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David Bailey
20th-January-2007, 07:50 PM
Inspired by this post:

One thing I found slightly puzzling was the number of people there who clearly hadn't grasped the concept, and who wouldn't dance close or even make eye contact. What else is a blues evening for?

What would be your Golden Rules for Blues rooms behaviour?

(Note: not Blues Dancing, per se, but behaviour in Blues rooms)

Andreas
20th-January-2007, 08:01 PM
You know, I did a Blues workshop a few years back in NZ and was told that Blues is the dance that you dance at about 3am, when you have hardly enough energy to stand upright. So essentially your chin is resting on your partner's shoulder. How on Earth are you supposed to make eye contact then? :na:

Cruella
20th-January-2007, 08:03 PM
You know, I did a Blues workshop a few years back in NZ and was told that Blues is the dance that you dance at about 3am, when you have hardly enough energy to stand upright. So essentially your chin is resting on your partner's shoulder. How on Earth are you supposed to make eye contact then? :na:

Easy, you make it with the person dancing behind your dance partner. :D

Lee Bartholomew
20th-January-2007, 08:09 PM
Should the etiquette be different at all?

Icey
20th-January-2007, 08:20 PM
Inspired by this post:


What would be your Golden Rules for Blues rooms behaviour?

(Note: not Blues Dancing, per se, but behaviour in Blues rooms)

If you don't like the music don't stand there bleating that the music is crap, try another room as it may have something you do like.

Please don't do double pretzels at double speed just cos you can.

Lee Bartholomew
20th-January-2007, 08:27 PM
No eating hotdogs on the dancefloor (have seen it happen !!!)
No complaining that theres no tango, cha cha, disco.
No dancing in a monkey costume (this ones for my own good as I know it will end up happening one day)
No asking the DJ for "is this the way to Amarillo" even if it is a blues version
No multi Spins (get people complaining :whistle:)
No soiling yourself
No shouting "watch this, watch this" to someone on the side watching before doing a complex move and tripping your dance partner over (seen this happen too)
No putting fake dog mess in the middle of the floor to see if people notice
No party hats (blues is serious :yum:)
Try dancing a different style in the blues room just once a night (hip hop to the Gotam Project anyone?)

David Bailey
20th-January-2007, 09:31 PM
Should the etiquette be different at all?
Yes, it should.

Blues rooms - proper blues rooms - seem to have much more of this difficult-to-define "atmosphere".

And this atmosphere is difficult to achieve, but it's real - for example, anyone who went to last years' STB at Chiswick Town Hall can compare the atmosphere there to the subsequent Ceroc attempts at Chiswick Town Hall, and see the difference.

For example, musicality is vital to maintain the atmosphere in a Blues room - and the atmosphere gets seriously damaged if you see people bouncing around all Ceroc-y to a slow bluesy track.

Of course, arguably the same applies everywhere - everyone should dance to the music after all. But in a normal Ceroc room, I don't care if other dancers are doing weird things, it doesn't really disrupt my state of mind much.

Any others?

Lynn
20th-January-2007, 09:36 PM
No complaining that theres no tango, cha cha, disco.

Try dancing a different style in the blues room just once a night (hip hop to the Gotam Project anyone?) But then you'd end up having to complain that there was no tango music for you to hip hop to...

I would suggest
- if unsure what to do, spend a few tracks observing, keep moves simple, try to feel the music, don't be intimidated.

Lee Bartholomew
20th-January-2007, 09:57 PM
{snip}

I know what you mean. The General base rules should be the same. Maybe just some added ones.

I guess what you are trying to get are the rules that make the blues rooms different?

There is def a different atmosphere in a good blues room. Is hard to define. Couldn't describe it to someone who's never been to one before. Best I can come up with is chilled.

With regards to Hip Hopping a Tango track. Try it. If it goes wrong you've not lost anything. Try it the other way round as well (would recommend telling your dance partner what you are doing first though. Saves later explaining. lol)

ducasi
20th-January-2007, 10:30 PM
First you say your query is not about dancing, but about behaviour in the blues room...

What would be your Golden Rules for Blues rooms behaviour?

(Note: not Blues Dancing, per se, but behaviour in Blues rooms)
But then you start talking about dancing...

For example, musicality is vital to maintain the atmosphere in a Blues room - and the atmosphere gets seriously damaged if you see people bouncing around all Ceroc-y to a slow bluesy track.

Of course, arguably the same applies everywhere - everyone should dance to the music after all. But in a normal Ceroc room, I don't care if other dancers are doing weird things, it doesn't really disrupt my state of mind much.
What was the question again?

philsmove
21st-January-2007, 10:50 AM
......you dance at about 3am, when you have hardly enough energy to stand upright.:

Very similar to what I was told, by a dark sultry lady at my first blues class

She also said it should be a smoke filled room

straycat
21st-January-2007, 11:41 AM
You know, I did a Blues workshop a few years back in NZ and was told that Blues is the dance that you dance at about 3am, when you have hardly enough energy to stand upright. So essentially your chin is resting on your partner's shoulder. How on Earth are you supposed to make eye contact then? :na:

It is at that. But it's a very versatile dance, and gets done at other times of the night, with different energy levels - and often this does demand eye contact.

When all's said and done though, proper blues is a very very connected dance... which is hard to achieve with someone you can't even make eye contact with :really:

TA Guy
21st-January-2007, 12:09 PM
Very similar to what I was told, by a dark sultry lady at my first blues class

She also said it should be a smoke filled room

Slightly off-topic. Sorry, but I always think 'like something out of Casablanca' :) (although I've never actually seen Casablanca. LOL). Or the dim basement of some midnight Paris cafe, small tables, metal chairs, extractor fans.... If you know what I mean.
Something like that, is prolly where the 'smoke filled' comes from. Maybe she's been influenced by all those old black and white movies like me :)

I've absolutely no idea whether that's what todays modern Blues dilettante is expecting, or looking for... I've not danced enough Blues to know...

Amongst other things, Blues suggests intimacy to me (in a dance sense), all the Blues rooms I've ever come across have been just too large and/or too open to maintain that illusion. Doesn't mean you can't have a good Blues dance obviously, but it's not 'real Blues' as in my imagination :)

Feelingpink
21st-January-2007, 12:58 PM
If you don't like the music don't stand there bleating that the music is crap, try another room as it may have something you do like.

Please don't do double pretzels at double speed just cos you can.
... because otherwise someone may just break your arm ... just 'cos they can. :devil: :D

Caro
21st-January-2007, 01:12 PM
Of course great music, intimate venue and lighting, good floor and appropriate moves / style of dancing (i.e. not bouncy) help to create the atmosphere and etiquette of a blues room, but to me the :awe: factor will actually come from the people I dance with... doesn't necessarily mean the best dancers, just people I am confortable enough with to really dance blues, which does involve giving a little bit more of yourself than regular MJ. And I might just be a little prude but I don't often achieve that (losing some control in the dance to get the intimacy/connection it requires) with people I don't know / never danced with before.
So in the end, the more I frequent blues rooms, the more likely I am to have great 'blues dances' and consequently to think 'this was a fab blues room'.

As to how does this relate to etiquette; easy, I'd say (some) men and probably ladies too need to be aware that there very often is a period of mutual 'taming' required to achieve the intimacy of a good blues dance. Which IMO cannot be achieved in just one dance and then move on to next partner. I'd say, again for me, that at least 2 dances (in a row) are required, and very often more.

Lynn
21st-January-2007, 01:54 PM
Posting this here, as I thought it fitted in this thread better as its an ettiquette issue (from the Utopia (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=332414#post332414)thread)


As a noobie (2 years of MJ), switching to blues isn't straight forward. Yes I understand the concept, it's not just the same moves done slow (obviously). How do I know? 'Cos a while ago a lady in the blues room in Daventry stopped me mid dance and said, "this is the kinda thing you should be doing". The penny dropped. I think its a little easier for followers. I was dancing about 6 months and had only been to one freestyle of any sort when I first ventured into a blues room and I initially mainly wanted to watch to get an idea of what I should be doing. But of course I did get up and dance and it was much easier for me to say 'I've never danced blues before' and the leads to adjust and for me to learn.

The way you learn to dance blues, whether lead or follow is simply - be aware that its not just MJ slowed up - and be prepared to get up and dance. You mightn't get it to perfectly flow straight away, I still mess up things I'm 'trying', but the experimenting is fun!

If the person you are dancing with hasn't got it yet, take the time to guide them. Otherwise you'll continue to have a room with people not doing blues, or a room full of all the people that already know blues but then there'll be no new faces as the learners will not progress and won't stay with it. Curious about this. I have seen newbies in weekender blues rooms and have gently tried to given non verbal clues about things they could be doing. But I never know if I should or not - if as a follower I should just passively follow, or if I should dance a bit more the way I usually do in a blues room.

I normally start with something simple such as keeping my follow really smooth. I've once had that result in an increasingly bouncy hand from the leader who clearly thought I just couldn't find the beat. :rolleyes: I did the passive follower thing in that case.

boardrider
21st-January-2007, 02:42 PM
[snip]
Curious about this. I have seen newbies in weekender blues rooms and have gently tried to given non verbal clues about things they could be doing. But I never know if I should or not - if as a follower I should just passively follow, or if I should dance a bit more the way I usually do in a blues room.



I would say definitely give clues and dance the way you usually do. Otherwise us blues-noobie leads don't get to feel what it should be like.
If they still insist on marking time with an increasingly frantic wrist action, well........ I'll leave it there.

Ghost
21st-January-2007, 03:19 PM
Just a thought - although there are normal rule of ettiquette in Ceroc, is it that it's more important in a Blues Room that they're actually adhered too?

So when you've finally sunk into that blissed and chilled out place, someone crashing into you is going to be far more disturbing. It's the old joke of the father who meditates for an hour, attains a state of peace..... and then his 3 year old comes in demanding attention "Go away - I'm meditating on inner peace!!!!!" he yells as his inner peace flies out the window :blush:

I think there's a tango saying that it takes 3 good dances to iron out 1 bad dance. Maybe there's an equivalent - it takes 3 good blues dances to get over one piece of broken ettiquette. And that's 3 good dances you won't get back :tears:

There's also the issue of the relative rarity of Blues Rooms. If you only get to go to one every now and then, you're going to be more protective of the expereience, whereas if you can Ceroc every night, then some twit with bad floorcraft for one dance isn't such a big deal.

straycat
21st-January-2007, 03:25 PM
I think there's a tango saying that it takes 3 good dances to iron out 1 bad dance. Maybe there's an equivalent - it takes 3 good blues dances to get over one piece of broken ettiquette. And that's 3 good dances you won't get back :tears:


Personally, I find that one great blues dance (especially of the religious-experience variety) can overcome any number of bad ones.



There's also the issue of the relative rarity of Blues Rooms. If you only get to go to one every now and then, you're going to be more protective of the expereience, whereas if you can Ceroc every night, then some twit with bad floorcraft for one dance isn't such a big deal.
:yeah: Very very true.

Blues room etiquette though? Mostly, I think it just boils down to common sense and good manners. Stick with those, and you won't go far wrong.

Lory
21st-January-2007, 03:25 PM
I don't think Blues Rooms are for everyone, as some people just don't feel comfortable with dancing intensely or passionately (when I say passion, I mean passion in the musical interpretation sense), they feel uncomfortable making eye contact, dancing in a close embrace and feel self conscious about 'styling it out' :waycool: :blush:

I'm not for one minute saying people are wrong for feeling that way and I know a lot of the above, is usually just a result of lack of confidence, due to their lack of exposure to Blues but.....

.....In the etiquette sense,

I feel, it would be wrong for someone to approach a Blues room, if they know in advance they have 'issues' with any of the above mentioned and expect everyone to dance to suit their preferences. i.e provide a 12" gap in-between them!

ducasi
21st-January-2007, 05:04 PM
I don't see the blues room etiquette as being so different than in the "main" room.

Some etiquette comes to mind...

The dance...

Dance with care for your partner and those around you.
Dance with the music.
Dance with your partner.

Other things...

Don't "hog" dancers.
Don't ask the DJ for unsuitable music.
Um...

I guess it all comes down to respect.

Show your partner respect.
Show the other dancers respect.
Show the music respect.
Show the DJ respect.
:respect:

None of that is really different than in the main room, though perhaps a greater adherence to this etiquette is expected in the blues room.

Oh, and remember the number one rule of blues dancing – when you're in a close hold, and your partner has rested her (or his?) head on your shoulder, you are not allowed to lead out into an open hold. (Unless the music really, really demands it, and you just can't help yourself! :o)

MartinHarper
21st-January-2007, 07:14 PM
What would be your Golden Rules for Blues rooms behaviour?

Mostly the same as any other dance room. If possible, don't crowd me just because I'm currently dancing close. I might not want to spend the whole song like that, and I occasionally feel "trapped" when I want to send my partner out, and there's nowhere for her to go.

I don't mind how other people dance with each other. From my own dancing I recognise that a track might be confusing, or it might offer an interpretation other than the smooth+sexy standard "blues" style. Ok, so I don't like it when folks bump into me or scare me, but what else is new?

frodo
21st-January-2007, 08:48 PM
...
Blues rooms - proper blues rooms - seem to have much more of this difficult-to-define "atmosphere" ...

For example, musicality is vital to maintain the atmosphere in a Blues room - and the atmosphere gets seriously damaged if you see people bouncing around all Ceroc-y to a slow bluesy track.

... in a normal Ceroc room, I don't care if other dancers are doing weird things, it doesn't really disrupt my state of mind much.


I feel, it would be wrong for someone to approach a Blues room, if they know in advance they have 'issues' with any of the above mentioned and expect everyone to dance to suit their preferences. i.e provide a 12" gap in-between them! Nothing wrong with a 12in gap to slower music. Luckily I don't expect everyone else to dance with a 12 in gap.


For a 'proper' blues room atmosphere to exist maybe it requires.

Room
Suitable music.
Not too empty and not too full.
Suitable lighting, temperature and sound volume levels.

Dancer
Lots of eye contact
Close embrace dancing.
Dancers showing lots of musicality.
Lots of passionate dancing.
A very high standard of dancing.
Dancers who know each other suitably well.


What exactly is meant by 'Blues' room seems quite ill-defined.
If a 'Blues' room requires all these attributes it isn't unreasonable to say it isn't etiquette to do anything to disrupt it (either by presence or act).

However if it the 'Blues' room primarily is about slower, more interesting, lower volume, less thump thump music, then the appropriate etiquette wouldn't differ much from Ceroc.

So it comes down again to what is meant here by 'Blues Room' ? - Maybe it depends on who shows up.

Gus
21st-January-2007, 09:01 PM
When all's said and done though, proper blues is a very very connected dance... which is hard to achieve with someone you can't even make eye contact with :really:Not sure that I would take that as an axiom. For nice slow lating dancing at medium to long distance I find eye contact usefull to give increased connection and 'passion'(?). However, given you are very close for Blues, and given I wear glasses, trying to look in someones eyes from six inches makes my eyes go funny (yup, that can be interpretted many ways). I've always danced and taught Blues as an extended hug, following on from how I was taught Blues by Nigel & Nina. The occaisioanl eye contact can be nice, but I like to think of Blues being a dance of two people forming one body, being led but subtle changes of posture and balance ... well, it works for me :grin:

straycat
21st-January-2007, 09:15 PM
Not sure that I would take that as an axiom. For nice slow lating dancing at medium to long distance I find eye contact usefull to give increased connection and 'passion'(?). However, given you are very close for Blues, and given I wear glasses, trying to look in someones eyes from six inches makes my eyes go funny (yup, that can be interpretted many ways). I've always danced and taught Blues as an extended hug, following on from how I was taught Blues by Nigel & Nina. The occaisioanl eye contact can be nice, but I like to think of Blues being a dance of two people forming one body, being led but subtle changes of posture and balance ... well, it works for me :grin:

Depends how one defines Blues, but to me, it ranges from the aforementioned body 'squinteyed' hug to something a lot more wide-ranging. Blues is not a speed, a distance, a 'hug', a pose, a set of moves... to me, it's more a feeling than anything else. Eye-contact is only maintained when it can (easily) be, but it's an important part of that feeling.

jivecat
21st-January-2007, 10:20 PM
For a 'proper' blues room atmosphere to exist maybe it requires.

Room
Suitable music.
Not too empty and not too full.
Suitable lighting, temperature and sound volume levels.

Dancer
Lots of eye contact
Close embrace dancing.
Dancers showing lots of musicality.
Lots of passionate dancing.
A very high standard of dancing.
Dancers who know each other suitably well.


I agree about the room requirements, and would add that ideally, a certain amount of privacy and seclusion is a good thing in a blues room, i.e. plenty of murky corners.
Not sure about the dancer requirements, though.


Lots of eye contact
Close embrace dancing.

From my tango experience I would say that it is pretty much impossible to have much eye contact whilst in close embrace. Not that this reduces the connection in any way, far from it.

A very high standard of dancing.

This worries me a bit. I know several people, who are perfectly good dancers, being put off blues rooms because they perceive themselves as being excluded by a generally higher standard of dancing. So, whilst having that high standard is laudable, the atmosphere has to be welcoming. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Dancers who know each other suitably well.


Lots of blues dancers do know each other by now in the small blues community but is certainly not a pre-requisite. I've had many a blistering blues-dance with a complete stranger, never to see them again. The nature of dance connection allows this kind of thing and is something to be prized, in my view.

Can't argue about the passion and musicality, though.

MartinHarper
22nd-January-2007, 02:08 AM
Blues rooms - proper blues rooms - seem to have much more of this difficult-to-define "atmosphere".

What do you see as the benefits of this difficult-to-define atmosphere?
What can you do with the right atmosphere that you can't do with the wrong atmosphere?

David Bailey
22nd-January-2007, 09:11 AM
What do you see as the benefits of this difficult-to-define atmosphere?
It's difficult to define.
Hahahahaha, thankyouverymuch, I'll be here all week.

Oh, OK then. It provides a "rush", at its best, where every dance is an intense experience. It almost feels like you're holding your breath during your dance, and then you let it all out at the end. Bit like dancing AT really :)


What can you do with the right atmosphere that you can't do with the wrong atmosphere?
Make new friends and influence people. :innocent:

MartinHarper
22nd-January-2007, 11:06 AM
It provides a "rush", at its best, where every dance is an intense experience. It almost feels like you're holding your breath during your dance, and then you let it all out at the end.

Hmm. In my experience, that feeling comes from the person I'm dancing with, and how we're dancing together, rather than what's going on around us.

pawplay
22nd-January-2007, 11:40 AM
It provides a "rush", at its best, where every dance is an intense experience. It almost feels like you're holding your breath during your dance, and then you let it all out at the end.

Please say your going to southport in Feb......!!:drool: :drool: (assuming my knees stop wobbling in time!!)

straycat
22nd-January-2007, 12:43 PM
What do you see as the benefits of this difficult-to-define atmosphere?
What can you do with the right atmosphere that you can't do with the wrong atmosphere?

For a start, you can have dances so special and intense that you still get a rush when you're daydreaming about them six months - or in one case, five years - later. OK - so that is possible in most kinds of atmosphere, but it's a whole lot more likely if the setting's right.

Notes from our main local Milonga venue. The first time I went (there was an MJ evening being held there at the time, but no longer), I thought it was a slightly seedy, below-par venue.

Since the local AT teachers started using it, I've changed my viewpoint. They spend about two hours every Sunday setting it up, cleaning it :really:, setting the tables up just right, putting red table cloths on every table, putting roses and candles on each table, and so on and so forth - and they've turned this forgettable venue into something magical, and one that would be perfect for blues.

sapphire
22nd-January-2007, 12:51 PM
For a start, you can have dances so special and intense that you still get a rush when you're daydreaming about them six months - or in one case, five years - later. OK - so that is possible in most kinds of atmosphere, but it's a whole lot more likely if the setting's right.

So true...My best blues dances have been in smallish intimate venues.

whitetiger1518
22nd-January-2007, 01:32 PM
Connection Connection Connection


:awe: :blush: Nothing better IMHO than a Blues dance :worthy: :drool: :blush:

I have had blues dances that I dream about oh so much and which take oh so much boredom out of work!

IMHO there are two types of Blues dancing (in my experience anyway ;) )

The type where I melt into my partners eyes :innocent: - there is no escape and I will happily drown there :awe: until I am freed by the track ending :tears:

The type where our eyes are shut and I am led ever so gently by the slightest most electric touch of the leaders fingers...:worthy: :awe:


Mmmmm *Glasgow skyline fades and Whitetiger is no longer at a computer terminal - she is dancing in the Blues room :blush: *

Unless you have been there, you cannot know what you are missing.

Daydreaming Whitetiger

David Bailey
22nd-January-2007, 01:35 PM
Please say your going to southport in Feb......!!:drool: :drool: (assuming my knees stop wobbling in time!!)
No problem: " You're going to southport in Feb."

Some people are easily pleased...

tsh
22nd-January-2007, 04:07 PM
And this atmosphere is difficult to achieve, but it's real - for example, anyone who went to last years' STB at Chiswick Town Hall can compare the atmosphere there to the subsequent Ceroc attempts at Chiswick Town Hall, and see the difference.


I don't think I've seen this atmosphere recreated anywhere since. A combination of a workshop to set the scene, several familiar faces, and some extremely good dancers to copy or experiment with.

The only advice i can offer for trying to lead in blues is to try and resist the temptation to lead any moves, and you'll probably still end up leading enough.

Sean

spindr
22nd-January-2007, 04:11 PM
Moderate your perfume / aftershave -- your partner's going to be close enough, that you won't need to douse yourself.

SpinDr

TheTramp
22nd-January-2007, 05:55 PM
No problem: " You're going to southport in Feb."

Some people are easily pleased...

Oh David, you cad! Spoiling a poor girls dreams! :flower:

pawplay
22nd-January-2007, 06:29 PM
No problem: " You're going to southport in Feb."

Some people are easily pleased...


Now you've burst my bubble, you were so eloquent earlier!!:sad: Don't tell me i'm going to have to make do with trampy again:eek:

Blueshoes
22nd-January-2007, 06:29 PM
Blues room etiquette? I'd just ask that people listen to what the music is telling them and interpret it slowly and sensually.

To me blues is about closeness, either through body contact or eye contact or both (try dancing forehead to forehead). You can't achieve the same feeling of togetherness in faster jive.

I've found the most chilled atmosphere at weekenders in the early hours of the morning where like minded people are gathered. In the best blues dances I can lose myself in my partner and the music, barely moving at times, with only two people existing in the world, and at the end awake as from a dream with the awareness I just don't want to let go.....

HelenB
22nd-January-2007, 07:20 PM
In the best blues dances I can lose myself in my partner and the music, barely moving at times, with only two people existing in the world, and at the end awake as from a dream with the awareness I just don't want to let go.....

:yeah:

I can remember one time where the dance was so intense it seemed like everyone round me was a blur :drool: ('cept my partner of course :rolleyes: )
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MartinHarper
22nd-January-2007, 07:34 PM
Blues room etiquette? I'd just ask that people listen to what the music is telling them and interpret it slowly and sensually.

My problem with that advice is that some music played in "blues" rooms doesn't tell me to dance slowly and sensually. Some of it calls for sharp actions. Some of it cries out to be double-timed.

TheTramp
22nd-January-2007, 07:45 PM
I can remember one time where the dance was so intense it seemed like everyone round me was a blur :drool: ('cept my partner of course :rolleyes: )

There are people there?? :eek:

Lynn
22nd-January-2007, 08:27 PM
My problem with that advice is that some music played in "blues" rooms doesn't tell me to dance slowly and sensually. Some of it calls for sharp actions. Some of it cries out to be double-timed.But it can be that fast and slow contrast, in the music and the dance, that makes it so great.

David Bailey
22nd-January-2007, 08:55 PM
Now you've burst my bubble, you were so eloquent earlier!!
That was the DavidJamesGestalt's morning shift - I think Fred was on then, he's good with words. You're stuck with me (Kev) now though. Sorry.

pawplay
23rd-January-2007, 11:28 AM
That was the DavidJamesGestalt's morning shift - I think Fred was on then, he's good with words. You're stuck with me (Kev) now though. Sorry.

Let me know when he comes back, i like talking to him about bachata:rofl:

HelenB
23rd-January-2007, 08:27 PM
There are people there?? :eek:

yup, merely a dance......:whistle:


But it can be that fast and slow contrast, in the music and the dance, that makes it so great.

:yeah: The skill is being able to control from the fast to the slow.

The main etiquette point for me is to have an awareness of the space around you - I always keep an eye out behind my partner to stop any iminent collisions. Not always easy. It comes from a ballroom dancing background and being stepped on too many times by other people's killer heels :tears: Shame they don't teach floorcraft in MJ.

Not that this etiquette should just be for the blues room