Should the ladies step on every beat?

[Andy McGregor]

Nigel Anderson and I are having a debate at the moment. We've been debating 'what is Modern Jive' for years and this is a recent addition to our thinking. I think we agree with each other. Basically, with a few exceptions, we both think the lady should step on every beat or at least step in place on every beat. This means she would have 4 weight changes for every bar.

Consider the first move, the lady needs to turn out on beat 5. Here is the sequence of events as I see them;

Beat 1 - Lady steps back right and places her weight on that foot.
Beat 2 - Lady steps back with her unweighted left foot to bring her left foot alongside her right and transfers her weight to that foot (the lady could step in place with her left foot instead of taking it back to join her right)
Beat 3 - Lady steps forward with her undweighted right foot and places that foot next to the guy's right foot and transfers her weight to it.
Beat 4 - Lady steps forward with her undweighted left foot to bring it alongside her right foot and transfers her weight to it.
Beat 5 - Lady pivots on weighted left foot as she steps back with her weight to that foot.
Beat 6 - Lady steps forward with her unweighted left foot to get in front of the guy and transfers her weight to that foot.
Beat 7 - Lady steps forward with her udweighted right foot and transfers her weight to it.
Beat 8 - Lady steps forward with her unweighted left foot as she pivots on her right foot she tranfers her weight to her left foot.

The returns-on the spot are where it changes as these take 2 beats and this is where I'm less sure of exactly what's going on and what should be going on. Nina likes to step step her turns and returns pivoting through 180 degrees on each foot. Others like to pivot on one foot for the whole 360 degrees. So my technical question are; What do people currently do, should the ladies be transferring their weight on every beat and what do they think is right?

On this matter I'm not trying to sell any particular idea, I'm asking the experts of the forum what they think.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I think different people are going to have different ideas about what Modern Jive is. Personally I think it's a mixture of styles and influences from other forms of dancing based around a rock n' roll foundation.

People dance in different styles and ways, so therefore there can not be a right or wrong way of doing things (with a few small exceptions ie, gripping etc).

My opinion is that the follow should not have to step or weight shift on every beat at all. There should be times for pauses etc. Of course it all depends on style etc.

Taking your first move as an example and another thread about a rhonda the first move could be done with a rhonda over two /three beats.

[Andy McGregor]

rhonda I've never heard of this, it's probably Welsh :whistle:

On the subject of what MJ is. Most of us can agree what it isn't and we can agree what has influenced it. Agreeing what it is - much harder.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Been listening to beach boys.

I agree that it's hard to agree what it is. I would just say it's a mixture of dance styles that is progressive and can be done to almost any music.

[Andy McGregor]

I'm asking the experts of the forum what they think.I ask for an expert opinion and who do I hear from? :tears:

[Lee Bartholomew]

Sorry Andy. Though anyones help would be expert help in your case. :yum:

[ducasi]

It's interesting that the the member "MJ in the USA" calls the dance he teaches "FreeStep".

A good term I'd suggest, as MJ has grown out of its "Jive" roots, and "Free Step" is a much better description for what defines our dance.

As such, ladies, and gentlemen, are at perfect liberty to take as many steps as they wish during each beat – subject of course to what the music and their partner are doing.

All in my humble opinion. :)

[purplehyacinth]

OK, I'll preface this remark by admitting that I'm a relative newbie, so you can all tell me that I've got it wrong.....

I would say that it depends
a) on the music and
b) on what the person with whom the lady is dancing is doing.

Generally b) takes precedence over a) IMHO, as if the leader is dancing in, say, a grounded style, then even if it is a fairly bouncy track, the follower should be trying to match what her partner is doing (ie adopting a grounded style rather than dancing in a bouncy style).

One of the hardest things I find in ceroc is where a track with a "traditional" jive beat is being played, as my feet then want to do "proper" jive footwork (due to having learnt a very small bit of jive several years ago) - which does entail stepping on every beat. However, my partner generally isn't doing "proper" jive footwork, and is NOT stepping on every beat, so I have to try to switch off the part of my brain which is conditioned to telling my feet to do the jive footwork, so that I am vaguely matching what my partner is doing.

[Lee Bartholomew]

OK, I'll preface this remark by admitting that I'm a relative newbie, so you can all tell me that I've got it wrong.....


Your opinions will never be seen as wrong by the majority of people in here. Everyones opinion is valid. There are only a select few that will tell you otherwise.

[David Franklin]

I ask for an expert opinion and who do I hear from? :tears:Is there no beginning to the man's breadth of knowledge? :whistle:

[Paulthetrainer]

Beat 1 - Lady steps back right and places her weight on that foot.
Beat 2 - Lady steps back with her unweighted left foot to bring her left foot alongside her right and transfers her weight to that foot (the lady could step in place with her left foot instead of taking it back to join her right)
Beat 3 - Lady steps forward with her undweighted right foot and places that foot next to the guy's right foot and transfers her weight to it.
Beat 4 - Lady steps forward with her undweighted left foot to bring it alongside her right foot and transfers her weight to it.
Beat 5 - Lady pivots on weighted left foot as she steps back with her weight to that foot.
Beat 6 - Lady steps forward with her unweighted left foot to get in front of the guy and transfers her weight to that foot.
Beat 7 - Lady steps forward with her udweighted right foot and transfers her weight to it.
Beat 8 - Lady steps forward with her unweighted left foot as she pivots on her right foot she tranfers her weight to her left foot.


This sounds like the commentary to the final of the 'Twister' World Championships.:D

Way to technical for me.

I know, nothing to contribute as usual :whistle:

Carry on folks....

[straycat]

Surely they don't come a lot more 'expert' than your Mr Anderson?

Personally.... I don't really mind what the lady does in terms of stepping / weight transfers etc, so long as it's not messing up her follow. It's probably easiest if a follower does a step per beat... but it'd also be a bit dull for the more advanced followers if they were to restrict themselves to that. Besides - in a nice connected dance, I'll often vary the timing quite a bit, as will a lot of the advanced leads - so a step per beat becomes something of a nonsense at that point.

As far as I'm concerned, 'standard' MJ has no footwork, and we're free to add ... whatever feels right when we're dancing - leaders and followers both.

[spindr]

Oooh goody, Andy's invented "Modern Merengue" :)

SpinDr

[SuzyQ]

I'm not entirely sure I've understood correctly, but some of the lefts and rights seem incorrect to me (I could be wrong!) ... anyway that isn't the real question.

I don't think that it is important to step on every beat ... I will sometimes pause, triple or slide as the music suggests ... but then I've always been a rebel :)

SuzyQ

[clevedonboy]

I dance regularly with two really good followers, Andy knows one of them (I'm lnot sure if it's MJ that they dance so I won't call it that) they mark every beat & I'm sure that has something to do with how good they are

[straycat]

Oooh goody, Andy's invented "Modern Merengue" :)

SpinDr

:rofl: :rofl: :worthy:

I O U rep

[Ghost]

What about during drops and aerials? :devil:

[MartinHarper]

#include obligatory random-intermediate disclaimer.

Some folks teach modern jives that have marching footwork (eg Aussie Ceroc). Some folks teach modern jives that have other footwork (eg Leroc, JazzJive). Some folks teach modern jives where footwork is deliberately never mentioned (eg UK Ceroc). So any inclusive definition of MJ has to include all these things.

That said, it seems that the most common footwork pattern amongst MJ followers is marching footwork. Should Modern Jive ever become standardised, that's what I would expect the standard to be. Marching footwork ties in with "mambo" and "walking" variations, with "outside leg back" on first moves and sways, and with the slower music played at MJ venues.

[TheTramp]

Your opinions will never be seen as wrong by the majority of people in here. Everyones opinion is valid. There are only a select few that will tell you otherwise.

So, if your opinion is that the moon is made of green cheese and puppy dogs tails, then it is valid for most people here?

Please note my signature!

[Andy McGregor]

What about during drops and aerials? :devil:MJ is a social dance. Once you start doing those moves on a busy dance floor you start getting antisocial.

[Andy McGregor]

Oooh goody, Andy's invented "Modern Merengue" :)

SpinDrFirstly, it's not my invention. Not even my variation. It's my observation. I've done Meregue at salsa classes and, apart from the requirement for hip action, it seemed to be the same as MJ. Could somebody who is good at Meregue tell me what the difference is? :confused:

[clevedonboy]

Could somebody who is good at Meregue tell me what the difference is? :confused:
I'm not claiming to be good at merengue but I have noticed that there is an educational requirement that you can count to 8

[timbp]

Nigel Anderson and I are having a debate at the moment. We've been debating 'what is Modern Jive' for years and this is a recent addition to our thinking. I think we agree with each other. Basically, with a few exceptions, we both think the lady should step on every beat or at least step in place on every beat. This means she would have 4 weight changes for every bar.

Dancing is about moving your body. So ladies should move their bodies as led, and move their feet as necessary to maintain balance and as desired to match the music.
(But if they're triple stepping on too many beats, they are not dancing ceroc/modern jive.)


On this matter I'm not trying to sell any particular idea, I'm asking the experts of the forum what they think.
Although not an expert, I wanted to give my opinion anyway. I hope that's okay.

[Andy McGregor]

#include obligatory random-intermediate disclaimer.

Some folks teach modern jives that have marching footwork (eg Aussie Ceroc). Some folks teach modern jives that have other footwork (eg Leroc, JazzJive). Some folks teach modern jives where footwork is deliberately never mentioned (eg UK Ceroc). So any inclusive definition of MJ has to include all these things.

That said, it seems that the most common footwork pattern amongst MJ followers is marching footwork. Should Modern Jive ever become standardised, that's what I would expect the standard to be. Marching footwork ties in with "mambo" and "walking" variations, with "outside leg back" on first moves and sways, and with the slower music played at MJ venues.I've danced with quite a few ladies who do, what I think of as, the LeRoc skip: I have to adjust the way I dance as they seem to keep doing three weight changes on every back-step. I'm not sure if LeRoc do actually teach this skip or if ladies adopt it because it creates a cute little kick on the back-step - while they're busy looking cute, I'm recalibrating the move I was planning! IMHO this skip is not MJ, it's some other dance, not even Meregue :wink:

On the subject of not teaching footwork at all, this is one of the things that constantly amazes me. Especially if teachers say "there's no footwork in this dance". If you move your feet to the beat you are doing footwork. This means you can be on the wrong foot. And if you've not been told which foot you should be on there is a very good chance it will be the wrong one :mad:

I think Martin's post is a fair assessment of the current situation. The bit he missed is that there are classes in the UK where they teach ladies to step on every beat. I'd like to see more classes that teach this as I do feel it is the way to go. It really lets the lady know what is expected. I'm regularly asked "what should I do with my feet?". My answer is to step, or transfer the weight, on every beat stepping back with the right foot when the guy leads you back. How would they answer that question at a Ceroc class? Maybe they would say "don't worry about it", "do what you like" or "do what you feel comfortable with" - or maybe they hope they never get asked that question :devil:

[Andy McGregor]

I'm not claiming to be good at merengue but I have noticed that there is an educational requirement that you can count to 8That's the same as MJ. It's just that nobody tells you :tears:

[Andy McGregor]

Dancing is about moving your body. So ladies should move their bodies as led, and move their feet as necessary to maintain balance and as desired to match the music.
(But if they're triple stepping on too many beats, they are not dancing ceroc/modern jive.)

Although not an expert, I wanted to give my opinion anyway. I hope that's okay.You may not be an expert but you give a good opinion.

IMHO it's up to the guy to lead the ladies footwork. You can lead the lady to step on every beat and you can lead the lady to step on every second beat. But only if she's following your lead properly.

[David Bailey]

So my technical question are; What do people currently do, should the ladies be transferring their weight on every beat and what do they think is right?
OK, my opinion is that the ladies should only ever change their weight when this is led. Every step in every dance should be led.

Half the problem with trying to lead unconventional moves for me is when the lady decides to shift weight because she's bored or thinks that she has to to mark the beat.

[David Bailey]

Oooh goody, Andy's invented "Modern Merengue" :)
:sick: Can you imagine? A version of Ceroc that's "dumbed-down"? :eek:


Firstly, it's not my invention. Not even my variation. It's my observation. I've done Meregue at salsa classes and, apart from the requirement for hip action, it seemed to be the same as MJ. Could somebody who is good at Meregue tell me what the difference is? :confused:
Step on every beat (wiggling). No turns, no fast moves, just wiggling. For ever. And ever.

Merengue's the only dance that makes Ceroc look difficult. In salsa clubs, it's the equivalent of the "last slow dance", in that it enables you to get close and personal; that's the only rationale for it I know.

And you don't need to count to 8 in Merengue, just to 2.

[Caro]

Firstly, it's not my invention. Not even my variation. It's my observation. I've done Meregue at salsa classes and, apart from the requirement for hip action, it seemed to be the same as MJ. Could somebody who is good at Meregue tell me what the difference is? :confused:

[disclaimer: I certainly am no expert so feel free not to read the following :whistle: ]

A couple of weeks ago I was at a company party and, well, as you would expect, I was craving to (partner) dance. Music was african, with very strong beats, and felt suitable for merengue.
I'm not a very experienced MJ lead (especially since I haven't lead anybody in something like 6 months), but I grabbed a girl who I knew could salsa and merengue and started dancing a mixture of merengue and MJ. She was following just fine eventhough she had never heard of MJ (she was stepping and changing weight on every beat) and I had never lead merengue. I'm saying a 'mixture' of because doing regular ceroc moves didn't feel quite right - it seemed that a closer form of dancing (as in merengue) was more suitable.
So I would say, a part from the moves that are slightly different (Merengue also seems more suitable for somehow intricated moves - multiple pretzels anybody :devil: ), the hip action (well and the music), I'd say that dancing average MJ is not that different to dancing Merengue. As merengue dancers can easily follow a (simple) MJ lead and beginner MJ leads can lead simple merengue stuff (well it does help if they have done it before as a follow of course :devil: ).

As for stepping on every beat, when I dance (as a lead) with my friends in France who can do rock'n'roll (but have never done MJ), I usually just tell them to 'walk on the beat' and it works just fine (once they've adapted and stopped doing r'n'r footwork).
As others have said, stepping on every beat for the lady is good to start with, but more advanced dancers will sometimes lead or just do something else (whether it is more or less weight changes).

[TheTramp]

OK, my opinion is that the ladies should only ever change their weight when this is led. Every step in every dance should be led.

Half the problem with trying to lead unconventional moves for me is when the lady decides to shift weight because she's bored or thinks that she has to to mark the beat.

:yeah:

[SuzyQ]

Dancing is about moving your body. So ladies should move their bodies as led, and move their feet as necessary to maintain balance and as desired to match the music..

:yeah:


(But if they're triple stepping on too many beats, they are not dancing ceroc/modern jive.)

Not sure about this though ... I dance WCS (badly) and lindy hop ... and obviously these have triples in them ... but I know that when I'm dancing Ceroc/MJ and I add the occasional triple or bit of syncopated footwork I'm still dancing Ceroc/MJ ... as there is a lot more to Lindy/WCS than just tripling!

Or perhaps I'm just dancing a different thing all together ... oo have I reinvented the wheel?!

[MartinHarper]

Could somebody who is good at Meregue tell me what the difference is?

I understand the difference is that in Merengue turns/returns can take an arbitrary (even) number of beats, whereas in Ceroc 99% of them take four beats. Thus, Merengue can be danced to faster music.


I'm regularly asked "what should I do with my feet?". ... How would they answer that question at a Ceroc class?

"Keep them under your body" is popular.

[Lou]

Some folks teach modern jives that have marching footwork (eg Aussie Ceroc). Some folks teach modern jives that have other footwork (eg Leroc, JazzJive). Some folks teach modern jives where footwork is deliberately never mentioned (eg UK Ceroc). So any inclusive definition of MJ has to include all these things.. etc....
:yeah: Martin, there are tears in my eyes. Wonderful words. :hug:

On the subject of leading...

IMHO it's up to the guy to lead the ladies footwork. You can lead the lady to step on every beat and you can lead the lady to step on every second beat. But only if she's following your lead properly.


...Every step in every dance should be led...

Half the problem with trying to lead unconventional moves for me is when the lady decides to shift weight because she's bored or thinks that she has to to mark the beat.
Guys - that's all perfectly true, nice and good - but only if the man is actually leading.

The truth is - the vast majority of men in the MJ World don't lead every step. :eek:

Before you moan about your follower's lack of ability or for doing her own thing - bear in mind how she's been taught, and the thousands of dances she's had with men less able than you - and how she's developed her coping mechanism. :wink:

[Amir]

Modern Jive's midlife crisis!
'I know I am fun, but what the hell am I?'

Every conversation of this sort involves a natural tension between what the experts prescribe (but hardly anyone does) and what most people actually do. For example, an English professor speaks differently from, say, Jade Goody. So are you asking ‘how should we speak English?’ (according to experts like the Professor) or are you asking ‘how is English spoken’ (as observed by linguists studying Big Brother.)

But I'm going to give three answers from my own observations to slightly different questions:

1) what the best dancers do
2) what I think most dancers do
3) what I think should taught


1) The Best dancers (as voted by you guys, in Jive Masters)

Most girls step on their right foot on most down beat (counts 1, 3, 5 & 7)
Most guys step on their left foot on most down beats

Some girls (like Tas) syncopate so often that I couldn’t figure out a consistent pattern.

A few guys (like Viktor and Mick) mostly step on their right foot on down beats, especially when stepping back, but change to their left during parts of first moves or baskets where the lady is next to them.

Some dancers reverse the above, (like Graham and Sarah) with the guy stepping right on the down beat and girls stepping left.

All the above where mainly stepping once per beat, adding the occasional triple step, when doing ceroc moves. Trouble is, a lot of Jive Masters was about doing lifts drops and choreographed tricks, during which it is impossible to identify a consistent footwork rhythm.

2) Most dancers

I think most dancers, by the time they are what most people would consider ‘competent’, step once per beat on most beats. When the man is leading octopuses or similar moves where the girl is walking around him, he may stop stepping all together for a couple of beats, but takes it up again when he has to move.

Some girls during the part of the move where they step away from their partner replace two single time steps with a ‘kick ball change’ which means they are stepping left foot on the down beat until the next ‘kick ball change.’

Some dancers take two steps per beat, then lean off their partner for two steps before pulling themselves forward into the next two steps. I personally don't like dancing with these people, for fear of injury, as it doesn't look very controlled.

3) What I think should be taught

I think guys weight should be on their left on the down beats, and girls on their right, and step once per beat.

This allows you to lead and follow complicated footwork, and all modern jive moves can be danced using this footwork pattern. It is the simplest to teach and learn, as it requires the least ‘exceptions to the rule.’ It is the framework of the most basic footwork move there is – the manhattan.

Obviously, once you can do this, you can syncopate away from this frame work as much as you like, holding your weight on one foot for two counts or replacing four steps with two triple steps, which will return you to the above pattern.

Why I think what I do:

This framework is easy to teach (having taught beg ceroc two years in nz) easy to do, is consistent, and allows you incorporate many moves and techniques from other dance forms like leverage, compression, footwork, assisted spins, slides etc, if you want to take modern jive to a more advanced level. Its also gives you a head start (in my opinion) if you’re going to go learn lindy, wcs, tango etc.

As proof of the simplicity of this method, if I dance with someone who knows how to follow but has never seen modern jive, all I have to say is ‘step once per beat, starting on your right’ and I can lead any modern jive move I know.

If they are American they normally say 'oh! you mean single time swing!' which is not what I mean because I don't know what it is, so I just smile to imply that I do with out committing myself either way.

[foxylady]

I don't think that it is important to step on every beat ... I will sometimes pause, triple or slide as the music suggests ... but then I've always been a rebel :)

SuzyQ

Yes me too !!! The music dictates what my feet do, the lead dictates (when I let them) where i do what my feet are doing... :wink:

(obviously within the structure of the MJ move pattern - as Amir says above "Obviously, once you can do this, you can syncopate away from this frame work as much as you like, holding your weight on one foot for two counts or replacing four steps with two triple steps, which will return you to the above pattern. ")

[MartinHarper]

If they are American they normally say 'oh! you mean single time swing!' which is not what I mean because I don't know what it is, so I just smile to imply that I do with out committing myself either way.

The only time I've heard the phrase "single time swing" is from a Lindy teacher, as follows:

Eight beat single time is: rock-step slow, step step slow.
Six beat single time is: rock-step slow, slow.
Eight beat double time is: rock-step, kick-down, step step, kick-down.
Six beat double time is: rock-step, kick-down, kick-down.
Eight beat triple time is: rock-step triple-step, step step triple-step.
Six beat triple time is: rock-step, triple-step, triple-step.

Assuming they're using the same jargon, single time swing isn't quite the same as the footwork you're talking about.

[Lory]

Yes me too !!! The music dictates what my feet do, the lead dictates (when I let them) where i do what my feet are doing... :wink:



:yeah: Lately i've been making a conscious effort to pick out the accented beats of the melody line with my footwork, trying to go slightly outside the box of dancing just to the regular beat :na:

Although, at the moment, i'm still finding I have to syncopate at lot, to get back on the correct foot for certain moves, as it's still a bit at the trial and error stage. :rolleyes:

I'd be bored to tears if I were limited to a single step/weight change on each uniform beat! :tears:

[MartinHarper]

The ideal leader leads each step...

That sounds like far too much work to be "ideal". It doesn't matter whether my partner's "default" is marching footwork, or triple steps, or standing still, provided I can lead her to change that default as appropriate.

[SuzyQ]

Amir - I think you have constructed the perfect aswer - love it!

[Gadget]

Basically, with a few exceptions, we both think the lady should step on every beat or at least step in place on every beat. This means she would have 4 weight changes for every bar.
Isn't that then WCS?

[Lou]

Don't dumb down to reach what people are doing now.

There's no need to snap at me. :tears:

I was trying to point out one reason why followers typically do something else with their footwork. Other, more experienced, ladies have given some additional reasons.

You appeared to be blaiming the ladies for your inability to do certain moves. We're pointing out that we have valid reasons for what we do. Maybe it's down to the man to adjust his Lead accordingly?

[Caro]

Isn't that then WCS?

No Gadget, in WCS for a basic 6 beats pattern the lady will do: step - step - triple step - triple step (average 1.33 step/beat - although said like that it's a little weird :what: ) and step, step, triple step, step, step, triple step for an 8 beat pattern (average 1.25 step / beat).
Patterns can be extended by any amount of 2 beats increments during which the lady will either step step or triple step.

[straycat]

You could say that about any advanced technique - your aim is the ideal. The ideal leader leads each step, the ideal follower follows each lead. Don't dumb down to reach what people are doing now.

Are you suggesting that the leader is 'ideally' dictating every single step that the follower does? If so, I strongly disagree - there are some moves which call for this, sure, (especially if I'm playing with timing) but for the most part, I find it far more fun to lead the shape of the move, and allow the follower freedom to do what footwork she will.

Yes - I'll always set moves up so that the follower's weight is in the correct place at the any key points, but I'm not sure that's entirely what you mean.

[David Bailey]

That sounds like far too much work to be "ideal". It doesn't matter whether my partner's "default" is marching footwork, or triple steps, or standing still, provided I can lead her to change that default as appropriate.
Hmmm, I had a rethink of this, and maybe I'm asking too much of a normal-time MJ dance - I think it's still completely correct for Blues dancing, but when it gets to a certain speed, it's very tricky to lead the weight change on each step, and a certain amount of autonomous weight-changing may be necessary.

In fact, that may even be true for Milonga-style AT...

[Beowulf]

:sick: Can you imagine? A version of Ceroc that's "dumbed-down"? :eek:

Where do I sign up?



[disclaimer: I certainly am no expert so feel free not to read the following :whistle: ]

OK. :wink: (actually you made some good points)

I'm a perpetual beginner and as such even less qualified to comment that any above but IMHO "does it really matter?" I step back on what ever foot and whatever beat takes my fancy at the time, If I lead a move for my partner I'm "asking or suggesting" a move for her to do but she doesn't need to accept. She MIGHT follow my lead and only step back when I tell her to, or she might want to improvise and do some footwork I didn't suggest

Perhaps i'm looking at this from too noobish a position but if ,for example, I had decided to do a pause for dramatic effect in the middle of a song, I certainly wouldn't expect my follower to be bouncing in and out and in and out until I finished.. although she'd be quite within her rights to do so.

I'm sorry to say that this all smacks me slightly as being a little cliquey and exclusive.. I envision people on the sidelines watching me dance and whispering to each other.. "Oh look.. he's a Righty not a Lefty!" , "Oh look she didn't step back there.."

I'm sure when you're dancing at a competition level then these little details become important.. but the vast majority of dancers go for fun, it doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the dance whatever foot I use, or however many steps my follow does or doesn't take. I dance vaguely in time with the music (some people who have danced with me may question that point though) and I have fun. why complicate matters?

[David Bailey]

I'm sorry to say that this all smacks me slightly as being a little cliquey and exclusive.. I envision people on the sidelines watching me dance and whispering to each other.. "Oh look.. he's a Righty not a Lefty!" , "Oh look she didn't step back there.."

? :confused:

We're in a dance forum (so I'm told).
We're talking about dance technique.
We're in the "Intermediates Corner"


What else should be discussed in this area?

[David Bailey]

There's no need to snap at me. :tears:
For me, that was just a mild remonstration :na:


You appeared to be blaiming the ladies for your inability to do certain moves.
Yeah, those darn ladies, it's all their fault. Partner dancing would be so much easier without the partners...

OK, I admit, I was probably thinking of slower-speed dancing - Blues dancing, basically in MJ - in which I still feel weight-changes should be led.


We're pointing out that we have valid reasons for what we do. Maybe it's down to the man to adjust his Lead accordingly?
OK, I'll bit. So what valid reason (in the context I've provided) is there for the follower to change weight without being led to do so?

[Beowulf]

? :confused:

We're in a dance forum (so I'm told).
We're talking about dance technique.
We're in the "Intermediates Corner"


What else should be discussed in this area?

Not to sideline the thread. I wasn't saying this wasn't a valid topic for conversation I just stated MY OPINION which may or may not be valid to everyone (obviously not in your opinion.. which is valid too) that I didn't see why worrying over footwork was that important.

Needless to say though that I am a long term beginner and my opinion carries less weight than others. It just strikes me (and again I emphasise this is a PERSONAL opinion and I'm not wanting to tell others what they should think) that we have enough to worry about without having to add on another level of complexity.

I dance for fun not for competitions but I understand why some would want to perfect these techniques. I'm not one of them though.

By all means, Please feel free to discuss which foot to step back on and/or how many sequins per square inch of dance outfit is optimal for increased performance on the dance floor if you feel it's important to getting the maximum pleasure out of your dancing. It's an open forum and I was expressing my opinion which you or anyone else on the forum has the same right to agree or disagree with. As you have done.

My point was that in my limited experience, the vast majority of dancers don't have to/want to worry about such finer points. That's All.

[Franck]

I have moved the 'Dips, Drops & Aerials part of this discussion to a new thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11235) to keep on topic.

[killingtime]

You appeared to be blaiming the ladies for your inability to do certain moves. We're pointing out that we have valid reasons for what we do. Maybe it's down to the man to adjust his Lead accordingly?

It's interesting that sometimes, when I'm leading some form of footwork move it will start out fine and then there will be a point that I can feel the woman panicking, her body tenses and she begins to try and guess what foot I probably want her on (even though everything was going fine) and from that stage I lose the ability to lead her through that move. I'd feel a bit patronizing say "just relax and it will all work out fine" so I don't. I'm not sure that's the lady's fault. If she is used to people not giving her a lead then she may have learnt some footwork pattern so she'll think "that's an Argentinian first move" and try doing that footwork even if I had something else in mind.

You know, when I started that, I'm sure there was a point to it. Maybe it was "don't try and anticipate and eventually men will just have to learn to lead" or "everyone should just relax and it will all work out in the end" but I can't remember :rolleyes:.


OK, I'll bit. So what valid reason (in the context I've provided) is there for the follower to change weight without being led to do so?

Well this is why the step on every beat confuses me a little. There is that first move, for example, that you face one and other then the man pushes on the woman's left hip to take her left leg, to mirror his, forward, then face repeat... that can be lead every 2 beats (every count) or every beat. If you did, say slow, slow, fast, fast, fast then in the slow case the woman would have her weight on the wrong foot?

[pawplay]

I'd be bored to tears if I were limited to a single step/weight change on each uniform beat! :tears:

I feel that the framework of MJ should be taught as stepping on each foot (preferably in time to the music:wink:) to make it easier to learn/understand the process. After this, i then have to refer to Amir's workshop at Southport on musicality. Feel the music, enjoy and have fun in whichever way feels right with that lead/follow? :whistle:

OK i LOVE blues which i feel is more sharing of the dance with both feeding of each other for inspiration. If this is restricted by being on the correct foot and awaiting the correct lead, the spontaneity is lessened?

PS DJ, I prefer the Bachata to merengue for a slow dance, much sexier! :wink:

[Lee Bartholomew]

Part of my post that got moved in to another thread......




With regards to the woman (or follow!!!!!) stepping on every beat. I don't think that many dancers do. With regards to the comment Good dancers step on every beat, this is cert not my experiance of dancing with "Good Dancers". Maybe i'm hanging out with the wrong crowd :sad:.

A poll Maybe?

My personal opinion......

Modern Jive at beginners level tends to be taught to move on the beat as described by Andy. Over time beginners turn in to intermediate and start to learn other styles of dancing, either by attending classes (tango, ballroom etc) or by watching other intermediates.

Intermediates then get influenced by these other styles and people and put them in to their way of dancing.

Intermediates then become "advanced" (I hate that term for dancers) and sometimes become teachers.

Teachers then start teaching beginners to move on beat. Intermediate lessons / workshops then have moves in influenced by these other styles and so the process repeats.



It's for this reason Modern Jive is a progressive style of dancing. No other style has the influences in it that modern Jive has. Modern Jive is not a dance in itself. It is a collection of dances.

My definition of Modern Jive:- A collection of dancers with different dance styles. Not a dance in itself. More of a social gathering.

[StokeBloke]

Anyway back to topic........Of course I realise that being brand new, and not having travelled to loads of venues means that my opinion isn't quite as worthy as the Alan Wicker hotshots amongst us :wink: but I thought that the free part in freestyle denoted the fact that you could do whatever you wanted. If that is the case, then questions like this one are a little redundant, are they not? :flower:

On the subject of footwork, I have been taught the occasional 'suggested' footwork, even though we are constantly told there isn't any official footwork in Ceroc. I find that following these suggestions invariably makes the moves easier. I suppose telling people there is no official footwork is a plus to trying to get people through the door for the first few weeks.

[robd]

I'd be bored to tears if I were limited to a single step/weight change on each uniform beat! :tears:

This is one aspect of my jive dancing that frustrates me - the fact that I step on pretty much every beat in a plodding and pedestrian kinda way. It is even more apparent when I am partnering a follower who is able to do all kinds of footwork syncopations and 'fancy stuff' to fit the music. Yes, I am ok at giving them time and space in which to do their thing but it would be nice to do something to complement their styling from time to time.

Robert

[killingtime]

Needless to say though that I am a long term beginner and my opinion carries less weight than others. It just strikes me (and again I emphasise this is a PERSONAL opinion and I'm not wanting to tell others what they should think) that we have enough to worry about without having to add on another level of complexity.

You are so wrong about your opinion carrying less weight. I look for a lot of things from my dancing now that I didn't look for when I started. I'd love to be taught more footwork moves at Ceroc etc. but when I started, or when I moved to intermediate, those moves were things that filled me with dread.

It took me weeks in WCS to learn basic footwork patterns and to actually have a dance where I wasn't counting out my beat patterns. That was ok though, I enjoyed Ceroc and it was a dance I continued to do and WCS was more of a long term payoff. However if I went to Ceroc and they taught some footwork I had trouble with when I started I might have thought "you know I'm not really suited to this dancing lark" and stopped attending.

If some footwork that makes it easier to learn to be a better dancing without over complicating things for people who have just started then I'm all for it. If it's something that a new beginner has to worry about on top of getting the moves right, trying to stay in time and all the other things that you have to worry about at week 1. Maybe the price is too high if an improvement of "mid-level" dancers comes at the expense of the accessibility of the dance to "beginners".

[David Bailey]

Not to sideline the thread. I wasn't saying this wasn't a valid topic for conversation I just stated MY OPINION which may or may not be valid to everyone (obviously not in your opinion.. which is valid too) that I didn't see why worrying over footwork was that important.
Don't get me wrong - I agree that there's too much fussing over left / right feet, etc., in MJ.

Personally, I don't care - and if I do, I'll ensure the lady steps back and forward on the foot I lead her to do. On the other hand, I do care if she suddenly decides to change weight after a sidestep, for example, as then I may not be able to lead her into a move I had set up.

So to me, the general topic is more about weight-changes than anything else, and I think that is a legitimate discussion...


It just strikes me (and again I emphasise this is a PERSONAL opinion and I'm not wanting to tell others what they should think) that we have enough to worry about without having to add on another level of complexity.

I dance for fun not for competitions but I understand why some would want to perfect these techniques. I'm not one of them though.
I have absolutely no problem with that :flower:

(Although not all of us are competition fans, you know.)

But if you don't want to discuss dance technique, I'd just mark this subforum to be ignored. And I'd definitely steer clear of the MJDA forum :wink:

[David Bailey]

You know, when I started that, I'm sure there was a point to it.
:rofl: I suspect that'll be my epitaph :)


PS DJ, I prefer the Bachata to merengue for a slow dance, much sexier! :wink:
:rolleyes:
I have... views... on Bachata, see here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164508) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=176309) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=280254)...

[StokeBloke]

I have moved the 'Dips, Drops & Aerials part of this discussion to a new thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11235) to keep on topic.
I think my reply got lost in the process. The general gist of which, was isn't the free part of the term freestyle used to denote the fact that anything goes? If so, this question is largely irrelevant is it not?

[killingtime]

I think my reply got lost in the process. The general gist of which, was isn't the free part of the term freestyle used to denote the fact that anything goes? If so, this question is largely irrelevant is it not?

Well it is more about the teaching practices used. We have WCS freestyles but people would expect that you'd stick to a WCS beat pattern (even if you are replacing your triple steps with something else). People are free to do what they want in freestyle but generally their are expectations on what a lead and follow of a dance will do.

[pawplay]

:rofl: I suspect that'll be my epitaph :)


:rolleyes:
I have... views... on Bachata, see here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164508) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=176309) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=280254)...


Mmm.....ever danced Bachata with me? :na:

yes i do salsa as well, just so you can get all the jibes in all at once!:blush:

Trampy you got and Bachata music you could bring???:respect:

[ducasi]

I think my reply got lost in the process. The general gist of which, was isn't the free part of the term freestyle used to denote the fact that anything goes? If so, this question is largely irrelevant is it not?
I've moved your post back to this thread (thanks to David F for spotting it).

The "free" in freestyle does pretty much mean anything goes (except for things which can cause injury and upset to fellow dancers.)

But if you come to a MJ event and do Cha-Cha, just because you're at a MJ freestyle it doesn't mean you're dancing MJ.

[Andy McGregor]

:yeah: Lately i've been making a conscious effort to pick out the accented beats of the melody line with my footwork, trying to go slightly outside the box of dancing just to the regular beat :na:

Although, at the moment, i'm still finding I have to syncopate at lot, to get back on the correct foot for certain moves, as it's still a bit at the trial and error stage. :rolleyes:

I'd be bored to tears if I were limited to a single step/weight change on each uniform beat! :tears:I'd noticed Lory's dancing has changed of late. She has moved from being a nice dancer who is great fun to being a great dancer who is a joy to lead. The fun has changed from the kind that makes you laugh and is of a much more substantial and satifying nature - total bliss :worthy:

[Andy McGregor]

My definition of Modern Jive:- A collection of dancers with different dance styles. Not a dance in itself. More of a social gathering.My definition of Modern Jive:

Not what he said :whistle:

I think that woodface has completely missed the point. Each partner dance is a particular dance. If you're doing a cha cha cha at a Modern Jive class you are still doing a cha cha cha. However, you could do MJ in a Latin style borrowing moves from Latin dances. But it would still be MJ timing, therefore it's still MJ.

[Andy McGregor]

This is one aspect of my jive dancing that frustrates me - the fact that I step on pretty much every beat in a plodding and pedestrian kinda way. It is even more apparent when I am partnering a follower who is able to do all kinds of footwork syncopations and 'fancy stuff' to fit the music. Yes, I am ok at giving them time and space in which to do their thing but it would be nice to do something to complement their styling from time to time.

RobertYou will notice that I said the follower steps on every beat. This is not required for the leader. So long as the lead knows what the follow is going to do he/she can choose footwork to suit. Take, for example, the bit of the sway where you both step back right (leaders, please don't tell me your still stepping back left), the lead can leave the right foot where it is as the follow steps forward with the right.

[ducasi]

I'd noticed Lory's dancing has changed of late. She has moved from being a nice dancer who is great fun to being a great dancer who is a joy to lead. The fun has changed from the kind that makes you laugh and is of a much more substantial and satifying nature - total bliss :worthy:
So what you're saying is that the mark (or one mark of?) a great follower is that she (or he) steps out of the box, varies her footwork, throws in syncopations and doesn't just step to the beat?

Presumably as she is no-longer simply stepping once per beat, she has become a great follower in a dance other than Modern Jive?

EDIT: Hope to get a dance with Lory soon – it's been ages and ages!!! :tears:

[Dave Hancock]

IMHO it's up to the guy to lead the ladies footwork. You can lead the lady to step on every beat and you can lead the lady to step on every second beat. But only if she's following your lead properly.

Interesting thread and I think I get the jist of most what you are trying to get across Andy, but not sure if I agree with the above, you'd have to be a hell dancer to be able to lead the ladies footwork as it's really her choice and you can only offer subtle suggestions. I'd personally hate to be responsible for the ladies footwork as then it'd be me dictating the dance to her and also I'd be totally responsible for everything that she did.

I do like the idea of the southern hemisphere though where they tend to teach basic footwork in each of the begiiner moves.

[Dave Hancock]

I'd noticed Lory's dancing has changed of late. She has moved from being a nice dancer who is great fun to being a great dancer who is a joy to lead. The fun has changed from the kind that makes you laugh and is of a much more substantial and satifying nature - total bliss :worthy:

:yeah: :yeah:
Although I've not seen Lory since last August I noticed a similar thing at the time and thought she was actively following a lot more and that she has become an even greater joy to dance to dance with.

[Andy McGregor]

So what you're saying is that the mark (or one mark of?) a great follower is that she (or he) steps out of the box, varies her footwork, throws in syncopations and doesn't just step to the beat?

Presumably as she is no-longer simply stepping once per beat, she has become a great follower in a dance other than Modern Jive?

EDIT: Hope to get a dance with Lory soon – it's been ages and ages!!! :tears:I'm not sure I said that at all :wink: But I do like dancing with a follower who hijacks and does her own thing. The trick is to give back the lead at the right place in the bar. And that is what Lory is now fab at :worthy:

[Amir]

With regards to the woman (or follow!!!!!) stepping on every beat. I don't think that many dancers do. With regards to the comment Good dancers step on every beat, this is cert not my experiance of dancing with "Good Dancers". Maybe i'm hanging out with the wrong crowd :sad:.



I don't think you are (hanging out with the wrong crowd.) From memory, in the video you posted, you were stepping once per beat when not spinning, as was your partner. You were on your left foot and she was on her right foot during the 'down beats'. This is the same as the system I would like to see taught. I think most people would consider you a good dancer.

More examples where one step per beat is clearly visible from all levels of dancers, and different countries:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOW-muJY0i8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQYKGjO_L0Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVAW1plaxys&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AFG6741NFU&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj8LyDI8Cf8
Also check out Emma and Alex’s Freestyle of beginner ceroc moves at the end of Ceroc’s teaching DVD.

All the above are stepping once per beat, when not doing drops, lifts or arm-jives. The better dancers are also using the system I described of mans left and ladies right on each down beat, including Robert & Nicky and Emma & Alex who are considered among Ceroc's best. (as judged by comps and teaching contracts etc).

But regardless of whether there are examples of people not stepping once per beat, I still think this system should be taught. It clearly works as a framework for modern jive. If you explain it to people they won't have to work it out for themselves. Then they will learn faster and enjoy it all quicker.

Some people will eventually get good enough to syncopate almost all the time, like Tas, who matches her foot work to rhythms in the music. What's important is this doesn’t interfere with her following. Wcs boasts total footwork freedom for the follower, but they start by teaching very specific footwork patterns.

To clarify: I don’t think followers should step once per beat – they should do what ever they like (within the context of the move, the music, their ability and religious beliefs.)

But I do think ‘one step per beat’ should be taught, for all the reasons I said in my first post. You can teach syncopations in advanced classes, but only when people are comfortable dancing in time with the music and competent at lead and follow. Any earlier and you just confuse them in my opinion.

(Obviously like any system there are some expections, like arm-jives which are one step (or weight change) per every second beat.)

[Ghost]

But I do think ‘one step per beat’ should be taught, for all the reasons I said in my first post.
Had a go at this tonight. Lady in the beginners class was struggling with following. Georgious Dancer let us dance through the moves while she watched and offered advice. I asked the lady to step once per beat and try and step back on her right where it felt ok to do so. Went through the routine several more times, each getting noicably smoother and smoother. Then danced it to the music being played for the intermediate class. She was able to dance it at half speed, still stepping on the beat (for reference the way everyone says Blues dancing shouldn't be done). Then I had a go at leading some intermediate moves on her, again worked smoothly. Where she didn't follow what I'd actually led, it was easy to keep going and turn it into something else. It really was an amazing transformation.

[Amir]

If some footwork that makes it easier to learn to be a better dancer without over complicating things for people who have just started then I'm all for it. If it's something that a new beginner has to worry about on top of getting the moves right, trying to stay in time ... Maybe the price is too high...

Totally agree. If I get some beginners and they are really struggling I tell them 'forget about the footwork, it doesn't really matter.' Which is a dirty lie. But if I can get them to relax long enough to keep coming back they can learn footwork later.

In the mean time, for those beginners who have been dancing longer, or who look more capable, I offer this footwork model in the form of a friendly 'suggestion' so they don't stress about getting it right or wrong. But if they get it right they improve so much faster. If they get it 'wrong' they are no worse off than if I had said nothing.

I would also add, that if you want to become ‘good’ I would recommend first mastering ‘one step per beat’ until you can do it without thinking. Then you have the foundation and freedom to improvise triples steps, slides, holds, etc in endless variations.

I see a lot of dancers who attempt syncopations before they can do what I consider this more basic footwork system. Because they haven't developed the right awareness they often have their feet muddled up, are too far away from their partners, end up arms out stretched or missing hand holds, and getting their arms yanked. It also prevents them from ever being able to lead/follow double time moves which require more precision, or footwork, which requires, em, footwork.

[Ghost]

Totally agree. If I get some beginners and they are really struggling I tell them 'forget about the footwork, it doesn't really matter.'
Do you keep dancing with them using step Ceroc as a lead, or do you then need to adapt to the way they're dancing too?

[Amir]

Do you keep dancing with them using step Ceroc as a lead, or do you then need to adapt to the way they're dancing too?

Adapt? Are you crazy? I'm way too stuck in my ways.

Seriously though, I was talking about when teaching a class, so I'm not actually dancing with them.

If I'm dancing with someone I can coach them into this system very quickly because I am leading it as well as saying it, but yeah, if they struggle I obviously just adapt and don't lead any footwork or anything fast or difficult.

[Ghost]

Adapt? Are you crazy? I'm way too stuck in my ways.
I dunno, some of these women can be quite persuasive :awe:


Seriously though, I was talking about when teaching a class, so I'm not actually dancing with them.
:wink: I was thinking of taxis in both freesyle with beginners and teaching the taxi class.

[timbp]

Should the ladies step on every beat?

No

Should the ladies be taught to step on every beat?
Probably. If they are taught what is expected and they understand why, then they can justify not doing this.

[Tessalicious]

IMHO, the biggest problem with women (and men, for that matter) who are taught to step on every beat is that they end up making huge steps where one is not necessary.

For example, on the 'twist back in' of the first move, a lot of women who think they have to 'step' on every beat rather than just 'transfer weight' will take a big step forward with their left before pivoting on it. This results in them being in a completely different place than the lead intended, which means that the lead has less control over the dance. The men start taking matching steps (note, this could be either way round, it's just uglier when it's the lady's fault!) and the dance ends up being a huge, space-invading battle to keep up with each other as you travel round the floor and crash into everyone else.

Ceroc gets around this by not teaching beginners to step at all - the rationale behind this (in my theory anyway) being that people find it much easier to transfer their weight between feet if you don't tell them that's what they should be doing (think of a beginner's rumba class - usually horrific because of all that talk of weight change and hips).

The other problem is the potterers. These are (usually) ladies who do a sort of bouncing step on every beat, whether it's being led or not - the problem with this being not the stepping but the fact that it makes them bob like an apple in a barrel. Also, once it becomes habit, spinning, or any lead which involves consistently transferred weight and connection, is pretty much impossible.

Having said all that, I'll admit that I will generally either step or transfer weight on every beat, because that is how the majority of Ceroc moves work best as a follower. But that doesn't mean that I can't stop myself from doing this when the music, or my partner, says so - which wasn't the case before I learnt this from various more experienced dancers.

[eastmanjohn]

But I do think ‘one step per beat’ should be taught, for all the reasons I said in my first post. You can teach syncopations in advanced classes, but only when people are comfortable dancing in time with the music and competent at lead and follow. Any earlier and you just confuse them in my opinion.

(Obviously like any system there are some expections, like arm-jives which are one step (or weight change) per every second beat.)

So where does this clip fit into the scheme of things? This is beginners as basic as it gets and danced in a consistent and reproducible method (lead and follow) by a recognised first class teacher.

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[tsh]

I'm not very good at working out the detail from watching, but that does not look like a good follow for a beginner to be trying to copy. The weight transfer looks decidedly strange to me...

[SeriouslyAddicted]

Is there an argument that stepping on every beat helps people who may otherwise struggle to maintain the beat?

[Gav]

So where does this clip fit into the scheme of things? This is beginners as basic as it gets and danced in a consistent and reproducible method (lead and follow) by a recognised first class teacher.

I wouldn't recommend that clip for beginners to watch. :sick: Not least of all because I got distracted wondering if his wig would fall off! :blush:

[Lory]

This is beginners as basic as it gets and danced in a consistent and reproducible method (lead and follow) by a recognised first class teacher.



Is that Nicki Haslam, winner of the Jivemasters 2003?

[Amir]

So where does this clip fit into the scheme of things? This is beginners as basic as it gets and danced in a consistent and reproducible method (lead and follow) by a recognised first class teacher.


The follower's footwork (this is Nicky Haslam) in this video is 'step-step-tap-step' with each element of this taking one beat. Or you could describe it as 'rock-tap, step step, rock-tap step step.'

In this system the follower is stepping right foot on the downbeat for one bar, the left foot for the next. Or you could look at it as stepping back right foot on one side, and then back left on the other. It works for the moves they are doing here, but if the guy leads a first move, there is a 50% chance the follower will have to syncopate to get back on her right foot, depending on if she was back left or back right. Also, if you lead something like a t-pot she will have to do 'step-step-step-step' to walk around, changing from one system to another, and then back.

I'm not saying any of this is bad. It works and is clearly modern-jive. I just think that the step-step-step-step method is easier and quicker to teach beginners, has fewer 'exceptions to the rule' and is a better foundation for advanced dancers.


Also note, this is not how she freestyles now, as you can see from the other link I posted of her dancing with Robert, and how they danced together in Jive Masters. From Catriona's description of their Jive when she was over there the 'step per beat' method is the most common there as well. In fact I think it is more common in NZ at least because the arm-jive is rarely taught (which is one step per every second count) but the manhattan is taught often (which can only be done stepping once per beat.)

[TheTramp]

Is that Nicki Haslam, winner of the Jivemasters 2003?

Yes. Dancing with Louie Raish, on of her teachers in Sydney.

I'd imagine it's a fairly old video clip, since these days she mostly dances with Robert of course.

[under par]

there is some element of the ceroc bouncy hand there too!! once you stop watching their feet...

any comments!

[Amir]

there is some element of the ceroc bouncy hand there too!! once you stop watching their feet...

any comments!

Well I think this video is almost ten years old now (correct me historians if I'm wrong.) The craze for smooth dancing is fairly recent. If you watch old videos of almost any of todays smoothest dancers they used to bounce the hand.

Also, the song playing was written especially for the teaching dvd that is shown. It's not a great song, but I don't know anyone else who has had a song written, recorded and produced just for a modern-jive dvd! Although the main lyric is 'you've got me in a head spin' which perhaps should be discussed on a neighbouring and related thread.

That is just random trivia. It doesn't support my contention at all, but may distract you long enough to forget what we where arguing about, and just agree with me by default.

[Tessalicious]

I have to say, it's a better track than the more recent one (on the last set of Nicky's DVDs with Robert) which is actually called C.E.R.O.C. That one is a real earworm.

:walks away humming "C, E, R, O, Cee,ee":

[Amir]

IMHO, the biggest problem with women (and men, for that matter) who are taught to step on every beat is that they end up making huge steps where one is not necessary.
...


That's a good point - a teaching challenge would be to make sure people don't step too big. Or bop. Or step off time.

I expect there are draw backs to any system you choose, but I choose the 'step per beat' one because I think it has the least draw backs and the most advantages compared to other systems.

There is the other concern mentioned of people being scared off if there is any footwork mentioned. I guess some people might be. But I am pretty sure there are others who get frustrated because they don't know why things aren't working, and would benefit from a few extra guidelines which help things to work, as you say....


...
I'll admit that I will generally either step or transfer weight on every beat, because that is how the majority of Ceroc moves work best as a follower.

[eastmanjohn]

There is the other concern mentioned of people being scared off if there is any footwork mentioned. I guess some people might be. But I am pretty sure there are others who get frustrated because they don't know why things aren't working, and would benefit from a few extra guidelines which help things to work, as you say....


How about teaching how to turn and return. Do you have any general tips Amir? Earlier discussion was should we step the turns or spin on one foot? If you watch the early clip of Nicky again you'll see she does her clockwise turns on the right foot and anticlockwise on the left. She also finishes each of those turns by stepping back on that foot. In her more advanced (and more recent) clip I think she starts with 2 steps back and I think finsihes clockwise turns with the same double step back (which is consistent). How does anyone else teach the turns? How about Mr McGregor, what do you do?

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[Andy McGregor]

How about teaching how to turn and return. Do you have any general tips Amir? Earlier discussion was should we step the turns or spin on one foot? If you watch the early clip of Nicky again you'll see she does her clockwise turns on the right foot and anticlockwise on the left. She also finishes each of those turns by stepping back on that foot. This is a general technique that we have always taught for everyone including new beginners and it works well. How does anyone else teach the turns? How about Mr McGregor, what do you do?I teach the same. Although I do say "You turn on the foot in the direction you're turning, when you are turning to the right you do it on the right foor and when you're turning to the left you turn on the left". I find that clockwise and anti-clockwise confuses beginners. I still say it in later in the beginners lesson to get them used to which direction is which, but I also say turn, return, turn to the right and turn to the left to cover all the bases.

In the turns and returns the follower is still stepping on every beat. The way I teach it the pivot/turn bit of the turn and return takes one beat and is followed by a change of weight to the other foot.

[Amir]

How about teaching how to turn and return. Do you have any general tips Amir?


There are many kinds of turns and spins, so this is general, but for a modern jive style return, I would still step once per beat. This will make traveling returns easier, is better for floor craft, and is a good preparation for progressive assisted spins later. This is similar to salsa where if you lead a turn at the end of a cross body, for example, she maintains the footwork whilst turning.

If I was given a prep for a spin then as standard I would turn to the right on my right foot, left on my left foot.

Most spins in jive have the guy turning left and the lady right, so the rule you stated above works for this, whilst still having the guy step back left, lady back right as is my preference.

If as a follower I need to spin to my left I would normally still spin on my left foot, but then have to hold a count after to get back to stepping back right.

[David Bailey]

I teach the same. Although I do say "You turn on the foot in the direction you're turning, when you are turning to the right you do it on the right foor and when you're turning to the left you turn on the left".
:yeah: This is the way to teach salsa turns too - it's much more important in salsa to do it right I think, because the next step is usually a back step, so you have to be on the correct foot for the turn.