Pretzels - Love 'em or Hate 'em???

[Lory]

Well :wink:

[Lee Bartholomew]

I have nothing against the salty twirly snack.

Could the poll not have been multi choices as I lead and follow

[LMC]

non-existent "pretzels of all kinds are OK *in moderation* but any lead who uses multiple pretzels in a blues track should be taken out and shot"

[Lynn]

non-existent "pretzels of all kinds are OK *in moderation* but any lead who uses multiple pretzels in a blues track should be taken out and shot":rofl: Almost the first thing I tell guys I know who are beginning to try to learn blues is 'no pretzels please.'

But generally OK occasionally. Like maybe once a year...

[Lee Bartholomew]

I don't mind them when I follow. Gets a little tedious when single basic pretzels are done over and over but a few complicated ones that lead you to asking how they were done are always good IMO.

I tend not to really lead pretzels much unless im with a beginner or doing a variation (or bored (but then I tend to revert to the octopus over and over lol)).

[Andy McGregor]

The problem with pretzels is the 'offer' in the way it is taught by Ceroc. IMHO all such 'offers' are bad dancing. I think you should be albe to pick up the follows hand without expecting her to see that you're making some kind of 'offer'.

Other than that, the pretzel is a move and could be used if it fits the music. Something with a regular beat like 'Dance the Night Away' would be a track for the pretzel.

[Lee Bartholomew]

The problem with pretzels is the 'offer' in the way it is taught by Ceroc. IMHO all such 'offers' are bad dancing. I think you should be albe to pick up the follows hand without expecting her to see that you're making some kind of 'offer'.



I don't think this is limited to Ceroc. Been to many Leroc and other Modern Jive classes that show it the same way. The worst offenders get you to wiggle your fingers or glance at your hand to let the woman know.

In theory any signal given by a hand at waist level should be missed as the woman should not be looking at the waist!:what:

I've always taught it by getting men to offer in a side onwards position which I think looks a little neater, but I think everyone will have their own little way of doing a pretzel which is part of the magic of modern jive I guess.

[Katie Kicks Ass]

I have nothing against the salty twirly snack.



:yeah:

[Yogi_Bear]

non-existent "pretzels of all kinds are OK *in moderation* but any lead who uses multiple pretzels in a blues track should be taken out and shot"
Does any sort of pretzel have a place in any sort of blues track?

[Ghost]

Well :wink:
Leading them - hate 'em. Floorcraft options become very limited during them. Nearly got kicked in the head halfway through one protecting my partner from a couple trying to do an aerial on a crowded floor :angry: False pretzels can be fun though, especially on people who've done ballet :)

Following them - depends entirely who's leading. Nearly had my shoulder dislocated once :sick: , but have also had them led smooth as silk :)

[JiveLad]

The problem with pretzels is the 'offer' in the way it is taught by Ceroc. IMHO all such 'offers' are bad dancing. I think you should be albe to pick up the follows hand without expecting her to see that you're making some kind of 'offer'.

Other than that, the pretzel is a move and could be used if it fits the music. Something with a regular beat like 'Dance the Night Away' would be a track for the pretzel.

Hi Andy - Regarding 'leading without offering' - I've noticed this viewpoint elsewhere. I'm intrigued by it - and how to develop that technique. Is there another thread or resource which explains it a bit more? (Couldn't find on search).

[Clueless]

I don't think this is limited to Ceroc. Been to many Leroc and other Modern Jive classes that show it the same way. The worst offenders get you to wiggle your fingers or glance at your hand to let the woman know.

In theory any signal given by a hand at waist level should be missed as the woman should not be looking at the waist!:what:

I've always taught it by getting men to offer in a side onwards position which I think looks a little neater, but I think everyone will have their own little way of doing a pretzel which is part of the magic of modern jive I guess.

I can only do one variation of the pretzel so I dont think I can't really vote.

Though I must admit when I 'offer' for the pretzle I have to over exaggerate it cause 9/10 I wear an open shirt over a white t-shirt and the amount of times girls have missed that offer is unreal.

Your suggestion offering it from side on sounds like an idea,Thanks :grin:

[MartinHarper]

In theory any signal given by a hand at waist level should be missed as the woman should not be looking at the waist!

Isn't peripheral vision a wondrous thing?

Pretzels are ok. Nothing special. Sometimes they fit the music/moment.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Isn't peripheral vision a wondrous thing?



If eye contact is being made, a signal would be missed, Unless you are dancing at arms length of course.

[Frankie_4711]

Voted for the 'love 'em all' option, although that's not strictly true, but I have nothing against any of them as follow or lead (although I can only lead 3!) except the 'thumb-to-the-nose' or 'stick-the-tongue-out' :na: versions of the false pretzel ... WHY???

[Clueless]

Voted for the 'love 'em all' option, although that's not strictly true, but I have nothing against any of them as follow or lead (although I can only lead 3!) except the 'thumb-to-the-nose' or 'stick-the-tongue-out' :na: versions of the false pretzel ... WHY???

I just do that for the banter :D

[Yogi_Bear]

I can only do one variation of the pretzel so I dont think I can't really vote.

Though I must admit when I 'offer' for the pretzle I have to over exaggerate it cause 9/10 I wear an open shirt over a white t-shirt and the amount of times girls have missed that offer is unreal.

Your suggestion offering it from side on sounds like an idea,Thanks :grin:
I was always taught to lead a pretzel by turning my body clockwise while signalling, the idea being that the follower can see your left hand much more easily. Plus, I suppose, the sideways body position is a dead giveaway.
These days I try never to lead anything that needs a hand signal.:whistle:

I did prefer the Cynthia's pretzel, where both dance round each other without rotating (named after Cynthia Farleigh from Ceroc Anglia).

[purplehyacinth]

I have nothing against the salty twirly snack.



:yeah: so long as it's the nice full-size bread-like pretzel you get in Germany, not these silly wee mini-pretzel things.

As far as the move goes, it depends who is leading it. If it is someone who is dislocating my elbow/shoulder, then for obvious reasons, I will be liking it a lot less......

[MartinHarper]

The 'thumb-to-the-nose' or 'stick-the-tongue-out' :na: versions of the false pretzel ... WHY???

It's a running joke. Kinda like people who quote Monty Python.

For me, dances and songs can express different emotions, including different types of humour. The cheesiness of the childish false pretzel works well to music that is equally cheesy. Also, it can alter the mood of a dance that has become too serious or too intense, or act as a response to a similar "tricked you" variation from my partner.

It's nice to have a few joke moves in my dancing toolbox, just as it's nice to have a few jokes in my conversational toolbox.

[Lory]

It's a running joke. Kinda like people who quote Monty Python.

For me, dances and songs can express different emotions, including different types of humour. The cheesiness of the childish false pretzel works well to music that is equally cheesy. Also, it can alter the mood of a dance that has become too serious or too intense,


:yeah: To all the above.

They never fail to make me laugh :blush: I usually thrown back an equally tongue in cheek 'rolling eyes groan' :wink:

[FirstMove]

/pedantic mathematician= on

The actual arm knot in a pretzel move is just a twisted loop. No mater how much flailing about you do, you'll never create a pretzel shape from it.


/pedantic mathematician= off

To achieve a real pretzel shape - M crosses his arms, then W takes hold R to R and L to L. Can anyone find a way to lead this that doesn't need arm origami? :devil:

[Yogi_Bear]

/pedantic mathematician= on

The actual arm knot in a pretzel move is just a twisted loop. No mater how much flailing about you do, you'll never create a pretzel shape from it.


/pedantic mathematician= off

To achieve a real pretzel shape - M crosses his arms, then W takes hold R to R and L to L. Can anyone find a way to lead this that doesn't need arm origami? :devil:
well, if i have this right then from a standard R/R hold the M offers left hand underneath and W will naturally take it....more or less there.

[FirstMove]

well, if i have this right then from a standard R/R hold the M offers left hand underneath and W will naturally take it....more or less there.

Try what I said; it's not the same.:what:

[TheTramp]

Try what I said; it's not the same.:what:

You're going to have to explain what you mean better. I'm with Yogi....

[tsh]

I've stopped using them because they just seem to be too much effort to lead without the risk of missing signals or twisted arms. The false pretzl is about the only one I use - which is more or less led rather than signalled.

Sean

[FirstMove]

You're going to have to explain what you mean better. I'm with Yogi....

M Crosses arms, L forearm over R forearm
W takes RH with her RH
W takes LH with her LH, taking hold round the outside of the M's R bicep

If you've done what I intend then you will have a proper pretzel shape desribed by your arms. There is no way to unravel back to any normal 2 handed hold.
:what:

[MartinHarper]

M Crosses arms, L forearm over R forearm

IE, cross as in "sit still with your arms crossed", rather than cross in an MJ sense.

[Brian Doolan]

I do half pretzels occasionally, full pretzels very rarely and double pretzels ONLY with the few ladies who I know can be successfully led into them, they're too cumbersome otherwise and look totally ridiculous when carried out off or out of time. I keep a light contact at all times so the move can be easily aborted at any time and that can often cause the lead to be lost if the lady is unsure of the move.
There are far more nicer moves than pretzels anyway.

[Trouble]

:awe: you gotta love a pretzeller. :awe:

[Jamie]

non-existent "pretzels of all kinds are OK *in moderation* but any lead who uses multiple pretzels in a blues track should be taken out and shot"

Check you out! Have some rep! well written! :D

[Beowulf]

I only know the one, and it's a single and one of the few moves I can do so I guess I'll have to vote for being a lead who likes single pretzels. :D

EDIT

after looking at the voting.

Note to self.. Never do my lone pretzel move with Genie then :blush:

[Dai]

i like to lead pretzels, but not too many, i generally do a variation rather than the normal pretzel, but rarely do multiple pretzels.

I like to follow the variations, but not overly keen on more than a double pretzel.

[SeriouslyAddicted]

I love Pretzels as a follower and I enjoy leading them too but that is mainly coz it is the only vaguely non-simple move that I have worked out how to lead!

[Clueless]

It is a firm favorite move of mine an is one of the few moves that has found a permanent place in my repertoire! :D :D

[Beowulf]

I only know the one, and it's a single and one of the few moves I can do so I guess I'll have to vote for being a lead who likes single pretzels. :D

EDIT

after looking at the voting.

Note to self.. Never do my lone pretzel move with Genie then :blush:

Doing a pretzel with anyone who hates them shouldn't be a problem any more.. It's been so long since I lead one ... I've forgotten how to do them :tears:

I get as far as the "right hand signalling behind the back" bit.. then I get myself into a knot everytime without fail :tears: :tears:

[Clueless]

Doing a pretzel with anyone who hates them shouldn't be a problem any more.. It's been so long since I lead one ... I've forgotten how to do them :tears:

I get as far as the "right hand signalling behind the back" bit.. then I get myself into a knot everytime without fail :tears: :tears:

I'll show how to do one if you want...

[Double Trouble]

It is a firm favorite move of mine an is one of the few moves that has found a permanent place in my repertoire! :D :D

http://www.type116.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_sick.gif

[Wuzzle]

I like the pretzel as much as the yoyo variations. Difference is I can stop pretzeling yoyo's can take little effort (musssst useee.... powerr....sss) oh no there goes another yoyo :rofl: (D'oh)

First Pretzel I learnt went into a basket. So normally it doesn't take to much thought for me to go striaght into a basket from there.

Learning the basic pretzel was real hard :whistle: I was tired and fighting against muscle memory. Its rather difficult to get a move out of muscle memory when your tired. :sick:
Learnt how to pretzel over and over and over.. .:clap: Think i done 7 ones but that was just for fun :rofl: don't think i'd put 7 into a dance. :whistle:

One the dance floor i tend to do one every so offen. :whistle: Multi pretzels just to keep it in my brain (the silly factor i like knowing how its done). :yum:

[timbp]

In my second ever ceroc class I was taught a false pretzel. I still lead a false pretzel variation more often than a real pretzel (and I have 4 false pretzel variations I can think of right now).

I can think of 3 times I have been taught the continuous pretzel, but I still cannot remember how to lead it (and why should I remember it, when the girls I like to dance with dont' like twisty, pretzelly moves?).

I get a better smile if I look like I'm leading some twisty complex move but it finishes early, without the twisty complex bit, but with some relation to the music...Maybe girls like more musical dancing?

[David Bailey]

You're all completely insane.

The Pretzel is Satan's work - it's dangerous, it's silly, it has no opportunity for style and interpretation, and it's just a pattern of movements which look superficially attractive, but which don't allow you to dance.

Hmmm.... typical MJ move, then.

[Wuzzle]

You're all completely insane.

The Pretzel is Satan's work - it's dangerous, it's silly, it has no opportunity for style and interpretation, and it's just a pattern of movements which look superficially attractive, but which don't allow you to dance.

Hmmm.... typical MJ move, then.

Well you can slow it down. Could stop a quater way through turn it into something completely different :na:

[timbp]

it has no opportunity for style and interpretation
I think the pretzel has many opportunities for style and interpretation. If a move is X beats long, surely it has at least 2X opportunities for style and interpretation (at each beat, do the move as taught, or do something else).

and when you consider how "as taught" varies according to teacher, the possibilities increase exponentially.

[David Bailey]

Well you can slow it down. Could stop a quater way through turn it into something completely different :na:
What, when you're back-to-back with your partner, arms in weird nelson-postions, and moving relatively quickly in relation to each other? :eek:

The phrase "accident waiting to happen" springs to mind...


I think the pretzel has many opportunities for style and interpretation.
Since most of the move is not actually led, it's just a sequence of remembered arm and leg movements, it's difficult to see how?

For that matter, the fake pretzel's even worse - you give a clear signal for one start of a pattern, then lead something different; how evil is that? The very fact that a false pretzel exists is an indication of how little lead-and-follow is involved in the move.

[Double Trouble]

The Pretzel is Satan's work

:yeah: I vote 'ban the pretzel'.:mad:

[timbp]

Since most of the move is not actually led, it's just a sequence of remembered arm and leg movements, it's difficult to see how?

I think the move is led.

The follower's leg movements follow her body; her body follows her arms; her arms are manipulated by the lead, except that I am not sure how to ensure the arm goes over the girl's head rather than bending behind her back. And I don't know if that is a fundamental problem with leading the move, or just my lack of skill. Nevertheless, it is only at that one point that my lead for the move falters -- hardly "most of the move".


fake pretzel's even worse - you give a clear signal for one start of a pattern, then lead something different
Actually, I don't often give a clear signal. I just lead the girl to pass behind me. If I want her to take my hand I offer it, and the more committed I am to a real pretzel the earlier and more obviously I offer my hand.

[Wuzzle]

What, when you're back-to-back with your partner, arms in weird nelson-postions, and moving relatively quickly in relation to each other? :eek:

Yup....



For that matter, the fake pretzel's even worse - you give a clear signal for one start of a pattern, then lead something different; how evil is that? The very fact that a false pretzel exists is an indication of how little lead-and-follow is involved in the move.

Yeah fake pretzels can be evil but then blocking a move half way through can be pretty evil. :devil:

[MartinHarper]

I think the move is led.

I agree. There are plenty of Pretzel variations that show different ways into and out of the "standard" Pretzel, and it's certainly possible to slow it down at various points. Admittedly it's mostly an arm-lead move, so I can see why folks who strongly prefer body leads might consider it unleadable.

[TA Guy]

Since most of the move is not actually led, it's just a sequence of remembered arm and leg movements, it's difficult to see how?

For that matter, the fake pretzel's even worse - you give a clear signal for one start of a pattern, then lead something different; how evil is that? The very fact that a false pretzel exists is an indication of how little lead-and-follow is involved in the move.

Your taking the mickey right ?
Of course it's led, it just happens to be an arm led move for the most part (misleading, see below). A constant full frame is not an absolute requirement for dancing ya know! :)

As to leading something different with a false pretzel, lots of MJ moves start with an identical step back or leverage in, is no lead and follow involved there then ? Dance is full of identical signals and patterns, it's what happens next on the fly that counts, you know, dance isn't static, it's dynamic like :)

You were taking the mick, I can tell :)

I think it's true to say it's one of the more challenging moves in the intermediate armoury to do well.
To do it well requires quite subtle weight shifts and the footwork is crucial to leading it well (to get those weight shifts, and is not usually taught and it's importance underrated. Usual beginner leader error is to not move the feet/shift the weight and just twist the torso too much, not only is that uncomfortable for leader and follower, that does look horrible).
If you don't control your torso twists and shoulders (or inner frame as a famous forum owner said recently? :)) and have what I can only describe as at least a reasonably adaptive grip, light'ish and flexible (for the grip changes during the move, and for the safety aspect), well, your up poo'street without a paddle, and in the worse cases, so is your follower.

When it's done well, nice and flowing, it looks and feels as good as trillions of other moves. 'Done well' is the operative phrase of course :)

[Clueless]

I like the pretzel but there are 2 other moves I know of that start like the pretzel one is just for banter.

You signal for it but you take your hand away and put yourself in a half nelson and stick your tongue out at the parter, obviously in banter terms!

[Gav]

I don't lead pretzels anymore because I can't be bothered trying to remember who loves them and who hates them.

FWIW, I did know a few ladies that loved them and couldn't understand why no-one seems to lead them. :rolleyes:

[Astro]

I don't lead pretzels anymore because I can't be bothered trying to remember who loves them and who hates them.

FWIW, I did know a few ladies that loved them and couldn't understand why no-one seems to lead them. :rolleyes:

If she misses the start of the pretzel twice, definately assume she is doing it accidently on purpose.

[rubyred]

:flower: I have taken to trying out leading recently, at the moment only doing beginners moves, but have had some probs with the Pretzel. Like everything that is difficult for my brain to adjust to I know I will overcome it eventually, because I am determined like that, but it is so hard to think about the pretzel. For some reason it just foxes me. Anyway I think there is so much you can do with the Pretzel, like double it, teble it, cheeky wiggles, ........... I am trying hard to overcome my blindspot to the move and will be appearing at a venue near you soon,BUT only doing beginners moves at the moment :blush: Please encourage me to do the pretzel, thank you :flower:

[Whitebeard]

If she misses the start of the pretzel twice, definately assume she is doing it accidently on purpose.

I naturally come out of the (is it?) 'Step Across' with my right arm firmly hammerlocked into position in the small of my back and requiring conscious effort to restore to freedom. This is part of the natural flow of the dance, and not an artifice, or in any way one of those dreaded and deplored 'Signals'. Nevertheless, it is an invitation to the follower, the consequences of which, I view with some trepidation as I have not fully, or even mostly, mastered the dynamics of this move.

(By the way, this is one of the few intermediate moves slowly being incorporatd into my freestlye portfolio. Which doesn't speak wonders for the Ceroc teaching model as it pertains to me.)

[Gav]

If she misses the start of the pretzel twice, definately assume she is doing it accidently on purpose.

I'll just stick with not bothering thanks. After all, it's only a move and not a particularly stunning one either.

[David Bailey]

Well, if you have to do the pretzel, then the best tips I can think of for men are:
- Mind your arms: mnake sure don't bang the lady with your arms or your elbows. Take your time over the movement, and allow plenty of time and space for it.
- Don't move your feet: Simon Borland teaches this version quite well; it's basically minimalist movement from the guy. The guy simply needs to twist as appropriate to permit the motion.

It's still a silly move though.

[TA Guy]

- Don't move your feet: Simon Borland teaches this version quite well; it's basically minimalist movement from the guy. The guy simply needs to twist as appropriate to permit the motion.



FEI.
Heres a clip of Simon Borland on YouTube doing some pretzel related moves. (I.E. Variations, but the basic pretzel pattern is there). Watch his feet. His footwork is more or less spot on IMO.
YouTube - Jive Nation at Hippodrome Intermediate lesson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7GtoCm9jOA)

I'm sure he does a great non-moving-feet version (never seen it tho, so can't really comment), but I can think of several reasons why you should move your feet, otherwise... A) not moving your feet would compress the space making accidents more likely and B) not moving your feet almost certainly prohibits the necessary weight shift which hinders the flow and makes leading the partner harder and prolly contributes to some of those arm straining problems and C) in my very subjective opinion, it looks terrible, just waving your arms in the air.

[Clueless]

I try and keep Movement as minimal as possible. Though I do weight shift at appropriate times of the move the ease it for the lady