I guess that's almost the same as how long is a piece of string? And 'busy' would have a different value or definition for each aerial.

And just to reinforce DF's viewpoint and margin of error. There is one guy who has been dancing for years (I don't think he is a forum member) who I now try to avoid dancing with (although I've never refused :devil: )who does 'mini-aerials' on the social dance floor. For example he does a lift where the lady is facing away from the guy and he lifts her up in a straight line. The floor space taken up is the same as if they were both standing still in front of each other. The lady has good visibility and no risk of landing on someone when she is put back down. However, consider this. If another couple or person accidentally knocks into the guy from behind where he wouldn't be able to see it coming there is no way he is going to keep his balance so the amount of floor space taken up when the lady falls down (and he probably falls on top of her) is going to be that much greater.

So, if someone with the knowledge, expertise and experience of Woodface were to establish a rating system for all aerials (and dips and drops) then this would put an end to these arguments. For example, a swan might have rating of 4 where 4 is equal to x square feet per person (assuming everone else has reasonable floor craft of course :devil: );)

M

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 06:53 PM

DF seems to have included any move that requires both ladies feet to be off the floor at any height, at any speed at any length of time unless they are done in a showcase environment.Sigh. Now who's not reading other people's posts? What I said was that any move where you don't control the landing is particularly dangerous. (Though perhaps I should have said disproportionately dangerous. The point is, the FMJ is not, by itself, a even remotely dangerous aerial. But it becomes much more so in a social environment, because of the aforementioned lack of control).

If we follow this, lindy hop should be banned.Actually, most Lindy venues don't allow aerials on the social floor.

Still no response to my question as to whether he has done any mini aerials or drops on a social floor.:rolleyes:Yes, I have done aerials on a social floor. You, however, consider a "lady flip" to be safe on a "not TOO busy" social floor.

That is why I consider you dangerous.

Mary: David Barker once said he considered 5 meters a minimum safe distance when doing aerials.

Andy McGregor

22nd-January-2007, 07:26 PM

You ob don't know all that many aerials or drops. In case woodface doesn't know, David Franklin is a UK aerials champion :worthy: So is Mary :worthy:

Whatever they say about aerials should be taken seriously.

Andy McGregor

22nd-January-2007, 07:28 PM

If we follow this, lindy hop should be banned.At last a decent idea from woodface :wink:

MartinHarper

22nd-January-2007, 07:30 PM

Have been in a class where they have taught a columbian and every 30 secs you have to make sure that you don't have someone travelling in front of you.

I can't say I'd mind if The Columbian was banned from the social dance floor. They do have a habit of causing bumps.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 07:31 PM

Sigh. Now who's not reading other people's posts? What I said was that any move where you don't control the landing is particularly dangerous. (Though perhaps I should have said disproportionately dangerous. The point is, the FMJ is not, by itself, a even remotely dangerous aerial. But it becomes much more so in a social environment, because of the aforementioned lack of control).

Actually, most Lindy venues don't allow aerials on the social floor.

Yes, I have done aerials on a social floor. You, however, consider a "lady flip" to be safe on a "not TOO busy" social floor.

That is why I consider you dangerous.

Mary: David Barker once said he considered 5 meters a minimum safe distance when doing aerials.

A not too busy floor can be anything thats not too busy. Did I say to do it on a crowded floor. Would not do it if there was not PLENTY of space.

What you have said is that any aerial is dangerous on a social floor but now freely admit you have done them?

My argument, once again for those that cant read, is there are plently of little aerials that can be done safely provided the floor is not too busy.

I am cert not dangerous on the floor. If thats your pre-conception without meeting me then thats your problem.

TheTramp

22nd-January-2007, 07:32 PM

I can't say I'd mind if Columbians were banned from the social dance floor. They do have a habit of causing bumps.

I say we ban all South Americans! :na:

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 07:33 PM

In case woodface doesn't know, David Franklin is a UK aerials champion :worthy: So is Mary :worthy:

Whatever they say about aerials should be taken seriously.

I don't care who DF is or isn't.

Just because he says that any move where a womans feet lift off the floor slightly shouldn't be done on a social floor, should we stop doing this, teaching this?

You ever taught a mini aerial or lift Andy? If so will you stop doing so know just because DF says.

Too many Names in MJ.

Andy McGregor

22nd-January-2007, 07:36 PM

In case woodface doesn't know, David Franklin is a UK aerials champion :worthy: So is Mary :worthy:

Whatever they say about aerials should be taken seriously.And so is The Tramp. I know he's not joining in with the debate, or disagreeing with woodface, but, for the sake of completion I thought I'd mention this fact:whistle:

Andy McGregor

22nd-January-2007, 07:40 PM

I don't care who DF is or isn't.

Just because he says that any move where a womans feet lift off the floor slightly shouldn't be done on a social floor, should we stop doing this, teaching this?

You ever taught a mini aerial or lift Andy? If so will you stop doing so know just because DF says.

Too many Names in MJ.I do not teach any arials or lifts. I teach a social dance and I think they're antisocial and unecessary on a social dance floor. They're for display and cabaret purposes only. When I do a course on moves for cabarets I will teach them with the proviso "These moves, done on a social dance floor, can seriously damage your health and the health of those around you".

straycat

22nd-January-2007, 07:46 PM

DF seems to have included any move that requires both ladies feet to be off the floor at any height, at any speed at any length of time unless they are done in a showcase environment.

If we follow this, lindy hop should be banned.

Why?
(to expand on this question, what connection has this assertion got to do with Lindy?)

WittyBird

22nd-January-2007, 07:55 PM

Sorry I'm late guys, just back from the shop with some rope, although it doesn't look like Woodface needs it anymore, he's already done a pretty good job. :rolleyes:

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 08:08 PM

A not too busy floor can be anything thats not too busy. Did I say to do it on a crowded floor. Ghost asked:

What's an example of an aerial that could be performed safely on a busy floor?

Depends on how busy the floor is. A swan is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy.

A lady flip is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy

A man flip is safe providing the floor is not TOO busy.

A back pass is fine providing the floor is not TOO busy.

A shoulder site is fine providing the floor is not TOO busyWhy on earth did you give these examples as an answer to his question if you did not in fact consider them safe on a busy floor? Yes, "not TOO busy" is ambiguous, but to give them as examples when you are now saying "you need PLENTY of space" to do them? Do you really consider that a good, sensible, or responsible answer?

What you have said is that any aerial is dangerous on a social floor but now freely admit you have done them?No, what I have consistently said they are dangerous on a busy social floor. How busy is too busy? For a start, if you have to ask, then it's too busy.

Just because he says that any move where a womans feet lift off the floor slightly shouldn't be done on a social floorFor the record, where exactly did I say this?

straycat

22nd-January-2007, 08:09 PM

Sorry I'm late guys, just back from the shop with some rope, although it doesn't look like Woodface needs it anymore, he's already done a pretty good job. :rolleyes:

Thanks so much.
You've now put this image into my head of Woodface standing there on the gallows with a rope around his neck, going: "See??? I TOLD you social aerials were perfectly sa..." :rolleyes:

Minnie M

22nd-January-2007, 08:14 PM

........./snip/.....Actually, most Lindy venues don't allow aerials on the social floor.
:yeah:
I go to Lindy events quite a lot and I have never seen aerials on the social floor - in fact they don't even teach them at the weekend events

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 08:23 PM

I think the point is being missed.

One last time {sighs}

there are moves whether they be aerials /drops / grounded moves that can be done on a social floor.

There are moves whether they be aerials / drops / grounded moves that cant be done on a social floor.

It is up to the people dancing to decide which is done when. I know the difference between a social and a non social move, and most people dancing know the same.

It is a harsh opinion to say that some certain types moves should not be done on a social floor full stop. However, it is just that, an opinion.

My opinion however is that there are certain types of moves that can be done on a social floor if full care to ensure everyone safety is garanteed.

I will not do lifts or drops with any old dancer, no matter how good they are. Infact, I have had a few dancers moan because I haven't done them!!!

I will do lift / aerial / drops with dancers whom I have had a good knowledge of and where we both know how to do the move And then I will only do it in non crowded situations.

I have danced with many forumites and have been seen dancing by many forumites. Will any that have either seen me do non social drops on the floor let us know (SA excluded :yum:)

there is another argument here though over how busy is busy. To me busy is having a good space between dancers where you could safely take 5 steps or more before entering the path of another couple.

Too busy cuts this down to two steps.

Im sure everyone has their own opinion on how busy is too busy for these moves, but as im sure everyone will agree, safety comes first.

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 08:31 PM

Still waiting to hear where I said this... :rolleyes:

Just because he says that any move where a womans feet lift off the floor slightly shouldn't be done on a social floor

Freya

22nd-January-2007, 08:39 PM

I think the point is being missed.

One last time {sighs}Wow a definitive post from Woodface?

there are moves whether they be aerials /drops / grounded moves that can be done on a social floor.

There are moves whether they be aerials / drops / grounded moves that cant be done on a social floor.And who decides this? :devil:

It is up to the people dancing to decide which is done when. I know the difference between a social and a non social move, and most people dancing know the same. Do they? :whistle: There are some people who insist on doing stupid things!

It is a harsh opinion to say that some certain types moves should not be done on a social floor full stop. However, it is just that, an opinion.

My opinion however is that there are certain types of moves that can be done on a social floor if full care to ensure everyone safety is garanteed. It's hard to Guarantee safety on a dancefloor!!!!!! There are such things as mistakes and accidents that you will never be able to Guarantee won't happen! The female in the couple dancing near to you slips and falls into "your" safe space causing you to have to adjust position to avoid collision while you have lady in a "Little ariel" where do you land her? ok it's obvious I know nothing bout ariels!

I will not do lifts or drops with any old dancer, no matter how good they are. Infact, I have had a few dancers moan because I haven't done them!!!

I will do lift / aerial / drops with dancers whom I have had a good knowledge of and where we both know how to do the move And then I will only do it in non crowded situations.What a relief is this finally some sense?

there is another argument here though over how busy is busy. To me busy is having a good space between dancers where you could safely take 5 steps or more before entering the path of another couple.

Too busy cuts this down to two steps. at the start of the move this maybe so but what about the idiot that doesn't realise your about to do an ariel/drop and decides "Ah ha there's some space I'll do a nice little travelling step into it!" while your doing your move and suddenly the space is gone!

caro pass th popcorn over here before you give it back to NZ monkey!

22nd-January-2007, 09:13 PM

I can't say I'd mind if The Columbian was banned from the social dance floor. They do have a habit of causing bumps.

I say we ban all South Americans! :na:

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing more Brazilians on the dance floor...:whistle:

Only if they're doing safe aerials on a not too busy floor of course....:wink:

Am not sure why, but am reminded of the saying that used to go around the school playground...
Whilst holding your middle finger up in the air, in the direction of the recipient, and utter the words, "Jump, spin and I'll catch you..."

straycat

22nd-January-2007, 09:16 PM

I think the point is being missed.

Strongly disagree.

there are moves whether they be aerials /drops / grounded moves that can be done on a social floor.

Strike the word 'aerials' from that sentence, and I'd be inclined to agree. I'm a hardliner on this - I believe that aerials should not be done on a social floor. At all.

There are moves whether they be aerials / drops / grounded moves that cant be done on a social floor.

Agree.

It is up to the people dancing to decide which is done when. I know the difference between a social and a non social move, and most people dancing know the same.

Many inexperienced people think they know where this line is, and are wrong. Which is why I'm a hardliner on the matter. We do not permit aerials at our venues.

It is a harsh opinion to say that some certain types moves should not be done on a social floor full stop. However, it is just that, an opinion.

I fail to see what's harsh about it. Safety conscious, yes. Harsh, no.

My opinion however is that there are certain types of moves that can be done on a social floor if full care to ensure everyone safety is garanteed.

...

there is another argument here though over how busy is busy. To me busy is having a good space between dancers where you could safely take 5 steps or more before entering the path of another couple.

Are you seriously telling me that you'll happily do an aerial with another couple dancing only five feet away? People can cover that distance - and often do in a dance - in a fraction of the time it takes between you committing to your aerial, and completing it. Even if you perform the move perfectly, this is an accident waiting to happen.

Im sure everyone has their own opinion on how busy is too busy for these moves, but as im sure everyone will agree, safety comes first.

I couldn't agree more.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 09:22 PM

Are you seriously telling me that you'll happily do an aerial with another couple dancing only five feet away? People can cover that distance - and often do in a dance - in a fraction of the time it takes between you committing to your aerial, and completing it. Even if you perform the move perfectly, this is an accident waiting to happen.

Yes i am, but not a full on, over the head aerial that people are assuming I mean. Im talking a first move lap sit or jump turn out. where the aerial part takes less than a beat or two where it would be impossible for another couple to travel 5 feet in that time, esp if they are not already traveling.

straycat

22nd-January-2007, 09:25 PM

I don't care who DF is or isn't.

Sure ... so why waste time arguing with him? ;)

Too many Names in MJ.

Yep. Which makes for a lot of accumulated wisdom. Luckily we have quite a few of them who take the time to post their accumulated wisdom on this forum, and to share the considerable knowledge that they've gained over the many years they've been dancing.

As a relative newcomer to the dance, perhaps you might consider taking some of it on board, hey?

22nd-January-2007, 09:27 PM

Yes i am, but not a full on, over the head aerial that people are assuming I mean. Im talking a first move lap sit or jump turn out. where the aerial part takes less than a beat or two where it would be impossible for another couple to travel 5 feet in that time, esp if they are not already traveling.

Yeah, cos a slide wouldn't cover 5 feet.

Let's say someone is doing a plain old first move... to their left is some idiot (not that bad floorcraft ever happens, because everyone dances SOOOOOO safely) is about to crash into his partner.... being responsible for his partner, he decides to make a move sharpish to his right... to find some tosser half way through an aerial:eek:

But, it's only a first move lap sit, so being speared by a travelling high heel won't actually hurt that much.:flower:

straycat

22nd-January-2007, 09:28 PM

Yes i am, but not a full on, over the head aerial that people are assuming I mean. Im talking a first move lap sit or jump turn out.

Wow! What a coincidence! Me too!

where the aerial part takes less than a beat or two where it would be impossible for another couple to travel 5 feet in that time, esp if they are not already traveling.

Care to place a small wager on that?

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 09:33 PM

If some idiot decides to do a 5 ft slide into someone who is static, doing any kind of move, who's to blame?

It would be safer to get slid in to doing a lap sit that to get slid in to doing a dip. Argue that what you want but I know what I would prefer.

(anyway who does a slide with their feet up in the air?)

straycat

22nd-January-2007, 09:37 PM

If some idiot decides to do a 5 ft slide into someone who is static, doing any kind of move, who's to blame?

It would be safer to get slid in to doing a lap sit that to get slid in to doing a dip. Argue that what you want but I know what I would prefer.

Oh - so if an idiot collides with you during your little aerial, it won't hurt anyone (as opposed to a non-idiot, which could hurt plenty)? NOW I get it :rolleyes:

22nd-January-2007, 09:37 PM

If some idiot decides to do a 5 ft slide into someone who is static, doing any kind of move, who's to blame?

The idiot doing the aerial.

(anyway who does a slide with their feet up in the air?)

only someone doing an aerial would have their feet in the air...

Baruch

22nd-January-2007, 09:45 PM

In all the discussion about aerials, people seem to have missed this gem.

Then there are times where the floor can be busy, but clear enough to perform social drops and social aerials. Ballroom Drop? Nose bleeder etc

So you're seriously saying that you consider a ballroom drop safe to do on a busy floor? That is unbelievable. If that's your judgement of what should be regarded as safe, you're headed for a serious accident at some point.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 10:22 PM

In all the discussion about aerials, people seem to have missed this gem.

So you're seriously saying that you consider a ballroom drop safe to do on a busy floor? That is unbelievable. If that's your judgement of what should be regarded as safe, you're headed for a serious accident at some point.

:confused:{sigh} only if the music dictates it. :rolleyes:

Baruch

22nd-January-2007, 10:31 PM

:confused:{sigh} only if the music dictates it. :rolleyes:
Music "dictating" it is irrelevant to the present discussion. I'm talking about safety. If you think it's safe to do a ballroom drop (http://ccgi.dancecrave.plus.com/bb.php?singlemove=101) on a busy dance floor, then your understanding of safety is, at best, suspect.

David Franklin

22nd-January-2007, 10:35 PM

If some idiot decides to do a 5 ft slide into someone who is static, doing any kind of move, who's to blame?

The idiot doing the aerial.:yeah: It might not be entirely your fault, but there's no doubt you're the one who has to shoulder the responsibility.

:confused: {sigh} only if the music dictates it. :rolleyes: You think it's safe if the music dictates you to do it? :rolleyes:

You know, if noises in your head are telling you to do things, it might be time to seek medical help...

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 11:14 PM

Note the sarcastic smiley :rolleyes:

No you do not do a ballroom drop on a over crowded floor. You can do it if there is that space to do it safely. Same as any move.

Going to make a few points. These are just my opinions so feel free to rip them apart :rolleyes:. let me know if you agree (which you won't:yum:)

when deciding to do an aerial (mini) should not really be treated with any difference to a normal grounded move. You need to make sure it is safe to do the move and that any risk of danger is at a minimal.

Any move has the potential for injury if done incorrectly, or through collision.

Lifts, aerials drops should not be done unless it is safe to do so.

lifts, aerials drops etc should not be done with a "random dance partner" esp without asking first!!!!

lifts, aerials, drops can be done if there is the space room and safety gap to do them.

lifts, aerials, drops are not showing off, unless they are done in a cabaret.

FYI - I very rarely do any aerials (mini or otherwise), drops or lifts at all and when I do it is with one of my regular dance partners in plenty of space (and even then it's pretty rare). So therefore, if I don't perform these moves, am I danger?

Andy McGregor

22nd-January-2007, 11:15 PM

You know, if noises in your head are telling you to do things, it might be time to seek medical help...This reminds me of something a workmate said at our Christmas doo.

Me - "Martin, do you drink?"
Martin - "Only 'til the screaming in my head stops!"

But, to get back to the plot, and I really can't go back and find all the quotes from woodface: plus, I'm not sure his advice bears repeating.

There is nothing "harsh" about having rules at a venue. Those rules are there for reasons of safety and they are not the responsibility of dancers, they are the responsibility of the person who has written the health and safety document for the business. That person has a responsibility to ensure the safety of the people in his/her care. You must ask yourself the following questions

Will allowing ballroom drops increase the risk of injury?
Will there be more or less injuries if the lady/follower is allowed to fly through the air in a way that doesn't allow changes of direction after take-off?
etc,
etc?

It's all about judgement. And the judgement is that of the organiser who stages the event. Recently a dancer who occasionally attends our dances and has never attended our classes came to our venue and seriously injured a lady in a room in the venue that was nothing to do with us. He was attempting that swan move. The lady fell on her face and broke her jaw in two places, has had 3 operations and has been off work for months. This guy is, IMHO, a poor dancer, can only just hear the beat in pop music, bounces his hand (not always to the beat), travels when he spins, dances for himself, uses air-steps as a way of impressing the gallery, etc. However, some people tell him that they think he's a great dancer because of his lifts - he is very strong (think "Of Mice and Men"). I have told him that he is only welcome at our classes if he attends all the lessons and that he will be banned if I ever see him doing another air-step at any venue, not just ours. We've not seen him since and I hope we never do.

Safety is a prime concern. Modern Jive is a nice, social dance that doesn't have to contain air-steps or floor-level drops to be enjoyed at a social level. I have a question for woodface;

Why do you feel that drops, lifts and air-steps are necessary on a social dance floor?

MartinHarper

22nd-January-2007, 11:17 PM

I go to Lindy events quite a lot and I have never seen aerials on the social floor - in fact they don't even teach them at the weekend events

I was taught the Lindy equivalent of the First Move Jump at Rock Bottoms Lindy in Torquay. This was in a Beginner (or maybe Improver?) class taught by Andy and Rena.
I've never seen full aerials on the social Lindy floor, except in jam circles, but I have seen the occasional mini-aerial thing. Probably no more frequently than in Modern Jive.
On the other hand, drops and bigger dips seem much rarer in social Lindy.

To their left is some idiot ... is about to crash into his partner.... being responsible for his partner, he decides to make a move sharpish to his right... to find some tosser ....

Remove the judgement calls about idiots and tossers, and I'd say that this describes 99% of my bumps on the floor. Getting worries about couple A, and dancing evasively into couple B. The extension to couples C and D is left as an exercise for the reader.

Lee Bartholomew

22nd-January-2007, 11:22 PM

{snip} Recently a dancer who occasionally attends our dances and has never attended our classes came to our venue and seriously injured a lady in a room in the venue that was nothing to do with us. He was attempting that swan move. The lady fell on her face and broke her jaw in two places, has had 3 operations and has been off work for months. This guy is, IMHO, a poor dancer, can only just hear the beat in pop music, bounces his hand (not always to the beat), travels when he spins, dances for himself, uses air-steps as a way of impressing the gallery, etc. However, some people tell him that they think he's a great dancer because of his lifts - he is very strong (think "Of Mice and Men"). I have told him that he is only welcome at our classes if he attends all the lessons and that he will be banned if I ever see him doing another air-step at any venue, not just ours. We've not seen him since and I hope we never do.

did this actually happen in real life or just in your head when you were dreaming of me? lol

I have a question for woodface;

Why do you feel that drops, lifts and air-steps are necessary on a social dance floor?

I don't feel that way at all. As stated in past posts I very very rarely do them.

MartinHarper

22nd-January-2007, 11:23 PM

Which is more dangerous socially: a deep drop (eg ballroom drop) or a mini-aerial (eg first move jump)?

If I don't perform these moves, am I danger?

If you don't perform these moves, should you give advice on them?
(ya, I'll be over in the corner, taking the log out of my own eye)

Andy McGregor

22nd-January-2007, 11:29 PM

did this actually happen in real life or just in your head when you were dreaming of me?It really did happen. I posted a full report on here, but have no idea where it is to provide a HarperLink(tm).

I don't feel that way at all. As stated in past posts I very very rarely do them.This is like saying you hardly ever beat your wife :mad:

Andy McGregor

22nd-January-2007, 11:31 PM

Which is more dangerous socially: a deep drop (eg ballroom drop) or a mini-aerial (eg first move jump)?They're both dangerous socially. I don't need to choose which one I don't allow at my events.

Baruch

22nd-January-2007, 11:31 PM

Note the sarcastic smiley :rolleyes:

No you do not do a ballroom drop on a over crowded floor. You can do it if there is that space to do it safely. Same as any move.
You've changed your tune somewhat, then. It wasn't that long ago you wrote this:

Then there are times where the floor can be busy, but clear enough to perform social drops and social aerials. Ballroom Drop? Nose bleeder etcAs this was said in the context of a thread about dips, drops and aerials on a busy floor (your choice of words, not mine), my point still stands. Your idea of safety is not what most of us here would regard as safe. A floor does not have to be overcrowded to be too busy to perform a ballroom drop safely.

when deciding to do an aerial (mini) should not really be treated with any difference to a normal grounded move. You need to make sure it is safe to do the move and that any risk of danger is at a minimal.
I disagree. There is more potential for accidents with aerial moves than with floor moves, so they should be treated differently. The amount of space needed to do an aerial safely is IMO much bigger than the amount of space needed to do a basic first move safely, for example.

Any move has the potential for injury if done incorrectly, or through collision.

Lifts, aerials drops should not be done unless it is safe to do so.

lifts, aerials drops etc should not be done with a "random dance partner" esp without asking first!!!!

lifts, aerials, drops can be done if there is the space room and safety gap to do them.
These points I agree with, but having read this thread I strongly suspect that most people's interpretation of "the space, room and safety gap to do them" would differ from yours.

lifts, aerials, drops are not showing off, unless they are done in a cabaret.
They can be. Certainly I would suspect anyone doing lifts on a social dance floor of showing off.

FYI - I very rarely do any aerials (mini or otherwise), drops or lifts at all and when I do it is with one of my regular dance partners in plenty of space (and even then it's pretty rare). So therefore, if I don't perform these moves, am I danger?
If you don't perform them, of course not. But "rarely" is not the same as not performing them.

MartinHarper

22nd-January-2007, 11:40 PM

They're both dangerous socially. I don't need to choose which one I don't allow at my events.

Would you disagree then, with an organiser who allowed one but not the other, or a dancer who danced one but not the other?

Baruch

22nd-January-2007, 11:41 PM

It really did happen. I posted a full report on here, but have no idea where it is to provide a HarperLink(tm).
Here it is (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=324659&postcount=38), Andy.

Andy McGregor

22nd-January-2007, 11:48 PM

Would you disagree then, with an organiser who allowed one but not the other, or a dancer who danced one but not the other?It's none of my business what another organiser permits. But I would have a quiet word with anybody who did either one of those moves at one of my nights. But, if I had spotted dancers doing both moves at the same time, I would speak to the person doing the ballroom drop as I think that probably carries a greater risk of injury in a social situation - but I'd still have a word with the guy who was throwing his ladies through the air.

straycat

23rd-January-2007, 12:20 AM

did this actually happen in real life or just in your head when you were dreaming of me? lol

I am frankly horrified at this response :angry:
Have some negrep. You truly have earned it.

WittyBird

23rd-January-2007, 12:37 AM

Rope for sale - PM for details

TheTramp

23rd-January-2007, 12:46 AM

I think the point is being missed.

One last time {sighs}

I don't think that we're missing the point. We're just disagreeing with it. How totally immature, self-centred and egotistical to say that just because everyone disagrees with you, they must all be wrong, or not understanding you.

Yep. Which makes for a lot of accumulated wisdom. Luckily we have quite a few of them who take the time to post their accumulated wisdom on this forum, and to share the considerable knowledge that they've gained over the many years they've been dancing.

As a relative newcomer to the dance, perhaps you might consider taking some of it on board, hey?

Currently you appear to be mainly arguing with:

David Franklin - dancing at least 8 years of modern jive. Won the UK aerials championships, and several other medals for aerials.

Andy McGregor - dancing again at least 7 years of modern jive, and has competed and placed on a few occasions. Now runs successful nights in Brighton.

Straycat who has been dancing for a good number of years.

Various other people all with many more years of experience than you.

I know that if DavidB were still here, he'd be telling you what an idiot you were, and he's been dancing for longer than all of us put together, and won a few things here and there.

And I've been dancing for almost 8 years now (doesn't time fly!), and also won a few things here or there.

And you've been dancing for just over a year if I remember correctly. And want to argue a contrary stance....

Now. I do fully accept that sometimes a majority might mean that all the fools are on the same side. But this time it's not..... :flower:

David Franklin

23rd-January-2007, 12:48 AM

Here it is (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=324659&postcount=38), Andy.Oh God. I must have missed this the first time around. That is truly awful to read.

Worst of all is I'm pretty sure we all know who this is. And we've all known he's a menace when it comes to aerials on a social floor, and we've all been too "polite" to speak up about it. Lessons to be learned, I think.

Andy McGregor

23rd-January-2007, 12:49 AM

I am frankly horrified at this response :angry:
Have some negrep. You truly have earned it.:yeah:

I'm with you on this one. Anybody posting on a public forum in a way that encourages people to do anything that can risk injury others deserves neg rep :mad:

Andy McGregor

23rd-January-2007, 12:58 AM

Oh God. I must have missed this the first time around. That is truly awful to read.

Worst of all is I'm pretty sure we all know who this is. And we've all known he's a menace when it comes to aerials on a social floor, and we've all been too "polite" to speak up about it. Lessons to be learned, I think.We all know who you're thinking of. But, it wasn't him. I've not seen him recently, maybe he's found some other dance style to terrorise. Any sightings recently?

boardrider

23rd-January-2007, 12:59 AM

Most people have been discussing the risks. The majority have the right idea but are looking at it the wrong way. Try looking at the consequence instead of the risk.

The risk of something going wrong is probably the same as it is for a beginner executing basic moves, but the consequence is disproportionately higher. Regardless of how high your feet are off the ground.

Trust me on the feet thing and falling over (I teach judo). If your feet are off the ground and they get knocked out from underneath you; gravity wakes up, yawns, decides it's about time you stopped playing silly beggers and then sorts out a landing for you.

Andy McGregor

23rd-January-2007, 01:00 AM

Andy McGregor - dancing again at least 7 years of modern jive, and has competed and placed on a few occasions. Now runs successful nights in Brighton.This March I will have been dancing MJ for 10 years. And my first dance lesson was in 1977, 30 years ago, when I had a six-pack and more hair :tears:

TheTramp

23rd-January-2007, 01:14 AM

You're even older than I thought Andy! :na:

David Franklin

23rd-January-2007, 01:16 AM

We all know who you're thinking of. But, it wasn't him. I've not seen him recently, maybe he's found some other dance style to terrorise. Any sightings recently?No, but we've only been dancing at Jango for the last year or so.

Not sure if that invalidates my point or not. It could so easily have been him. On the positive side, it seems venue managers have made a stand. :respect:

Most people have been discussing the risks. The majority have the right idea but are looking at it the wrong way. Try looking at the consequence instead of the risk.Fair point. But in my experience, people who do aerials don't deny the consequences of a mistake could be serious - they deny that they might make mistakes, or that people around them might make mistakes. Thus the moves are "perfectly safe" when they do them. Me, I make all kinds of mistakes...

The risk of something going wrong is probably the same as it is for a beginner executing basic moves, but the consequence is disproportionately higher.I'm not sure this is actually true. Even disregarding the consequences, I'd say the chances of even an above-average couple having something "go wrong" (e.g. a slight stumble or a bump with an adjacent couple) during an aerial is actually higher than for a beginner. Of course, your main point remains - the chance of that escalating to a serious fall are much, much greater.

Freya

23rd-January-2007, 01:17 AM

You're even older than I thought Andy! :na:

You mean there's someone older and more worn out than You? :na:

TheTramp

23rd-January-2007, 01:18 AM

It doesn't seem possible, does it!

spindr

23rd-January-2007, 01:30 AM

I can easily cover 6'4'' distance -- I simply have to fall over.

And a decent heel slide will cover ~10 feet easily -- and in only 2 musical beats, or so -- *much* faster and smoother than a Columbian.

SpinDr

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 02:49 AM

1st off, sorry to Andy, Ob this did happen but the way it was written , i feel (with reference to the spins whilst traveling etc) made his comment out to look like me. I had a few PM's asking if it was me. No it wasn't.

Secondly, David has freely admitted he has done aerials on a social floor, yet when I suggest that a mini aerial if done correctly and safely on a social floor is OK i get ripped apart. Can someone (with out saying DF has this medal, that medal) explain why?

Thirdly, I have seen one accident with a lift which again like Andys was a Swan (Im wondering if it's the same person will PM Andy in the morning to find out). I have seen 100's accidents with other moves. I know it's a case of ratio but I know of one person who broke her ankle during an octopus.

Fourthly, I am no ego maniac. I might appear that way sometimes when I post but anyone who has danced with me regularly knows im am far far from that.

Finally, I have said that I do not do major aerials or drops on a crowded floor, I do not do non social drops on a crowded floor. I think where it has all gone wrong is where peoples definition of a busy floor varies. After that forumites just want blood (well a select few)

Baruch

23rd-January-2007, 02:52 AM

I do not do non social drops on a crowded floor.
So you'd define a ballroom drop as a social drop?

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 02:54 AM

So you'd define a ballroom drop as a social drop?

Nope to me anyhow there is a difference in a floor that is busy and one that is crowded.

It all comes down to judgment and sense. Have you ever done a ballroom drop on a floor with others on?

Ghost

23rd-January-2007, 02:57 AM

Nope to me anyhow there is a difference in a floor that is busy and one that is crowded.

Any chance of choosing a well known venue (as a lot of Forumites travel, especially to the weekenders) and using that to define terms. Or even say a hypothetical 5m by 20m room - how many people = busy, crowded etc?

Otherwise I think this is going to be like "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
(As many as wish too :wink: )

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 02:59 AM

Ok say a floor that would hold 100 people dancing. would say,

50 on floor busy

75 on floor very busy

100 crowded

100+ bumper cars. Would try to avoid dancing if poss.

Hope that helps.

Ghost

23rd-January-2007, 03:02 AM

Ok say a floor that would hold 100 people dancing. would say,

50 on floor busy

75 on floor very busy

100 crowded

100+ bumper cars. Would try to avoid dancing if poss.

Hope that helps.

Ok so if I've got this right (may not I'm about to go to sleep)

If there were 50 people you'd feel comfortable doing mini areials eg (sorry you'll have to insert examples)

whereas at full capacity you wouldn't do aerials at all.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 03:05 AM

Ok so if I've got this right (may not I'm about to go to sleep)

If there were 50 people you'd feel comfortable doing mini areials eg (sorry you'll have to insert examples)

whereas at full capacity you wouldn't do aerials at all.

Yep mini aerials as in lap sits and mini air steps (same things that get taught in intermediate classes all over the place)

whereas on a fuller floor, I wouldn't.

It's all a matter of space as I have said all along. Im against the argument that these moves should not be done full stop.

Baruch

23rd-January-2007, 03:09 AM

Nope to me anyhow there is a difference in a floor that is busy and one that is crowded.
So once again you've changed your tune.

It all comes down to judgment and sense. Have you ever done a ballroom drop on a floor with others on?
With others on? Yes. On a busy dance floor (which is the subject under discussion)? Definitely not. Certainly not with 50+ people, as in your example above.

Oh, and there are only two people I would do a ballroom drop with, and I've practised extensively with both.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 03:18 AM

So once again you've changed your tune.

With others on? Yes. On a busy dance floor (which is the subject under discussion)? Definitely not. Certainly not with 50+ people, as in your example above.

Oh, and there are only two people I would do a ballroom drop with, and I've practised extensively with both.

Have not changed my tune one bit. Please at least have the decency to read my posts in full if you are going to make negative comments. I have always maintained that stance.

There is only 2 people I would lead in to a ballroom drop and, like you, I have practised them at a decent depth. There are 3 people whom I would allow to lead me in to a ballroom drop and again have practised this.

Jamie

23rd-January-2007, 03:22 AM

:rofl:@ this thread.. omg, kept me entertained for ages!

under par

23rd-January-2007, 03:27 AM

:rofl:@ this thread.. omg, kept me entertained for ages!

does it continue throgh the night..... I need to plan sleep sometime :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Freya

23rd-January-2007, 03:31 AM

does it continue throgh the night..... I need to plan sleep sometime :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I certainly hope so! I'm unable to sleep!

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 03:33 AM

Nope. have pot of coffee on the go.

Andy McGregor

23rd-January-2007, 08:20 AM

Finally, I have said that I do not do major aerials or drops on a crowded floor, I do not do non social drops on a crowded floor. I think where it has all gone wrong is where peoples definition of a busy floor varies. After that forumites just want blood (well a select few)I think this is where we all differ. Woodface says he doesn't do these moves on a crowded floor. This qualification leaves him free to do those drops and major aerials :really: on a floor that is not crowded. And the definition of "crowded" is down to woodface. Many of us, including me, say these moves are not to be done on a social dance floor. We now depend on woodface for many things;

That his definition of "crowded" is correct.
That he can predict the movements of all dancers around him for the duration of an aerial or drop.
Than he can execute those moves in complete safety without risking injury to himself or his partner.

As it has been said earlier, I've been dancing a long, long time and I don't think I could do any of the above with complete confidence - and woodface has got to do all of them together if the risk of injury is not going to increase :tears:

Caro

23rd-January-2007, 08:31 AM

... Which makes for a lot of accumulated wisdom. Luckily we have quite a few of them who take the time to post their accumulated wisdom on this forum, and to share the considerable knowledge that they've gained over the many years they've been dancing.

As a relative newcomer to the dance, perhaps you might consider taking some of it on board, hey?

:yeah: I seriously admire DF, Andy and others for the patience they are showing you Woodface. I know that if I was anywhere close to their experience and ability I'd have put you on ignore list and given up on your case a long time ago.

I'm also very grateful that we do have those people who post excellent advice when you need it (but you clearly require no advice WF, so I don't expect you to know that), and who help many of us in the meanders of our way to improved dancing. Thanks for you patience with even the thickest of us, guys :respect:

Baruch

23rd-January-2007, 09:14 AM

Have not changed my tune one bit. Please at least have the decency to read my posts in full if you are going to make negative comments. I have always maintained that stance.
I apologise. I thought you were now saying that you wouldn't do those moves on a busy floor, but from re-reading your post I can see that you haven't changed your mind and are still advocating dangerous practices.

Personally, I wouldn't ever do lifts on a social dance floor, and deep drops I would only do on a floor that wasn't busy.

Yet again, to reiterate: a floor doesn't have to be crowded for these moves to be dangerous. A busy floor (by your definition of 50+ dancers) is quite dangerous enough.

Thanks for the neg rep, by the way. Coming from you, it's almost an honour.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 10:52 AM

I think this is where we all differ. Woodface says he doesn't do these moves on a crowded floor. This qualification leaves him free to do those drops and major aerials :really: on a floor that is not crowded. And the definition of "crowded" is down to woodface. Many of us, including me, say these moves are not to be done on a social dance floor. We now depend on woodface for many things;

No Andy, I have Never at any point said that I would do major aerials on a social floor.

I'll just re-write that as it has been missed several times already I WOULD NEVER DO MAJOR AERIALS ON A SOCIAL FLOOR.

What I am and have been talking about, as I have said many times, is mini aerials that get taught in the intermediate class.

These people who have been dancing along time, yes I respect their opinion, yes they may be fantastic dancers, but they also push things way, way out of context.

Tessalicious

23rd-January-2007, 10:55 AM

TheTramp

23rd-January-2007, 11:03 AM

These people who have been dancing along time, yes I respect their opinion

No you don't. You're convinced that you are right. You don't give a fig for the opinions of anyone that doesn't agree with you!

I do find it amazing. You have a line up of (and make no bones about it) your betters in terms of dancing, arguing against you, and telling you that you might be mistaken in your views. And you're convinced that you're right.

And then you also claim not to be arrogant :na:

You are truly amazing* :worthy:

*And no, I didn't mean that in any good way.

Trouble

23rd-January-2007, 11:04 AM

Pass the popcorn, someone, it missed this corner.

By the way, ESG asked me to pass on that he was considering coming back to the forum but, on reading some of the nonsense on this thread and being reminded of many times of banging his own head against a brick wall, he sympathises with Andy (:what:) and DF but won't be getting involved again any time soon...

people need to remember this is a chat forum and not take things so seriously. Chill out for christ sakes. (this is not directed to anybody in particular).

TheTramp

23rd-January-2007, 11:05 AM

Pass the popcorn, someone, it missed this corner.

By the way, ESG asked me to pass on that he was considering coming back to the forum but, on reading some of the nonsense on this thread and being reminded of many times of banging his own head against a brick wall, he sympathises with Andy (:what:) and DF but won't be getting involved again any time soon...

Here you go Tess. Salted ok for you?

And please, ESG, do come back and post. Out of you and woodface, I know whose rubbish I'd prefer to read! :na:

TheTramp

23rd-January-2007, 11:07 AM

people need to remember this is a chat forum and not take things so seriously. Chill out for christ sakes. (this is not directed to anybody in particular).

No. It's a dance forum. For discussing dance. Which is what we're doing :flower:

It is (of course) undoubtedly a chat forum as well.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 11:08 AM

No you don't. You're convinced that you are right. You don't give a fig for the opinions of anyone that doesn't agree with you!

I do find it amazing. You have a line up of (and make no bones about it) your betters in terms of dancing, arguing against you, and telling you that you might be mistaken in your views. And you're convinced that you're right.

And then you also claim not to be arrogant :na:

You are truly amazing* :worthy:

*And no, I didn't mean that in any good way.

No Trampy, I have all along agreed with them that aerials are dangerous. Mini aerials are done many a time. I know of one person who has been posting against me that has Taught one in an intermediate class!!!!

David Bailey

23rd-January-2007, 11:24 AM

Trouble

23rd-January-2007, 11:31 AM

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 11:38 AM

I've been trying very hard to think of a way of sticking up for woodface, simply to be contrary :na:, but it's been very difficult when he's, well, wrong...

Having said that, I don't think woodface is being completely insane, he's actually agreeing with most of the points made by the experts. The only difference is that he's happy doing mini-aerials in social dance conditions, and his definitions of safety differ from that of more experienced people. Of course, those are quite significant differences...

It also seems that the general consensus on safety of these moves in the Forum has hardened, mainly since DavidB said that he and Lily didn't do aerials socially. So possibly woodface's attitude might not have provoked such a storm of outrage a year or so ago. And I also wonder if this attitude is widely representative of intermediate dancers generally?

If mini-aerials like the lap-sit / first-move-jump are dangerous, are they still taught? I'll admit I haven't seen one being taught for years, is that for safety reasons or have I just missed the classes?

Also, are there any official recommendations or guidelines for Ceroc teachers about aerials and safety?

Cheers DJ :cheers:

They are still taught. All the time. Not just in Ceroc either but in many other Modern Jive classes. If they were considered dangerous, then why teach them. As I stated earlier, one person who has been posting against me has apparently taught them on at least one occasion!!!!

DF has stated that he does aerials on a social floor (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333011&postcount=65), and, so I have been told, do David and Lilly (mini aerials). (why was there no outcry when DF said this?)

I have no difference of opinion on safety than anyone else. If so I am prob more conscious of it. Whilst I might not really care about my virtual reputation with people I will never meet, my real life reputation means a lot to me.

All im doing is not going with the crowd and standing up for myself against people who have a big influence over other forumites.

Maybe this is no longer about aerials, dip, drops etc and more about who has the most influence over the forum.

TheTramp

23rd-January-2007, 11:46 AM

Why if somebody has an opinion that we do not agree with does that make a person wrong. I have never understood that. The person can have opinions whether they be ignorant, bias or whatever but it does not mean that they are wrong.

None of us, experienced or otherwise can categoriacally say something is wrong as in the ceroc world as we know, teachers differ dramatically on moves and how to do this and how to do that.

a discussion forum is exactly that, discussion, there it no right or wrong. I really do not like this mob action that seems to appear sometimes when everybody in this case is what i call "picking on" woodface and not always politely. Its uncalled for and can be done in a more adult way im sure.

Of course someone can have an opinion. When a number of much more experienced people have a differing opinion, then yes, I'd say that an opinion can quite easily be wrong.

And I disagree with point 2 as well. So, for example, you don't think that we can say something is wrong if it's yanking, or perving, or any of the other what are taken to be generally unacceptable behaviours on the dance floor.

Say woodface (and I'm sure that he wouldn't) was of the opinion that it was acceptable to 'cop a feel' while dancing. You're saying that he would be right?

I do somewhat agree with your point about mob action on woodface though. The trouble is, that some people feel strongly about it, including obviously woodface. And the more that he keeps posting, the more those people will react. And unfortunately, they all appear to have a contrary opinion to him. So, while I do somewhat agree, I would also say that he keeps setting himself up for it, and thus have rather less sympathy for him than you.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 11:55 AM

{snip}

Say woodface (and I'm sure that he wouldn't) was of the opinion that it was acceptable to 'cop a feel' while dancing. You're saying that he would be right?

{snip}

Maybe that would have got a better reaction. :rofl:

I do feel quite passionatly about it. Esp when people claim they do these moves but still post against it saying it's wrong!!

Opinions (by def a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty) can make good discussion points. Whats done in practise is a completley different matter.

I have only said I do what 100's of people across the country do at dance venues every weekend, what forumites do (I have seen some doing them), What forumites apparently teach. Why am I the wrong one.

Why is the person thats wrong not the one who says they do aerials on a social floor, Or the one that teaches them? Or the one who's thought is "this must be right because x or y says so"?

David Bailey

23rd-January-2007, 11:55 AM

Why if somebody has an opinion that we do not agree with does that make a person wrong. I have never understood that. The person can have opinions whether they be ignorant, bias or whatever but it does not mean that they are wrong.
Well in this case, there are a couple of reasons:

Some very very very experienced people (basically, the top aerials specialists in MJ) have stated their expert opinion, clearly.
woodface has a tendency to state his opinions as facts, based on less experience.

None of us, experienced or otherwise can categoriacally say something is wrong as in the ceroc world as we know, teachers differ dramatically on moves and how to do this and how to do that.
Only true to a point. Generally, I'd accept the opinion of David's B and F on aerials, as I'd accept Marc's opinion on music, or Trampy's opinion of seals, for example. Some people are genuine experts.

a discussion forum is exactly that, discussion, there it no right or wrong. I really do not like this mob action that seems to appear sometimes when everybody in this case is what i call "picking on" woodface and not always politely. Its uncalled for and can be done in a more adult way im sure.
I actually agree with this, I think woodface has had a disproportionate reaction given his opinions, which may well be fairly common in the MJ world at large.

There's a lot of this "pack mentality" stuff going around, and it could probably be avoided. And yes, I know, I joined in early on :blush: - do as I say not as I do.

Dai

23rd-January-2007, 12:01 PM

OMG - i can't believe this thread was only started yesterday - its taken forever to read it all.

Truly impressed by the levels of patience shown.

23rd-January-2007, 12:05 PM

Eh?!?!?!?:confused:

I, personally, expressed my own opinion. I think Woodface has been wrong in a lot of his views, particularly with regard to safety "cushions" and allowances.

And I have said so. MY opinion.

So have many others. And they have said so. I haven't noticed anyone posting on behalf of the 10. Or, indeed, for anyone else.

Better, more experienced dancers (some of whom are passing on knowledge gained by making their own mistakes, e.g. David F) than me are saying the same thing. Is this a concensus of wisdom, or pack mentality?!?

Is woodface being "picked on" in any other thread?

One can only get shot at when one sticks his head above the parapet. I resect Woodface for doing it, but still don't agree wth stuff he has said.

Your ever humble,

CJ
(one of the pack...)

Trouble

23rd-January-2007, 12:09 PM

Of course someone can have an opinion. When a number of much more experienced people have a differing opinion, then yes, I'd say that an opinion can quite easily be wrong.

And I disagree with point 2 as well. So, for example, you don't think that we can say something is wrong if it's yanking, or perving, or any of the other what are taken to be generally unacceptable behaviours on the dance floor.

Say woodface (and I'm sure that he wouldn't) was of the opinion that it was acceptable to 'cop a feel' while dancing. You're saying that he would be right?

I do somewhat agree with your point about mob action on woodface though. The trouble is, that some people feel strongly about it, including obviously woodface. And the more that he keeps posting, the more those people will react. And unfortunately, they all appear to have a contrary opinion to him. So, while I do somewhat agree, I would also say that he keeps setting himself up for it, and thus have rather less sympathy for him than you.

Well in this case, there are a couple of reasons:

Some very very very experienced people (basically, the top aerials specialists in MJ) have stated their expert opinion, clearly.
woodface has a tendency to state his opinions as facts, based on less experience.

Only true to a point. Generally, I'd accept the opinion of David's B and F on aerials, as I'd accept Marc's opinion on music, or Trampy's opinion of seals, for example. Some people are genuine experts.

I actually agree with this, I think woodface has had a disproportionate reaction given his opinions, which may well be fairly common in the MJ world at large.

There's a lot of this "pack mentality" stuff going around, and it could probably be avoided. And yes, I know, I joined in early on :blush: - do as I say not as I do.

Eh?!?!?!?:confused:

I, personally, expressed my own opinion. I think Woodface has been wrong in a lot of his views, particularly with regard to safety "cushions" and allowances.

And I have said so. MY opinion.

So have many others. And they have said so. I haven't noticed anyone posting on behalf of the 10. Or, indeed, for anyone else.

Better, more experienced dancers (some of whom are passing on knowledge gained by making their own mistakes, e.g. David F) than me are saying the same thing. Is this a concensus of wisdom, or pack mentality?!?

Is woodface being "picked on" in any other thread?

One can only get shot at when one sticks his head above the parapet. I resect Woodface for doing it, but still don't agree wth stuff he has said.

Your ever humble,

CJ
(one of the pack...)

CJ read through the thread again. Then tell me how you can come to the same innocent conclusion, if you do then, so be it. This is not aimed at anybody in particular, this is just aimed in general at the feeling of this thread being a bullish and unwarranted, sometimes personal attack on woodface. Not everybody but some are doing it. Your opinion is your opinion of course it is but i dont like it all the same. My opinion. :yum: :flower:

TheTramp

23rd-January-2007, 12:13 PM

On this thread, woodface has posted 39 times. The next top 3 posters to the thread have posted a total of 40 times between them (well, 41 now!).

Maybe it's less of a mob mentality picking on woodface, maybe it should be seen as the woodface (solo) mob, picking on everyone else? :whistle:

Trouble

23rd-January-2007, 12:15 PM

oh Trampy you are a one. :love:

LilyB

23rd-January-2007, 12:19 PM

... and, so I have been told, do David and Lilly (mini aerials). ...

When & where would that be? And who told you? And what 'mini-aerials' are you referring to? I take it that if you are prepared to quote in such definitive terms, then you should be prepared to name your source.

David Bailey

23rd-January-2007, 12:19 PM

I haven't noticed anyone posting on behalf of the 10.
Well, you wouldn't, would you? I mean, no-one goes around saying "I'm a Ten member", do they? :rolleyes:

BTW, did you know that the original Ten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ten) lasted nearly 500 years? I wonder if the MJ Ten will last until the 2400s...

23rd-January-2007, 12:22 PM

When & where would that be? And who told you? And what 'mini-aerials' are you referring to? I take it that if you are prepared to quote in such definitive terms, then you should be prepared to name your source.

Uh-oh.....:eek:

Gav

23rd-January-2007, 12:24 PM

Fight, Fight, Fight, Fight, Fight, Fight, Fight! :clap:

Sorry, couldn't help myself :blush:

TA Guy

23rd-January-2007, 12:31 PM

It also seems that the general consensus on safety of these moves in the Forum has hardened, mainly since DavidB said that he and Lily didn't do aerials socially. So possibly woodface's attitude might not have provoked such a storm of outrage a year or so ago. And I also wonder if this attitude is widely representative of intermediate dancers generally?

I've never done an aerial in my life, or had the desire. Also never contributed to an aerial thread before or discussed it, so my attitude is unchanging.

All moves have the potential for injury and tho I've never actually seen an aerial cause injury (luckily) you do not have to be a rocket scientist to see the greater potential for injury there. The problem is, no matter how competant the perpetrator or his partner, you cannot legistrate for other couples doing crazy and wierd things on the dance floor that could disturb the balance of the perpetrator.

There is a secondary effect as well. When I'm dancing, if someone launches into an aerial next to us or one couple away or so, I cannot help but shift a large amount of my concentration and effort into keeping an eye on them ready for any evasive action that might be necessary to protect myself and my partner. I'm sure most would do this. This has a negative affect on my floorcraft, which is now being neglected... as well as more mundane things like the quality of our dance.

For those reasons, I consider aerials, even mini ones, on the social dance floor, a genuinely selfish act and something that should be included in the 'what not to do' chapter in the 'idiots guide to bad floorcraft'.

Mary

23rd-January-2007, 12:32 PM

I'm gonna 'fess up now. Years ago (we are talking a long time ago) we used to do mini-aerials (before we could do bigger aerials) on the social dancefloor. At that time it wasn't frowned upon, and the venues were nowhere near as busy as they are now, and we thought we were being pretty cool and they heightened the pleasure of the dance for us. We were always at the edge of the dancefloor and had plenty of space. On one occasion I smacked into another ladies leg!!! It must have been quite painful for her and I was absolutely mortified! I felt so stupid. We thought we were so safe and careful - yeah right!!! We were far less experienced dancers then and thought we were being cool!

I can understand your opinions Woodface given the indications of your current experience of social dancing. I am not commenting on your level or ability in any way - just that hindsight and exerience (in anything) makes us wiser.

It's like being young and stupid - we make mistakes or errors of judgement and we learn from them.

When this topic comes up again in a year or two I'm sure you will be joining everyone else in condemning the next eager beaver who believes 'certain stuff is OK at certain times' etc. etc.:wink:

But lets keep the discussion going - it's fun. :D

M

Gav

23rd-January-2007, 12:39 PM

I do dips, seducers and leans occasionally if they fit the music, if my partner at the time doesn't mind and if the floorspace allows.
I don't do drops or aerials ever because I don't have a regular partner to practice with and I can't see me ever being good enough at them without a regular partner.
I've also been in the situation of having to yank my partner out of the way of a flying lady on a crowded floor and also had to be careful where I trod when I found a ladies head appearing at foot height right in front of me.
Now my floorcraft isnt' perfect, but I don't want to be the person responsible for putting my partners in unnecessary danger, so I don't do it. Simple.
AFAIC, enough space for such moves means that if I take up all the space my partner and I require and the nearest couple could get in that space before the move is complete, then there isn't enough space. It's much like driving really, doesn't matter how good your skills are, you have to allow for people doing random, unexpected things to just ruin your day. :D

Mary

23rd-January-2007, 12:44 PM

MartinHarper

23rd-January-2007, 01:07 PM

The only difference is that he's happy doing mini-aerials in social dance conditions.

Often it's the way things are said. After all, I've said that every now and again I lead one of the two mini-aerials (both "jumps") I've learnt in social dance conditions. Other (more experienced) dancers have said that they view that as too much risk. For example, I wouldn't be allowed to do so at one of AndyMcG's events. That's fine. There's been no great argument as a result. We can agree to disagree. I welcome explanations and advice as to why I might want to change that.

On the other hand, I haven't used words like "busy", haven't talked about full aerials and deep drops, haven't offered my dancing as a model for others to follow, and haven't accused more experienced dancers of being ignorant or hypocritical.

Caro

23rd-January-2007, 01:15 PM

Often it's the way things are said.

:yeah: exactly. Woodface makes himself such an easy target by being so arrogant... hence he's asking for the more strong minded (or bored in my case) amongts us to pick on him everytime...

Show a little of respect for those people more established than you both in the dance world and on the forum, a little modesty, and you'll be just fine eventhough you might completely disagree with them... (which is not even the case...! :rolleyes: )

Trouble

23rd-January-2007, 01:16 PM

On the other hand, I haven't used words like "busy", haven't talked about full aerials and deep drops, haven't offered my dancing as a model for others to follow, and haven't accused more experienced dancers of being ignorant or hypocritical.

thats because your a very very nice man Martin. :rolleyes:

Ghost

23rd-January-2007, 02:09 PM

Ok so to clarify

Full aerials are danced all over the country on social dance floors. No-one here thinks this is a good idea if the floor is at more than half capacity.

Mini-aerials are also danced all over the country on social dance floors.

Mini-aerials are taught all over the country in normal Ceroc classes encourgaing this

The more experienced dancers feel that on balance it is better not to do aerials of any kind on a social dance floor, regardless of how busy it is.

For purposes of comparison (I appreciate the danger aspect is missing) -
Hand-bouncing is also danced all over the country on social dance floors.

Hand-bouncing is taught all over the country in normal Ceroc classes encourgaing this

The more experienced dancers feel that on balance it is better not to do hand-bouncing of any kind on a social dance floor, regardless of how busy it is.

Right?

straycat

23rd-January-2007, 02:26 PM

For purposes of comparison (I appreciate the danger aspect is missing) -
Hand-bouncing is also danced all over the country on social dance floors.

I'm not sure what the comparison is supposed to achieve, given that the danger aspect is what's gotten everyone (including me) so worked up.

I am working on the idea of getting handbounce banned from all jive venues, believe me. But unlike aerials, this one'll have to be introduced very carefully and gradually, so the campaign is really still in its infancy.

MartinHarper

23rd-January-2007, 02:36 PM

Full aerials are danced all over the country on social dance floors.

I've not seen this except in jam circles and, occasionally, by a couple practicing after the evening proper has finished.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 02:47 PM

I think there needs to be a clear definition of aerials, baby aerials and mini aerials. Only then can we really discuss what the correct social conditions for each are.

This is, and has been my opinions all along......

There are of course variations of each which wont fit directly in to these catagorys but the sakes of a guide.

Aerials Anything which requires either dancer to:
Have his/her center of gravity above shoulder height
Him/her to be unbalanced on their vertical axis
Him/Her to be upside down
Him/ her to be rotatingi.e. Shoulder drops, Over turns, tumble back drops.

This should only be formed in a showcase situation.

Baby aerials Anything which requires either dancer to:
Have his / her center of gravity above waist height
Him/her to be unbalanced on their vertical axisi.e. Swan, back pass, waist lean.

These should only be performed on a spacious quiet floor with plenty of room.

Mini aerials Anything which requires either dancer to:

Have his/her feet below waist levelie, lap sit, First move turn out.

Can be performed socially if space to do so is available.

It is all a case of judgement of space and situation. Once again, my judgement will be no different to anyone elses.

straycat

23rd-January-2007, 02:53 PM

thats because your a very very nice man Martin. :rolleyes:

... implying that Woodface isn't? That's so mean!!! :wink:

straycat

23rd-January-2007, 02:55 PM

Mini aerials Anything which requires either dancer to:

Have his/her feet below waist levelie, lap sit, First move turn out.

EG standing still? :confused:

Caro

23rd-January-2007, 02:58 PM

It is all a case of judgement of space and situation. Once again, my judgement will be no different to anyone elses.

I think that thread clearly demonstrated that in many instances, it will :rolleyes: .

Back to the young & foolish issue as Mary explained earlier... *yawns*

23rd-January-2007, 02:59 PM

Back to the issues a young & foolish Mary explained earlier... *yawns*

:whistle:

straycat

23rd-January-2007, 03:02 PM

I think there needs to be a clear definition of aerials, baby aerials and mini aerials. Only then can we really discuss what the correct social conditions for each are.

I thought we'd already nailed some of this down to the point where (for example) you had stated that a move like an FMJ was something you'd happily do when there were other couples dancing five feet away (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333096&postcount=84).

I personally believe that this is not safe. I'm really not sure what is to be achieved by looking at each and every case in turn.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 03:09 PM

This started out as a PM but as it took so long to write, I thought I would share it.....

I too have had a go at people doing aerials on the floor (and other stupid moves ie icebreakers) before and will continue to do so. I done a cabaret a few months ago for a class down this way and then had to go round after having ago at all the people that tried doing shoulder drops (made worse by the fact there were all over 60 :eek:!!!!)

Have also seen a lass get face planted by someone copying a swan from me (and a well rehearsed partner) again this was done in a (kind of) show case situation where we had been given 1/4 of the floor. Unbelivebly I caught the same person trying it on another girl less than a week later. I wasn't impressed and got the class teacher to have a word. The girl he tried doing it to didn't even know what he was doing to her!!!. That people, is dangerous!!!!

I feel that moves no matter how dangerous, should not be entierly banned from dancing, but I do FIRMLY believe that there is a time and place for every move. Nor do I believe that dance moves can be too 'show offy' it's all in the interpretation of the music. I dance for mine and my partners pleasure, not for the pleasure of the sidelines (though its always nice to get a clap :grin:).

I, without being disrespectful, can not really say, heartfelt, that I respect DF or David & lilly as I have not seen them dance etc. If I was to say, Yes they are brilliant dancers etc etc etc, I would be false and lying. I can't comment on what i have not seen. However, these dancers are ob very good to be getting respect from the other forumites. I hope to meet them one day and gain respect for them and from them. I know I am going to get ripped to pieces, but I would rather that than lie.

also on that matter, I am not the type of person to hang on to every word Z or Y say because they have been dancing x years. I know dancers that have been dancing 10 years and still can't get a beat.

The nature of MJ is that it has variety. I tend to go against the flow (non-deliberatly). Whilst i like blues, I want a disco room, I do 4 spins instead of 1, I dont want an iPhone etc etc. All of these things have received lots of attention from a handfull of forumites because it's not what they like. Doesn't mean that Im a bad dancer because I like disco or can spin or want an iphone.

Hopefully everyone will get to see that for themselves one day. I openly invite any forumite, man or woman, to grab me for a dance. I might be different, but im sure as hell not boring. :wink:

Lastly, to add a bit on....... I find mini aerials boring.

Gav

23rd-January-2007, 03:17 PM

{lots of stuff, i errr may have read some of it}

No, you see you're wrong again. If you don't want an iphone, you're clearly an awful dancer and should give up immediately. :devil:

Whitebeard

23rd-January-2007, 03:21 PM

NZ Monkey

23rd-January-2007, 03:21 PM

No, you see you're wrong again. If you don't want an iphone, you're clearly an awful dancer and should give up immediately. :devil:Does that mean that by wanting an iPhone I'll become a good dancer?

All I want for christmas is my.... :whistle:

Gav

23rd-January-2007, 03:22 PM

Does that mean that by wanting an iPhone I'll become a good dancer?

All I want for christmas is my.... :whistle:

Is there any other way? :rolleyes:

Trouble

23rd-January-2007, 03:24 PM

Is there any other way? :rolleyes:

excuse ignorance but what is an iphone. ?? :confused:

David Bailey

23rd-January-2007, 03:25 PM

Whilst it's all good clean fun having a go at woodface, I've still got a couple of questions:

1. Do teachers ever say "Don't do aerials at a social dance"?
I strongly suspect they don't say that - they say "Be very careful, make sure you have space, etc. etc.". In other words, do they say pretty similar things to what woodface is saying? If so, shouldn't our ire be directed at the teachers rather than the students?

2. Are drops also seen as "non-social-dance" activities"?
If so, and I can see a similar "safety" case for this, should we similarly diss any droppers?

I'd really like to know, because this is an area where the received wisdom of the Forum seems to be slightly different to the teaching and practice out there.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 03:33 PM

It has been asserted that aerials, mini-aerials at least, and drops are commonly taught at intermediate level in Ceroc venues. This is not so in this area at least. Seducers, yes, pretty well every week, but I cannot recall a single drop or aerial. I would have imagined that this would be Ceroc management policy.

There has, however, been the occasional workshop and it is certainly true that a small number of dancers regularly perform full drops, and at least one who does what might be called midi-aerials, on quite busy social dance floors. Twice I have seen a couple come to grief though, fortunately, without serious injury to themselves or anyone else.

I have seen it across the board. They are almost cert in the approved list of intermediate moves. Someone with more knowledge might want to correct or confirm that.

I think it depends on the teacher too. Each teacher, regardles of association has different styles and teachings.

And yes, not wanting an iPhone does make you a bad dancer apparently so does owning anything that rivals apple.

(an iPhone trouble is a reinvention of the wheel. An over priced mobile phone of which, might be fairly impressive at first, will be market leader for a week before someone makes a much better one)

(an whilst im not complaining, this thread has earnt me 7 neg reps. Is this a record?)

Dai

23rd-January-2007, 03:35 PM

i might be really dopey here, but can someone clarify the difference between, dips, drops and seducers.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 03:39 PM

i might be really dopey here, but can someone clarify the difference between, dips, drops and seducers.

I think people defs will differ but I would say,

Dip is a slight lean where the lady will take all her own weight, Ladies head stays above waist level.

Drop, Man takes all of the ladies weight. Ladies end up close to the floor.

Seducer. Man and woman stay on their vertical axis but with a slight bend at the knees or twist.

Trouble

23rd-January-2007, 03:41 PM

i might be really dopey here, but can someone clarify the difference between, dips, drops and seducers.

This should be fun but this is how i understand it.;;;

Dip - this is a move that consists of a leader putting the follower into a position that requires the follower to take most of the weight and put themself into a position that looks more dramatic that it actually is.

Drop - this is a move that puts the follower into a very low position on the floor where the leader gets into a position to share the weight and puts that person almost to the floor in some way

Seducer - this is normally a lean move that involves more dramatic arm movements as in up in the air and a lean in a certain position that looks like more is being done that actually is.

Thats how i understand it anyway....somebody please correct me if im wrong. :innocent:

Dai

23rd-January-2007, 03:44 PM

This should be fun but this is how i understand it.;;;

Dip - this is a move that consists of a leader putting the follower into a position that requires the follower to take most of the weight and put themself into a position that looks more dramatic that it actually is.

Drop - this is a move that puts the follower into a very low position on the floor where the leader gets into a position to share the weight and puts that person almost to the floor in some way

Seducer - this is normally a lean move that involves more dramatic arm movements as in up in the air and a lean in a certain position that looks like more is being done that actually is.

Thats how i understand it anyway....somebody please correct me if im wrong. :innocent:

So does that make a seducer just a flamboyant dip??

Gav

23rd-January-2007, 03:47 PM

I have seen it across the board. They are almost cert in the approved list of intermediate moves. Someone with more knowledge might want to correct or confirm that.

See, you're doing it again! Be more careful with your terminology. What does "across the board" mean? and how have you seen it all?
Whitebeard has said that it doesn't happen in his region and I've never seen drops or aerials of any flavour taught in intermediate classes in Norfolk and Suffolk.

(an whilst im not complaining, this thread has earnt me 7 neg reps. Is this a record?)

Is that all?Pfft, you'll have to try harder than that! :rolleyes:

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 03:48 PM

So does that make a seducer just a flamboyant dip??

Yep, think more tango'y and you should get the picture. With a dip, women tend to go more vertical than a seducer.

gav - Have seen it all over different MJ classes that I have been to, not just Ceroc. Ob I have not been to every class in every town in every county but have been to quite a few (120 ish at last count)

Trouble

23rd-January-2007, 03:50 PM

FYI i have noted that hardly no leaders do the seducers. Why is this. I love them and think they look fantastic if done correctly. :D

Actually thinking about it, perhaps its cause they dont want to seduce me !! :(

Gav

23rd-January-2007, 03:52 PM

FYI i have noted that hardly no leaders do the seducers. Why is this. I love them and think they look fantastic if done correctly. :D

I do! :na: :clap:

I'm just too scared to seduce you. :whistle: :blush:

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 03:57 PM

I know this will get me some stick but will be interesting....

I took a quick look through the cerocphotos.com website.

There are people on there doing these moves on social floors :what: (any of them forumites how have ripped? :whistle:)

.

Mary

23rd-January-2007, 04:01 PM

Let's imagine a situation where a couple are dancing on a not very busy dancefloor - loads of space around. The leader assesses his surroundings and is having a great dance with a regular partner and feels the urge to pop in a little aerial (or whatever). He has calculated that the risks are minimal and executes a lovely move very safely, hasn't inconvenienced any other couple or passerby. This could be deemed as one of those definitions of the busyness of the dancefloor making it perfectly OK to do the move.

If we then go back and re-lived those same few moments where all the circumstances are exactly the same, but for one split second something is different, the outcome could end up entirely different with a varying degree of hazard, injury, inconvenience etc. Suddenly this then becomes the definiton of a too busy dancefloor, and yet all the circumstances up to that point were same.

NO ONE can determine what would be safe. All we can do is accept the degree of risk.

M

Rachel

23rd-January-2007, 04:02 PM

It has been asserted that aerials, mini-aerials at least, and drops are commonly taught at intermediate level in Ceroc venues. This is not so in this area at least.

I have seen it across the board. They are almost cert in the approved list of intermediate moves.They're certainly not in the Ceroc list of intermediate moves.

I'd really like to know, because this is an area where the received wisdom of the Forum seems to be slightly different to the teaching and practice out there.Have we actually established if/who teaches drops & mini aerials and where? Because I don't know of any classes where this occurs. (Though badly taught dips & seducers are a different matter.) Is it just in workshops, perhaps?

Btw - my most dreaded thing to hear on being asked to dance: 'I've just done a drops & seducers workshop ....'
R.

Ghost

23rd-January-2007, 04:04 PM

I'm not sure what the comparison is supposed to achieve, given that the danger aspect is what's gotten everyone (including me) so worked up.

Basically that just because it's both taught and encouraged by Ceroc and indeed done by dancers when they're less experienced (Mary 'fessed up to doing aerials once upon a time), it's still the considered opinion of those with more experience that it's a bad idea. In essence what DJ asks a few posts down.

ie If Ceroc teaches and encourages something, and yet experienced dancers on the Forum say it's a bad idea, who should you listen to?

Drops and mini-aerials have been taught in intermediate classs in my neck of the woods, with as DJ says just the "make sure there's room" warning. Can't speak for the whole country.

MartinHarper

23rd-January-2007, 04:08 PM

I took a quick look through the cerocphotos.com website.

Three drops:
http://www.cerocphotos.com/main.php/v/hammersmith20070113/20070113_0098.jpg.html
http://www.cerocphotos.com/main.php/v/hammersmith20070113/20070113_0027.jpg.html
http://www.cerocphotos.com/main.php/v/blackandwhite2006/20061228_0439.jpg.html

One mini-aerial:
http://www.cerocphotos.com/main.php/v/sinderella2006/20061229_0426.jpg.html

David Bailey

23rd-January-2007, 04:10 PM

Yep, think more tango'y and you should get the picture.
??? :what:
I think all dips / drops / seducers are very very very rare in AT social dancing - I've not seen any, at least.

Rachel

23rd-January-2007, 04:13 PM

Drops and mini-aerials have been taught in intermediate classs in my neck of the woods...Scary! I don't even like the teaching of leans in a standard class because you just can't guarantee the safety of 100+ people from up on the stage. Whatever you say, and no matter how much you get the ladies to practise the lean/dip on their own first to ensure they're taking their own weight, you can guarantee that at least a few woman will end up throwing their neck back and their leg in the air. :eek:

Still, you've been lucky, Ghost. At least you had the wisdom of the forum to counter all those nasty classes. Thankfully, it seems as if you've turned out alright. ;) :hug:

Rachel

Ghost

23rd-January-2007, 04:18 PM

Still, you've been lucky, Ghost. At least you had the wisdom of the forum to counter all those nasty classes. Thankfully, it seems as if you've turned out alright. ;) :hug:

Rachel
:wink: :flower:

Although seeing the dance floor at Park Langley look like something from a Kung-fu movie after the int class where the mini aerial was taught where the lady is lifted into a scissor kick may have had something to do with it :sick:

David Bailey

23rd-January-2007, 04:19 PM

They're certainly not in the Ceroc list of intermediate moves.
I bow to your wisdom, I don't have access to the Big Black Bumper Book of Ceroc moves :worthy:

Have we actually established if/who teaches drops & mini aerials and where? Because I don't know of any classes where this occurs. (Though badly taught dips & seducers are a different matter.) Is it just in workshops, perhaps?
I believe Ceroc now only teaches aerials / drops in specialist workshops, I think most other MJ venues have followed this - for example there's a "Dips 'n' Drops" Workshop with John Sweeney in a few weeks in Oxford. Haven't seen "Aerials" workshops, but I presume they're around somewhere...

But I don't know that the advice given on these workshops is to avoid these moves in social dancing - has anyone been on one of these?

Btw - my most dreaded thing to hear on being asked to dance: 'I've just done a drops & seducers workshop ....'R.
:sad: And there I was thinking it was "Oh, Gotan! Let's Tango!" :whistle:

NZ Monkey

23rd-January-2007, 04:21 PM

Still, you've been lucky, Ghost. At least you had the wisdom of the forum to counter all those nasty classes. Thankfully, it seems as if you've turned out alright. ;) :hug:

RachelYep, drops are pure evil. The eighth deadly sin in fact. They even beat out Reality TV. There’s a special place in hell reserved for anyone who even thinks about using one on a social floor. It’s next to the level reserved for parking wardens.

Mary

23rd-January-2007, 04:31 PM

Haven't seen "Aerials" workshops, but I presume they're around somewhere...

But I don't know that the advice given on these workshops is to avoid these moves in social dancing - has anyone been on one of these?

There's one in Aylesbury beg. of March. :whistle:

:D :D

And if it follows the same format as their previous workshops the advice is given when they should not be done on the social dance floor, they are for showcase/cabaret or jams.

M

Ghost

23rd-January-2007, 04:32 PM

Yep, drops are pure evil. The eighth deadly sin in fact. They even beat out Reality TV. There’s a special place in hell reserved for anyone who even thinks about using one on a social floor. It’s next to the level reserved for parking wardens.

Well yeah. Everyone here thinks as Heaven as "Up" (towards the sky) and Hell as "Down" (towards NZ and OZ where they do the damn things)

:wink: *ducks*

ducasi

23rd-January-2007, 04:41 PM

Mini-aerials are taught all over the country in normal Ceroc classes encourgaing this

Hand-bouncing is taught all over the country in normal Ceroc classes encourgaing this
Not seen either taught in any regular Ceroc class in Scotland.

David Bailey

23rd-January-2007, 05:15 PM

Hmmm... Googling, the only airsteps workshop I could find in the UK was one ran in July 2006:
http://lists.uk-jive.co.uk/cgi-bin/post/mail.cgi/archive/ukjive/20060707141303/

Taught by a couple called David and Lily Barker, apparently. :whistle:

Has anyone done any more recently?

TheTramp

23rd-January-2007, 05:32 PM

See. You actually make it into university for your criminal justice seminar, and you miss 40 posts in the 2.5 hours that you're gone....

If you don't want an iphone, you're clearly an awful dancer and should give up immediately. :devil:

I'll get my coat now. Taxi for Steve.

It has been asserted that aerials, mini-aerials at least, and drops are commonly taught at intermediate level in Ceroc venues.

In classes, I've seen the first move jump taught once in Scotland - probably about 2 years ago. I think I've seen that taught once when I was in London. And I also saw the hip hop taught once in London too. That was over a period of about 4 years, 3.5 years ago. They certainly aren't at all commonly taught generally I don't think.

1. Do teachers ever say "Don't do aerials at a social dance"?

I have taught aerials workshops before, and always start with a over-the-top safety warning. One of which is about not doing aerials at a social dance.

I strongly suspect they don't say that - they say "Be very careful, make sure you have space, etc. etc.".

Nope :na:

Btw - my most dreaded thing to hear on being asked to dance: 'I've just done a drops & seducers workshop ....'
R.

Not, "I've just been taught how to do the donut safely", then? :rolleyes:

But I don't know that the advice given on these workshops is to avoid these moves in social dancing - has anyone been on one of these?

Yes. See above.

Not seen either taught in any regular Ceroc class in Scotland.

Well, if you ask Franck nicely, he may throw (pun intended) one in at Jumpin Jaks next Tuesday. I believe that there's plenty of room! :devil:

David Bailey

23rd-January-2007, 05:40 PM

I have taught aerials workshops before, and always start with a over-the-top safety warning. One of which is about not doing aerials at a social dance.
Huh, well, if you think I'm going to let a performing seal derail my carefully-constructed ranting, think again, mister.

Well, if you ask Franck nicely, he may throw (pun intended) one in at Jumpin Jaks next Tuesday. I believe that there's plenty of room! :devil:
Jumpin' Jaks, ho ho. :rolleyes:

TheTramp

23rd-January-2007, 05:42 PM

Jumpin' Jaks, ho ho. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah. Missed that too! :blush:

Andy McGregor

23rd-January-2007, 06:02 PM

oh Trampy you are a one. :love:

CJ read through the thread again. Then tell me how you can come to the same innocent conclusion, if you do then, so be it. This is not aimed at anybody in particular, this is just aimed in general at the feeling of this thread being a bullish and unwarranted, sometimes personal attack on woodface. Not everybody but some are doing it. Your opinion is your opinion of course it is but i dont like it all the same. My opinion. :yum: :flower:

Why if somebody has an opinion that we do not agree with does that make a person wrong. I have never understood that. The person can have opinions whether they be ignorant, bias or whatever but it does not mean that they are wrong.

None of us, experienced or otherwise can categoriacally say something is wrong as in the ceroc world as we know, teachers differ dramatically on moves and how to do this and how to do that.

a discussion forum is exactly that, discussion, there it no right or wrong. I really do not like this mob action that seems to appear sometimes when everybody in this case is what i call "picking on" woodface and not always politely. Its uncalled for and can be done in a more adult way im sure.

people need to remember this is a chat forum and not take things so seriously. Chill out for christ sakes. (this is not directed to anybody in particular).
I was beginning to think Trouble and Topic would never meet - the above consecutive postings were of "calm down, calm down :liverpool accent: and had nothing to do with the topic of the thread. And then she starts getting it right. Have some rep :flower:

This should be fun but this is how i understand it.;;;

Dip - this is a move that consists of a leader putting the follower into a position that requires the follower to take most of the weight and put themself into a position that looks more dramatic that it actually is.

Drop - this is a move that puts the follower into a very low position on the floor where the leader gets into a position to share the weight and puts that person almost to the floor in some way

Seducer - this is normally a lean move that involves more dramatic arm movements as in up in the air and a lean in a certain position that looks like more is being done that actually is.

Thats how i understand it anyway....somebody please correct me if im wrong. :innocent:

clevedonboy

23rd-January-2007, 06:08 PM

There are loads of mini Lindy style aerials that can be done.

Actually, most Lindy venues don't allow aerials on the social floor.

Seeing a number of bits about LH I thought i'd just chip in

Many of the things in Lindy that are picked up on in MJ like the first move jump are more controlled as Lindy moves but the space requirement still exists. So taking the FM Jump as an example, that's like a Savoy style lindy shape called the sendout. In this move though the follow doesn't take a jump of indeterminate size, she is guided (almost lifted I suppose) in front of her partner but this can't just be done willy nilly 'cos as soon as she's there she has to start moving backwards, which leads me to the fact that this move often requires more than 5 feet of space (especially the 8 count variation). It's a common move but people tend to rein it in when the floor is busy.

But I disagree with DF on this point - Lindy venues I've attended don't really have a policy beyond people tutting loudly. That said though there's no fashion for aerials etc in the same way as there is in MJ - Lindy Hoppers have so many fancy things that they've probably forgotten how to do that Aerials are just not on most peoples radar.

Great thread though - I hope it helps some people think about their responsibilty to their partner and their fellow dancers - cardinal rule of dance as far as I'm concerned

Trouble

23rd-January-2007, 06:09 PM

I was beginning to think Trouble and Topic would never meet - the above consecutive postings were of "calm down, calm down :liverpool accent: and had nothing to do with the topic of the thread. And then she starts getting it right. Have some rep :flower:

Thats a sort of giveth and taketh away type of response isn't it Andy. Are you like that in bed. :whistle:

Alice

23rd-January-2007, 06:25 PM

Well yeah. Everyone here thinks as Heaven as "Up" (towards the sky) and Hell as "Down" (towards NZ and OZ where they do the damn things)

:wink: *ducks*
Lots more fun in Hell though:whistle: :wink:

ha ha you were too slow:na:

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 06:27 PM

:blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush:: blush::blush:

Just noticed something. Tiredness last night on my part. :blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush:

I said 5 foot. Meant 5 steps. Bigger space. :blush::blush:

Andy McGregor

23rd-January-2007, 06:30 PM

Thats a sort of giveth and taketh away type of response isn't it Andy. Are you like that in bed. :whistle:I sleep in bed :whistle:

killingtime

23rd-January-2007, 07:17 PM

Not seen either taught in any regular Ceroc class in Scotland.

Ooh I have. Apparently on my 9th lesson I did a Lambada drop (ah back in the day when I recorded the moves I did). I've done a ballroom drop a few times in classes and something I described as Catapult into Cross Steps and Scary Ass Drop, I had pretty much dropped (no pun intended) that move from my knowledge until I did it in a cabaret.

I didn't mind learning a new drop in a class. I'd always ask the person I got partnered with if she wanted to do it or not. I expect it is much more scary for the woman who has no idea who she might get. It also made me (and still does) worry about post-class freestyle where people suddenly get the urge to practice a move that has no place on such a busy floor :mad:.

I haven't known them to be taught recently though (but maybe that's because I'm more of a hotshot and miss a few classes now-a-days).

ducasi

23rd-January-2007, 07:57 PM

Ooh I have.
I was referring to mini-aerials and bouncing hands – I've been taught drops a few times around Scotland. ;)

Paulthetrainer

23rd-January-2007, 08:14 PM

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 08:25 PM

I think in your first reference to this point, you did say 5 steps.

You know what, I think I did. How did that get changed around? The mysteries of the forum :confused:

ducasi

23rd-January-2007, 08:53 PM

You know what, I think I did. How did that get changed around? The mysteries of the forum :confused:
You did. Someone replied to that, quoting your "5 steps" and started talking about "5 feet". Hopefully an innocent misunderstanding.

I would say that 5 steps away is sufficient distance to do most simple drops and baby aerials with a relative degree of safety.

Not so sure about the fancier drops and "mini-aerials" though...

Disclaimer: I don't do many (any?) fancy drops and no aerials at all...

straycat

23rd-January-2007, 08:54 PM

You know what, I think I did. How did that get changed around? The mysteries of the forum :confused:

That would be me - I was translating the average dance step into feet for reference. Didn't realise what big feet you had, so my apologies ;)

I still feel it's far too close.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 08:57 PM

That would be me - I was translating the average dance step into feet for reference. Didn't realise what big feet you had, so my apologies ;)

I still feel it's far too close.

Ahh, the difference between feet and steps is a big one. Hence alot of the stick that I have been getting. :yum:

frodo

23rd-January-2007, 10:22 PM

Mini aerials Anything which requires either dancer to:

Have his/her feet below waist levelie, lap sit, First move turn out.
While I can appreciate how the first move jump could go wrong.

With a lap sit isn't the lady a) close in moving towards you on the sit b) the sit and unsit can be separated by a pause, unlike a jump. Should they really be lumped together ?

Qualification - Don't think I've ever been taught a move specifically "lap sit", but I assume it is like a Jango (I think) move I quite liked which essentially involved both the ladies feet just off the floor perhaps crossed and her weight on the man's thigh.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 10:30 PM

While I can appreciate how the first move jump could go wrong.

With a lap sit isn't the lady a) close in moving towards you on the sit b) the sit and unsit can be separated by a pause, unlike a jump. Should they really be lumped together ?

Qualification - Don't think I've ever been taught a move specifically "lap sit", but I assume it is like a Jango (I think) move I quite liked which essentially involved both the ladies feet just off the floor perhaps crossed and her weight on the man's thigh.

Yep it's bit like a marmalade just with / or with a pause. Both are variations.

straycat

23rd-January-2007, 10:42 PM

Ahh, the difference between feet and steps is a big one. Hence alot of the stick that I have been getting. :yum:

Sorry if you get teased a lot - it must be hard having a stride like yours :hug:
On the bright side, there's always the Ministry of Silly Walks ;)

I measured mine - if I'm walkiing slowly, my stride's about a foot, if i'm walking fast it can go to 18 inches, taking it up to 7 1/2 feet for five steps. Still far too close for my liking.

Lee Bartholomew

23rd-January-2007, 10:45 PM

I measured mine - if I'm walkiing slowly, about a foot, if i'm walking fast it can go to 18 inches, taking it up to 7 1/2 feet for five steps.

:sick::sick::sick::sick::sick::sick::sick::sick::s ick::sick::sick::sick::devil::devil::devil::devil:

Some people have to boast. Wouldn't like to be your dance partner.

I would say that that is prob a safe'ish distance. But then it's not just the distance factor as well. There are other factors such as the flooring, tiredness, your partner, music speed etc as well.

Gus

24th-January-2007, 12:20 AM

Any chance of choosing a well known venue (as a lot of Forumites travel, especially to the weekenders) and using that to define terms. Or even say a hypothetical 5m by 20m room - how many people = busy, crowded etc?Hmmm .. following on from this line of thought ...

I HATE to bring NAMES into the argument (:rolleyes: ) but am I correct in recollecting the ONE time that Andy and Rena had a major accident ... it was on a huge dancefloor with only one other couple sharing it with them?

(Don't worry W/Face ... I'm sure somebody will let you know who Andy & Rena are :wink: )

ducasi

24th-January-2007, 12:37 AM

I measured mine - if I'm walkiing slowly, my stride's about a foot, if i'm walking fast it can go to 18 inches, taking it up to 7 1/2 feet for five steps. Still far too close for my liking.
I've just taken 5 easy steps across my kitchen floor, and measured how far I had travelled.

It was about 3 metres – 10 feet in old money.

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 12:39 AM

Sheepman

24th-January-2007, 01:15 AM

You ob don't know all that many aerials or drops. :rofl: So David's avatar wasn't a clue?

:angry: Meant to give you neg rep for this, but I forgot to change the rep from positive! :angry: Grrr, I hate the fact that the rep dialogue already has positive selected.

Greg

TheTramp

24th-January-2007, 01:21 AM

I didn't mind learning a new drop in a class. I'd always ask the person I got partnered with if she wanted to do it or not.

I believe that when teaching a drop (or an aerial), the (ceroc) teacher is always supposed to give an alternative, for people who don't want to do the drop. Teach that first, then move onto the drop for people who want to do that. And then all the guys are supposed to check with the person they are dancing with in the class as to which option they'd prefer....

:angry: Meant to give you neg rep for this, but I forgot to change the rep from positive! :angry: Grrr, I hate the fact that the rep dialogue already has positive selected.

I can't imagine anyone else who's done that to woodface! :rolleyes:

Trouble

24th-January-2007, 01:29 AM

I believe that when teaching a drop (or an aerial), the (ceroc) teacher is always supposed to give an alternative, for people who don't want to do the drop. Teach that first, then move onto the drop for people who want to do that. And then all the guys are supposed to check with the person they are dancing with in the class as to which option they'd prefer..
:

i have seen that done in some classes but not all of them. They normally give you a drop option or an alternative dip. I have never seen aerials taught in a normal Ceroc night of lessons only in workshops and on weekenders when they tend to be mini aerials.

A question i have perhaps somebody could enlighten me....

Somebody said to me recently that aerials were being banned from competitions is this true.? If it is true do we know why?

Paulthetrainer

24th-January-2007, 01:39 AM

I've just taken 5 easy steps across my kitchen floor, and measured how far I had travelled.

It was about 3 metres – 10 feet in old money.

1. In football, referee's take (fairly) big steps to measure out free kicks, with one step supposedly equalling one yard. Perhaps some kind of defensive wall is necessary for certain moves? :grin:

2. I wish my kitchen was as big as yours :worthy:

Mezzosoprano

24th-January-2007, 01:43 AM

HIya

I tried the "steps across the kitchen thing" - smacked my head on a cupboard door and spilt the dog's water dish..... hope my dancing's better than my pacing.....

Andy McGregor

24th-January-2007, 02:09 AM

Somebody said to me recently that aerials were being banned from competitions is this true.? If it is true do we know why?The airsteps category is going to look very silly. It does remind me of a lesson I attended at Ceroc Horsham about a year ago. Steve Nash taught the Ballroom drop without the drop. He alluded to the fact that some people might like to do a drop at a certain point, but that he wasn't telling them where or when - maybe it should have been re-named the ballroom drip.

Andy McGregor

24th-January-2007, 02:11 AM

I made 5 steps about 10 ft too.

The only time I have had a prang doing an aerial was when there was no one on the floor. Dancing that is. someone decided to walk in to the back of us whilst they were talking to someone :angry:. Luckily we had'nt got to the lift. This was a full blown aerial though not a mini aerialAnother example of how you can walk into people doing aerials between a look to check the area is clear and the completion of the move. I would say the evidence is stacking up against mr woodface.

Amir

24th-January-2007, 02:42 AM

If I try to read anything past page nine on this thread my computer disconnects me from the internet. No joke! I don't know if its a bug on the forum, a bug in my server, or computer generated quality control.

Anyway, I haven't read most of the first nine pages, but got the jist. Or is it gist? Either way, it seems to me Woodface’s view doesn’t quite justify the heated negativity it is receiving. Its like a forum version of what’s-her-name of big brother and what’s-her-name bullying what’s-her-name, but without the racism or press coverage.

I think it comes down to the fact that what Woodface calls ‘busy’ perhaps most of you would actually call ‘not that busy’. When someone in Manchester says that the train was really busy, they probably mean there was nowhere to sit. When someone in London says the tube was really busy, it probably means there was no-where to stand. At least without being pressed up against people on all four sides.

I’m not endorsing social aerials, but here are some interesting points related to the discussion:

In New Zealand doing drops is the norm, although large aerials are banned at freestyles. (at least when I was there.) I would probably do 3 or 4 drops of all kinds, on new partners, every track. I remember there was one teacher who never did any drops and he was famous for it. That is how unusual it was not to do drops. You could be famous for it!

It appears (from videos) that drops and mini-aeriels are fairly common in Australian ceroc too.

Old video’s of Rock n Roll and Lindy hop socials make it look like they were attempting pretty crazy aerials all the time.

Watching professional and amateur Latin ballroom couples train (out where Nicole Cutler dances), I was surprised to see how often they collide. And those guys move fast!

Drops and aerials are taught in modern jive classes by lots of teachers, so its not surprising that if someone thinks he can pull one of safely, then he will.

Whether we do drops and aerials depends on their perceived value to the dance scene, and the amount of risk that scene is willing to accept.

I was never injured or caused injury in NZ doing drops etc, and am now too lazy to bother with them, but I can boast that:

I have broken my partner’s nose doing a man’s spin.
I bruised another girl’s eye doing a free spin
I have kicked and been kicked in the shins attempting ganchos
I have repetitive strain injury in my forearm from ceroc and wcs girls who pull too hard
I got sore knees trying to increase turn out for ballet
I got shin splits trying to deepen my plie
I’ve had twisted ankles from landing badly in jumps
I once stretched so hard I could hardly walk for a few days
I regularly bruise my ego attempting things I can’t do yet

I also don't bother with crowded venues any more either, so my views on social drops are probably the least worth while.

No-one up to page 9 seems to have witnessed Woodface doing aerials dangerously in person. We are taking his word for it that he does them in the first place, so why not take his word for it that he’s doing them safely?

There may be an argument for banning aerials, or not teaching drops. But that is something to take up with venue organizers, not Woodface, or Pinocchio.

Someone once complained to Ange, head of Ceroc NZ, about a couple that often liked to have a good old snog on the dance floor. Actually, that isn’t related at all, but it is interesting, isn’t it?

Well since this won’t appear on the nine pages I have access to, I won’t be able to read any responses, so don’t get too witty or it’ll be wasted.

Ange’s reply to the complaint, by the way, was that she would like to see more passion on the dance floor, not less.

Andy McGregor

24th-January-2007, 03:11 AM

snipI'll have a pint of whatever he's drinking:innocent:

TheTramp

24th-January-2007, 03:36 AM

MartinHarper

24th-January-2007, 10:33 AM

I've seen plenty of aerials in old Lindy performance videos, but I can't recall any in videos or photos of social dancing (except jam circles, again).

Somebody said to me recently that aerials were being banned from competitions - is this true? If it is true do we know why?

Some competitions don't allow aerials, or place restrictions on the number of aerials, or only allow aerials in some categories. This can be for many reasons. Maybe they make competition dancing unlike social dancing, and so less accessible to the audience. Maybe they make competition dancing too hard to get into for prospective competitors.
One thing I don't like about competitions that say (eg) "no more than two aerials" is that competitors try to make those two aerials the biggest and longest aerials possible.

TheTramp

24th-January-2007, 10:38 AM

One thing I don't like about competitions that say (eg) "no more than two aerials" is that competitors try to make those two aerials the biggest and longest aerials possible.

If you do it right, 2 aerials can last an entire track! :rolleyes:

Simon r

24th-January-2007, 10:49 AM

If you do it right, 2 aerials can last an entire track! :rolleyes:

Hence the 8 second rule now in most of the comps (Thank you Dave and Lily)

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 10:55 AM

If you read back through this thread, It is actually quite interesting to see how many people say that they do mini aerials, social drops and a few others on a social floor.

I know im def not alone in doing mini aerials. Some people have said that they do aerials!! (Im hoping they mean mini).

Something Amir brought up, Yes I can do mini aerials and dips but, as I stated elsewhere, I very rarely do them because A) alot of venues that I am attending at the moment are too busy and B) because I will only do them with dance partners I trust.

MartinHarper

24th-January-2007, 11:04 AM

Hence the 8 second rule now in most of the comps (Thank you Dave and Lily)

I'd prefer something like "no more than 10 seconds of aerials", to allow competitors to use that time to do one huge aerial, or five quick aerials, at their preference. I like seeing those "blink and you miss it" aerials.

Simon r

24th-January-2007, 11:21 AM

I'd prefer something like "no more than 10 seconds of aerials", to allow competitors to use that time to do one huge aerial, or five quick aerials, at their preference. I like seeing those "blink and you miss it" aerials.

Most of the blink and you miss it airials are down to the fact that neither have the ability to hold the shape for a length of time.

I prefer the slower more controlled lifts that then can be incorperated in to the music.

I think it is a case of personel preference...

I'm sure we have had this conversation somewhere else but as David and Lilly are the only couple who could complete a whole track in the air i do not really see the need for a limit at all, again (actually maybe Steve and Jo could)

I think it is a case of personel preference...

NZ Monkey

24th-January-2007, 12:12 PM

{snip}

In New Zealand doing drops is the norm, although large aerials are banned at freestyles. (at least when I was there.) I would probably do 3 or 4 drops of all kinds, on new partners, every track. I remember there was one teacher who never did any drops and he was famous for it. That is how unusual it was not to do drops. You could be famous for it!

{snip}

I was never injured or caused injury in NZ doing drops etc, and am now too lazy to bother with them, but I can boast that:

Stuff that made me think ‘’ouch’’

I was thinking the exactly the same thing, but have avoided posting on this thread because it seems to be a lightning rod for negative attention (at least if you're swimming against the current).

I’ll back up Amir by going on record to say that drops are very common on social dance floors in NZ and although accidents do occasionally happen, they’re hardly the endemic problem I think many would have us believe. More serious accidents are caused by stay elbows than anything else, and drops are way down the list there.

My impression when I joined this forum was that there must be kamikazes in every venue in the UK whose mission it was to hunt down anyone who puts their partner into a drop or dip. That’s something which doesn’t match my experiences there (or even here for that matter) at all. Perhaps if we paid more attention to floorcraft then many of the issues with these dangerous moves will disappear? :whistle:

David Bailey

24th-January-2007, 12:16 PM

I’ll back up Amir by going on record to say that drops are very common on social dance floors in NZ and although accidents do occasionally happen, they’re hardly the endemic problem I think many would have us believe. More serious accidents are caused by stay elbows than anything else, and drops are way down the list there.
So, to go back to my original question, are drops seen as being as "dangerous" as aerials, or not?

What do people think should be "drop etiquette"?

Perhaps if we paid more attention to floorcraft and many of the issues with these dangerous moves will disappear? :whistle:
I'll admit to being prejudiced here, and say that many of the people I've seen doing drops socially are also people who seem to have minimal floorcraft, they seem to expect people to get out of the way or something. But I'm just jealous 'coz I can't do them... :tears:

timbp

24th-January-2007, 12:21 PM

I bruised another girl’s eye doing a free spin
I have kicked and been kicked in the shins attempting ganchos
I have repetitive strain injury in my forearm from ceroc and wcs girls who pull too hard
I got sore knees trying to increase turn out for ballet
I got shin splits trying to deepen my plie
I’ve had twisted ankles from landing badly in jumps
I once stretched so hard I could hardly walk for a few days
I regularly bruise my ego attempting things I can’t do yet

But how's your cholesterol level?

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 12:29 PM

I think the biggest danger re drops and mini aerials are the beginners.

there are alot of people out there dancing for less than 2 months who see and try to copy these moves.

I don't think drops or mini aerials themselves are a danger provided they are done properly.

Take a nose bleader, it is, in theory at least, impossible for your partner to hit the floor. The danger people see from this move is people crashing in to you.

Ok if you are in this move (which ends in a ballroom drop position) and someone hits you from the sides or behind, the worst that will happen (again in theory) is your partner will fall an inch or so on to their backsides.

If someone hits you from the front, the biggest risk is your partner getting a foot to the head. If there is any rick of this happening at all then you should not be doing these moves and have very bad floorcraft.

I have never in the 1000's of hours I have been dancing (im knackered) seen either of these things happen. Yes I have seen people end up on the floor from these moves but then that is more to do with poor execution or the moves being done by someone who should know better.

Whilst writing this i remebered something that happened at hammersmith a few weeks ago in the Blues room. Some one done some kind of drop resulting in their partners head suddenly appearing in between my legs when i looked down. I don't know who either dancer was but that should not have happened.

Amir

24th-January-2007, 12:30 PM

But how's your cholesterol leve?

I don't know, but my body fat whilst training was 3 to 5% which was measured at a university lab, and not some motorway stop 'insert 50p and we'll tell you your height, weight and star sign' coin-operated machine.

Some people ask me how I do it. Well, I recommend "Dr. Eisenhower’s Revolutionary Programme to Shed Pounds with the Power of Thought!"

I will post the entire promo (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=333878#post333878) in the chat area of the forum.

timbp

24th-January-2007, 12:42 PM

I’ll back up Amir by going on record to say that drops are very common on social dance floors in NZ and although accidents do occasionally happen, they’re hardly the endemic problem I think many would have us believe. More serious accidents are caused by stay elbows than anything else, and drops are way down the list there.

I don't do aerials; I've never been tauight any and have no interest in learning them.
I do lead drops, If I have doubts about a follower's ability I will ask; but if she's followed everything else I've led then I may lead a drop wthout asking first.
Dips are standard moves in Sydney.

I have never had a partner injured through a drop or a dip. All injuries have been from straight floor moves, usually from another couple entering our space.

I do see the risk of drops, and there have been times I've pulled my partner out of a drop while thinking "I'm luicky that guy didn't kick her. I hope she didn't see how close he was."

But, as I said, injuries happen with the "safe" moves, not the risky ones.

Tessalicious

24th-January-2007, 01:09 PM

I don't think drops or mini aerials themselves are a danger provided they are done properly.

Take a nose bleader, it is, in theory at least, impossible for your partner to hit the floor. The danger people see from this move is people crashing in to you.Wrong - just imagine, the guy doesn't have a strong enough grip and lets go of one of the lady's hands while she is face down to the floor. It's not called a nosebleeder for nothing.

Any move where the lady has less control over her own weight distribution, angle to the ground or distance from the ground is more dangerous for that lady, because she can never guarantee that nothing will go wrong. And however strong or skilled a guy thinks he is, there will always be a lady that can make these moves go wrong if led on her.

It's about feeling safe - I personally like being lead into (musically appropriate :na: ) dips and drops as long as I feel safe (with the partner, the floor, the drop and with myself). If I don't, I will sabotage. If I'm not allowed to sabotage because my partner thinks his showing off is more important than my feeling secure, I'll sulk for the rest of the dance and that partner won't ask me again. Ditto aerials, except I don't like being lead into them anyway.

Double Trouble

24th-January-2007, 01:13 PM

I have to say woodface....some of the names of these moves are amazing, how do you remember them all?:whistle:

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 01:14 PM

I both lead and follow nose bleeders. If they are done correctly then there should not be a problem. The grip should be good enough of both parts not to require strength.

one of the first things I teach (and make a point of doing so every few weeks) is how a woman can block a drop or aerial. Are there any other teachers that do this out of interest?

I never lead a lady in to a drop unless I know her or have been asked to by the lady.

I do sympathise with the ladies as I dance with quite a high % of men, and they do tend to just throw you in to what ever move takes their fancy. One who had only been dancing a few weeks tried a monkey drop on me the other day !!!

killingtime

24th-January-2007, 01:27 PM

Wrong - just imagine, the guy doesn't have a strong enough grip and lets go of one of the lady's hands while she is face down to the floor. It's not called a nosebleeder for nothing.

Yeah that move doesn't appeal to me due to the restraints on the women and the position she is in. Saying that I do sometimes do basket leans into drops which is sort of similar except the woman doesn't start facing the ground.

The "oh sh*t" drop (I think it is called that) where you start a move and then let the woman slide and catch her at a later stage (so let gravity do it's thang for a while) really doesn't appeal at all. There is far to much chance for things to go wrong there. A miss of a hand grip and gravity shows us what it is good at.

Any move where the lady has less control over her own weight distribution, angle to the ground or distance from the ground is more dangerous for that lady, because she can never guarantee that nothing will go wrong.

Sure I've "gently lowered" a woman after losing balance with her and that was just in a low seducer. With "flasher" moves I lose control more if something goes wrong. If she is mid-air then gently guiding to the floor becomes a lot more difficult.

In addition to Ducasi's statement I've never been taught aerials at any Ceroc class (not even mini-aerials). There would have been a time when I was disappointed about that but now I don't really see much of a need in knowing them (guess I'm just less of a moves monster now).

Andy McGregor

24th-January-2007, 01:29 PM

Everything on this thread!!!Aren't we all being patient? It's like having somebody else's untrained puppy. Untrained puppies are eager to please, wag tails a lot, don't listen to anybody and are in imminent danger of knocking something over.

I know they lick your face too, but that doesn't really fit:sick:

Gav

24th-January-2007, 01:35 PM

{stuff about woodface}
I know they lick your face too, but that doesn't really fit:sick:

Actually... :whistle:

NZ Monkey

24th-January-2007, 01:40 PM

The "oh sh*t" drop (I think it is called that) where you start a move and then let the woman slide and catch her at a later stage (so let gravity do it's thang for a while) really doesn't appeal at all. There is far to much chance for things to go wrong there. A miss of a hand grip and gravity shows us what it is good at.

My understanding of that move is that it's essentially a one armed drop. In other words, as a leader you're performing the drop with your right hand much like a ballroom drop and should have control through the whole move. The left hand is the one that slides and adds support at the end but isn't strictly necessary for anything other than looking good. You should be able to perform the whole drop with just the one arm.

David Bailey

24th-January-2007, 01:44 PM

Isn't anyone going to say whether drops should be done at social dances?

Am I invisible? Hellloooo......

TheTramp

24th-January-2007, 01:49 PM

Isn't anyone going to say whether drops should be done at social dances?

I don't have a problem per se with people doing drops at a social dance. It again depends on the amount of room, and the stupidity of the person who wants to do them.

I've seen plenty of times, people putting their partners heads down into the middle of the dancefloor, almost inviting people dancing nearby to have a kick! Even just a travelling return, and you take your partner AWAY from people dancing nearby, and towards the 'relative' safety of the side of the room.

I guess it all boils down to respect for your partner, and concern about her safety.

Of course, all the usual things about only doing moves that you know, and only doing them with people that you trust, trust you and are happy doing such moves with you apply too.

Am I invisible? Hellloooo......

Hmmm. Nope. That's just wishful thinking :flower:

NZ Monkey

24th-January-2007, 01:49 PM

Isn't anyone going to say whether drops should be done at social dances?

Am I invisible? Hellloooo......Yes.

You can choose which question I was answering :devil:

Andy McGregor

24th-January-2007, 01:51 PM

Isn't anyone going to say whether drops should be done at social dances?

Am I invisible? Hellloooo......I can hear a voice, is anybody there? :devil:

I have rules at our venues. Here are the relevant bits;

2. Lifts/Airsteps - Lifts/Airsteps are not permitted at any of our dances or classes. We define these as any move where both the lady's feet are above the guy's knee with his foot on the ground. Any person seen doing these moves will be asked to stop. Persistent offenders will be asked to leave the venue.

3. Drops - Drops are not permitted at our dances or classes. We define drops as any moves where the lady's head is lower than the guy's waist. Any person seen doing these moves will be asked to stop. Persistent offenders will be asked to leave the venue. You can do dips so long as the lady is supporting most of her weight and the lady's head does not go below the guys hip - even then you really do need to be sure you are not putting the lady's head anywhere it can come onto contact with other dancers elbows, etc. And you should take great care and NEVER do a dip unless you have discussed it with your partner in advance or know them well and know they approve. If you do not want to do dips you MUST tell your partner before you commence dancing. N.B. Some organisers have advice for doing drops safely - our rule is that you can't do them! We have seen too many people injured by drops and believe that you can enjoy your social dancing without doing them - these moves are for cabarets and competitions and are taught at specialist workshops!

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 01:55 PM

Aren't we all being patient? It's like having somebody else's untrained puppy. Untrained puppies are eager to please, wag tails a lot, don't listen to anybody and are in imminent danger of knocking something over.

I know they lick your face too, but that doesn't really fit:sick:

Why Andy, I think I have put forward a valid argument about drops and mini aerials. There have been quite a few people come out of the woodwork and say that they do these moves (including one of your heros!), hence helping me to prove my point. Also Im quite please with the number of people who actually agree with my point of view.

If you don't like this thread then you don't have to read it do you?

I would like to think that as you hate drops and mini aerials so much you don't do them at all. That you have that much integrity.

With regards to DJ's question. I think my stance on it is quite clear. Yes they should /can be done provided, you are competant enough to do them (ability and floor craft), that your partner agrees to them, and that there is the space.

ducasi

24th-January-2007, 01:55 PM

My understanding of that move is that it's essentially a one armed drop. In other words, as a leader you're performing the drop with your right hand much like a ballroom drop and should have control through the whole move. The left hand is the one that slides and adds support at the end but isn't strictly necessary for anything other than looking good. You should be able to perform the whole drop with just the one arm.
:yeah:

I've got Steve's DVD with it on, plus I've been taught it to the n'th degree as part of the "Feeling Good" routine, and it's a a one-handed drop going in, but two hands at the bottom and coming out.

It can feel scary and look dramatic, but it's not so different from a ballroom drop in terms of safety.

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 02:00 PM

{rules}

but what you say is right for your venues does not make it right full stop.

I have seen more people injured from a hand jive than I have a drop or mini aerial. Should we be banning them as well? What about any kinds of spins. You fall, you have further for your head to go before it hits the floor.

Elbows, feet arms and hands should also be banned as they are the biggest cause of injury going.

Your rules for your venues are your rules. If i came to one of them venues I would respect and stand to them rules. Another venue without them rules and , if there was the space etc...., then i might do these moves.

Any other venues have the rules Andy stated?

The nose bleeder starts like a basket. The woman then leans forward, the unwrapping of her arms turn her on the way down, then ends like a BRD.

David Bailey

24th-January-2007, 02:08 PM

So we have:

I don't have a problem per se with people doing drops at a social dance. It again depends on the amount of room, and the stupidity of the person who wants to do them.

And also:

Drops - Drops are not permitted at our dances or classes. We define drops as any moves where the lady's head is lower than the guy's waist. Any person seen doing these moves will be asked to stop.
...
N.B. Some organisers have advice for doing drops safely - our rule is that you can't do them! We have seen too many people injured by drops and believe that you can enjoy your social dancing without doing them - these moves are for cabarets and competitions and are taught at specialist workshops!
Any other opinions on drops?

My interest is that drops are obviously more common than aerials on a social dance floor - are they more dangerous, if only because more people do them? Are we, in other words, getting in a flap about aerials where we should be concerned about drops?

(e.g. if drops are 10X more common than aerials and 5X less dangerous, drops would represent overall twice as much danger as aerials)

Genie

24th-January-2007, 02:09 PM

Actually I have to agree. I have only done one aerial, but quite a lot of dips and drops, and the only injuries I have received are from prezels, or that leg sweeping move thing. Oh, and another follow doing a step back onto my foot. I can't really blame the couple though, as the dance floor was ... well... standing room only. If it's that busy, you can't do anything, let along dips and drops.

David Bailey

24th-January-2007, 02:12 PM

Any other venues have the rules Andy stated?
Good question.

I've created a separate thread here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=333960) for this discussion, as I think it's wider than the Drops / Dips / Aerials issue.

Genie

24th-January-2007, 02:15 PM

Sorry David, we cross posted. I don't know if drops are any more dangerous that aerials on a social dance floor. We have a couple here who do both regularly and they dont seem to have any trouble. Obviously on a very busy dance floor it wouldn't be recommended. But if there's plenty of space and you're not doing anything you can't control safely, then I don't see why you shouldn't. One or two drops and an aerial in a dance seems to keep them happy. I think there is only room for injuries to happen if you are careless or stupid and don't check you have plenty of space. But most leads who do these things, because of their complexity, are good enough to be aware of their surroundings before they try them.

I wouldn't teach them in classes though, I think you should stick to workshops for those, as not everyone wants to learn them, or is capable.

MartinHarper

24th-January-2007, 02:18 PM

Isn't anyone going to say whether drops should be done at social dances?

My personal "rules":
I don't lead drops (dips, sure). Occasionally I backfollow them.
I'm happy enough to follow drops, with the proviso that my technique sucks.
I find other people doing drops around me slightly disconcerting, but I'm basically ok with them.

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 02:21 PM

Norm when they are taught there is an alternative.

Hit the nail on the head genie. Of course there are idiots out there that just try them anyhow without care or respect that is needed, but mini aerials and social drops are not all that complex.

Of someone who reg does baby aerials and non social drops on a social floor and has injured quite a few girls through doing them inacuratly and with alot of force to get the girl to do them. Why is nothing said to him? Because he is the teacher (not one on here i might add)

With most mini aerials they are over before they have begun and if done properly are compleatly safe (as any other move anyhow). I can't think of any mini aerial where a lady is not in control or is off balance.

Princess Fi

24th-January-2007, 02:29 PM

I have seen more people injured from a hand jive...

OK I have to ask - how?

killingtime

24th-January-2007, 02:29 PM

My understanding of that move is that it's essentially a one armed drop...

It can feel scary and look dramatic, but it's not so different from a ballroom drop in terms of safety.

That's so reassuring to know. I wonder whether the girl who was talking about it just saw it and didn't see the smoke and mirrors or (and I really hope not) someone who saw it tried it on her by letting go.

I do one handed dips quite a bit but I'm not sure about doing one handed drops.

I have rules at our venues.

2. Lifts/Airsteps - Lifts/Airsteps

3. Drops - Drops are not permitted at our dances or classes.

The first rule is don't talk about dance cla... oops.

killingtime

24th-January-2007, 02:30 PM

OK I have to ask - how?

RSI :D.

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 02:35 PM

OK I have to ask - how?

Elbows to ribs. Womens (and im sure mens) rings etc.

one time (did'nt see it) in a beginners lesson someone apparently got punched in the face! FN how !

Princess Fi

24th-January-2007, 02:50 PM

Elbows to ribs. Womens (and im sure mens) rings etc.

one time (did'nt see it) in a beginners lesson someone apparently got punched in the face! FN how !

Quick quetsion - am I being dense in thinking that a hand jive and an arm jive are the same thing - cause if they are I'm wondering why anyone (even a brand new first timer with no dance experience) would be doing it with strong punching fists at head level?

Seems far more liekly to be that an aerial (regadless of size) could go wrong and result in injury than an arm jive.

(I can just picture the threads now complaining of these advanced dancers that put beginners into arm jives...:confused:)

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 03:00 PM

Arm jive and hand jive are the same thing.

You would be suprrised at what beginners do. I reguarly have to fight the urge to tell some of them to save their money, or take up darts.

killingtime

24th-January-2007, 03:01 PM

Quick quetsion - am I being dense in thinking that a hand jive and an arm jive are the same thing

Oh, I actually assumed we were talking about the hand jive (it might have been before your time Fi).

I think people can do stupid things even with beginner moves. I, in part, assume that's down to lack of experience and such at that level. As people get more experienced the chances of doing ill with such moves is less likely. Other moves have more of an intrinsic risk. Yes a woman might injure herself doing a First Move but the risk involved (and possibly consequences) of such moves are less than that of a drop.

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 03:03 PM

I don't overly agree with that killingtime, but can see why people think that.

A move of any type is only as safe as the person performing the move.

Princess Fi

24th-January-2007, 03:12 PM

You would be suprrised at what beginners do.

uuuuh, no. I don't think I would be - I may not have been dancing the decades that others here have, but my venue does have beginners (and not only have I seen them dance but I've danced with them too) and I can't say I've ever seen or heard of a hand jive landing someone in hospital.

(Oh and just a side note I think if I were a beginner and I read your comment, I would be at least slightly offended - I'll assume however that it wasn't meant to be read that way)

Its like what KT was saying about the risk factor. An arm jive is a low risk move - most people would be OK doing it on a crowded dance floor and wouldn't require a 10 foot barrier between them and the nearest couple. Most people in fact would consider it absurd to propose that.

Aerials have a risk associated with them - same as every other move. But the risk of serious injury is much higher than an arm jive. That's why most people are wanting to exercise greater caution.

killingtime

24th-January-2007, 03:16 PM

A move of any type is only as safe as the person performing the move.

But surely some moves are inherently more risky? I mean juggling sticks and blades is basically the same but the consequences of cocking it up in one case is having something painfully bop you in the head whereas in the other it means that people might talking about you in a past tense sort of way.

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 03:29 PM

It's all proprtion though as well

I have never seen anyone hurt by a donkey drop. Have never seen a donkey drop being done on a social floor.

I have seen and known of people being hurt by hand jives. See them everywhere you look.

A safe person would not perform a move like a donkey drop were as a person less safe will do a hand jive.

Guess what im trying to say is that yes the potential is worse (though you could just as easily hit your head from a fall from a first move) if you are up on someone shoulders, but these are not social aerials. Social aerials (mini aerials) in the greater scheme of things are pretty low risk.

I know people wont agree with that, but think of how likely is is to come a cropper from a lap sit compared to having your fingers twisted off during a return.

spindr

24th-January-2007, 03:45 PM

Hand jive is that "dance" in Grease -- one potato, two potatoes -- hitch-hiking, etc.

Arm jive, is a modern jive move.

SpinDr

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 03:49 PM

Hand jive is that "dance" in Grease -- one potato, two potatoes -- hitch-hiking, etc.

Arm jive, is a modern jive move.

SpinDr

Yep depends on who the teacher is. known it to be called arm jive, hand jive and arm rock. all in MJ classes.

Ghost

24th-January-2007, 04:05 PM

I have seen and known of people being hurt by hand jives. See them everywhere you look.

A safe person would not perform a move like a donkey drop were as a person less safe will do a hand jive.

Is it fair to say that an unsafe dancer doing an armjive and doing a drop or aerial, can do far more damage with the latter?

I mean just being stupid for a moment, lets say I want to injure my partner. So armjive I get to punch her repeatedly in the face and ribs - broken nose, broken floating rib is probably the worst I could do. KO maybe? Lapsit - send her ass over teakettle backwards - broken neck, damaged spine. If I can trap her leg just right I can probably tear some ligaments in her knee, dislocate the ankle. Could probably get in a decent punch on her way down, If I can trap her arm I can break the elbow too.

Now a safe dancer can do both moves without injurying the person provided nothing unexpected happens, eg she slips on the floor as she goes for the jump. It's not the safe dancers I'm so worried about.

So I see two different problems with this. One by encouraging drops, aerials etc you give the unsafe dancers more dangerous toys to play with. Granted the lunatics will just copy stuff they see, or get the dvds, but there's people in the middle ground who would dance differently if drops and aerials were only taught at workshops with the provisio - "dont do this in freestyle".

The second problem is "stuff happens". Doesn't matter how good you are - see Amir's list of injuries he's inflicted :sick: . Then it comes down to what you consider acceptable risk. I'll risk doing an armjive and having a beginner try and punch me. I won't risk doing a lift and maiming someone. But that's me. Different people are going to place the line of safety at different points.

Something I've personally found is to be wary when the old timers start going - "y'know this is more dangerous than you think". Still walking and talking in large part due to advice along those lines.

But it's all luck in the end. You can dance aerials the rest of your life and never hurt anyone. You could break your honey's nose tomorrow doing a manspin. It's a bit like the warning label on cigarettes
"Warning Drops and Aerials can be dangerous to the health of you and your partner"

Plenty of people still smoke though

TheTramp

24th-January-2007, 05:24 PM

I'm wondering why anyone (even a brand new first timer with no dance experience) would be doing it with strong punching fists at head level?

Stand on the stage sometime and try to teach it (an arm jive)! No matter how many times you show people and tell them to take it down to hip level, there are still some beginners (and intermediates) still doing it at head level.

And don't even get me started on telling people to push 'down and through' on a push spin! :na:

Princess Fi

24th-January-2007, 05:30 PM

Stand on the stage sometime ...

Cool! I've just been given permission to rush the stage during a class! :waycool:

MartinHarper

24th-January-2007, 05:30 PM

Hand jive is that "dance" in Grease -- one potato, two potatoes -- hitch-hiking, etc.

Since hearing this song I've kinda wanted to see hand jiving. I should grab a copy of the movie.

http://www.eric-clapton.co.uk/ecla/lyrics/willie-and-the-hand-jive.html

TheTramp

24th-January-2007, 05:33 PM

Cool! I've just been given permission to rush the stage during a class! :waycool:

Or come to Perth and demo for me one week! :na:

Princess Fi

24th-January-2007, 05:36 PM

Or come to Perth and demo for me one week! :na:

Can I not do both? :innocent:

TheTramp

24th-January-2007, 05:48 PM

Can I not do both? :innocent:

It'd be lovely to see you any Thursday of your choice, for whatever reason :flower:

David Franklin

24th-January-2007, 06:41 PM

For reasons that should be obvious, I've not really bothered to keep up with this thread, but as many on both sides have noted, a lot of the acrimony is about the word "busy", and what it means.
I think we've also reached a consensus that about 5 metres between couples is a sensible safety zone if you want to do an aerial.

So let's take some figures:

Ealing Town Hall (Victoria Hall) is 22.5mx13.6m or 306m^2.

If you require 5 metres of separation between couples, and assume a couple fits inside a 0.5 metre circle, then the densest possible packing (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html) possible lets us fit in 306 * .906 * 4/ (pi * 5.5^2) = 11.6 couples. (This assumes there are no tables taking up space).

Of course, you can't have .6 of a couple, so you can really only fit 11 couples there with space for aerials. But for the sake of the argument, let's call it 12 couples.

Surprised how few couples it is? Well, from experience at Ealing Town Hall when not many couples have turned up, that feels about right to me.

How many dancers Ealing can accommodate is somewhat subjective; one of the busier events is Franco's new year event, which was regarded as overcrowded with 300 tickets, but IMHO was acceptible with 250. That's 125 couples. Yes, not everyone is dancing at the same time, but on the other hand there are a lot of tables at the event restricting the available space. (If you think I'm cheating here, I did actually find a source on rec.arts.dance indicating 1m^2 per couple was acceptable. That would be 300 couples! :eek: )

So "how busy is too busy, according to the 5m rule"? Well, if everyone is uniformly spread, if the floor is at more than 12/125 = 9.6% capacity, it's too busy.

I'm not saying these calculations are exact, or that on a busier floor, you won't be able to find an area with a little more space than the average due to bunching. But I think they put the "50% capacity" figure into perspective.

Achaeco

24th-January-2007, 06:43 PM

i have seen that done in some classes but not all of them. They normally give you a drop option or an alternative dip. I have never seen aerials taught in a normal Ceroc night of lessons only in workshops and on weekenders when they tend to be mini aerials.

A question i have perhaps somebody could enlighten me....

Somebody said to me recently that aerials were being banned from competitions is this true.? If it is true do we know why?

Well a have writen the web site for www.achance2dance.co.uk and if you take a look you will see we hold an AIR STEPS category. Maybe WOODFACE would like to enter. Well Woodface?:wink:

Tessalicious

24th-January-2007, 06:52 PM

The name 'Airsteps' always puts me in mind of one of those old cartoons where the baddy, usually Wile E Coyote, runs off the edge of a cliff after the good guy, treads air in a frantic circular motion for about 2 metres and then plummets to the ground, usually breaking several limbs which are somehow instantly in plaster casts and bandages, and getting a swollen nose and lots of bruises.

(In true Amir style, it's not relevant to anything, just felt like mentioning it :whistle: )

David Bailey

24th-January-2007, 06:55 PM

stuff
Good God, David, how can you still even think at this point, let alone calculate? :respect:

TheTramp

24th-January-2007, 07:04 PM

Good God, David, how can you still even think at this point, let alone calculate? :respect:

Well. It's only been one night so far. Just wait until he's had 4 months of sleepless nights. And then lets see if he can calculate! :flower:

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 07:16 PM

{mathmatical stuff}

1st off just read a thread with your news. Congrats:cheers:.

There are a lot of factors to take in to consideration, not just space. Suprised you've not mentioned slippery floors yet. Any calcs on that?:na:

There are a few dances that I have been to where if you are the only couple on the floor, it can be classed as busy. Depends on your interpritation.

If I had known that 1 or two people would take exception with the word 'busy' then I would have done your calcs and given them an exact figure in square meters. But then again im a computer programmer, not a mathmatician :wink:.

Lee Bartholomew

24th-January-2007, 07:18 PM

Well a have writen the web site for www.achance2dance.co.uk (http://www.achance2dance.co.uk) and if you take a look you will see we hold an AIR STEPS category. Maybe WOODFACE would like to enter. Well Woodface?:wink:

Funny enough, im meeting someone tonight that wants to enter a few comps this year, so might see you there. Will bookmark the site and look later tonight.

Achaeco

24th-January-2007, 07:29 PM

Funny enough, im meeting someone tonight that wants to enter a few comps this year, so might see you there. Will bookmark the site and look later tonight.

Fair play to you! I await your entry

Ghost

24th-January-2007, 09:12 PM

Good God, David, how can you still even think at this point, let alone calculate? :respect:
:yeah: :worthy:

I think we've also reached a consensus that about 5 metres between couples is a sensible safety zone if you want to do an aerial.

Ealing Town Hall (Victoria Hall) is 22.5mx13.6m or 306m^2.

12 couples.

250. That's 125 couples.

9.6% capacity, it's too busy.

Or as Amir once said about doing boleos in freestyle "wait till the end of the evening"

There are a lot of factors to take in to consideration, not just space. Suprised you've not mentioned slippery floors yet. Any calcs on that?:na:

Assuming you're agreeing with David's calcs, what other factors are there that need to be taken into consideration? Floorcraft seems a given. Is the speed of the track an issue eg safer to slow music? etc

Sheepman

25th-January-2007, 03:20 AM

Hand-bouncing is taught all over the country in normal Ceroc classes encourgaing this

The more experienced dancers feel that on balance it is better not to do hand-bouncing of any kind on a social dance floor, regardless of how busy it is.

Right?
Has anyone mentioned to Ceroc that the hand bouncing is actually a lead for the lady to jump up and down? (a mini aerial)

And that the semi circle is the lead for her to perform a cartwheel? (A major aerial).
:devil:

straycat

25th-January-2007, 10:04 AM

Well a have writen the web site for www.achance2dance.co.uk and if you take a look you will see we hold an AIR STEPS category.

[OFF TOPIC]I can't go near that website. The colours make my eyes bleed http://www.lindy-jazz.co.uk/images/common/11.gif [/OFFTOPIC]

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 10:34 AM

I don't have the will to sit here and go through DF's cals so I am taking them as given.

Speed of a track may be one factor. Speed of the floor (slipperyness) is another. How well you know your partner another. Tiredness another. Etc Etc Etc.

A lot of people have mentioned cracked heads when doing mini aerials, I fail to see that (athough not impossible) this has ever happened. Of course there is always a first time and if MJ goes on for infinity then it will happen one day, but what are the risks?

Mini aerials, taking a hip rest for an example (http://www.cerocphotos.com/main.php/v/sinderella2006/20061229_0426.jpg.html)
are done over a very short period (one or two beats) and the lady does not shift off her vertical axis.

Say someone was to collide with you whilst you were doing this move. the lady is not in a position where she can not safely land also the man has a grip on her which would prevent her spinning 180 degrees and landing on her head.

This is a good example of a mini aerial and one that would even be allowed at Andy's classes. :devil:

Andy McGregor

25th-January-2007, 10:48 AM

I've been thinking about this matter a bit more. There seems to be a school of thought that it's OK to do drops on a social dance floor if it isn't busy. To me this is the same as somebody saying it's OK to speed in your car when the traffic's light or the road's empty.

Looking at the speeding, you never know what somebody else is going to do. It doesn't matter how good you are it takes two to have a collision. Also, you don't know about the surface, etc, etc.

It's the same on a social dance floor. You never know when somebody is going to think, "I'll walk across the floor as it's fairly clear" or "as there's plenty of room I think I'll triple-step around the floor" or even "there's loads of room, I think I'll chuck in a air-step" (mid-air collision if two people think it at the same time :tears:). Somebody else might have caused the accident, but you are still a part of it and the fact that you've done a drop or an air-step makes the injury much worse than RSI.

I put a lot of thought into my rules for lifts and drops. I had to balance enjoyment and safety and consider the level of risk vs pleasure. I think people can get a great deal of pleasure out of their dancing without taking the risks that woodface thinks are acceptable.

As far as I see it, this is a debating forum as well as a social one. This debate has seen a number of experienced people agreeing with each other and woodface disagreeing with them. We have not changed our stance and nor has woodface. I think it is unlikely that woodface will change his view, this makes further debate wasteful, I will not keep repeating myself on this thread and will therefore stop disagreeing with woodface on this subject. It does not mean I have nothing to say on the subject and it doesn't mean I agree with woodface, it simply means I can see nothing to gain from continuing :flower:

straycat

25th-January-2007, 10:50 AM

I don't have the will to sit here and go through DF's cals so I am taking them as given.

In other words: "na na naaaa I'm not listening!!!!"?? I'm not sure how else to interpret that :what:
If you'd said that at the outset, it could have saved a whole heap of debate ;)

NZ Monkey

25th-January-2007, 10:58 AM

In other words: "na na naaaa I'm not listening!!!!"?? I'm not sure how else to interpret that :what:
If you'd said that at the outset, it could have saved a whole heap of debate ;)That's not what he said at all Straycat. He said he was accepting them as truth.

straycat

25th-January-2007, 11:02 AM

That's not what he said at all Straycat. He said he was accepting them as truth.

I admire your optimism :respect:

NZ Monkey

25th-January-2007, 11:16 AM

As far as I see it, this is a debating forum as well as a social one. This debate has seen a number of experienced people agreeing with each other and woodface disagreeing with them. To be fair Andy, you’ve also had a number of experienced people disagreeing with said other experienced people.

While I’m not going to contend the aerials, you’ve had a number of people from the other hemisphere (including Amir) state that drops don’t appear to be a problem or an undue risk on a social dance floor where they come from. Considering how often folk here have noted that they do drops almost compulsively is it unreasonable to assume that they may know something about the subject? These are not exactly uncaring mavericks we’re talking about here.

I don’t think Woodface is completely right but I do think he’s being misrepresented by his most fervent critics, and it bugs me that what could be an interesting discussion seems to have become a bullying session. Admittedly he isn't really helping himself by shooting off the cuff constantly but he's been much more patient and polite than anyone else involved in this ''debate'', and has had the least reason to be.

Ghost

25th-January-2007, 12:05 PM

While I’m not going to contend the aerials, you’ve had a number of people from the other hemisphere (including Amir) state that drops don’t appear to be a problem or an undue risk on a social dance floor where they come from. Considering how often folk here have noted that they do drops almost compulsively is it unreasonable to assume that they may know something about the subject? These are not exactly uncaring mavericks we’re talking about here.

I fully accept that Woodface is representative of some Ceroc dancers who read this Forum. So to me there are two important parts to this thread.

1. The advice of experienced dancers saying why they think aerials and/or drops are a bad idea.

But I also feel there's a case of "While I think this is a bad idea, if you're going to do it anyway, here's the best way to minimise your risks"

So DavidF's calc of a ballpark estimate that really you would want I'd call a quiet floor ie <10% (and as engineers tend to build in safety margings it should probably be <5%)

The slipperiness of the floor and the speed of the music are other factors that have been suggested. What else?

I'm also inclined to think that the NZ / Oz dynamic is rather different from here. Better floorcraft and the dancers are more likely to know each other are the two that spring to mind. It's one thing to have DavidB and Lily doing aerials at one end fo the hall at the end of the night and DavidF and Bryony at the other, than to have two random couples who know nothing about each other.

Ghost

25th-January-2007, 12:42 PM

Found this while looking for floorcraft tips.

The reason aerials are singled out is that the "given point" where they become unsafe to perform is about 98% of the time on a social floor. I would put drops about 70%; dips and seducers about 20%; and 'normal' moves about 2%.

Floorcraft is all about reducing the potential of accidents to what you consider a reasonably safe level. Unfortunatly what you consider a reasonably safe level may not be what I consider reasonably safe. And my safety levels are probably different from the person next to me. BUT I will judge your floorcraft on my levels. :shrug: unfair perhaps, but I only know my scale - not yours. In order to protect my partner from the potential of harm, I will avoid anyone who is beyond what I consider this "given point".

Lory

25th-January-2007, 01:03 PM

I went to a new 'Ceroc night' earlier this week and although I'd say the majority were completely new, there were a good number of people who'd obviously done some form of MJ previously (NONE of whom I knew).

Where they'd learnt I really couldn't say but one lady did mention another Jive organisation that I haven't heard of but anyway, getting to the point...

..'every' man I danced with, no matter how inexperienced they felt to me, attempted a drop and the floor was heaving! :sick:

So I believe, it must have been accepted and taught as the norm.

David Franklin

25th-January-2007, 01:57 PM

While I’m not going to contend the aerials, If you're not going to contend the aerials, you're rather missing the point, at least from where I'm standing.

If someone says "it's perfectly safe to juggle with beanbags or chainsaws", I don't think you can defend the statement by saying "you know, I don't really see anything wrong with juggling beanbags".

Your argument seems to be such a statement is "50% right", and you may even have a point. But it's the 50% that's wrong that is the problem.

As far as aerials being OK in NZ, I have no direct experience of what goes on there, but this is what the Ceroc NZ FAQ (http://www.ceroc.co.nz/faq.html) says (emphasis mine):

Air steps (aerials) & lifts are for competitions and performances not the social dance floor and are banned at the studio.

NZ Monkey

25th-January-2007, 02:33 PM

If you're not going to contend the aerials, you're rather missing the point, at least from where I'm standing.

If someone says "it's perfectly safe to juggle with beanbags or chainsaws", I don't think you can defend the statement by saying "you know, I don't really see anything wrong with juggling beanbags".

Your argument seems to be such a statement is "50% right", and you may even have a point. But it's the 50% that's wrong that is the problem.

As far as aerials being OK in NZ, I have no direct experience of what goes on there, but this is what the Ceroc NZ FAQ says (emphasis mine):
Air steps (aerials) & lifts are for competitions and performances not the social dance floor and are banned at the studio.

Congratulations David. You just managed to take a post I made, where I specifically said I wasn't contending any of the points you had made about aerials...... and made it about aerials.

Woodface has been talking about both aerials and drops, so I think I should be allowed to say ‘’beanbags aren’t such a big deal’’ if I so choose. That isn’t missing a point, it’s recognising a difference.

CerocNZ HQ ban aerials on the social floor, but they don’t ban drops. They don’t do that because they haven’t found them to be an undue risk. If you look closely, I only mentioned drops in my post. As I said earlier, these are not dangerously inclined people we’re talking about and I know them personally. On rare occasions when the floor really has been too crowded they’ve even gone as far as asking the clientele not to perform any.

The only *argument* I was making was that Woodface has been misrepresented, which a couple of other posters have pointed out and been ignored doing as well. That has nothing to do with safety, drops, aerials, carrots, tea or anything else that isn't misrepresentation.

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 02:41 PM

In other words: "na na naaaa I'm not listening!!!!"?? I'm not sure how else to interpret that :what:
If you'd said that at the outset, it could have saved a whole heap of debate ;)

Interpret that to what you want to hear. You normally do with my posts. :what:

That's not what he said at all Straycat. He said he was accepting them as truth.

Ah, there you go. People do read my posts correctly :clap:

I admire your optimism :respect:

Or their ability to read?

If you're not going to contend the aerials, you're rather missing the point, at least from where I'm standing.

If someone says "it's perfectly safe to juggle with beanbags or chainsaws", I don't think you can defend the statement by saying "you know, I don't really see anything wrong with juggling beanbags".

Your argument seems to be such a statement is "50% right", and you may even have a point. But it's the 50% that's wrong that is the problem.

As far as aerials being OK in NZ, I have no direct experience of what goes on there, but this is what the Ceroc NZ FAQ (http://www.ceroc.co.nz/faq.html) says (emphasis mine):

DF I have said all along and will repeat again. Not all aerials are for the social floor. Will write that another way just incase you did not understand. There are some aerials that should not be done on a social floor. Once again. The social floor is not the place to do most aerials.

straycat

25th-January-2007, 02:50 PM

Once again. The social floor is not the place to do most aerials.

You realise that that sentance only needed the removal of the penultimate word for us to be in total agreement...

It's clearly a sticking point for both of us though, and to avoid further going-round-in-circles, I shall be joining Andy M on the bench :cool:

TheTramp

25th-January-2007, 03:31 PM

Interpret that to what you want to hear. You normally do with my posts. :what:

While I went onto the bench regarding the aerials discussion many pages back, I have still been commenting on other aspects of this discussion.

So, here goes again. :whistle: Please note, that while I'm saying this in response to something that woodface has said, it can equally apply to everyone else.

It's not good telling people that they are mis-interpreting what you say, and hence they are stupid/wrong/doing it deliberatly/etc.

If the majority of people are mis-interpreting it, then you've said it in the wrong way. And you have to accept that what you've said has come out in a different way to how you intended it.

Of course, that doesn't stop people taking things that are downright obvious to mean other things. Or deliberately mis-interpreting either. :flower:

Clive Long

25th-January-2007, 03:38 PM

Interpret that to what you want to hear. You normally do with my posts.

If people feel that a certain move is showing off, be it an aerial or grounded move, then it is them that has a problem.

In this, as in most of your posts, you betray your opinion of yourself and your attitude to other people. It's not one that I share.

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 03:41 PM

Have just re-read through this thread and made note of some of the more interesting posts.

They are these ones.

13
24
52
56
65
95
101
119
135
146
167
173
192
193
210
217
233
234
256
258

Just want to question a few things. Would be nice if Andy and Stray came off the bench and answered them too. So we are all clear, please look at this picture of a mini aerial http://www.cerocphotos.com/main.php/v/sinderella2006/20061229_0426.jpg.html

1) DF has said that he has done aerials on a social floor http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333011&postcount=65 Why has no one (despite me raising the issue a few times) questioned this?

2) In other posts Andy has refered to Amir as someone he respects and admires and his advice should be taken on board (remember the spinning thread anyone?). Why is it when Amir posts his opinions (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333743&postcount=233) (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333743&postcount=233%29), Andy dismisses them? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333744&postcount=234)

3) Sorry Andy not singling you out. One of Andys rules is that no lifts etc should be done with ladys feet above knee height. So the mini aerial that we see in the picture is allowed and therefore in your view, safe?

4) I have a few times in the thread made reference to mini aerials drops etc that just don't exist (marmalade, monkey lift, donkey drop etc) why did not experts that people refer to question this? (did get questioned over a arm jive which is an actual move though lol).

5) why are social drops and aerials called social drops and aerials if they are not to be done on a social floor. More to the point google the workshops in them!!!

DF has asked me to answer this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333074&postcount=80)
I will just point out to DF that I did not quote him as such, i was relitterating, what i belived to be his stance (note in the post he refers to there is a lack of quotation marks.

With regards to lilys question (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333342&postcount=153) (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333342&postcount=153%29), I did state that it was something I was told. I would have thought that that was enough implication that it should not be taken as fact. If the information I was given is false then I appologise for that.:flower:

straycat

25th-January-2007, 03:44 PM

Morris dancing? I have a costume you can borrow. The bells on your tights will come in handy to let me know when you are approaching......cos' I cant read minds like you. :na:

Oh - I'd want to get good at it before I presume to wear one of those flashy costumes - it would feel like I was pretending to skills that I don't have. If you have the outfit though - I take it you can teach the dance?

Double Trouble

25th-January-2007, 03:48 PM

Oh - I'd want to get good at it before I presume to wear one of those flashy costumes - it would feel like I was pretending to skills that I don't have. If you have the outfit though - I take it you can teach the dance?

I'll teach you some manners before i show you how to morris dance.

*I'll get my coat*

David Bailey

25th-January-2007, 03:53 PM

2) In other posts Andy has refered to Amir as someone he respects and admires and his advice should be taken on board
Well, in general dancing terms, yes.

I wouldn't take his advice on haircuts - but fortunately I don't have to worry about that any more. :grin:

straycat

25th-January-2007, 03:56 PM

I'll teach you some manners before i show you how to morris dance.

With the greatest of respect, I think I will decline your generous offer. I place great store in politeness, and I would prefer to retain that viewpoint. :cool:

*I'll get my coat*

I'll call you a taxi.

straycat

25th-January-2007, 03:57 PM

Just want to question a few things. Would be nice if Andy and Stray came off the bench and answered them too.

I will happily do so later today - I just have to make sure one of your cheerleaders gets safely home first. :wink:

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 04:03 PM

I will happily do so later today - I just have to make sure one of your cheerleaders gets safely home first. :wink:

Im more worried about your saftey if your taking a trip with one of my cheerleaders. :wink:

Double Trouble

25th-January-2007, 04:03 PM

I'll call you a taxi.

Call me what you like, ducky. I prefer 'back end of a bus' if we are going to get personal...thats more accurate.:flower:

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 04:19 PM

Call me what you like, ducky. I prefer 'back end of a bus' if we are going to get personal...thats more accurate.:flower:

Compleatly untrue. :flower:

Whitebeard

25th-January-2007, 04:29 PM

Double Trouble

25th-January-2007, 04:32 PM

Ho ho (to mimic Fletch), Baldrick would be proud of you !

Woodface.......glad you let them in on your little joke...seeing as none of the 'experts' noticed.

Seems they didnt read your posts properly after all.

:respect:

killingtime

25th-January-2007, 05:08 PM

4) I have a few times in the thread made reference to mini aerials drops etc that just don't exist (marmalade, monkey lift, donkey drop etc) why did not experts that people refer to question this? (did get questioned over a arm jive which is an actual move though lol).

Well except you called it a hand jive which added confusion as it isn't a MJ move but a different dance (http://www.howtojive.com/intro-hand-jive.htm). Since it still made sense (that is you could get injured doing it) then a few of us assumed you were talking about that. Of course I understand that people have different names for the same move, it's just in this case the name has a much stronger association with something else that already exists.

I didn't look up the aerials in question though. When you mentioned "lap sit" as being dangerous, for example, I assumed it wasn't the same lap sit that I know and love. Though I don't claim to know anything about aerials at all, I know a bit about Arial though :).

Trouble

25th-January-2007, 05:09 PM

Compleatly untrue. :flower:

BUCKET SOMEBODY :rolleyes:

Princess Fi

25th-January-2007, 05:11 PM

(did get questioned over a arm jive which is an actual move though lol).

Actually you got questioned over a hand jive :flower:

I have seen more people injured from a hand jive than I have a drop or mini aerial.

(hey as long as we're being pedantic...)

[EDIT] - Damn, KT got in there first! Way to steal my thunder Dad!

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 05:14 PM

Well except you called it a hand jive which added confusion as it isn't a MJ move but a different dance (http://www.howtojive.com/intro-hand-jive.htm). Since it still made sense (that is you could get injured doing it) then a few of us assumed you were talking about that. Of course I understand that people have different names for the same move, it's just in this case the name has a much stronger association with something else that already exists.

I didn't look up the aerials in question though. When you mentioned "lap sit" as being dangerous, for example, I assumed it wasn't the same lap sit that I know and love. Though I don't claim to know anything about aerials at all, I know a bit about Arial though :).

Hand jive is cert a MJ move, just a different name for an arm jive. There are loads of little name differences for the same move ie, was in a class where they done a "butterfly" thankfully this was not the "butterfly" i know which is a major drop.

CentrAlex

25th-January-2007, 05:21 PM

Well except you called it a hand jive which added confusion as it isn't a MJ move but a different dance (http://www.howtojive.com/intro-hand-jive.htm).

Hand jive is cert a MJ move, just a different name for an arm jive. There are loads of little name differences for the same move ie, was in a class where they done a "butterfly" thankfully this was not the "butterfly" i know which is a major drop.

Earth to woodface...you are on the CEROC Scotland Forum...use the CEROC names!! When I read it I thought you meant the actual form of dance as well!

Ghost

25th-January-2007, 05:21 PM

Have just re-read through this thread and made note of some of the more interesting posts.

1) DF has said that he has done aerials on a social floor http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333011&postcount=65 Why has no one (despite me raising the issue a few times) questioned this?
Speaking for me personally I take this as a good thing ie he's speaking from experience. "I've done aerials on the dance floor in the past, but now with the benefit of more experience I feel they're a bad idea"

NB - this is how I'm reading what he's saying - I could well be wrong.

4) I have a few times in the thread made reference to mini aerials drops etc that just don't exist (marmalade, monkey lift, donkey drop etc) why did not experts that people refer to question this? (did get questioned over a arm jive which is an actual move though lol).
Yeah I wondered about those too but there's so many moves that I doubt anyone knows them all, not to mention some people call the same thing different names, or make up there own moves / variations. Or someone from NZ may have shown you a move, or it may come from Lindy etc.....

5) why are social drops and aerials called social drops and aerials if they are not to be done on a social floor. More to the point google the workshops in them!!!
Well this goes back to my point a while back - if Ceroc are promoting them while the more experienced dancers are saying "Here be dragons" who do you listen to?

Oh and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KggYkRfNJjI) is worth a look - listen for the applause at the end, proof that different people draw the line in different places.

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 05:26 PM

Earth to woodface...you are on the CEROC Scotland Forum...use the CEROC names!! When I read it I thought you meant the actual form of dance as well!

Theres alot of people on here who don't go to ceroc. It is a Le Roc term i belive (at least thats where I heard it)

Tessalicious

25th-January-2007, 05:37 PM

:rolleyes: Woodface, let's face it, you're hardly known for being completely accurate with facts. Apart from the arm-jive/hand-jive thing, here's another example from way back on page 1:
A back pass is fine providing the floor is not TOO busy.

A shoulder site is fine providing the floor is not TOO busy
Now, in the Ceroc book, a back pass is a beginner's move, as is a shoulder slide - it was only obviously later that you meant a different example of an aerial you think is safe. Can the 'experts' really be blamed for not being sure that you weren't just using your own, woodface-world names for moves that they know as something completely different?

Ok, they're pretty silly names that you gave, but I can think of some moves with even sillier names, so I'm not going to object to the concept that one could seriously be called 'the marmalade' - maybe it's talking about what the lady could look like if it went wrong...

killingtime

25th-January-2007, 06:11 PM

[EDIT] - Damn, KT got in there first! Way to steal my thunder Dad!

Bwahahahaha!

Don't worry you'll be quicker of the mark next time, daughter of mine :hug:.

Hand jive is cert a MJ move, just a different name for an arm jive.

I've never heard it call that. Which is fine, as I'm from a Ceroc background. But I do know of a dance called the Hand Jive as do regular non-dancing folks. It's that dance they do in Grease. I wasn't alone in making that connection, most likely because we all know the move you were talking about as an Arm Jive here.

TheTramp

25th-January-2007, 06:17 PM

4) I have a few times in the thread made reference to mini aerials drops etc that just don't exist (marmalade, monkey lift, donkey drop etc) why did not experts that people refer to question this? (did get questioned over a arm jive which is an actual move though lol).

Now you're just being silly...

What makes you think that you know all the moves, and everyone's names for them. It so happens that I know a move called the monkey lift. I believe that some people call it the "monkey blowjob", or something similar. But I've never been that rude.

I have a number of moves that I have given my own names to. And you don't know them, or what they are. Does that mean that they don't exist as well?

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 06:17 PM

nevermind. Pointless arguing over a small point. Went dancing last night at a local le roc venue and it was def called a hand jive there. Done a quick search on google to see if I could find any reference to it. No luck but did find it was also called a push pull.

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 06:19 PM

Now you're just being silly...

What makes you think that you know all the moves, and everyone's names for them. It so happens that I know a move called the monkey lift. I believe that some people call it the "monkey blowjob", or something similar. But I've never been that rude.

I have a number of moves that I have given my own names to. And you don't know them, or what they are. Does that mean that they don't exist as well?

It was more the point people were saying these moves were dangerous without knowing what they were.

MartinHarper

25th-January-2007, 06:24 PM

It was more the point people were saying these moves were dangerous without knowing what they were.

Quotes or it didn't happen.

TheTramp

25th-January-2007, 06:27 PM

It was more the point people were saying these moves were dangerous without knowing what they were.

You said that they were baby aerials. Some people are obviously against the use of aerials at any point in social dancing. Ergo, they didn't need to know specifics to know that they considered them dangerous.

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 06:27 PM

Quotes or it didn't happen.

lol.

have read through the thread too many times to do it again.

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 06:37 PM

You said that they were baby aerials. Some people are obviously against the use of aerials at any point in social dancing. Ergo, they didn't need to know specifics to know that they considered them dangerous.

of course you should know the specifics. This is a big part of the argument. there are people seem to be saying (and variations of)

A) Aerials are safe.

B) Some aerials are safe in the right situations.

C) no aerials are safe.

I fall in the middle. Time and place for everything. Im not overly bothered about people saying one thing or another and cont to what you might think Trampy, I do take people thoughts etc on board and if there was something said that made me change my view point then I would say so as I have done in previous threads.

Something that does slightly annoy me is the fact people have called me dangerous a few times. these people don't know me nor have they danced / seen me dance. the fact that they could jump to this conclusion based on the fact I say a few mini aerials are ok in the right situation is worrying.

Also the fact that I have not been dancing x amount of years means that my thoughts and opinions seem to be worthless to those that have been dancing longer. Can't be bothered to find the quote or who it was from but was asked who I was to question those who have been dancing longer!!!!!!!

TheTramp

25th-January-2007, 07:23 PM

Also the fact that I have not been dancing x amount of years means that my thoughts and opinions seem to be worthless to those that have been dancing longer. Can't be bothered to find the quote or who it was from but was asked who I was to question those who have been dancing longer!!!!!!!

And you think that this is unreasonable?

To give extreme examples, imagine the look you'd get if your pub footballer tried to tell David Beckham how to take a free kick. Or go into ballroom dancing, and try telling Anton Du Beke how to do a foxtrot.

While I agree that length of time in a discipline isn't always a telling factor, you're also talking about people who've achieved a thing or two in modern jive.

While, on the whole, I'd agree that questioning is never a bad thing, there comes a time when you just have to say that those with experience and ability have a point. You never seem to reach that time, and carry on arguing on your own way past any reasonable stage.

Anyhow, I had enough and moved onto the fence and then away and out somewhere else to get some ice-cream on the aerials debate. I'm now doing the same on this kind of debate in this thread as well....

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 07:23 PM

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=334576&postcount=320

Anyone?

CentrAlex

25th-January-2007, 07:25 PM

Theres alot of people on here who don't go to ceroc. It is a Le Roc term i belive (at least thats where I heard it)

But still I bet the majority of them are...and quite a lot of people I know who don't go to ceroc still use ceroc terminology!!

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 07:28 PM

And you think that this is unreasonable?

To give extreme examples, imagine the look you'd get if your pub footballer tried to tell David Beckham how to take a free kick. Or go into ballroom dancing, and try telling Anton Du Beke how to do a foxtrot.

While I agree that length of time in a discipline isn't always a telling factor, you're also talking about people who've achieved a thing or two in modern jive.

While, on the whole, I'd agree that questioning is never a bad thing, there comes a time when you just have to say that those with experience and ability have a point. You never seem to reach that time, and carry on arguing on your own way past any reasonable stage.

Anyhow, I had enough and moved onto the fence and then away and out somewhere else to get some ice-cream on the aerials debate. I'm now doing the same on this kind of debate in this thread as well....

x'd posts.

No but people should be free, no matter what their level, to be able to say to David Beckham, "this is my opinion". Who's to say the Pub football player isn't better than beckham but didn't want to become pro?

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 07:29 PM

But still I bet the majority of them are...and quite a lot of people I know who don't go to ceroc still use ceroc terminology!!

Might just be a thing from down my neck of the woods (no ceroc down here :-( )

David Franklin

25th-January-2007, 08:19 PM

DF has asked me to answer this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333074&postcount=80)
I will just point out to DF that I did not quote him as such, i was relitterating, what i belived to be his stance (note in the post he refers to there is a lack of quotation marks.The quote in question (by Woodface, about me):

Just because he says that any move where a womans feet lift off the floor slightly shouldn't be done on a social floor, Throughout this thread, I have made it clear that my objection is to aerials on a busy floor. There is ample evidence of this in the thread:

Yes there are times not to even do social drops or aerials,And one of those times would be on a busy floor...
No, I'm sure you mentioned aerials and busy floors somewhere...
Anyone who does an aerial on a busy floor is an egotistical half-wit.
You'll have to search hard to find anyone who actually knows what they're doing who will advocate doing aerials on a busy social dance floor.
Basically, with aerials, you need the space to be able to put the move down before the collision occurs (with drops, there is some ability to brace and absorb the impact).

This is a lot more margin than most people realise - certainly more than you'd get on a busy floor. Note this post (which was long) had me explaining when I consider it reasonable to do aerials on a social floor. So my position is clearly that you can sometimes do so, but certainly not on a busy floor.

have you ever done an aerial or drop, no matter how big or small, on a dance floor when there are other dancers on the floor (even if it is just one couple)?What has that to do with doing aerials when the floor is "busy"? Again, note the distinction about aerials on a busy social floor.

And then the post where I questioned his quote of me:

What you have said is that any aerial is dangerous on a social floor but now freely admit you have done them?
No, what I have consistently said they are dangerous on a busy social floor. How busy is too busy? For a start, if you have to ask, then it's too busy.

Just because he says that any move where a womans feet lift off the floor slightly shouldn't be done on a social floor
For the record, where exactly did I say this?I'm not sure how I could either have made my position any clearer, or how I could have made it more obvious what I felt was inaccurate about Woodface's charactarization.

At 7:31pm on Monday, I asked the question a second time (link (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333074&postcount=80)).

At 7:35pm I received a PM from Woodface saying that he had "better things to do than waste time arguing with someone like yourself".

I have now asked Woodface the question 4 times in total, and it has taken another 240 posts for him to finally provide the response above. The moderation team might have something to say about why he did eventually respond.

But according to some, it is Woodface who is being misrepresented. :rolleyes:

I appreciate some, including the moderators, may be unhappy about my disclosing the partial contents of a PM. They are not as unhappy as I am that it has come to this.

Double Trouble

25th-January-2007, 08:27 PM

imagine the look you'd get if your pub footballer tried to tell David Beckham how to take a free kick.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Tramp....are you comparing yourself....or anyone else on this forum as the dancing equal of David Beckham? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You are funnier than I gave you credit for.

MartinHarper

25th-January-2007, 08:29 PM

there are people seem to be saying... Aerials are safe.

No, nobody says that in this thread. No dancer would say that.

Something that does slightly annoy me is the fact people have called me dangerous a few times. these people don't know me nor have they danced / seen me dance. the fact that they could jump to this conclusion based on the fact I say a few mini aerials are ok in the right situation is worrying.

Compare and contrast:

Anyone who does an aerial on a busy floor is an egotistical half-wit who is more concerned with showing off than the safety and welfare of his partner and the dancers around him.

You {David} obviously don't know all that many aerials or drops.

You have jumped to conclusions about David's dancing, based on the fact that he says that aerials are not ok on a busy floor, despite not having a clue who he is. This places you in a very poor position to criticise others.

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 08:36 PM

The quote in question (by Woodface, about me):
Throughout this thread, I have made it clear that my objection is to aerials on a busy floor. There is ample evidence of this in the thread:

Note this post (which was long) had me explaining when I consider it reasonable to do aerials on a social floor. So my position is clearly that you can sometimes do so, but certainly not on a busy floor.

Again, note the distinction about aerials on a busy social floor.

And then the post where I questioned his quote of me:
I'm not sure how I could either have made my position any clearer, or how I could have made it more obvious what I felt was inaccurate about Woodface's charactarization.

At 7:31pm on Monday, I asked the question a second time (link (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333074&postcount=80)).

At 7:35pm I received a PM from Woodface saying that he had "better things to do than waste time arguing with someone like yourself".

I have now asked Woodface the question 4 times in total, and it has taken another 240 posts for him to finally provide the response above. The moderation team might have something to say about why he did eventually respond.

But according to some, it is Woodface who is being misrepresented. :rolleyes:

I appreciate some, including the moderators, may be unhappy about my disclosing the partial contents of a PM. They are not as unhappy as I am that it has come to this.

Nope it was more to do with when I got round to do it. I have another PM waiting reply asking me how to perform a certain move. That was sent a couple of days ago and still haven't got round to it. Though a mod did ask me if I would clarify, I have done.

Whilst we are disclosing PM's do you want to let the forum know the details of what I sent to you a few mins ago and your reply to it? :whistle::whistle::whistle:

Can we both agree that there are times and places to do mini aerials?

WittyBird

25th-January-2007, 08:41 PM

I am now officially bored.
Where's my cross stitch.......

Lee Bartholomew

25th-January-2007, 08:48 PM

Maybe you should have read it.

Im not going to disclose it on the thread at all, unless of course you don't mind, as i don't think thats really the done thing.

If you have not read it, I can assure you that it was more than plesant and could have easily drawn a line under this whole thing.

The fact that I got a PM from a mod only prompted me to deal with the question quicker. I don't feel like I mis-quoted you but Im not getting in to that again as, as far as I am concerned it has been dealt with.

straycat

26th-January-2007, 10:24 AM

Well - I'm not particularly keen to dive back into this, but as you've specifically asked, and as I said I would, I'll respond.

Just want to question a few things. Would be nice if Andy and Stray came off the bench and answered them too. So we are all clear, please look at this picture of a mini aerial http://www.cerocphotos.com/main.php/v/sinderella2006/20061229_0426.jpg.html

Mmmm. A clear indication that aerials help cause premature ageing.

1) DF has said that he has done aerials on a social floor http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333011&postcount=65 Why has no one (despite me raising the issue a few times) questioned this?

Because he has not said that he currently does aerials on a busy social floor, so the relevance escapes me.

2) In other posts Andy has refered to Amir as someone he respects and admires and his advice should be taken on board (remember the spinning thread anyone?). Why is it when Amir posts his opinions (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333743&postcount=233) (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333743&postcount=233%29), Andy dismisses them? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333744&postcount=234)

I should leave that for Andy to answer, but I didn't see his post as a dismissal.

3) Sorry Andy not singling you out. One of Andys rules is that no lifts etc should be done with ladys feet above knee height. So the mini aerial that we see in the picture is allowed and therefore in your view, safe?

Personally, I do not think the move in the picture would be safe on a busy floor, and my own preference would be not to see it on a social floor at all.

4) I have a few times in the thread made reference to mini aerials drops etc that just don't exist (marmalade, monkey lift, donkey drop etc) why did not experts that people refer to question this?

I do not have an encyclopedaeic knowledge of every single move or lift or drop in existence. It's quite possible someone has taught moves with these names (for all you know that ESG might have invented the donkey drop and started teaching it)
So - why did no-one pick up on this? A few possibilities...
1) No-one noticed
2) No one cared
3) People didn't recognise the names, but didn't think that mattered
4) People noticed, but thought it irrelevant to the discussion
5) People noticed, got the joke, moved on.
6) ... actually - there's any number of possibilities. Pick one

5) why are social drops and aerials called social drops and aerials if they are not to be done on a social floor. More to the point google the workshops in them!!!

This takes us back to your original statement which kicks this thread off: "There are plenty of social drops and aerials that can be done on a busy floor and are no more of a danger to other dancers than a catapult or first move." I think you'll have a hard job finding workshops which claim to teach you aerials for a 'busy' floor. Personally, I take a more extreme view, and believe that aerials should be kept off the social floor altogether - not everyone shares that view, and I accept that.

DF has asked me to answer this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333074&postcount=80)
I will just point out to DF that I did not quote him as such, i was relitterating, what i belived to be his stance (note in the post he refers to there is a lack of quotation marks.

Quotes or no quotes, what you said was very specific. Given the other things that have been said on this front - do you now accept that this isn't his stance?

Anyway. I hope this addresses at least some of your questions. I'm off back to the bench now, and hope that Andy hasn't stolen away all the cheerleaders, or left on a bus, or something... :cool:

Lee Bartholomew

26th-January-2007, 12:05 PM

I think the cheerleaders have ditched him and he's now busy unpolishing floors in Brighton.

Thought it was pretty much established half way through this thread that everyone opinion of a busy floor is different depending on where you dance.

To me Bromley on a normal freestyle when busy is too busy, but in Hastings when it's busy, theres 10 couples on the floor.

Have said previously (damned if im reading through the thread again to find the post) that the busy part was prob a bit too blured at the start. This thread was created after moving some posts from another thread (can't remember which one) and then took on a life of it's own. I think some of what the initial posts was refering to was lost in the transition between threads.

I think we all agreed at some point that the Busy should have been replaced with "should mini aerials be done on a social floor". I think the argument for and against is a good one and I don't think there will ever be an all over agreement on the issue.

Both sides have good and valid points. I know im not alone in my thoughts. Can tell this from the posts on the forum and by scanning across any dance floor at almost any modern jive event I have attended.

Was thinking of setting up a poll but can't be bothered (at least for the time being) to set up a new thread. Im guessing it will be 50/50 one the for and against but would be interested.

I don't know if there is any magic the mods can work on this thread to put one in? :grin:

Lee Bartholomew

26th-January-2007, 12:39 PM

The Gods that are the mods have worked their magic. :clap::clap::clap::worthy::worthy::worthy:

Vote people vote in your thousands. lol

David Bailey

26th-January-2007, 12:40 PM

I don't know if there is any magic the mods can work on this thread to put one in? :grin:
Well, we could remove half of the posts... :whistle:

Anyway, I should probably be shot for perpetuating this post, but here's a comment from David Barker (http://www.mjda.org/forum/showpost.php?p=3154&postcount=1) which is pertinent (I have permission to quote him):

Aerials are dangerous. They are inherently more dangerous than being on the ground.

When you do an aerial, you are taking 100% of the responsibility for the lady's safety, and 100% of your combined responsibility to anyone else on the floor.

The single defining feature of an aerial is that the lady's feet are off the floor. This is the fundamental problem. It takes away the lady's ability to get herself out of trouble. Even if you lift her 1 inch off the floor she can't move. She has to rely on you. What she will do if she sees someone coming is unpredictable - about the only certainty is that it won't be what you expect.

She is a lot less stable without the floor as an anchor. It takes a fair amount of effort to take someone's legs from underneath them when they are standing. It takes far less effort to do the same thing when they are in the air, and the results can be catastrophic. In contact sports like rugby or American Football it is against the rules to tackle someone in the air for this very reason. She doesn't have to be hit - if you move then her feet will probably not be under her.

The other problem with being off the floor is getting back on it. I have coached enough couples to understand the following - what men naturally try to do to help is wrong 90% of the time. Even with experienced aerials couples.

In most aerials the lady's feet are not under her centre. If she comes straight down in an uncontrolled manner, then she will fall - even if she is only 6 inches from the ground. Even if she comes down on her feet, it is not much better. Most ladies wear shoes designed for looks and for spinning. They don't offer decent ankle support, or cushioning. There is also a very high chance that she will land on the mans feet and twist her ankle. She ALWAYS has to be placed on the ground, even when things are going wrong.

Most men are not used to carrying a 40+kg weight around with them. Moving while holding a weight is not only hard work, it is different to just moving yourself. It makes you move slower, and in an unpredictable manner. You can't suddenly get out of the way if someone is coming towards you, or change direction if you are moving towards them. And again what most men naturally try to do is the wrong thing.

You should both warm up before doing any lifts - even simple ones. If you don't you risk injury. Dropping a lady because your back started to hurt is no excuse.

No-one deliberately does aerials badly. It is almost always because something unexpected happened. A large part of doing aerials successfully is minimising the unexpected. You can control your skill by taking lessons and practicing. You can warm up, wear the right clothes, wear the right shoes, check the floor is ok etc. The main thing you can't control is other people.

5 metre separation is what I would consider the mimimum separation for the most basic 2 beat baby aerials. That is 5 metres from any other dancer, or the sides of the floor (plus a bit more if people usually walk down the edge of the floor.) You know then that if you have a problem and have to move yourself, and someone else is moving towards you, that there is chance to avoid a collision. You also know that if you see someone coming towards you that you can finish the move before they put you off.

You don't have eyes in the back of your head. You only know there is enough room behind you from the last time you looked, not when the lady jumped. If she sees something in the middle of a lift, then it is no good to you. You need to see it. So you probably need more than 5 metres behind you.

To pick a few common venues, you couldn't do aerials at all at Kent House in Hammersmith, King Alfred Hall in Hove, the Jive Bar, or Fulham Town Hall, because you couldn't get 5 metres from the sides. Hammersmith Town Hall with 8 couples spread around on it would be too busy. Similarly with the Winter Gardens in Blackpool, and the large sports hall in Daventry.

In the example given of a hip rest (http://www.cerocphotos.com/main.php/v/sinderella2006/20061229_0426.jpg.html) then the couple on the left of the photo (lady in blue) are far too close. The next closest dancer is probably too close. The photographer is also too close. She lady is in heels, so the landing has to be extra-careful. Her feet are not under her centre. He is balanced on one foot, with a straight leg (ie he can't move). Her arm is above her shoulder, so she is hardly helping. Especially given the fingertip hold he is using. He isn't even looking at her. They are both looking at the only thing that isn't a risk - the floor. So even on a simple lift there is so much that can go wrong. You can't afford for anyone else to even get close.

If you do anything bigger than this, then you can only do it when everyone else on the floor knows it, and noone else will come onto the floor. ie a competition, a cabaret, or a team. Even a jam circle is dangerous, because there will be another couple waiting to get on almost immediately. The other way is to get to a venue as it opens and be the first couple on the floor. But as soon as another couple get there, you have to stop.

The 5 metre separation goes both ways. There are not that many couples in the UK who do aerials well. All the good aerials couples I know do not do aerials on the social dance floor. So if you see a couple doing any aerials, then chances are they are not that good. You should try to get 5 metres away from them for your own safety.

There are two types of people that do aerials. Those that have had accidents, and those that will have.

There are two types of venues. Those that ban aerials in social dancing, and those that risk a law suit.

And please don't say "Who's David Barker, and what does he know about it" :rolleyes:

Lee Bartholomew

26th-January-2007, 12:58 PM

:clap::clap::clap: David B for such in depth thoughts :worthy:

I agree and understand what you are saying but I don't think mini aerials (such as the one in the picture) should be singled out as a dangerous move that should be baned.

Take a common side to side lean. Is this move not even more risky as both couples weight is in one direction and quite often the man has the womans arms wrapped around his shoulders so she couldn't even protect herself if she fell?

Yes there are people doing moves that they really shouldn't be due to ability etc and they will learn. With regards to those that will have accidents. Yes. Do an infinate amount of aerials over an infinate amount of time and something has to give. Give an infinate amout of baskets over an infinate amount of time and someting has to give too.

Im quite fortunate in having a martial arts background and understand how to fall, how to lift and good stances. I know that does not mean that I am invincible when doing any moves but it is good to have this understanding as there is alot of similaritys.

Anyone who has done martial arts will know the 'Horse Stance' which is basicly what is used in a lap sit and many bigger aerials such as a half moon.

Maybe people have the wrong idea about modern jive.

Look at any modern jive website of any organisation. Any fliers, leaflets, promo material and you will no doubt see an aerial of some sorts being performed.

Oh and then there is this....

straycat

26th-January-2007, 01:08 PM

:clap::clap::clap: David B for such in depth thoughts :worthy:

I agree and understand what you are saying but I don't think mini aerials (such as the one in the picture) should be singled out as a dangerous move that should be baned.

obeservation from the bench
You now have me at a complete loss. You've read and understood and agreed with David's excellent analysis of why move such as the one above are inherently dangerous.

Yet you don't agree that it 'should be singled out as a dangerous move that should be banned.' (I'm assuming this can be qualified with 'on a moderately busy floor', since that was your vote on the poll)

Are you aware that these two statements directly contradict each other?

Lee Bartholomew

26th-January-2007, 01:12 PM

obeservation from the bench
You now have me at a complete loss. You've read and understood and agreed with David's excellent analysis of why move such as the one above are inherently dangerous.

Yet you don't agree that it 'should be singled out as a dangerous move that should be banned.' (I'm assuming this can be qualified with 'on a moderately busy floor', since that was your vote on the poll)

Are you aware that these two statements directly contradict each other?

In other words. Im not saying that what David B says is rubbish, Which is what i would be implying if I said I disagree. He has valid points. I am not denying that. It's the extent to which these mini aerials are dangerous and the space requirements that are in dispute.

straycat

26th-January-2007, 01:15 PM

In other words. Im not saying that what David B says is rubbish, Which is what i would be implying if I said I disagree. He has valid points. I am not denying that. It's the extent to which these mini aerials are dangerous and the space requirements that are in dispute.

So it's not rubbish, (which you'd be implying by disagreeing with him), he has valid points, but you do dispute some of his conclusions. OK. Glad we cleared that up then. :confused: :confused: :confused:

I'll be on the bench.

Tessalicious

26th-January-2007, 01:20 PM

Anyone who has done martial arts will know the 'Horse Stance' which is basicly what is used in a lap sit and many bigger aerials such as a half moon....which, in martial arts, are used for the purpose of hurting the person being lifted, or at least reducing their ability to be in control of the fight. Perfectly safe, I'm sure. :rolleyes:
In other words. Im not saying that what David B says is rubbish, Which is what i would be implying if I said I disagree. He has valid points. I am not denying that. It's the extent to which these mini aerials are dangerous and the space requirements that are in dispute.I think a major point, which you are missing, is that most women don't go dancing to be put in even as much danger as DavidB describes with the hip rest in the picture. Nor do any of the other men, who are dancing around you, wish to be in danger of themselves or their partners being hurt by someone doing an aerial nearby.

However high the risk (which I know is the sticking point), the consequences of coming down the wrong side of that risk are more painful than anyone should have to have inflicted on them at a social dance venue.

Lee Bartholomew

26th-January-2007, 01:23 PM

So it's not rubbish, (which you'd be implying by disagreeing with him), he has valid points, but you do dispute some of his conclusions. OK. Glad we cleared that up then. :confused: :confused: :confused:

I'll be on the bench.

Unbelievable :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused:

Lee Bartholomew

26th-January-2007, 01:31 PM

...which, in martial arts, are used for the purpose of hurting the person being lifted, or at least reducing their ability to be in control of the fight. Perfectly safe, I'm sure. :rolleyes:I think a major point, which you are missing, is that most women don't go dancing to be put in even as much danger as DavidB describes with the hip rest in the picture. Nor do any of the other men, who are dancing around you, wish to be in danger of themselves or their partners being hurt by someone doing an aerial nearby.

However high the risk (which I know is the sticking point), the consequences of coming down the wrong side of that risk are more painful than anyone should have to have inflicted on them at a social dance venue.

That will be why I got a funny look from the lady I kicked in the face. I got confused as to what I was doing. martial arts or dancing. Silly me :rolleyes:

Most women (a good 99% of them) I wouldn't even think about lifting off the ground.

David Bailey

26th-January-2007, 01:35 PM

It's the extent to which these mini aerials are dangerous and the space requirements that are in dispute.
Remind me again - you think it's 10ft, yes? Or do you think it's completely context-sensitive, and depends on the judgement of the leader in question?

If the former, then it's just arguing over level of safety, and I think there's room for discussion about the exact measurements.

If the latter, it's definitely a substantive difference in opinion.

And yes, aerials are flashy, that's why they're used in promo material. But that's marketing for you. Strangely enough, no-one has used old ugly gits like me just shuffling around on a dance floor as a promotional tool, I can't imagine why...

straycat

26th-January-2007, 01:36 PM

Unbelievable

Hey - don't knock the bench. It's very comfortable, and there are heaters and cushions and everything!

Lee Bartholomew

26th-January-2007, 01:40 PM

Remind me again - you think it's 10ft, yes? Or do you think it's completely context-sensitive, and depends on the judgement of the leader in question?

If the former, then it's just arguing over level of safety, and I think there's room for discussion about the exact measurements.

If the latter, it's definitely a substantive difference in opinion.

And yes, aerials are flashy, that's why they're used in promo material. But that's marketing for you. Strangely enough, no-one has used old ugly gits like me just shuffling around on a dance floor as a promotional tool, I can't imagine why...

I think it depends on the move in question.

JiveLad

26th-January-2007, 01:52 PM

Just one comment that a lady made to last night: she said at the end of the evening - "I was 6 inches away from getting a stilleto in my face" - and she was mightily aggrieved about what could have happened. She also remarked that the aerials being done by this guy were putting off the leads because they had to adjust to take care of what was happening - and this made the dances less enjoyable.

I know this probably repeats some of the previous messages - and I won't go into the degree of 'busy-ness' of the floor - but it was raised by a non-forumite as a big issue from last night.

I am considering writing to the Ceroc managers for the venue to see if the can tell people 'No Aerials' during the evening. My view is that they spoil it for everyone else.

Ghost

26th-January-2007, 03:36 PM

Take a common side to side lean. Is this move not even more risky as both couples weight is in one direction and quite often the man has the womans arms wrapped around his shoulders so she couldn't even protect herself if she fell?
Well if you feel it's unsafe, doesn't it make more sense not to do it, rather than use it to justify doing other move that are unsafe?

Anyone who has done martial arts will know the 'Horse Stance' which is basicly what is used in a lap sit and many bigger aerials such as a half moon.

Horse stance is good from forces applied to the side. I can push you over with one hand if I apply the force straight into your chest or back (See Judo, aikido, tai chi, about "stance integrity"). So while I accept you have a bigger margin of safety from someone charging directly from your left (assuming the lady is on your right), if they come from behind, you've got problems. There's also the small matter of the lady. If I've got the right move, she's perched on your knee with her legs crossed and feet off the ground? So when then lady next to her styles out her first move by gracefully sweeping her arm around, smacks her in the face and knocks her over backwards, you can get into all the fun injuries I mentioned earlier.

Or you can skip the aerial part and invite her to give the appearance of sitting on your knee (basically a cat stance), she's on the floor, fully in balance. I don't see the point in upping the potential risk so much for such a small benefit of her feet leaving the ground (I'm having trouble seeing it as a benefit actually)

Rachel

26th-January-2007, 04:09 PM

... Something that does slightly annoy me is the fact people have called me dangerous a few times. these people don't know me nor have they danced / seen me dance. the fact that they could jump to this conclusion based on the fact I say a few mini aerials are ok in the right situation is worrying.

Also the fact that I have not been dancing x amount of years means that my thoughts and opinions seem to be worthless to those that have been dancing longer.Hm, don't forget, though, that many have seen the video you posted of your dancing after you'd been telling us how well you could spin. I.e. if you so determindly tell us you can do something and then immediately disprove it, people will learn be wary of what you say.
Rachel

Princess Fi

26th-January-2007, 04:15 PM

So when then lady next to her styles out her first move by gracefully sweeping her arm around, smacks her in the face and knocks her over backwards, you can get into all the fun injuries I mentioned earlier.

:yeah: :worthy:

Or you can skip the aerial part and invite her to give the appearance of sitting on your knee (basically a cat stance), she's on the floor, fully in balance.

There's someone in my local venue who does this move a lot - unfortuantely I have no idea what it is supposed to look like so whenever I am 'led' into it, just stand there like a muppet before awkwardly turning and sitting on the poor blokes' knee

Can someone please show me how this move is supposed to flow nicely? (side note for the future)

Oh and then there is this.... [Ceroc Logo]

Hey it looks like the dance floor for those guys looks empty enough for a safe aerial :whistle:

Caro

26th-January-2007, 04:53 PM

Seeing the last page I now have the firm belief that the case is hopeless...

WF, welcome on my ignore list. :clap:

Ghost

26th-January-2007, 05:37 PM

Ok so I was interested in the point - are we all exagerating the injuries caused by aerials. Did a quick Google. Found this. Highlighting for emphasis is my own as it's long and I know a lot of you won't read it all otherwise :na:

It's from here (http://www.westword.com/Issues/1999-02-25/news/feature.html)

It's swing night at a Denver dance club. Sweating couples are whirling around a crowded dance floor. Decked out in glorious fashions from days gone by, the revelers juke and jive through a dizzying array of footwork as a combo blazes through a set of vintage jazz. The frenetic gathering parts briefly and a sharply dressed man turns his partner out before him, quickly reels her in, then sends her airborne over his shoulder. Her deft two-point landing falls square on the beat and draws polite cheers from the beaming onlookers.

A few measures later, another handsome couple launches into a similar move. But instead of returning to the loving arms of her suspendered partner, the young woman sails out of his reach and into the smoke-filled air. An instant later she crashes down on top of a nearby table, shattering martini glasses and the public's perception of D-Town's latest craze.

Swing's popularity in Denver has risen faster than its high-flying devotees.

The swing music now filling area clubs is a nostalgic revival of America's days of touch dancing and its attendant social graces and polite company. But as the lindy hop (named for Charles Lindbergh's transatlantic "hop" of 1927) and its kinetic kin draw more practitioners to such establishments, hand-in-hand dancing is starting to resemble hand-to-hand combat. The craze is producing a surprising number of injuries--from concussions and broken bones to dislocated joints and countless bruises.

"I think we've all been hurt," says Jennifer Pringle, a Denver dancer and part-time instructor. "There've been times that I've been dropped and ended up with bloody fingers and things like that, and getting kicked in the ankles happens a lot." Victor Ward, another dance instructor, agrees. "A lot of my regular partners used to wear these little flat heels with little teeny buckles," he reveals. "Now they wear steel-toed boots."

Kindy Bustos, a frequent visitor to Denver's swing shacks, sports bruises as often as she does fishnet stockings. She remembers one particularly painful aerial move: "I was supposed to end up facing my partner, but I went up past his head level and all the way back down to the floor. I had a mild concussion and some nerve damage. People who do aerials," she says, "always get hurt."

In 1996, a Redmond, Oregon, woman died from injuries suffered in a failed aerial. While that hasn't happened in Colorado, local twirlers say the number of collisions caused by these moves is rising. And many swing devotees say aerials have severely injured the aesthetics of the swing scene here. Newcomers, they say, are taking up these moves to get the same adrenaline thrills once reserved for slamming, skiing and snowboarding--at the expense of the dance's more congenial merits.

"The whole GAP commercial is people doing these fancy moves, these big aerials," says Pringle, before hitting the floor at the Church, a downtown club that hosts a mid-week swing session. "And people see it and think, 'If we want to be good, we have to be doing these aerials.' But some of them never learn the basic footwork of how to use those moves and where to use them. I mean, it's pretty rare that the music says, 'Throw the girl in the air!' And it's very dangerous. It's like cheerleading, but cheerleaders have all of these safety precautions and spotters and all that. But there's nobody spotting people doing aerials, so if you drop a girl, too bad. Hope she doesn't bleed."

Ghost

26th-January-2007, 05:55 PM

Something that does slightly annoy me is the fact people have called me dangerous a few times. these people don't know me nor have they danced / seen me dance. the fact that they could jump to this conclusion based on the fact I say a few mini aerials are ok in the right situation is worrying.

If someone genuienly believes that dancing mini-aerials is dangerous, then it's perfectly reasonably for them to say that they feel someone who dances mini-aerials is dangerous. It's also reasonable for them to say that someone who endorses dancing mini-aerials is dangerous.

cf I feel that juggling chainsaws is dangerous. I believe Mad Chad is dangerous* (see the YouTube clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KggYkRfNJjI)). I believe the people who applauded him juggling chainsaws are dangerous because they encourage him to continue.

Fair 'nuff?

*Or possibly very clever if they're trick chainsaws :respect:

straycat

26th-January-2007, 06:08 PM

*Or possibly very clever if they're trick chainsaws :respect:

Off topic, but a fun story:
I saw an interview once with well-known juggler named Dick Franco, who used to juggle chainsaws as part of his act. He described how he was warming up just prior to performing on Paul Daniels... and dropped a chainsaw. Normally, this wouldn't have been a problem, but on this occasion, it landed oddly, spun around, and carved the heel off his shoe.

Needless to say, he was a little shaken up, and dropped that part of his routine. For quite a while. Until he realised that it was affecting his income, so he took up the chainsaws again. Far as I know, he's still performing with them - scary....

Freya

26th-January-2007, 06:18 PM

Needless to say, he was a little shaken up, and dropped that part of his routine. For quite a while. Until he realised that it was affecting his income, so he took up the chainsaws again. Far as I know, he's still performing with them - scary....

Ok to bring this back to topic! He was only endagering himself during his performance! He wasn't doing it in the middle of the audience! I don't really care about the people doing ariels I care about what happens to me when they Muck up and I'm dancing next to them!

Oh and is anyone else getting dizzy going round and round in circles????

Ghost

26th-January-2007, 06:44 PM

Ok to bring this back to topic! He was only endagering himself during his performance! He wasn't doing it in the middle of the audience! I don't really care about the people doing ariels I care about what happens to me when they Muck up and I'm dancing next to them!

Sorry hun, but if you drop a spinning chainsaw, particularly onto pavement, the thing's gonna bounce, quite possibly into the audience. There's also the distinct possibility of shrapnel hitting them. :flower: Danger to themselves and others.

straycat

26th-January-2007, 10:52 PM

Sorry hun, but if you drop a spinning chainsaw, particularly onto pavement, the thing's gonna bounce, quite possibly into the audience. There's also the distinct possibility of shrapnel hitting them. :flower: Danger to themselves and others.

:yeah:
Not to mention the possibility of dousing a bunch of them with blood and severed body parts (eg fingers), which could be quite traumatic, and do some serious psychological damage. Would you really want that on your conscience?

Ghost

26th-January-2007, 11:24 PM

Given that the thread's so long, for those wondering why I'm referring to juggling chainsaws, Woodface was asking about people referring to him as dangerous.

If someone says "it's perfectly safe to juggle with beanbags or chainsaws", I don't think you can defend the statement by saying "you know, I don't really see anything wrong with juggling beanbags".

For those of you who just don't care at this point, enjoy the popcorn

Lee Bartholomew

26th-January-2007, 11:29 PM

Given that the thread's so long, for those wondering why I'm referring to juggling chainsaws, Woodface was asking about people referring to him as dangerous.

For those of you who just don't care at this point, enjoy the popcorn

Yep I juggle chainsaws on the dance floor whilst doing multiple spins and throwing women at other dancers.

Only if it's too busy of course :rolleyes:

Ghost

26th-January-2007, 11:37 PM

Yep I juggle chainsaws on the dance floor whilst doing multiple spins and throwing women at other dancers.

Only if it's too busy of course :rolleyes:

Which venues do you go to again? :wink:

Seriously though (or at least as close as we're gonna get to it).

Is everyone pretty much in agreement that

a) At the very least you want a 5m boundary to do 2 beat mini aerials. Anything else isn't suitable for a social dance floor
b) No matter how careful you are, aerials are inherently unsafe. All you can hope to do is minimise the risks
c) The more experienced UK aerialists consider them generally a bad idea for social dancing in the UK.

Unless anyone else has any other useful advice to add, I'll be snuggling with the cute cheerleaders. :awe:

Andy McGregor

27th-January-2007, 12:53 PM

Which venues do you go to again? :wink:

Seriously though (or at least as close as we're gonna get to it).

Is everyone pretty much in agreement that

a) At the very least you want a 5m boundary to do 2 beat mini aerials. Anything else isn't suitable for a social dance floor
b) No matter how careful you are, aerials are inherently unsafe. All you can hope to do is minimise the risks
c) The more experienced UK aerialists consider them generally a bad idea for social dancing in the UK.

Unless anyone else has any other useful advice to add, I'll be snuggling with the cute cheerleaders. :awe:Good summary. Now get over here on this nice comfy bench, there's work to be done. The reserve cheerleaders need to be kept warm and happy :grin:

Amir

27th-January-2007, 01:57 PM

This baby aeriel I would not do socially without the 5m rule

www.jango.co.uk/perhapslift.avi

This baby aeriel I have done - depending on the floor craft of those around me, which is more of a consideration for me than how crowded it is.

www.jango.co.uk/perhapslift2.avi

because I think its actually alot safer than this, which isn't a baby aeriel but is more dangerous than a lot of them! (But I would still lead this sometimes on very quiet floors, or in the corners where no-one could get in the way.

www.jango.co.uk/linearboleo.avi

All the above I would only do with a partner I know is comfortable with them, at venues that don't have rules against them, and still then not very often.

WittyBird

27th-January-2007, 02:13 PM

All the above I would only do with a partner I know is comfortable with them, at venues that don't have rules against them, and still then not very often.

I can see why... :rofl: Blink and you miss them :rofl:
Very funny Amir :respect:

I am presuming that you did those links deliberately :na: :na:

Mezzosoprano

28th-January-2007, 12:41 AM

Astro

28th-January-2007, 01:54 PM

It's about feeling safe - I personally like being lead into (musically appropriate :na: ) dips and drops as long as I feel safe (with the partner, the floor, the drop and with myself). If I don't, I will sabotage. If I'm not allowed to sabotage because my partner thinks his showing off is more important than my feeling secure, I'll sulk for the rest of the dance and that partner won't ask me again. Ditto aerials, except I don't like being lead into them anyway.

... :rolleyes:I think a major point, which you are missing, is that most women don't go dancing to be put in even as much danger as DavidB describes with the hip rest in the picture. Nor do any of the other men, who are dancing around you, wish to be in danger of themselves or their partners being hurt by someone doing an aerial nearby.

However high the risk (which I know is the sticking point), the consequences of coming down the wrong side of that risk are more painful than anyone should have to have inflicted on them at a social dance venue.

:respect: :respect: :respect:

MartinHarper

28th-January-2007, 04:02 PM

I'd vote for "Yes, if there's a 5 metre radius free", and also "No, if it's more than moderately busy", but don't really agree with any of the poll options as it stands. Odd how wording matters.

MartinHarper

28th-January-2007, 04:44 PM

I think a major point, which you are missing, is that most women don't go dancing to be put in even as much danger as DavidB describes with the hip rest in the picture...

A fair proportion of mini-aerials have a relatively invitational lead, in which 90% of the height is generated by the follower. So some of these moves, at least, are going to be consensual by default. Plus at least some leaders ask for explicit permission prior to mini-aerials (and drops). Certainly the woman in the hip rest picture is smiling, though I guess that could be a grimace of fear. She doesn't look like she's jumping against her will.
I think your comment (shared by others) about endangering others on the dance floor is the more important issue.

a) At the very least you want a 5m boundary to do 2 beat mini aerials. Anything else isn't suitable for a social dance floor.

1m/s is walking speed, so I'd go for ~2m safety margin for every second spent ungrounded. For drops, ~2m safety margin for every second spent with head below hips.
5m clear radius for two beats seems overcautious to me. 10m/s is world record sprinting speed - people just don't move that fast on a dance floor.

Join us at the luxury bench-resort.

Well, if I wanted virtual roleplay, I'd post on the singletons sofa.
Plus, the bench seems to be the place of residence for wiser heads, and I'm still in the "young and foolish" category.

Lee Bartholomew

28th-January-2007, 04:48 PM

the bench seems to be the place of residence for wiser heads

:what:

Andy McGregor

28th-January-2007, 06:12 PM

Well, if I wanted virtual roleplay, I'd post on the singletons sofa.
Plus, the bench seems to be the place of residence for wiser heads, and I'm still in the "young and foolish" category.We're just sitting and waiting for something new. The whole argument has become circular and repetitive. But we need to chip in every once in a while with a report from the bench so you youngsters know we're still here and that we've got our eyes on you :wink:

That's when we can see past those Lycra(tm) clad curves, pompoms, piles of logs for the fire and lines of guys wanting to join us on the bench :waycool:

Andy McGregor

29th-January-2007, 01:52 AM

Am I the only one who has notice we've come back inside? :waycool:

Baruch

29th-January-2007, 01:55 AM

Am I the only one who has notice we've come back inside? :waycool:
Only because it's raining and cold out there. I'm sure we'll be back outside again when things get a bit warmer.

Lee Bartholomew

29th-January-2007, 08:01 PM

Think this thread may have made a few new records.

Most neg rep for one thread followed by the most poss rep for one thread?
Most posts within 48 hours?
Most frightening mental images (Andy with A ladyboy cheerleader)?

Any way mods can check? lol

Lynn

29th-January-2007, 10:57 PM

Read most of the thread - dragging it back on topic... (or should that be picking it up and swinging it back on topic?)

Aerials - hmm, I'd listen to David F, Mary and Trampy etc. They're not just giving their opinion, they are speaking from experience and practiced skill. Its good to learn from one another and refusing to learn from someone with much more experience than you isn't some brave standing your ground thing. Listening and learning is a much quicker route to being someone others can one day learn from.

I've done a baby aerials workshop and enjoyed it. (It was proceeded by a 'don't do these moves on a social dance floor' warning. Such workshops can still be useful in learning about balance and trust.) I've occasionally been shown a few aerials by experienced dancers - but I stress - when there was no-one else dancing nearby. And by nearby I mean within about 20 feet. And not at a freestyle.

I don't mind drops if the lead is someone I can trust as long as there is space and - this is key for me - as a follower I have the option to abort the drop right to the last minute and am allowed to take as much of my own weight as the drop allows. I don't like being forced into drops or pulled off balance.

MartinHarper

30th-January-2007, 12:29 AM

And who said we wanted it back on topic?

Me.

Is there any way a moderator can move the cheerleader chit-chat onto a seperate thread?

Franck

30th-January-2007, 01:02 AM

Me.

Is there any way a moderator can move the cheerleader chit-chat onto a seperate thread?Now done! All the Cheerleaders banter can now be found on the: 'Cheerleaders on a bench (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11354)' thread

Whitebeard

30th-January-2007, 01:14 AM

Me.

Is there any way a moderator can move the cheerleader chit-chat onto a seperate thread?

Oh dear, I'm well torn. And resolutely refuse to get remotely serious.

One way, cheerladies in, or without, sexy leotards, requiring lubrication natural or otherwise: the other way, a thread which has run its course of dischord and disharmonny.

Irrespective of whether those words mean anything at all, I's just gonna keep chooglin' away an' watchin' those purty birdies bobbin' their bits.

OK, noted. Where will this end up.

straycat

30th-January-2007, 09:55 AM

Now done! All the Cheerleaders banter can now be found on the: 'Cheerleaders on a bench (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11354)' thread

Thanks Franck! All that silly chatter about aerials was getting distracting.

Andy McGregor

30th-January-2007, 10:38 AM

Thanks Franck! All that silly chatter about aerials was getting distracting.There was chatter about aerials? :confused:

Seriously though (yes, really), this debate about aerials, drops, etc on a social dance floor is a clear indication of people's attitudes to risk.

There seems to be very little disagreement about the level of risk created by these moves. Everyone seems to agree that the risk of injury is high on a crowded dance floor and is fairly low on a nearly empty dance floor. The disagreement seems to come when we consider taking that agreed risk.

My own opinion is that, even though the risk of injury is low, it is an additional risk that need not be taken. You can enjoy your dancing without taking that risk.

I think that changes in attitude to risk are about maturity. When I was much younger I rode motorbikes and occasionally fell off them. I felt that this was a risk worth taking - if I thought about it at all. In my late 30's I returned to biking and wouldn't do anything that exposed me to the risk of a fall. I'd even park my bike carefully in case it fell on me! I didn't go out on the bike in the wet because it's very easy to fall off when the road is wet. I didn't go out in the dark much, either. And, when my last bike was stolen, about 5 years ago, I didn't replace it - I was actually quite relieved it had gone!

Does this careful attitude to risk make me boring or a scaredy-cat? Or does it mark me out as a grown-up?

Lee Bartholomew

30th-January-2007, 11:18 AM

Does this careful attitude to risk make me boring or a scaredy-cat? Or does it mark me out as a grown-up?

Scaredy cat :yum:.

Think is though, I noticed this the other night, It tends to be the older people doing these moves. Drew me in to a thought......

Some of the older dancers that attend MJ events may have come from a rock 'n Roll background where aerials etc were the norm?

I have over the last few days seen drops that were ridiculasley dangerous and really should not have been done, but not by anyone under 40 !!!!

Strange because if I had not been seeing this I would have agreed with Andy. :what:

Andy McGregor

30th-January-2007, 11:25 AM

Scaredy cat :yum:.

Think is though, I noticed this the other night, It tends to be the older people doing these moves. Drew me in to a thought......

Some of the older dancers that attend MJ events may have come from a rock 'n Roll background where aerials etc were the norm?

I have over the last few days seen drops that were ridiculasley dangerous and really should not have been done, but not by anyone under 40 !!!!

Strange because if I had not been seeing this I would have agreed with Andy. :what:As usual, woodface doesn't have a clue. People from the Rock 'n' Roll era are all over 60!

I am not responsible for the actions of everyone over 40 at every venue in the country. What happens nationally is, pretty much, the domain of Ceroc. Is woodface saying that Ceroc are negligent in allowing people to do these dangerous moves? Franck doesn't allow them in Scotland. Are they permitted at the Ceroc venues woodface visits?

StokeBloke

30th-January-2007, 11:26 AM

Does this careful attitude to risk make me boring or a scaredy-cat? Or does it mark me out as a grown-up?
The day you stop feeling alive you may as well not be Andy. So long as you are having fun is it really that important if someone else wants to to feel alive by riding a bike like they stole it, or do a 1st move jump on a half empty dance floor, or suspend themself in a glass box over the Thames for days on end without food?

So long as they don't come running to you when they have a broken leg. Live and let live, embrace difference and eat lots of cheesecake :nice:

Lee Bartholomew

30th-January-2007, 11:33 AM

As usual, woodface doesn't have a clue. People from the Rock 'n' Roll era are all over 60!

I am not responsible for the actions of everyone over 40 at every venue in the country. What happens nationally is, pretty much, the domain of Ceroc. Is woodface saying that Ceroc are negligent in allowing people to do these dangerous moves? Franck doesn't allow them in Scotland. Are they permitted at the Ceroc venues woodface visits?

They might have well have been over 60, just said they weren't under 40.

Ah asumtions Andy. And It wasn't at a ceroc event. Was a Leroc one. :nice:

As far as I know there is no rules in place for them. I don't recall Franck saying he doesn't allow them but I can't be bothered to read back through the thread again so might be wrong.

timbp

30th-January-2007, 11:38 AM

What is the point of an aerial on the social dance floor?

In a performance or competition situation, the couple is trying to impress the audience or judges.
On the social floor, either the couple is trying to impress the rest of the room, or the guy is trying to impress the rest of the room. In either case, the rest of the room is social dancing and not watching (except to avoid people doing aerials).

I have never had a situation where my partner has said, "That was a good dance, but you should have done an aerial to hit that break."

Whenever my partners tell me I've missed musical highlights, they've always asked for dips or drops or dramatic floorwork; they have never asked for aerials. (Perhaps this reflects their impression of my ability?)

So, girls, why should I learn and lead aerials on the social dance floor?
You are the ones who are most likely to get hurt if it goes wrong.

TheTramp

30th-January-2007, 12:14 PM

In a performance or competition situation, the couple is trying to impress the audience or judges.
On the social floor, either the couple is trying to impress the rest of the room, or the guy is trying to impress the rest of the room. In either case, the rest of the room is social dancing and not watching (except to avoid people doing aerials).

It might just be that the people involved enjoy doing aerials???

It really gets on my nerves, this, "Oh, the way you dance, you must be showing off", thing (talking about people in general, not talking about specific cases) :angry:

Maybe the people who that is said about, just like to dance that way. After all, someone doing a pretzel (sorry CeeCee) looks impressive to someone who can only do a first move. Maybe people who do pretzels at dancing, are only doing them to show off....

(Please note, this is a separate point from whether or not you should do aerials on a busy social dance floor, I've already expressed my opinion of that)

Lee Bartholomew

30th-January-2007, 12:33 PM

{snip}

I agree with Trampy.

I quite often get called a show off when I dance but I am not dancing for the sidelines or people watching. Im dancing for me and my dance partner.

TheTramp

30th-January-2007, 12:34 PM

I agree with Trampy.

Damn. I must have been wrong! :wink:

killingtime

30th-January-2007, 01:25 PM

Scaredy cat :yum:.

Think is though, I noticed this the other night, It tends to be the older people doing these moves. Drew me in to a thought......

Some of the older dancers that attend MJ events may have come from a rock 'n Roll background where aerials etc were the norm?

Possibly because some people at that age feel they have something to prove (though the young uns might still feel the same). I'd say I've seen guys, old and young, perform moves I've considered unsafe.

There is a guy in my local venue who seems to come alone just for the party and do a vast number of drops and aerials (sort of over knee with their legs in the air and their head close to the ground, that's considered an aerial, yes?) and such (normally on the younger ladies), I just give him a wide berth though I don't like dancing next to people who are doing such things. As has been mentioned before on this thread it means you are playing more attention to that person (to make sure you can get out of the way in time) and less attention to your dance.

straycat

30th-January-2007, 01:34 PM

Does this careful attitude to risk make me boring or a scaredy-cat? Or does it mark me out as a grown-up?

I think it marks you as an experienced rider.

I don't think age has nearly as much to do with it as depth of experience. Being a grown-up helps, of course. :wink:

Lee Bartholomew

30th-January-2007, 01:36 PM

Possibly because some people at that age feel they have something to prove (though the young uns might still feel the same). I'd say I've seen guys, old and young, perform moves I've considered unsafe.

There is a guy in my local venue who seems to come alone just for the party and do a vast number of drops and aerials (sort of over knee with their legs in the air and their head close to the ground, that's considered an aerial, yes?) and such (normally on the younger ladies), I just give him a wide berth though I don't like dancing next to people who are doing such things. As has been mentioned before on this thread it means you are playing more attention to that person (to make sure you can get out of the way in time) and less attention to your dance.

Sounds like a half moon. It's a baby aerial.

What gets me the most though, is that the ladies let him do it!!.

When I dance as a follow I will block this type of move unless it is someone I know and trust and that there is the space (but then I trust them enough to make that judgment too)

TheTramp

30th-January-2007, 01:39 PM

What gets me the most though, is that the ladies let him do it!!.

If this is the guy I'm thinking that Gary is meaning, then most of the experienced ladies don't.

So, he picks on the new ones, who don't know any better. Until one of us see him doing it to them, and take them aside, and tell them...

Ghost

30th-January-2007, 02:29 PM

If this is the guy I'm thinking that Gary is meaning, then most of the experienced ladies don't.

So, he picks on the new ones, who don't know any better. Until one of us see him doing it to them, and take them aside, and tell them...
Aha!

Is this not solving the wrong problem? ie shouldn't someone either have a word with him, or have a word with The Management? Which raises the question, if he's consistently doing this and none of the staff - taxis, teachers, desk etc - are objecting, then Woodface has a point that such moves are seen as acceptable, at least in some venues.

I did suggest to the guy who lead a half moon so close that I had to push my follow back and duck, that there wasn't enough room for some moves. He disagreed. I still remember her foot gracefully flying through where my face had been a moment earlier :angry:

TheTramp

30th-January-2007, 03:05 PM

Is this not solving the wrong problem? ie shouldn't someone either have a word with him, or have a word with The Management? Which raises the question, if he's consistently doing this and none of the staff - taxis, teachers, desk etc - are objecting, then Woodface has a point that such moves are seen as acceptable, at least in some venues.

I have had a gentle word with the gentleman in question on two occasions thus far. I know that Franck has words with him at least twice too.

Some women do like dancing with him... :what:

Twirlie Bird

30th-January-2007, 03:28 PM

So, girls, why should I learn and lead aerials on the social dance floor?

Cos it excites some girlies :blush:

Putting aside the danger issue a moment. That has been debated to death! Aerials excite. They feel amazing. On a social dance floor, on an empty dance floor, on an empty training floor they feel amazing. Maybe the lead is doing it to excite the follower. It may have nothing to do with whose watching. :)

LilyB

30th-January-2007, 11:46 PM

MartinHarper

31st-January-2007, 12:08 AM

What is the point of an aerial on the social dance floor?

A mini-aerial?
It feels good. Kinesthetic pleasure.
It can suit a music moment well.
It's a good test of lead/follow.
Danced rarely, it adds contrast and variety to the dance experience.
Some mini-aerials make good intros into other movements (eg, first move jump into freeze).
It can add a feeling of performance or extravagance to a dance.

I have never had a situation where my partner has said, "That was a good dance, but you should have done an aerial to hit that break."

I've never had a partner say "you should have done a drop to hit that break".

Amir

31st-January-2007, 02:37 AM

Does this careful attitude to risk make me boring or a scaredy-cat? Or does it mark me out as a grown-up?

It marks you as a grown up. But grown ups are boring. Ask anyone under twenty! That isn't a criticism - when my scooter got stolen some years back I didn't replace it for the same reason.

Seriously though (yes, really), this debate about aerials, drops, etc on a social dance floor is a clear indication of people's attitudes to risk.

My own opinion is that, even though the risk of injury is low, it is an additional risk that need not be taken. You can enjoy your dancing without taking that risk.

As I've said, I'm too lazy in social dancing to lead lifts these days, plus they are not common so most followers can't do them, plus most venues in the UK are too crowded, plus I'm more grown up. But I have vivid memories from dancing as a follower in New Zealand. Being lifted or dropped by the guys who could do it well is exhilarating. Man it makes me so jealous to think some girls get to take this for granted. It is really special. A lot of fun.

"not so fun when you get hurt, you wait and see" say the mature people.

Well that is true. You fall, you get hurt. Then you grow up. But you don't want to grow up too fast, do you?

For a while I was teaching at an old people's home. These girls where in their 90s, one was over 100! You talk about people from rock n roll era, these people danced in the quickstep and foxtrot eras! I was basically a human zimmer frame. A couple of them loved dancing with me. All we did was shuffle a little bit on the spot, maybe for 30 secs or more. One lady would only dance for about 5 seconds and then want to sit back down she was too scared. Don't really know why I'm telling this story. Anyway, that's what the future has in store for all of us I guess. Bones too stiff to even semi circle to the right. Or is it left? Anyways, you can still enjoy tapping your fingers to the beat. After that your pace-maker does an alright job too.

What the hell is this tangent? Man, I don't know. Look, there are idiots out there that need to be sorted out! It's obvious who they are when you see them. And I totally respect Andy's venue rules banning lifts. But you can get well injured just doing normal ceroc moves - if you wait for people to be able to do it safe I'm not sure some venues would have that many dancers left.

And listen! I'm not advocating lifts in social dancing. I'm not taking any responsibility for anyone else's screw ups! But I don't think the debate is as black and white as is being presented. Hopefully I'm just presenting a perspective that has been under-represented in this thread. Seeyas later. I'm off to jump out my window now maybe if I don't look down I'll miss the ground.

Baruch

31st-January-2007, 03:06 AM

I'm off to jump out my window now maybe if I don't look down I'll miss the ground.
Ah, the Arthur Dent school of aerials :waycool:

Patrick

31st-January-2007, 03:45 AM

But I don't think the debate is as black and white as is being presented. Hopefully I'm just presenting a perspective that has been under-represented in this thread. Seeyas later. I'm off to jump out my window now maybe if I don't look down I'll miss the ground.

:clap: :clap: :clap: The 'debate' just looked black to me :wink:

Maybe there are regional and venue variations on what is considered acceptable? The fact is that some tricky drops are taught in lessons I attend, and practised/executed routinely in social dancing. So that's clearly not discouraged, and despite health and safety tips and warnings from the teachers, it is inherently risky. There are lots of people trying out drops they just learned, at the same time, and there are occasional accidents.

A few locals do lifts/airsteps routinely, I never saw any accidents. I've seen a lot of smiling faces though. I even heard ladies bemoan that they don't get enough lifts.

This is what I have observed. Opinions? I couldn't possibly comment! :flower:

David Bailey

31st-January-2007, 10:14 AM

{ stuff }
You ever thought of doing standup? 'Coz I can see you as the new Eddie Izzard... :rofl: :respect:

Andy McGregor

31st-January-2007, 10:33 AM

You ever thought of doing standup? 'Coz I can see you as the new Eddie Izzard... :rofl: :respect:
Dear DavidJames,

You have received an infraction at Ceroc Scotland Forum.

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=336996

Reason: Bringing thread off topic
-------
Please David, do not deliberately take threads off-topic. It takes enough time and effort from moderators to keep up with the natural drift without having deliberate attempts at sabotage!

Thanks,
-------

This infraction is worth 1 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

All the best,
Ceroc Scotland ForumJust after some consistency :whistle:

Oh, and so I stay on topic: I disagree with woodface, I agree with Amir* :devil:

*And, for the record, I also agree with DavidJames, Amir is very funny. But this is the new forum, you will stand in straight lines, you will not chat on non-chat threads or make asides that you feel are entertaining. You will post on topic.

We have ways of making you post on topic...
We have ways of making you post on topic...
We have ways of making you post on topic...
We have ways of making you post on topic...

Astro

31st-January-2007, 01:48 PM

Ah, the Arthur Dent school of aerials :waycool:

I have never learnt an ariel, but some guys just do them. COLIN HELP!

Ghost

31st-January-2007, 04:38 PM

Man it makes me so jealous to think some girls get to take this for granted. It is really special. A lot of fun.
So create a lift for the follows to do on the guys in Jango :devil: (Some kind of hijack / sabotage thing maybe)

"not so fun when you get hurt, you wait and see" say the mature people.

Well that is true. You fall, you get hurt. Then you grow up. But you don't want to grow up too fast, do you?
Having given quite a bit of thought to the "live fast, die young, leave a good-looking corpse" theory over the years, I always came back to the same basic problem - "what if you don't die, but just get maimed instead?" Think of all the other fun stuff you'll miss :tears: .

Seeyas later. I'm off to jump out my window now maybe if I don't look down I'll miss the ground.
A man falls off the top of Empire State Building - one floor from the bottom he's heard to remark "So far, so good" :wink:

Lee Bartholomew

31st-January-2007, 07:29 PM

Having given quite a bit of thought to the "live fast, die young, leave a good-looking corpse" theory over the years, I always came back to the same basic problem - "what if you don't die, but just get maimed instead?" Think of all the other fun stuff you'll miss :tears: .

As Bon Jovi Said "I'll Sleep when im dead"

Personally I have always believed in re-incarnation. Have done ever since I was a young frog.

I have had people moaning because they have seen me do aerials with one person and then not with them!!!

StokeBloke

31st-January-2007, 07:35 PM

As Bon Jovi Said "I'll Sleep when im dead"
Let's hope you don't break your neck doing aerials then :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Lee Bartholomew

31st-January-2007, 07:36 PM

Let's hope you don't break your neck doing aerials then :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

No chance, thats why I lead them :whistle::whistle::whistle:

Lynn

31st-January-2007, 07:38 PM

I have never learnt an ariel, but some guys just do them. COLIN HELP!This is why you should always have your towel in your dance bag. :wink:

Whitebeard

31st-January-2007, 07:38 PM

Personally I have always believed in re-incarnation. Have done ever since I was a young frog.

Then you croaked ?? !!

Baruch

31st-January-2007, 10:30 PM

So create a lift for the follows to do on the guys in Jango :devil: (Some kind of hijack / sabotage thing maybe)
If any of them are built like me, expect lawsuits from flattened ladies shortly after! :wink:

Astro

1st-February-2007, 01:30 PM

This is why you should always have your towel in your dance bag. :wink:

I will take my paisley floral pattern with reinforced seams and a few wires......

Astro

1st-February-2007, 01:35 PM

Then you croaked ?? !!

He tricked a Princess into kissing him. Urgh!

Martin

12th-February-2007, 10:13 AM

There are plenty of social drops and aerials that can be done on a busy floor and are no more of a danger to other dancers than a catapult or first move.

I did try, but by page 14 tiredness kicked in, but the theme seemed the same...

Let's start with the first post - "There are plenty of social drops and aerials that can be done on a busy floor"

This is true... but can they be done safely?

Now you are wondering why experienced dancers and teachers are questioning you? Maybe time to listen and time to stop backpeddling and justifying. The statement was made, people with lots of experience disagreed, time to take it on board and learn from the experience of others.

When we got to "busy", well I would think that most people see busy as people are dancing close by you...

So yes, of course there are plenty of moves you can do regardless of space... do whatever, but when you injure others, take responsibility and pay the price.

Lee Bartholomew

12th-February-2007, 10:57 AM

Is this thread not dead yet?

Think everything has been covered 10 times over now. :D

Martin

12th-February-2007, 11:05 AM

Is this thread not dead yet?

Think everything has been covered 10 times over now. :D

Opps was caught by the cheerleader thread, which referenced this one......

Go the lycra (tm)

Lee Bartholomew

12th-February-2007, 05:07 PM

Opps was caught by the cheerleader thread, which referenced this one......

Go the lycra (tm)

Thats alright Martin.

I won the argument anyway :devil:

Caro

14th-February-2007, 11:07 AM

midly relevant and slightly funny...

For how aerials can go wrong in particular, watch closely at 13 sec, 1.08, 1.15 and 1.28.... :whistle:

TheTramp

14th-February-2007, 11:33 AM

slightly funny...

Don't be silly. That was hilarious!! :rofl:

Gus

22nd-February-2007, 01:28 AM

straycat

22nd-February-2007, 09:55 AM

Is this thread not dead yet?

Think everything has been covered 10 times over now. :D

:yeah:
And for a quick summary, just look at the poll, which pretty much says it all :)

Anita

22nd-February-2007, 01:26 PM

So, anyone competing in the aerials comps this year?????

Martin

22nd-February-2007, 04:32 PM

Hmmmm ... well the venue I've been to tonight has apparently been teaching aerials for a few weeks .. and it showed. Never seen so many f**kwit moves on a dnacefloor in one night. I wasn't there swhen they were originally taught so can't comment on what safety advice or musical interpretation notes were given ... but its clear that if any was given it was being totaly ignored:angry: Where are the dance police when you need them??

I went to a Dance party Sat in Australia, no aerials thankfully, but a lot of "social dips and drops" - although curiously none from the "advanced dancers". :whistle:

As to space, well space to do a travelling move, as long as you had your witts about you and could change direction at the last minute as another couple maybe travelled into the same space.

There was a lot of space awareness from the more advanced dancers which saved the evening and saved a few kicks in the head for those girls 'close to the ground'.

Me and sometimes my partner got within 1 inch of a girls head with our legs/feet, but managed to avoid. Once a girls head brushed my leg as I cut short my move.

It made for an entertaining evening, no accidents, rather like driving defensively, you can avoid the accident if you consider the fools around you.

The trouble comes, when 2 fools meet :what:

It did distroy somewhat the eye contact, as half the time you are looking around you.

Once I got a shoulder brush, from another guy, a gentle one as we were both moving around and both saw the poss clash - we both had a bit of a grin :D realising we were hogging space at the same time, but braked and swerved enough to avoid damage.

timbp

23rd-February-2007, 09:06 AM

half the time
You danced/drove in Sydney and only spent the half the time looking around?

You have no idea how lucky you are to be alive.

Keith

23rd-February-2007, 02:07 PM

Hi Guys,
I’m not going to bore you with lots of things concerning this thread, as I’m sure they have all been said!
However I would like to confirm a little re Gus’s quote.
No we don’t teach aerials, yes we do teach dips & drops, along with some lifts.
The reason for this is that unless they are taught, dancers will insist on trying them, often damaging an unsuspecting partner, or some other poor dancer standing too close, besides hurting themselves.
We do have words with the over exuberant and have red-carded one dancer for consistently breaking the rules.
I truly understand peoples concerns, similar to those who thought the red flag should never have been taken from in front of the motorcar! Or those who thought Roller Blades should be banned. Even Ballroom brought the American Smooth over to allow for growth and modernisation.
I know lots of people will disagree, but this is my venue and I police & teach it, along with Phil Webb, who I trust completely. There’s nowhere else for these ‘Kids’ to play, so we try to accommodate. :tears:
Just in case the insurance card is played, I have previously checked and we are covered for these moves, which I video prior, in case there is a claim.
Ihope this clears up any questions, as I don't deal with whether it is right or wrong, just whether we should take a different stance.
Keith

Gus

24th-February-2007, 11:38 AM

However I would like to confirm a little re Gus’s quote.
No we don’t teach aerials, yes we do teach dips & drops, along with some lifts.Is that splitting hairs? If both the ladies feet are off the floor the 'traditional' definition is that its an aerial.

The reason for this is that unless they are taught, dancers will insist on trying them, often damaging an unsuspecting partner, or some other poor dancer standing too close, besides hurting themselves.We do have words with the over exuberant and have red-carded one dancer for consistently breaking the rules.Well I think you need to give out more red cards. I saw several people doing 'lift' which endangered other dancers ... and had NO relevance to the music. To add insult to injury one of the Revolution crew (off duty) first put Lou into a lift then put her into a one handed lift .... hurting her so much we had to leave :mad: :mad: :(

I truly understand peoples concerns, similar to those who thought the red flag should never have been taken from in front of the motorcar! Or those who thought Roller Blades should be banned. Even Ballroom brought the American Smooth over to allow for growth and modernisation.You are entitled to your view. However not sure about the analogy. If poeple decide that knife jugling should become part of MJ would you also accomdate that?

My main point is that if I go to a venue if there is a preponderance of lifts ... I won't again. My main concern is that such lift monsters STAY at knutsford and don't start bringing their bad habits elsewhere. Some years ago we had a real problem at Ceroc Nantwich when a local Blitz instructor started teaching loopy drops and they came to our freestyles and tried them on our unsuspecting punters. It took a lot of 'education' to stop the trend.:(

Andy McGregor

24th-February-2007, 12:45 PM

Just in case the insurance card is played, I have previously checked and we are covered for these moves, which I video prior, in case there is a claim.This has really bugged me. Just because your insurance covers a particular risk is no reason to take that risk.

For example, my car insurance will pay out if I go out in icy conditions - but I still avoid taking journeys in those conditions and if I have to take a journey I go much more slowly. But I'm covered if I go as fast as I like on a trip to buy a packet of wine gums.

At my own classes I allow some lifts. I've written the rules so that those lifts put those around the dancers in no more risk than they otherwise would be. For example, tomorrow I will be teaching a seducer lift. Starts as a standard seducer but you come out of the dip bit by lifting the ladies left leg by placing your right hand behind her knee lifting and turning. The right foot stays near the floor and the ladies left knee is bent: this means nothing sticks out to collide with other dancers. Even then, I make sure the guys have asked permission to do lifts as there is the landing to consider - this is a potential risk as ladies need to find their feet from any lift, no matter how low it is.

It sounds to me like Gus is decribing a situation where I would have stopped the music and made a very directed announcement about dangerous lifts, permission, etc, etc. If people are being injured then the thing that is causing injury must be stopped - even if you are insured against that situation!

MartinHarper

24th-February-2007, 12:58 PM

The reason for this is that unless {drops} are taught, dancers will insist on trying them, often damaging an unsuspecting partner, or some other poor dancer standing too close, besides hurting themselves.

It's odd how cultures vary. I know a few places that almost never teach dips and drops, and I almost never see them there in freestyle. I had thought that was linked, but your experience suggests it's more of a co-incidence.

David Bailey

24th-February-2007, 01:21 PM

No we don’t teach aerials, yes we do teach dips & drops, along with some lifts.
I have to agree with Gus (!), aerials are lifts... :confused:

I truly understand peoples concerns, similar to those who thought the red flag should never have been taken from in front of the motorcar! Or those who thought Roller Blades should be banned. Even Ballroom brought the American Smooth over to allow for growth and modernisation.
Interesting - is it your contention that aerials and more aerials are the way that MJ will advance in general? In other words, the UK scene will move towards the way things are in the Aussie scene? (along with lots of visuals, competitions, routines and so on)

Or is that just the way you'd like to develop your local MJ scene?

SteveK

26th-February-2007, 08:32 AM

Interesting - is it your contention that aerials and more aerials are the way that MJ will advance in general? In other words, the UK scene will move towards the way things are in the Aussie scene? (along with lots of visuals, competitions, routines and so on)

Or is that just the way you'd like to develop your local MJ scene?

Or will Oz become more like the UK? :really:

It was quite busy at the LeStep class last Wed night here in Brisbane, and a pair of morons were doing mini aerials in the freestyle after the beginners class close to lots of beginners on a crowded dance floor. I didn't say anything at the time, as I wasn't sure what the venue policies were. However I did send an email to the manager/teacher afterwards, and was reassured to receive a very clear response agreeing it was totally unacceptable for this situation, and asking me to alert him if it ever happened again.

Whilst I've done plenty of advanced drops in classes, aerials have never been taught here. What's the point of learning them if it's so rarely safe to do them?

David Bailey

26th-February-2007, 09:06 AM

Whilst I've done plenty of advanced drops in classes, aerials have never been taught here. What's the point of learning them if it's so rarely safe to do them?
I would imagine the point is that they're very good for competitions - they're the ultimate crowd-pleasers.

Unfortunately, most MJ competition spectators couldn't spot a good connection if it paraded around with a 10-foot sign saying "GOOD CONNECTION HERE", so aerials play to the crowds better.

Andy McGregor

26th-February-2007, 11:08 AM

I would imagine the point is that they're very good for competitions - they're the ultimate crowd-pleasers.

Unfortunately, most MJ competition spectators couldn't spot a good connection if it paraded around with a 10-foot sign saying "GOOD CONNECTION HERE", so aerials play to the crowds better.But competitions are all about pleasing the judges. This would only be true if the crowd were the judges.

David Bailey

26th-February-2007, 11:16 AM

But competitions are all about pleasing the judges. This would only be true if the crowd were the judges.
OK, so what is the point of aerials then? :confused:

MartinHarper

26th-February-2007, 11:29 AM

Unfortunately, most MJ competition spectators couldn't spot a good connection if it paraded around with a 10-foot sign saying "GOOD CONNECTION HERE", so aerials play to the crowds better.

The point of good connection (for competitors) is that you do cool stuff with it. It's not an end in itself.

Mary

26th-February-2007, 11:44 AM

OK, so what is the point of aerials then? :confused:

Because I would say it's not just about pleasing the judges it's about entertaining the audience as well. Which is another discipline and technique to master - some find it hard (I do) and others find it comes more naturally.

And Martin Harper's comment is spot on. With good connection you can do all sorts of cool stuff.

M

Mr Cool

26th-February-2007, 08:22 PM

Astro

26th-February-2007, 08:37 PM

As a dancer well known for some simple drops & dips i have to say I have never put myself or any lady (Maybe Andy Mcgreggor):wink: in any danger
Sadly these moves are mostly poorly taught ( the centre and balance of the leader and follower have to be right before you can perform these moves with control) it makes me cringe when i see men trying out drops with nothing but brute strength:mad:
I only perform moves when its safe to do so.:innocent: :innocent:
I also think people walking across the dance floor:mad: or dancing with little awarness of other dancers are the biggest danger on a dance floor :yeah:

What do the ladies think as mostly ladies ask me to do the drops :whistle:

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :waycool: :waycool:

I like to be asked in advance if I 'do' drops. Just because I do them with some guys does not mean I will do them with everyone.

All my injuries have been from drops because:
1. the guy has puny muscles and i have to use my right leg alone to get back up.
2. the guy misplaces me because he has not learnt the move properly.
3. the guy gives no warning and I have no time to position myself or to sabatage with my left foot.

Having said that, a male friend says that he has trouble with ladies' who just throw themselves into drops. He never even does drops!