Its offical - ladies can lead a break! [Archive]

Fran

22nd-June-2003, 05:30 PM

Just come back form a "fabby" work shop in Aberdeen with Adam and Mandy-. I think it is safe to say that all who attended had a great time and Adam and Mandy were excellent.

One of the hightlights was the section on breaks when Adam discussed the appropriateness of ladies leading a break if the man with whom she is dancing misses them. There was a very logical explanation given - which to sum it up was that the men are concentrating on moves, what comes next etc, that it is understandable if the build up to potential breaks are missed. Ladies however do have more time to anticipate the breaks coming as they liten to the music. The proof of the pudding was when he reversed the roles and all ladies breaked in time to the music with out fail!!!!!!!

:nice:

fran.

Andy McGregor

22nd-June-2003, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Fran
One of the hightlights was the section on breaks when Adam discussed the appropriateness of ladies leading a break if the man with whom she is dancing misses them. There was a very logical explanation given - which to sum it up was that the men are concentrating on moves, what comes next etc, that it is understandable if the build up to potential breaks are missed. Ladies however do have more time to anticipate the breaks coming as they liten to the music. The proof of the pudding was when he reversed the roles and all ladies breaked in time to the music with out fail!!!!!!!

:nice:

fran.

I've found that when I'm dancing the followers part with another man it's amost essential to lead the break - unless you want to sail straight through it as if it wasn't there at all! There seems to be an alternative school of thought that goes 'I'll bet I can extrapolate from this break in the music until the next time the beat kicks in'. Or so it seems when you're being led. It's a bit like the DJ at a wedding who gets everyone to sing along to something like Summer Loving and then cuts the music out before the chorus so he can hear his brainwashed audience sing without the music. Then when he brings the music up you're always singing in the wrong place. Like any right thinking dancer I blame the dj.:devil:

Personally, I think that you always need to do something with the breaks. And it doesn't always have to be playing statues, it just needs to be dramatic or, as it's me, comedic - like the kick in the goolies given to the Tramp with dramatic/comedic/paramedic requiring effect at this years Blackpool champs!

Of course, the last thing you should ever do with a break is behave as if it wasn't there. It's like ignoring a Give-Way sign and driving out into traffic. There are many songs that have breaks and there are break-free versions of well known songs that usually have breaks that djs use to try and trick us.:devil: The only thing to do is to put the breaks in where they should be - although this does make your partners think you're mental. Which in my case just gives the game away a bit earlier than usual...

...and of course, the dj is, as always, to blame! :devil:

Dance Demon

22nd-June-2003, 07:51 PM

Tiggerbabe

22nd-June-2003, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Fran
Just come back form a "fabby" work shop in Aberdeen with Adam and Mandy-. I think it is safe to say that all who attended had a great time and Adam and Mandy were excellent.

Absolutely Fran! Adam and Mandy were fantastic - the Saturday "Dirty Dancing" workshop was brilliant and so many fabulous moves :drool: :drool: Today's "musical interpretation" certainly sent us all away with plenty to think about - what an "awesome" weekend it's been :D (isn't that right Niall?)

Well done Franck for asking them to come up and teach :hug:

And I totally agree Fran, great to have the "teacher's" approval on leading the breaks :wink:

Jayne

23rd-June-2003, 11:05 AM

Just wanted to echo what's already been said - two great days of workshops, particularly Sunday's.

Quick question - who does that "body to body" song??? It's been going round my head ever since the workshop...

Cheers,
Jayne
:nice:

Franck

23rd-June-2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Jayne
Quick question - who does that "body to body" song??? It's been going round my head ever since the workshop... Yes, brilliant workshops and some fabulous music!

The 'body to body' song is called Body 2 body, by Samantha Mumba...

It's available on Amazon on the "Gotta Tell You" album by Samantha Mumba.

Cheers,

Franck.

spindr

23rd-June-2003, 01:10 PM

Hmmm, not really sure what you mean here by "leading a break" --- are we back to "playing statues" again? Is it ok for the leader to sabotage/hijack a lead from a follower?

Ok, I'll admit, my musicality has really sucked in the past -- but what helped wasn't followers forcing me into breaks -- it was the fact that they *let me know* that I had missed one.

Now, that I've got so that I can hear (some of) the breaks --- I can use a number of different options to highlight them (or hesitations, or whatever).
If I'm (back-)led into a freeze, then that's going to limit things considerably.

So, if the leader's "receptive to encouragement" it'd be good for the follower to indicate that there *was* a break.

Personally, I'd really prefer that followers don't backlead me into a freeze, but that they should feel free to let me know if they think I've failed to lead something appropriate to a break.

Neil.

Dreadful Scathe

23rd-June-2003, 01:14 PM

but if the lady does lead you into a break ..should you have a kit kat? :)

Fran

23rd-June-2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Enjoyed our wee dance at the end:waycool:

thankyou, I really enjoyed it to, it was a great way to end the weekend. looking forward to catching you at the end of the month party for another. :nice: I will be assertive and ask! :wink:

fran:nice:

Gadget

23rd-June-2003, 02:44 PM

OK, I missed the Sunday workshop, but just so that we're all talking about the same thing...

- What is a 'break' ?
Is it an instramental twiddly bit (for want of a better term)? Is it the gap between a verse and chorus? Is it where the tune 'pads' out with nothing much? Is it where the beat stops for a beat (you know what I mean)... :confused:

- Why should the dance outline these parts of the song?
because it fits better? because the music has let you? Because everyone else does?

- What is it that the best instructors recommended for breaks ?
Playing 'statues' and wiggling a bit (Posing)? a dip/drop/lean/seducer? somthing dramatic?

Personally I prefer a flowing style of dance, so I agree with spindr when he winces at the 'statues' idea - I am unsure of the technical 'feel' of how a lady could lead a break; someone will have to show me on Tuesday before I can comment.

Sal

23rd-June-2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by spindr
Hmmm, not really sure what you mean here by "leading a break" --- are we back to "playing statues" again? Is it ok for the leader to sabotage/hijack a lead from a follower?

If I'm (back-)led into a freeze, then that's going to limit things considerably.

Personally, I'd really prefer that followers don't backlead me into a freeze, but that they should feel free to let me know if they think I've failed to lead something appropriate to a break.

Some guys get so threatened by a woman taking initiative!

We were taught the proper way to help the lead rather than hijacking it. We will not interupt in the middle of complicated moves, just if we feel it is appropriate at that moment. You may be surprised to note that the followers don't want to upset the flow/musicality of a dance.

We were also shown musical statues are not the only things to do, we can be surprisingly inventive.

Many of the men on the course found it a help, as they could concentrate on other aspects of the dance and leave this one to us. Maybe you should try it before knocking it.

Bill

23rd-June-2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by Gadget

- What is it that the best instructors recommended for breaks ?
Playing 'statues' and wiggling a bit (Posing)? a dip/drop/lean/seducer? somthing dramatic?

Personally I prefer a flowing style of dance, so I agree with spindr when he winces at the 'statues' idea - I am unsure of the technical 'feel' of how a lady could lead a break; someone will have to show me on Tuesday before I can comment.

Well Adam was saying that you don't have to be a statue ...and very often a long break can look pretty stupid and gave several excellent examples of different 'breaks' to which we could improvise.

Pausing for a second in an appropriate move can look great and very dramatic but to other breaks or changes just altering the pace and slowing down can be equally effective. But if the music stops even ofr a second it's a bit of a clue that the dancers should as well. The point made at the workshop was that the only time everyone stopped at a break was when the women were leading :rolleyes:

I have a to agree that the women can do this better ( on the whole...for reasons explained at the ws) and many men are too busy thinking of the next move ( or sequence) to listen to either the words or the music properly and the dance becomes nothing more than just a number of moves..........yes I know that's what it is anyway but there's no interaction with a partner or the music just moves. And this is understandable when we all start dancing but more experienced men know plenty of moves so could now easily start playing around with the music and the words and dance with their partners.

Anyway, that's what I took from the Sunday workshop. My problem ( amongst others) is I can't always hear the words so can't make any attempt to interpret them. Maybe need to read all the words first :sorry

Dance Demon

23rd-June-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Fran
:nice: I will be assertive and ask! :wink:

fran:nice:

Maybe I should just be a gentleman and ask you first:wink: :hug:

DavidB

23rd-June-2003, 07:02 PM

I wasn't at the workshop, so this is based on what people have said in this thread.

I think the argument goes that ladies have far less to think about in a dance, so they should be able to listen to the music more. Could someone explain to me then why so few women seem listen to the music? Or is it that so few men listen either, so what is the point?

For various reasons it is difficult in Modern Jive to lead the lady into a break. It is a lot easier when she knows it is coming. (I have a feeling that the success of 'hitting the breaks' when the lady is backleading is partly due to this.) Listening to the music should be encouraged for both the man and the lady.

I was taught not to keep doing moves that the lady doesn't like. eg if she doesn't like improvising, then don't force it. If she doesn't like spinning, then don't spin her (the exception is when Gus is following - he needs the practice!) The leader has this choice, the follower doesn't. So if the ladies start hijacking the lead like this, they should aim to be considerate as well - if your man doesn't like it, then don't keep doing it.

It is nice to see people getting away from the Madame Tussauds look when a break happens. Hopefully the next stage is to start interpreting the 95% of the song that has music, and not just the 5% of silence.

But it is even nicer to have people 'thinking' after a workshop, and not just trying to 'remember' a move. That sounds like a good workshop.

David

Dance Demon

23rd-June-2003, 08:17 PM

personally(without getting into the big"leader -follower" debate:wink: ) I think it's cool to hit the breaks in a piece of music, and if led well the follower should have no option but to follow suit. However the point that Adam was making in the workshop was that if a record has a lot of breaks, you don't have to hit them all, and they dont all have to be "statues". If a song has a definite break, where no music is heard for a few beats, why do people continue to dance to silence? That would suggest that they are not listening to the music that they are dancing to, or are just going through the motions, and not bothering to interpret it.

And yes it was a great workshop.....probably one of the best that I have attended, and it made me rethink my whole approach to dancing to different styles and speeds of music:waycool:

Fran

23rd-June-2003, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Maybe I should just be a gentleman and ask you first:wink: :hug:

that would be lovely. :nice: :cheers: I have never been any good at the asking bit, not because I dont want to at all. I am just not all that confident about it.

I did'nt intend to laydown a gaunlet for femisim on the dance floor when I started this thread. I love being lead, I like being a girl - it a nice change from doing wood & metal work most days.
As people who were on the workshop have said, the description which Adam and Mandy gave of why and when it was appropriate for a woman to "lead" a break occasionaly in a dance was very well put and recieved, and that it did not mean playing musical statues. Although I am sorry to the man whoes arm I may have hurt in the process!!!::innocent: :innocent: wink: I was just feeling liberated!!:wink:

fran

spindr

23rd-June-2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Sal
Some guys get so threatened by a woman taking initiative!

I love the woman taking the initiative; in fact I often lead a comb and just let the lady have some personal time to improvise (try it chaps, it's usually has an interesting effect).

help[/U] the lead rather than hijacking it.

Ah, I think you mis-read it --- I expect the lady to improvise, hijack and sabotage me! Similarly, I expect to be able to return the compliment and be allowed to sabotage the follower's sabotage, etc.

We will not interupt in the middle of complicated moves, just if we feel it is appropriate at that moment. You may be surprised to note that the followers don't want to upset the flow/musicality of a dance.

Sounds reasonable...

We were also shown musical statues are not the only things to do, we can be surprisingly inventive.

...sounds very reasonable ;)

Many of the men on the course found it a help, as they could concentrate on other aspects of the dance and leave this one to us. Maybe you should try it before knocking it.

I think as a leader it might be a bit too tempting to be lazy and rely on the follower --- which is fine if you've both done the course.

Neil.

Bill

24th-June-2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
For various reasons it is difficult in Modern Jive to lead the lady into a break. It is a lot easier when she knows it is coming.

But it is even nicer to have people 'thinking' after a workshop, and not just trying to 'remember' a move. That sounds like a good workshop.It was a great workshop David...... best I've been on for a while and very productive.

I was going to disagree with the comment about being difficult to lead a woman into a break but yes it obvioulsy helps if she recognises the track or if she is quite experienced herself.

Probably because I break or slow down quite frequently a lot of the women up here are now used to it so they don't seem to find it a problem. But as folk are saying it wasn't about doing nothing during a break or change to the song but continuing to think about the music as there may be a counter beat ( no idea if that is a 'real' term). But the whole idea of finding the half beat ( to things like Mambo No 5) or doubling the beat to slower tracks to vary the tempo and rythm within one song was great to hear and hopefully will have a positive effect on everyone's dancing.

It certainly made me think even more about interpretation and 'feeling' the song and listening even more closely to the lyrics.

Grant

24th-June-2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Bill
It was a great workshop David...... best I've been on for a while and very productive.
I have only been on a few workshops but I have to agree that this one was great. There has been so much talk on this forum about musical interpretation but the workshop made it much clearer for me. I tried out a few of the ideas last night. My Matrix impressions (slow motion) seemed to work and I actually tried to interpret the lyrics which was a new concept for me. Other ideas from the workshop were more difficult to implement but at least I know what I need to work on.

It certainly made me think
It certainly did that to me as well. Which was not easy on Sunday after a couple of late nights!

Grant

Wendy

24th-June-2003, 05:47 PM

:tears: :tears: :tears:

Haven't been on here for weeks and here I am crying my eyes out !!! I sooo wanted to go to Aberdeen this weekend !!! And it sounds like the workshops were fab !!! Any of you guys who want to practise your new skills..... well, you know where I am....

Wxxx

John S

24th-June-2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Wendy
Haven't been on here for weeks
Presumably you were leading an extended break????

Anyway, you've been missed - welcome back.
:hug:

Dance Demon

24th-June-2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by Wendy
:tears: :tears: :tears:

Haven't been on here for weeks and here I am crying my eyes out !!! I sooo wanted to go to Aberdeen this weekend !!! And it sounds like the workshops were fab !!! Any of you guys who want to practise your new skills..... well, you know where I am....

Wxxx

How can we refuse an offer like that Wendy:drool: will practice my new skills next time i see you........and maybe some of the old ones as well:wink: :hug:

Wendy

24th-June-2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by John S
Presumably you were leading an extended break????

Yes... it was Santana !

:hug:

Wxxx

Wendy

24th-June-2003, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Will practise my new skills next time I see you........and maybe some of the old ones as wellWell, the old ones were pretty good on Friday !!! So add the new ones and you could be BTC before the end of the year DD!!!

Wxxxx

PS So pretty please Franck !!! :wink: Any chance of a rerun of these workshops some time soon ???

Girls can lead breaks ! Girls can lead breaks ! tra la la la laa ....

Bill

25th-June-2003, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Wendy
PS So pretty please Franck !!! :wink: Any chance of a rerun of these workshops some time soon ???

Girls can lead breaks ! Girls can lead breaks ! tra la la la laa ....

As far as I know they may be back pretty soon Wendy and if they are grab a ticket quick. You'd have loved the workshops- especially the UCAP one on Saturday :D :wink:

And if you want to lead me I'll do my best to follow :na: :innocent:

Franck

25th-June-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Bill
As far as I know they may be back pretty soon Wendy and if they are grab a ticket quick.Indeed they are... Following the success of last week-end, I have invited Adam to teach again and he will part of the line up of teachers for the August Perth Extravaganza :D :waycool:

Watch this space!

Franck.

Brady

25th-June-2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Bill
But the whole idea of finding the half beat ( to things like Mambo No 5) or doubling the beat to slower tracks to vary the tempo and rythm within one song was great to hear and hopefully will have a positive effect on everyone's dancing.

Just read through this thread and was interested to hear that the concept of speeding up or slowing down of moves was covered at this workshop. I have done a lot of this in recent workshops with Deb & Ben, Nicky & Robert, and Amir (all Aussie or New Zealand natives), but have yet to hear this from a British teacher. It is a fantastic concept, but one I've found hard to lead as a result of the concept never being presented in the regular Ceroc classes.

Amir's musicality workshop is one of the best I've been to and covered all this and more, including adding wee pulses in the middle of a move, listening to and dancing to specific instruments or beat patterns within the music, etc. Amir is booked to visit Scotland in mid September to do some teaching, so keep your eyes posted on this forum for more info!

Brady

Dreadful Scathe

25th-June-2003, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Brady
[ the concept of ] slowing down of moves was covered at this workshop.

Gilberts been doing this for years :)

25th-June-2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Gilberts been doing this for years :)

Yeah, but he IS the man...:wink:

SallyB

25th-June-2003, 04:15 PM

Does anyone know when Adam & Mandy will be doing this w/s again?

I have been to Amirs classes and workshops, yes his musicality workshop is great, but I have been on one of Adams workshops albeit three years ago and thought then that his teaching style was brilliant, very clear, witty and I was probably inspired then to carry on ceroc.

Also why do they not do more appearances they just seem to dissappear, or be kept under cover. Maybe I am wrong but I do not recall Adam & Mandy ever having taught at Camber?? Or even the main London venues.

I am spreading the word that girls can lead. Think I upset a guy last night when he just stared at me. It was like he was dancing to a car radio playing outside! Any tips girls?

Sounds like Scotland is where it is all at. Do people from London come up for your events?

Sally

Bill

25th-June-2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by SallyB
Does anyone know when Adam & Mandy will be doing this w/s again?

Sounds like Scotland is where it is all at. Do people from London come up for your events?

Sally See Franck's comment about the Perth weekend in August !

Some of us try to get to London when we can but a few of you sothern types do manage to break free from London and make it over the border. :D :wink:

Not many Londoners but we do now get a few dancers from the 'North' eg Newcastle, Manchester etc.. and a friendly bunch they are :na:

We're always happy to extend a welcome but be wary of the Dundee mad crew. Mix with them at your own peril :rolleyes: A few have visited but very few have ever been the same afterwards !!!!!

You can spend a whole week dancing up here now with Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Perth to choose from. Hope to see you up here sometime Sally.

Dance Demon

25th-June-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by SallyB

Also why do they not do more appearances they just seem to dissappear, or be kept under cover. Maybe I am wrong but I do not recall Adam & Mandy ever having taught at Camber?? Or even the main London venues. I would check out the Perth weekend Sally, as Adam mentioned that he and Mandy were going off to live in New Zealand, so their appearances over here are going to be few and far between. This would be a good chance to get on one of their rare workshops:waycool:

Sandy

25th-June-2003, 06:11 PM

After the wonderful workshops at the weekend I just couldn't wait for the Aberdeen Tuesday class to try out THOSE moves:drool: Yep it was absolutely fantastic and thanks guys for those dances! and Lisa kept the mood going and gave us the opportunity to get UCP with the steps for the night and oh boy was it good!

The breaks!!! I danced with a few guys who had been on the weekend workshops and wow the moves were brill and the breaks were there, fantastic! Then there was the guy who hadn't been on the workshop!:tears: battle of wits! On hearing the break I stiffened my arm and was determined that he should be aware of the break...........em no! it was a battle of wills as to who would give in. I could see his mind ticking over - "I'm the guy and I'm leading, what the hell is she doing?"! Almost said didn't you hear the break but thought maybe the word would get round that I was a right bossy bitch and no more dances for me!! The long and the short of this is that the workshop definitely made me listen so much more carefully and think I will be a better dance for it. I'm now away to do exercises for the arms!!!:wink:

Sandy

DavidB

25th-June-2003, 06:50 PM

Heather

25th-June-2003, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by Bill

We're always happy to extend a welcome but be wary of the Dundee mad crew. Mix with them at your own peril :rolleyes: A few have visited but very few have ever been the same afterwards !!!!!

:D :D Don't you mean 'very few have been SANE afterwards!!!!'
Don't pay any attention to him Sally, you'll end up slightly MAd but you will get the warmest welcome in Scotland, we are a VERY friendly bunch here in Dundee.:hug:

:kiss: :hug:
Heather,
xx

David Franklin

25th-June-2003, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Sandy
On hearing the break I stiffened my arm and was determined that he should be aware of the break...........em no! it was a battle of wills as to who would give in. I could see his mind ticking over - "I'm the guy and I'm leading, what the hell is she doing?"!
Originally posted by DavidB
Ladies - I'm sorry, but if you start "stiffening your arms" in an attempt to backlead the break, you are going to get hurt.

...most men are big enough and strong enough to do serious damage to your shoulder without even realising it.
The thing is, both sides need to be listening through the connection (and responding!) with something like this. If I lead something, and there's a lot of resistance, I assume there's a reason, and I don't just use brute strength to force things. If you're going to backlead, you should do the same. There really shouldn't be any "battle of wills" here.

I'm not saying stiffening the arm etc... is necessarily bad, but you do need to be aware of whether your partner is responding. The times I've been backlead successfully, it's been by someone who's careful to 'prelead' the break. In other words, they stiffen up enough before the break that I know they want to do something. Usually, I'll try to lighten the connection to "set them free". If I don't (maybe I missed the change), they don't force the issue. Not much force is involved.

Another thing - I was pondering the "women find it easier to hit the break" comment. Ignoring the whole "hearing the break" thing, I think there's a quite practical difference between the lead and follow sides of the dance. Basically, the follow moves a lot more than the lead. There are lots of times when it's hard for the man to lead a break, because the woman is moving with a fair bit of momentum, and he can't really stop her without using a lot of force. It's much easier for the woman to stop herself.

What's the relevance to injury? Well, when the men do move, it's often with way more momentum than the women, and as they're leading, you might not know they're about to spring into a RH-archie or double manspin. If you try to "force" the backlead at that point, you really are going to get hurt.

I'm not sure if there are safe ways for a woman to "force" a man to "get" the break if he's oblivious to the music. The one thing that springs to mind is that from a R-L or L-R hold (1 handed), you could hold him above the wrist with your free hand. It feels it would be very hard to lead anything from there, so he'd more or less have to give in I think!

Dave

TheTramp

25th-June-2003, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by David Franklin
The thing is, both sides need to be listening through the connection (and responding!) with something like this. If I lead something, and there's a lot of resistance, I assume there's a reason, and I don't just use brute strength to force things. If you're going to backlead, you should do the same. There really shouldn't be any "battle of wills" here.

I'm not saying stiffening the arm etc... is necessarily bad, but you do need to be aware of whether your partner is responding. The times I've been backlead successfully, it's been by someone who's careful to 'prelead' the break. In other words, they stiffen up enough before the break that I know they want to do something. Usually, I'll try to lighten the connection to "set them free". If I don't (maybe I missed the change), they don't force the issue. Not much force is involved.I think that the point that DavidB was making David F (too many Davids around here?), is that sure, you'll feel the backlead, and respond. But as said, you're probably going to hit the break anyhow. It's the other 97% of men that are being discussed here. Who won't hit the break, and could do some damage to the lady (been there, seen that done).

So, ladies, I'd suggest booking in for several sessions down the gym. And when you can lift Franck, one handed, above your heads, then go for it.

Before that, just be very careful. Although, I am an advocate of trying it. Maybe you can educate the guy into what a break is, he can pass on that knowledge to all the ladies that he dances with, and then the world will be a better place. :D

Steve

TheTramp

25th-June-2003, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by SallyB
Sounds like Scotland is where it is all at. Do people from London come up for your events?Sally Ummm. Yes :D

And once you've got them, they can't get away!!!

Steve

bigdjiver

25th-June-2003, 11:58 PM

I have tried a pre-arranged signal with a few partners for a break, I lift the hand up about and inch, then back down again, rapidly, on the beat before, and repeat on the break beat. It worked O.K. with one or two. I do not dance regularly enough with anybody to get a proper understanding, or do enough breaks to give it a proper trial. It occurs to me that the woman could use this signal too. If anybody tries it please report back.

cerocmetro

26th-June-2003, 01:35 AM

I thought I should just post a reply for the record and clear a few things up before this gets messy.

In the workshop, we demonstrated that the girls were very aware of what is going on in the music. Quite often they are more switched on than the guys, especially the more intermediate guys who are sweating making sure they are staying on the beat and thinking up some outrageously and unnecessarily complicated moves.

We did this by letting the girls lead the breaks and of course in the workshops all the guys were expecting it and ready for it.

I agree with DaveB that it could be dangerous for the girls to just pull their partners and try and stop them and I would not recommend it.

What I would recommend the girls do is to change their style, tempo, stance where the breaks would be, maybe instead of a return and stepping straight back, be returned and then do some pivoting, shimmying or something else that emphasises the break, lets your partner know you know what breaks are. If he does not understand what you are doing, then provided it fits in with what is going on with the moves, you enjoy the emphasis anyway and you ultimately teach your partner that at times it is OK to play with the moves and timing. To stop someone in full flow takes a huge amount of strength and something is almost certain to give.

Where a girl can lead a break in complete safety is when she has been released from the mans grasp, eg a spin. Some girls have a wonderful way of changing the speed of a spin mid flow, bring it to a beautiful sweep of a leg as the break arrives and the man is left in awe of this work of art.

If he just looks at you and wonders what you are doing, just smile back. (You had to be there).

Sally coming back to your point, if you are serious about "spreading the word.." we could be changing the whole balance of lead and follow. I would not like to be held personally responsible for blood being spilled on the dance floor over who is leading who. The floor would become sticky and awkward for the other dancers.

About the workshop, it appears to have been such a success in Aberdeen, we have decided to run it in London, well just east of London in July. If you would like more details please just drop me an email ceroc@hotmail.com

The reason we have never taught at Camber etc, we have never been asked.

As regards shifting to NZ, yes this is true, but not until November 2004. When we do move, we will ironically have more time for workshops, we will be back every 12 weeks.

Finally I would like to say that we had such a brilliant time in Aberdeen. We have never been made to feel so welcome and loved every minute of it. We were very impressed at the standard of the dancing. All credit to a great bunch of teachers and crew.

Sorry for this long posting but thought I'd get everything out the way in one go.

Adam

Gary

26th-June-2003, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by cerocmetro

Sally coming back to your point, if you are serious about "spreading the word.." we could be changing the whole balance of lead and follow.

I think I read somewhere something along the lines of "a good leader indicates a move, then follows the follower", a Zen-ish thing that I've been trying to internalise. I think I'm getting better at responding to what the follow is doing, rather than assuming that I'm just "running the show"

As regards shifting to NZ, yes this is true, but not until November 2004. When we do move, we will ironically have more time for workshops, we will be back every 12 weeks.

It's not that far from NZ to Sydney *hint* *hint*

Brady

26th-June-2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I have tried a pre-arranged signal with a few partners for a break, I lift the hand up about and inch, then back down again, rapidly, on the beat before, and repeat on the break beat. It worked O.K. with one or two.

Going completely against what you are taught as a beginner at Ceroc, another option that can work quite effectively to lead either a break or a slow down of the tempo of your dance is a small bit of pressure with your thumbs on the follows hands. This will hopefully signal to her that something different is about to happen (that is if you hadn't already been using your thumbs :really: ). This is obviously not taught to beginners to avoid the crushing of knuckles, etc., but as we become more experienced, we should be able to use these options effectively and safely.

Sal

26th-June-2003, 09:57 AM

I am afraid that I was not brave enought to try backleading a break with anyone who was not on the workshop. I was working on the principle that at least the guys from the workshop would have an idea of what I was up to. I have found that placing a thumb on the back of the guys hand is such an odd sensation, that they stop immediately.

However, I also found that the guys were finding the breaks of their own accord, and interpreting the music beautifully. I think that the workshope has really made an impression - keep it up guys, it was brill!

Franck

26th-June-2003, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Brady
This will hopefully signal to her that something different is about to happen (that is if you hadn't already been using your thumbs :really: ). This is the crucial part, and this subject was discussed before, the best way to lead your partner into a break, or a walk etc... is to have a very light lead the rest of the time. The more subtle your hand hold / lead is the more your partner becomes aware of the slightest change in pressure or direction.
In fact, using your thumb is a very crude (but effective :wink: )way of stopping your partner, often taught in the side to side freeze. Ideally your lead should be so subtle normally that the slightest pressure inside the hand will be enough!
This also assumes that your partner is a good dancer and isn't relying on you for balance or momentum, as in that case, most of your energies will be diverted from leading to keeping your partner upright!

As for ladies leading the breaks and the changes, I'm all for it, Adam did a great job of explaining the mechanics of it, and many women are very good at suggesting style during the dance. I reckon everyone benefits from a more stylish / involved dance. However, as many women will know, not all men lead equally, and so it will be for women hi-jacking the lead... If women want to start leading, they should read all they can about the necessary technique, and possibly learn to lead during the classes as well... Timing and subtlety are king! :nice:
I really like gcapell's quote, nobody should be forcing anything on anybody... :D

Really glad the debate is building up, the more we think and experiment, the better we all get! :waycool:

Franck.

Deb

26th-June-2003, 02:54 PM

It was pointed out to me today that I haven't made a post on the forum for a few weeks so I had better get my act together and write something, so what better a topic could i get my teeth into than this.

First of all I wish I was still in the UK so I could attend the workshop in July. Actually, one of our Le Boppers will be there at the end of July.. what date will it be?

2nd, when you come to NZ you had better stop by Melbourne on the way.

3rd, One of my favourite things about partner dancing is the connection between partners. Sometimes you have great dances with people because you really connect with them for one reason or another and other times it's not so great. I think that if you have a good connection with someone it is great if you can PLAY to the song and react to eachother's impulses. If you don't connect then it is probably not the right time or person to PLAY with otherwise you will end up in a tug-of-war (not fun).

I think that both people can PLAY, either partner can instigate the fun but like in any other situation if one doesn't like it, don't do it.

Deb

Sandy

26th-June-2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. Yes :D

And once you've got them, they can't get away!!!

Steve

How many weeks is it now Steve till you come up to sunny Aberdeen???

I promise not to break your arm:devil: :wink:

Sandy

Sandy

26th-June-2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by cerocmetro

Finally I would like to say that we had such a brilliant time in Aberdeen. We have never been made to feel so welcome and loved every minute of it.

Adam

It was a brilliant weekend, full of admiration for Mandy who at 5 months (?) pregnant managed to last all day Saturday, Saturday night and all day Sunday and was still on two feet at the end. I was totally shattered and don't remember the drive home!

Sandy

DavidY

27th-June-2003, 10:12 PM

I'd love to go on a workshop about breaks & am sorry I couldn't go on this one because it's something I'd really like to improve.

If I know the tune, I can usually spot a break coming and know when it happens, but the thing I find tricky is making sure I'm not in the middle of something too complicated on the beat when the break 'arrives'.

I'm not clever enough to work out how many beats I have before a break & how many beats each move will take - I try to work it out & usually miscalculate and find that I'm doing something stupid like passing back to back in the middle of a Pretzel at the crucial instant :sorry - and I have no idea how to 'break' there (or even how someone would lead me into one.)

How do people get this right? Are other people cleverer than me at working the timing out? Or can you just 'break' in the middle of any move whatsoever? :confused::confused:

Thanks,
David

Franck

27th-June-2003, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by DavidY
If I know the tune, I can usually spot a break coming and know when it happens, but the thing I find tricky is making sure I'm not in the middle of something too complicated on the beat when the break 'arrives'.Nothing 'clever' about it David, but it does involve a bit of practise and many 'missed' breaks... :nice:

One of the main lesson to take away, is that it's ok to fit a few very simple moves in your dancing, you don't have to dance pretzels and double hatchflick catapults all the time... Give yourself (and your partner) a break and do manspins, armjives, first moves etc... This will give you more time to think, and if necessary the opportunity to extend one of the above moves so that you can hit the break, or the phrase in the music or whatever else with the move, position of your choice...
To start with, you might find that you end up doing a very long Armjive prior to a break you know is coming, but with practise and confidence, you'll get quite good at it! :D

Cheers and good luck,

Franck.

Gadget

27th-June-2003, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by DavidY
How do people get this right? Are other people cleverer than me at working the timing out? Or can you just 'break' in the middle of any move whatsoever?
{damn browser just crashed!!}

First; I am not claiming that I get this right all the time. (or even most of the time :sad: )

In summary, I think that you need to be flexable in your moves; if a break comes in the middle of a move you can...
- panic and rush the move, then try and use the remainder of the break for something (2/10)
- ignore it and finish the move (3/10)
- put the move on pause while you gyrate/pose for a few beats (4/10)
- discard the rest of the move and throw yourself into a dramatic pose to freeze/gyrate for a while (5/10)
- use the start of the break to 'bounce' into a reverse of how you got to that point in the move (6/10)
- elongate the rest of the move to take up the rest of the break (7/10)
- plant your self and turn the move into a seducer/dip/lean from where you are so that they rise to continue with the end of the break (8/10)
- turn the move into something else that matches the mood of the break (9/10)

I also think that it's to do with the way you think on moves as you dance - I'm lucky if I know what move we are in now let alone what move we will be in next. If you are thinking on the next move while doing one move it is a lot easier to derail the train of thought with an "Oh ****: BREAK!" interjection.

{BTW B2B in a pretzel is perfect; just take the 'free' hand lower to a flat handed hold with the other still in a half-nelson and stalk in a circle for a few beats... works for me. ;)}

Origionally posted by Franck
To start with, you might find that you end up doing a very long Armjive prior to a break you know is coming, but with practise and confidence, you'll get quite good at it!
yea! I'm really good at arm jives now!!! :devil:

Andy McGregor

28th-June-2003, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Franck
In fact, using your thumb is a very crude (but effective :wink: )way of stopping your partner, often taught in the side to side freeze. Ideally your lead should be so subtle normally that the slightest pressure inside the hand will be enough!

I find that rather than use your thumb on the back of the ladies hand (which is rather taboo as everyone says not to do it) you can more effectively use your forefinger - try it, it works. Athough the first time you do it your partner always looks at your finger as if it was being naughty!

I normally only use the forefinger if I'm going to hold my partner out there for a while and want her to wiggle or giggle or something to fit the music. For a brief pause you can lead it with a change in pressure and by not leading anything... ..and then leading something.

Jon

29th-June-2003, 12:42 PM

humm not quite sure how I could get my fore finger on top of the ladies hand in order to pause her, not quickly anyway.

I agree with Frank the thumb is the norm to indicate she should be pausing, although the thumb is not really needed if your a strong lead and dance with the same person alot. A pull down and locking of your hand/arm should be enough to tell her she's stopping.

Dreadful Scathe

29th-June-2003, 01:18 PM

I suggest wiring yourself up with a large battery so that mild electric shocks can be administered to the follower if they dont follow correctly. Also if they miss a subtle lead, reinforce it next time round with a few volts, they'll quickly learn.... and thank you for it later when it becomes automatic.

:what:

Sandy

29th-June-2003, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I suggest wiring yourself up with a large battery so that mild electric shocks can be administered

they'll quickly learn.... and thank you for it later when it becomes automatic.

:what:

DS, you been using the "Rabbit"?????

:devil: :wink:

Sandy

Chicklet

30th-June-2003, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Sandy
DS, you been using the "Rabbit"?????

:devil: :wink:

Sandy

:eek: :D

which possibility leads one to ask, where about your person (given that you are not known for wearing long sleeves) would the implement be secreted????????

cx

DavidB

30th-June-2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Jon
humm not quite sure how I could get my fore finger on top of the ladies hand in order to pause her, not quickly anyway. I usually dance with my forefinger down the side of the lady's hand. She would hook her fingers over my middle finger. This gives me a lot more communication in the lead without it getting too strong or moving too much. Some people call this a pistol grip.

From this grip it is really easy to slide my forefinger onto the top of the lady's fingers. I don't aim for the back of the hand - that can get painful. I would end up holding her knuckles. I dont squeeze - there is probably the same pressure as I would use to hold a phone. This is enough pressure to stop the majority of good followers. And those that miss the lead aren't going to get hurt.

(When I first started using this pistol grip, my middle finger really hurt for a while. It showed me just how much strain can be put on the hand without thinking about it.)

David

Sandy

1st-July-2003, 09:51 AM

Grant

1st-July-2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Sandy
yep Chicklet I wondered about that too???:devil: :wink:

Sandy
i'll bet you're thinking "Duracell bunny".

Grant

Jayne

1st-July-2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Grant
i'll bet you're thinking "Duracell bunny".

Grant

That wasn't the bunny I was thinking of....

J :what:

Graham

1st-July-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Jayne
That wasn't the bunny I was thinking of....

J :what: But the Duracell part's probably a good idea - I mean, you'd want one that went on....and on....and on.....and on.....

Don't you think? :devil: :wink:

Chicklet

1st-July-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Jayne
That wasn't the bunny I was thinking of....

J :what:

me neither.

Where's DS gone?? He needs to come back in here and sort out all the confusement he's caused!!!

Dreadful Scathe

1st-July-2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Chicklet

Where's DS gone?? He needs to come back in here and sort out all the confusement he's caused!!!

I only said a large battery, i didnt say it was of a size or shape that would necessitate it being secreted anywhere :what: instead of standard batteries ....ive invented the BatteryShirt tm - the whole shirt is a battery - just dont wear it in the shower...or..er..sweat. Theres a few quirks that need ironed out...not literally :)

Whats a rabbit ? :)

Andy McGregor

1st-July-2003, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
I usually dance with my forefinger down the side of the lady's hand. She would hook her fingers over my middle finger. This gives me a lot more communication in the lead without it getting too strong or moving too much. Some people call this a pistol grip.

From this grip it is really easy to slide my forefinger onto the top of the lady's fingers. I don't aim for the back of the hand - that can get painful. I would end up holding her knuckles. I dont squeeze - there is probably the same pressure as I would use to hold a phone. This is enough pressure to stop the majority of good followers. And those that miss the lead aren't going to get hurt.

(When I first started using this pistol grip, my middle finger really hurt for a while. It showed me just how much strain can be put on the hand without thinking about it.)

David

I do exactly what David says he does. I just couldn't describe it so eloquently. My forefinger is sort of poised most of the time to be placed on the ladies knuckles as required.

Bill

3rd-July-2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Chicklet
:eek: :D

which possibility leads one to ask, where about your person (given that you are not known for wearing long sleeves) would the implement be secreted????????

cx

ooooooh............... the temptation to say something :sick: :what: but I don't know what you're referring to anyway so I can't really comment. Don't rabbits hide away in nice dark burrows where they can be nice and snug and warm ?

Graham

3rd-July-2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Bill
ooooooh............... the temptation to say something :sick: :what: but I don't know what you're referring to anyway so I can't really comment. Don't rabbits hide away in nice dark burrows where they can be nice and snug and warm ? Amazingly, Bill manages to take the conversation to a whole new dimension of risquéness. :really:

Chicklet

3rd-July-2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Graham
Amazingly, Bill manages to take the conversation to a whole new dimension of risquéness. :really:

I'm bowing at the screen, it would seem that no-one can keep it up better than Bill these days.:D

Sir, have you taken to drawing rude things on the board when the students' backs are turned ??:rofl:

Bill

3rd-July-2003, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Chicklet
I'm bowing at the screen, it would seem that no-one can keep it up better than Bill these days.:D

Sir, have you taken to drawing rude things on the board when the students' backs are turned ??:rofl:

I don't know what you mean ! I have never kept a rabbit but I do know a few people who have and I know where they sleep and hide so what I said was simply factual !! I believe the ears are particularly sensitive when stroked.........but I don't know if they actually make any kind of sound when happy.

And as for drawing rude things on the board. Certainly not........... the students can't read my writing so wouldn't have a clue what any drawing might be !

Can't see how anyone could possibly interpret my comments as being risque !!!!!!!

Everyone who knows me knows I'm a sensitive and very innocent soul :innocent: :wink:

Fran

3rd-July-2003, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Bill

Everyone who knows me knows I'm a sensitive and very innocent soul :innocent: :wink:

yes to the sensitive.:wink:

and very fond of small animals :nice:

I am on my holidays now!!! broke up from school at 12.00 for 6 weeks -- Cant quite belive it!!:nice:

fran:cheers:

Dreadful Scathe

3rd-July-2003, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Fran
I am on my holidays now!!! broke up from school at 12.00 for 6 weeks -- Cant quite belive it!!:nice:

so you really didnt have a particular reason to post other than to rub it in that you're on holiday for 6 weeks ;)

3rd-July-2003, 02:24 PM

... but are we talking about Roger Rabbit, here?:D

Grant

3rd-July-2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
so you really didnt have a particular reason to post other than to rub it in that you're on holiday for 6 weeks ;)
i think Fran also managed to cast doubt on Bill's claim to be innocent :wink:

Grant

Bill

3rd-July-2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Fran
yes to the sensitive.:wink:

and very fond of small animals :nice:

fran:cheers:

:eek: :rolleyes: ................. but not THAT fond of them.......if you know what I mean :sick: .

I've never had a rabbit but I do have a neurotic pussy. :wink: ...called Murphy.

3rd-July-2003, 04:02 PM

Graham

3rd-July-2003, 04:08 PM

I've no idea - best ask Sandy - she seemed to know about these things :innocent:

Fran

3rd-July-2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Bill
:eek: :rolleyes: ................. but not THAT fond of them.......if you know what I mean :sick: .

I've never had a rabbit but I do have a neurotic pussy. :wink: ...called Murphy.

urmmmm, thats not quite what I meant. :sorry, :wink: personally I am quite pleased your affections are not full of "That" kind of fondness. I was merely meaning that you like animals.

Ceroc Jock wrote
B]So, you're saying your pussy and a rabbit shouldn't go together then?[/B]

well ......................better not go there, :what: but i used to have both, and the rabbit was definatley the boss. a free spirt who was'nt caged up and lived in the garden

[ B]DS wrote[/B]
so you really didnt have a particular reason to post other than to rub it in that you're on holiday for 6 weeks

no:innocent: its just great not to be watching the cloak and being able to brouse the forum without a guilty conseince. :nice:

franx

Sandy

6th-July-2003, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Graham
I've no idea - best ask Sandy - she seemed to know about these things :innocent:

Em just back from short holiday so will think about this Graham!!:wink:

Sandy

DianaS

4th-August-2004, 11:26 AM

I think the argument goes that ladies have far less to think about in a dance, so they should be able to listen to the music more. Could someone explain to me then why so few women seem listen to the music? Or is it that so few men listen either, so what is the point?

David
Hi David
This is a really old thread and you've probably moved on, but I've just come back from BB and did a search for breaks 'cas I SO enjoyed Nina and Nigels workshop. Last night I led some breaks it felt so cool when it went well but just a quicky in response to the above:-

often I find the music if it really absorbs me a distraction I follow the music instead of my partner which can bring me to lead. This isn't too much of a problem if its a regular partner and I've said I really like this track do you mind? and they facilitate the dance rather than lead it. Those guys are lovely they sort of understand how blocked I can feel when I'm not allowed just to go.
If its a guy who couldn't do that or I don't know well enough to ask then I have to turn off the music in my head to follow them cas otherwise I choreograph on the fly and it spoils the flow for them

DianaS

4th-August-2004, 11:33 AM

DianaS

4th-August-2004, 11:56 AM

Hello every one

[An aside to give context]
I'm still flying from BB went to my local venue last night and had a lovely time! I was so enthused still with Nigel and Nina's work on musicallity and leading breaks it was a toss up between getting on the dance floor and talking all night.

There was too much to talk about and how can you share a whole weeks work with your friends during the course of one evening? They must come too next time its official! Back to the thread

On topic
Within the workshops we discussed and experimented with how dancers can use movement to convey the phrases of music leading to breaks and the moment of a break itself. This was done quite simply through both partners looking away, and away, and away until the moment of a break then looking swiftly at each other and pausing just the head movement at the point of gaze. Even if just he woman did it it was very effective and gave the woman as much opportunity to convey the phrases as the man without having to backlead

Nina commented that an easy way to backlead a break was simply to say when there is a break coming up, the guy can then chose to lead it without being taken by surprise by a woman suddenly freezing stiffening or doing something else a little strange

The third method that I remember is when the woman is spun just before a break, she can spin till the point of a break (perhaps by slowing it down or spinning more than once) then to stop dramatically with both hands tucked behine the back (yes! wow, she looked so cool) and not to offer the hand until the break is over. Then the all important winning smile is offered to the partner to soften the moment when the break was made, and the lead returned to the guy by re-offering the hand.

For me those three methods were really useful and I was able to use then with some effect last night.

I didn't try the other method of squeezing the man's hand, lowering it and leading a break. I didn't feel that it would be appreciated, especially if I timed the break badly, but was wondering what other people's thoughts or experiences were?

Also, if anyone knows any other ways of backleading a break can you let me know 'cas a couple of guys noticed the changes in my movement last night and really appreciated it!

Perhaps they'd just missed me though, I'd really missed them!

Gordon J Pownall

4th-August-2004, 02:55 PM

.........a couple of guys noticed the changes in my movement last night and really appreciated it!

Perhaps they'd just missed me though, I'd really missed them!

We have so gotta dance - so often ladies can take the initiative and Nige and Nina, bless em, are so good at 'levelling the playing field so that ladies can have as much fun as the guys in musical interpretation.........

Sounds like great fun.....

DianaS

4th-August-2004, 04:34 PM

We have so gotta dance - so often ladies can take the initiative and Nige and Nina, bless em, are so good at 'levelling the playing field so that ladies can have as much fun as the guys in musical interpretation.........

Sounds like great fun.....
Hey Gordon that would be so cool..We're out in force at Hipsters on Friday
at a BB reunion bash (our toes are stilll tapping)
Be there, or square!
D

Gordon J Pownall

4th-August-2004, 04:42 PM

Hey Gordon that would be so cool..We're out in force at Hipsters on Friday
at a BB reunion bash (our toes are stilll tapping)
Be there, or square!
D

:tears:
 :tears:

Going to CerocMetro's JiveIn in Cheshunt on Friday - starts at 8.00pm to midnight, fully licensed bar, sprung dancefloor, brilliant sound system,

www.cerocmetro.com for more info and a map (although it's only 10- minutes from the M25 / A10 junction.........

DianaS

4th-August-2004, 05:23 PM

:tears:
 :tears:

Going to CerocMetro's JiveIn in Cheshunt on Friday - starts at 8.00pm to midnight, fully licensed bar, sprung dancefloor, brilliant sound system,

www.cerocmetro.com for more info and a map (although it's only 10- minutes from the M25 / A10 junction.........

Hey G
we'll miss each other! Still catch you another time. Drop me a line if your in the Midlands I so rarely dance in London, (actually this will be my first time!!) the excitement is too much.What should I wear??!!

Andy McG, ideas PLEASE!

anitaL

11th-August-2004, 02:58 PM

In Bristol we have had quite a few lessons recently on ladies taking over the lead during a dance-- not necessarily just during a break. The men are told that their lead should be just sufficient in strength to get the lady where you want her to be. This results in a subtle lead and also allows the lady freedom to take over the lead if she wants and for the man to be aware of any slight pressure from the lady indicating this. I'm not yet at the stage where I feel confident enough to lead although I might do it with someone I know well or if we've just had a lesson in it. Only experienced male dancers seem to know that ladies can lead anyway so with anyone else I usually have to explain what I'm going to try beforehand or there will be confusion!

MartinHarper

7th-September-2004, 04:11 PM

Ladies - I'm sorry, but if you start "stiffening your arms" in an attempt to backlead the break, you are going to get hurt.

I've seen a stiffer lady's arm taught in both Ceroc and JazzJive as the means for the lady to lead a slow turn or return, which seems a nice way to handle some breaks. Don't try it with someone who's not progressed past the porridge-stirring phase, I guess.

RogerR

3rd-October-2004, 10:09 AM

I like it when a lady I dance with follows constructively. Adds her style and interpretation, takes her own space to do her own thing. It inclines me to lead to include her style!!
I hate it when my partner tries to drive me through the dance. I just let the lead gently go to jelly til they realise that they havnt anything to fight, which usually distresses them, cos theyre trying to fight and cant fight nothing.

Dancing always feels better if you are dancing TOGETHER.

drathzel

9th-October-2004, 05:49 PM

.

Dancing always feels better if you are dancing TOGETHER.

:yeah: I Find it really off putting if i am up dancing and the man deliberately puts in really advanced moves, knowing that i am only a new intermediate, and i end up getting hurt because i dont kow how to follow or what the man is wanting me to do! I dont come across this very often but the few times that i have it has really ruined the dance for me and has made me not want to dance the next few dances!

Does anyone else find this?

:hug:

Magic Hans

9th-October-2004, 07:27 PM

Some guys get so threatened by a woman taking initiative!
...

:yeah: :yeah:

I think you're right. When men are focused in on doing moves .... and planning them ahead, it's easy it forget what the music is doing. Part of the learning curve imho!

Some people like tight structure, or rules. They feel safe there. Some prefer a far looser structure. I'm one who believes that rules are made to be broken, as effectively as creativity allows!!!! Only, in order to break a rule effectively, I need to know it like the back of my hand.

What is dancing?
a)Is it completing a sequence of set learned (and experimented) moves one after the other?
b)Is it creatively and freely expressing the music through movement?
c)Is it something in-between?

My nirvana is to get as near to c), as I possibly can. I can do this with some dancers, in particular a (far too!) young girl, Claire in Nottingham ..... who, I believe, has not yet learned to supress her creative expression .... and I hope she never does!

Some of her leads find her difficult to dance with, 'cos she doesn't do the right thing! She has had to tune herself down for these leads.

I really don't care if my follow doesn't!!! ... so long as she's still dancing with me and to the music!!!! Far less than a demand, my lead is simply an invitation!

Here's too my follow taking the initiative as and when she is moved to do so!!!

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Gadget

9th-October-2004, 09:44 PM

:yeah: I Find it really off putting if i am up dancing and the man deliberately puts in really advanced moves, knowing that i am only a new intermediate, and i end up getting hurt because i dont kow how to follow or what the man is wanting me to do! I dont come across this very often but the few times that i have it has really ruined the dance for me and has made me not want to dance the next few dances!
:tears: I hope it's not me you're referring to :flower: To be honest, I don't think I know what a "really advanced" move is, and normally lead ladys wherever the music takes me - unusual, unexpected and confusing sometimes (most times :blush: ), but I hope ultimatly rewarding.

If you are led into these moves, it could be seen as a compliment that they think you could handle anything thrown at you - but that's still no excuse for pain: It's not the maschokism tango.

As to ladies takeing the initative - I don't think that any ladies have during a freestyle dance with me: I leave the occasional window that is taken, and any time I release the lady (eg into a free-spin) then the catch is optional on my side of things. :waycool:

baldrick

10th-October-2004, 10:22 PM

Here's too my follow taking the initiative as and when she is moved to do so!!!

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Bring it on. I love a hijack and have never worried about being help by someone who know the music better than me (not tough). Its a partnership after all, both sides should have an input.

MartinHarper

10th-October-2004, 11:19 PM

Its a partnership after all, both sides should have an input.

Well, yes, but a follower don't have to "hijack" to have an input: she already has control over all aspects of her dancing that don't effect her ability to follow the next move. Probably more control than the guy, all told.

[You can] stop dramatically with both hands tucked behind the back and not offer the hand until the break is over.

(back on topic!) While Diana's advice is aimed at followers, I sometimes do much the same thing to "front lead" a break; works both ways round.

drathzel

11th-October-2004, 08:28 AM

:tears: I hope it's not me you're referring to :flower: To be honest, I don't think I know what a "really advanced" move is, and normally lead ladys wherever the music takes me - unusual, unexpected and confusing sometimes (most times :blush: ), but I hope ultimatly rewarding.

If you are led into these moves, it could be seen as a compliment that they think you could handle anything thrown at you - but that's still no excuse for pain: It's not the maschokism tango.

As to ladies takeing the initative - I don't think that any ladies have during a freestyle dance with me: I leave the occasional window that is taken, and any time I release the lady (eg into a free-spin) then the catch is optional on my side of things. :waycool:

Dont worry i'm not refering to you!

But if the lady doesn't catch, what else will she do? (apart from run off the dance floor if you dont want to dance with someone) <--- Has anyone ever done that?

:hug:

drathzel

11th-October-2004, 08:29 AM

Bring it on. I love a hijack and have never worried about being help by someone who know the music better than me (not tough). Its a partnership after all, both sides should have an input.

You dont say that when i try to lead :blush: !!!

Gadget

11th-October-2004, 09:45 AM

Dont worry i'm not refering to you!
:phew::flower:

But if the lady doesn't catch, what else will she do?
Shimmy, walk, stalk, carress themselves, carresss the man, start "handbag dancing", apraise the man, turn slowly, flamenco round the man...

drathzel

11th-October-2004, 01:47 PM

Shimmy, walk, stalk, carress themselves, carresss the man, start "handbag dancing", apraise the man, turn slowly, flamenco round the man...

I have never considered any of these things!! Do most people?

Gojive

11th-October-2004, 01:53 PM

I have never considered any of these things!! Do most people?

In my experience Danielle, certainly not 'most'...more likely 'some'.

I have to say though, when a lady offers these kinds of responses when I'm dancing with her, I am so pleased!. It kinda shows to me that they're are comfortable enough, and enjoying the dance enough with me, to want to be 'expressive' :clap: .

At least, that's my take on it :)

drathzel

11th-October-2004, 01:59 PM

In my experience Danielle, certainly not 'most'...more likely 'some'.

I have to say though, when a lady offers these kinds of responses when I'm dancing with her, I am so pleased!. It kinda shows to me that they're are comfortable enough, and enjoying the dance enough with me, to want to be 'expressive' :clap: .

At least, that's my take on it :)

Well i may try it! Watch out Glasgow males, and when i get enough practice i shall dance with you again, gojive!

Gojive

11th-October-2004, 02:12 PM

Well i may try it! Watch out Glasgow males, and when i get enough practice i shall dance with you again, gojive!

Hey Danielle! - I do hope you will dance with me with or without practice beforehand! :wink: :flower: :flower:

If you want to get some ideas, try sitting out a few dances, and concentrate on what the 'good' dancers seem to be doing. Then pick just one thing you like, and try it out. You'd be amazed at how quickly you can pick up these things, and often they will slip into your dance without you even planning it :)

drathzel

11th-October-2004, 02:19 PM

Hey Danielle! - I do hope you will dance with me with or without practice beforehand! :wink: :flower: :flower:

of course i will!!

If you want to get some ideas, try sitting out a few dances, and concentrate on what the 'good' dancers seem to be doing. Then pick just one thing you like, and try it out. You'd be amazed at how quickly you can pick up these things, and often they will slip into your dance without you even planning it :)

i did that at the bfg as i had no idea what to do with my feet, so i stared at everyones feet (sorry :blush: ) And now i feel a bit more confident when moving my feet!!!

Gojive

11th-October-2004, 02:24 PM

i did that at the bfg as i had no idea what to do with my feet, so i stared at everyones feet (sorry :blush: ) And now i feel a bit more confident when moving my feet!!!

So now you can walk?!!! :clap: :clap: :yum: :na:

Magic Hans

11th-October-2004, 02:41 PM

... concentrate on what the 'good' dancers seem to be doing. Then pick just one thing you like, and try it out ...

Bingo!! :cheers:

Modelling the best!!! Most effective way of learning since Man developed consiousness! [then started drinking himself unconcious again lol]

It constantly amazes me how much effort people put into analysing dancing, rather than simply copying and modelling those who do it well!

Better to model the best, than muddle the worst!! [or something like that!]

drathzel

11th-October-2004, 03:16 PM

So now you can walk?!!! :clap: :clap: :yum: :na:

just about! Although not always in a straight line and not always without triping!!!

Gadget

11th-October-2004, 03:18 PM

It constantly amazes me how much effort people put into analysing dancing, rather than simply copying and modelling those who do it well!

Better to model the best, than muddle the worst!! [or something like that!]
Isn't it better to understand the subject rather than just regurgitating what someone else does? If I see something cool that I want to incorporate into my dancing, I work out the mechanics how it was done {or am shown}, then see if I can implement it and how it would fit with music and other moves.

In order to actually copy an individual, you need to put lots of effort into observation and translate that into your own movement; which may or may not work. By analysing and observing your own dancing, you are actually cutting down on half the work.

Some moves I would never even attempt to copy without talking to the person who I'd seen perform them; dips, drops and arials being prime examples.

Magic Hans

12th-October-2004, 08:41 PM

It constantly amazes me how much effort people put into analysing dancing, rather than simply copying and modelling those who do it well!

Isn't it better to understand the subject rather than just regurgitating what someone else does?

...

Perhaps I overstate my point of view. Please, allow me to clarify.

It seems that many put an over-emphasis on analysis ... say 90+% ... maybe, in an effort to get it right first time .... every time. I certainly know that habit! I've not seen many put that much emphasis on the doing.

Personally, I believe in learning by doing, others may not, as is their right.

I guess I put up to 70% of effort into doing, and am pretty much guarranteed not to get it right first time!!! [nor do I particularly care! ... Jap proverb .... fall down 7 times, get up 8 .... not that I frequently fall down!]

It is generally supposed that kids learn quickly; babies even quicker. How? Surely not through use of their undeveloped analytical skills, but by careful observation and copying of their role models, parents in particular.

Is there a lesson in it for us? For me, certainly!

drathzel

13th-October-2004, 08:40 AM

Hey, Go-Jive

I did it!!! Ask baldrick and Pretzelmiester!! :clap: :clap:

I'm now ready for that dance!!! :hug:

Gadget

13th-October-2004, 09:17 AM

It seems that many put an over-emphasis on analysis ... say 90+% ... maybe, in an effort to get it right first time .... every time. I certainly know that habit! I've not seen many put that much emphasis on the doing.

Personally, I believe in learning by doing, others may not, as is their right.

I guess I put up to 70% of effort into doing, and am pretty much guarranteed not to get it right first time!!! [nor do I particularly care! ... Jap proverb .... fall down 7 times, get up 8 .... not that I frequently fall down!]
There is no point in learning to become an autonomous dancer; you not only have to know how to lead and how to move, but why a particular lead works and why you move like that. Kids ask "why?" all the time; taking your example, isn't that how they learn?

Graham

13th-October-2004, 01:12 PM

Hey, Go-Jive

I did it!!! Ask baldrick and Pretzelmiester!! :clap: :clap:

I'm now ready for that dance!!! :hug:
Rats! You would do it the night I wasn't there! :tears: Oh well, you can show me next time. :yum:

Graham

13th-October-2004, 01:19 PM

Gadget, you don't mean autonomous. I think you mean "a dancing automaton".

drathzel

13th-October-2004, 01:42 PM

Rats! You would do it the night I wasn't there! :tears: Oh well, you can show me next time. :yum:

i can only do it when i hi-jack the lead!!! :D

Where were you last night anyway! You were missed!

Graham

13th-October-2004, 01:50 PM

I shall just need to let myself be hi-jacked then. Don't worry, a certain Tuesday taxi-dancer has given me lots of practice. :grin:

I was having dinner with my boss.

drathzel

13th-October-2004, 01:56 PM

I shall just need to let myself be hi-jacked then. Don't worry, a certain Tuesday taxi-dancer has given me lots of practice. :grin:

I was having dinner with my boss.

oh hob nobbing with the boss!!!!

Are you saying that you enjoy being hi-jacked? With all that practice, you'd probably be good at it!!

Gojive

13th-October-2004, 08:39 PM

Hey, Go-Jive

I did it!!! Ask baldrick and Pretzelmiester!! :clap: :clap:

I'm now ready for that dance!!! :hug:

Nice one Danielle!!! :clap: :clap:

So what did you do? :)

(and what are your versions Baldrick/Pretzelmiester :wink: )

bigdjiver

13th-October-2004, 11:17 PM

baldrick

13th-October-2004, 11:58 PM

Hey, Go-Jive

I did it!!! Ask baldrick and Pretzelmiester!! :clap: :clap:

I'm now ready for that dance!!! :hug:
She did too, and very nicely. Different to some hijacks I've had that are straight takeovers. More a case of teamwork, each feeling for the appropriate time to take/ceed control. Fabulous. :clap: :cheers:

Magic Hans

14th-October-2004, 12:08 AM

There is no point in learning to become an autonomous dancer; you not only have to know how to lead and how to move, but why a particular lead works and why you move like that. Kids ask "why?" all the time; taking your example, isn't that how they learn?

How much point is there in feeling how the lead works, in emoting the music, with feeling from the heart (and soul)? How much consciousness wants to be in the head .... how much in the heart (and body)?

Different for different people no doubt. I leave it up to the jury. I know my decision.

Yes, I need to know or feel how effective different types of leading can be.
However, a particular lead strategy works .... must it have causal, logical sense??
If a particular lead makes causal, logical sense .... must it work?

As for the kids' "why" sometimes accompanied with a whining tone.

It's the laziest, least specific question to ask. How, What, Where, When, Who and Which .... far more specific, cutting and incisive.

Although a linguist expert might present a more intelligent case than I ever could!

Gadget

14th-October-2004, 12:28 AM

There is one way of dancing in which the follower is considered the picture, and the leader the frame.
I think that the statement is more meant to represent, say a photographer framing a model: you position the lady and create the opportunities for her to pose - you just provide the setting and don't distract from the central theme of the image: you complement it, crop to suit and show the best of the lady.

It has some merrits, but the style can make the lady seem aloof and the man worshiping her. {It works for DavidB and Lilly; she looks regal and he looks like her knight.}

Personally I go for a three dimensional weaver sort of thing: the man creates the framework and main pattern to follow; the lady weaves herself through this pattern, filling in the dance with colour and form. {this is a good abstract for musical interpritation I think}

Either that or the walk in the park sort of thing: the man tries to guide the lady as she is dancing blindfold down paths with a miriad of branches that intertwine; the guidance may lead the lady off onto an unintended path and the man has to jump to her side and follow this new path. He may shove her down one path with the view of picking her up somewhere further down the dance. {This anology can be expanded so much to take in almost every aspect of dancing.}

Gojive

14th-October-2004, 12:33 AM

Gadget

14th-October-2004, 12:59 AM

How much point is there in feeling how the lead works?
Feeling adds style. The logical knowing means you can actually have something to apply that style to.

If a particular lead makes causal, logical sense .... must it work? Technically, yes. But you must use the "Feeling" part to decide where to put it within the dance. As has been said many, many times before - MJ is learned backwards: you learn how to dance, then you learn how to do the moves.

It's the laziest, least specific question to ask. How, What, Where, When, Who and Which .... far more specific, cutting and incisive.
...And lead to dead ends. The "Why" opens the subject to more extensive scrutany and leads to further questions. The "Why" is a continual learning process - the rest have boundaries that can only be broken by asking "Why?" (or sometimes, "Why not...?") The only lazy thing about the "why?" question is the automatic and boring response.
My kids ask "Why?" all the time: "Don't lie in the grass." "Why?" "Because it will turn your hair green" "Why?" "because your hair is blonde it will soak up the colour and leave a patch of white grass" "Why?" because paper starts white and you add paint to it to make it green, so if you take that colour away it will be white."...{I have great fun warping my children :D}

bigdjiver

14th-October-2004, 02:21 AM

Personally I go for a three dimensional weaver sort of thing: the man creates the framework and main pattern to follow; the lady weaves herself through this pattern, filling in the dance with colour and form. {this is a good abstract for musical interpritation I think} The rep Nazi would not let me rep you again so soon for posting this concept.

Either that or the walk in the park sort of thing...For myself, it is the garden path I tend lead the ladies down ...

drathzel

14th-October-2004, 08:35 AM

She did too, and very nicely. Different to some hijacks I've had that are straight takeovers. More a case of teamwork, each feeling for the appropriate time to take/ceed control. Fabulous. :clap: :cheers:

:blush: thank you! It was fun! But thats cuz your not a control freak!! You dont mind being hi-jacked!! :hug:

Go jive

It was so much fun. The move was a ceroc spin and i didn't take hold of the guys hands again, and i just danced and wiggled and played then when i was done i offered my hand to show that i had finished!!!

(i'm sure cj could twist theat in so many ways but it was all clean... i can assure you!)

:hug:

Magic Hans

14th-October-2004, 09:04 AM

Brilliant stuff!! :cheers:

Sometimes, its just easier to go out and try it, rather than sit at home analysing it eh? :waycool:

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

You bet!!

Magic Hans

14th-October-2004, 09:11 AM

My kids ask "Why?" all the time: "Don't lie in the grass." "Why?" "Because it will turn your hair green" "Why?" "because your hair is blonde it will soak up the colour and leave a patch of white grass" "Why?" because paper starts white and you add paint to it to make it green, so if you take that colour away it will be white."...{I have great fun warping my children :D}

[ :rofl: ]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

What are you dong to your kids???? :wink:

Sounds like you're getting your own back for all the attention they demand!! :devil: ... I know I would! :D

Glad we seem to agree that both head and heart (or body) want to be involved, guess we'll just have to agree to disagree agreeably about other stuff!!

:flower:

MartinHarper

14th-October-2004, 05:32 PM

Has anybody explored the lady, with full agreement, back-leading the man, basically using him as a piece of adaptable and adjustable scenery and support?

If the woman is to have that level of control over the man, I'd imagine it makes more sense for her to lead, rather than backlead and have the guy backfollow. Having agreed on that, there are plenty of figures which involve the lead "showing off", and the follow essentially acting as "scenery and support" - enough to make an entire dance, if that's what the couple desire. It'd require an experienced woman and a patient man, though.

foxylady

14th-October-2004, 10:30 PM

There is one way of dancing in which the follower is considered the picture, and the leader the frame. The idea of the frame leading the picture has never sat comfortably with me. Has anybody explored the lady, with full agreement, back-leading the man, basically using him as a piece of adaptable and adjustable scenery and support?

My husband has two left feet (and when you dance with him it feels like about 24), and none of my uni. friends know how to dance, but at weddings and birthday parties etc. I frequently will say to a bloke "let your left hand go limp and just go with whatever I do !" :wink: ...
With everyone (except hubby) it works brilliantly, and all the women in the room think the man I am dancing with can dance fantastically !! and I get a bit of MJ out of it (as opposed to my normal wiggle and shake at these types of events....)

Lory

14th-October-2004, 10:45 PM

My husband has two left feet (and when you dance with him it feels like about 24), and none of my uni. friends know how to dance, but at weddings and birthday parties etc. I frequently will say to a bloke "let your left hand go limp and just go with whatever I do !" :wink: ...
With everyone (except hubby) it works brilliantly, and all the women in the room think the man I am dancing with can dance fantastically !! and I get a bit of MJ out of it (as opposed to my normal wiggle and shake at these types of events....)
All I can say is...... :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: Steve... thinks your wonderful! :angry: :hug:

Magic Hans

25th-October-2004, 11:57 PM

...
One of the hightlights was the section on breaks when Adam discussed the appropriateness of ladies leading a break ...

Leading a break!! Leading a break??? :eek: :eek:

More that leading a break .... how about when the lady blocks herself and does her own spin!!! unbidden!!!! It's outrageous!!! :wink:
[sarcastic mode off]

Sincerely though ... I love ladies doing their own thing, and surprising me. I was dancing at Southport at the weekend, was dancing and lead my lady into a first move.

Step back - fine
Step in - good
Turn/Twist out - ok, so far
Twist back - fab
Raise hand and turn under - All of a sudden .... Block!!! :what:

Lady refuses to go under ... by blocking with her (free) left hand against my (raised) left hand ..... and pushes herself into an anti-clockwise spin.

It really took me by (pleasant) surprise!! .... I'd have loved to have seen the look on my face! I had, then, to do some dead simple moves, whilst I recovered from the shock!!

I wish more ladies would do stuff like that for me!

Anyone else .... any thoughts, comments, feelings??

Ian

Gojive

26th-October-2004, 01:59 AM

I love ladies doing their own thing, and surprising me. I was dancing at Southport at the weekend, was dancing and lead my lady into a first move.

Step back - fine
Step in - good
Turn/Twist out - ok, so far
Twist back - fab
Raise hand and turn under - All of a sudden .... Block!!! :what:

Lady refuses to go under ... by blocking with her (free) left hand against my (raised) left hand ..... and pushes herself into an anti-clockwise spin.

It really took me by (pleasant) surprise!! .... I'd have loved to have seen the look on my face! I had, then, to do some dead simple moves, whilst I recovered from the shock!!

I wish more ladies would do stuff like that for me!

:yeah: :yeah:

Anyone else .... any thoughts, comments, feelings??

One of the girls I dance with at Fleet/Woking does that to me, and I love it!....so much so, that part of our 'game' now involves me deliberately leading her into 'temptation', and then trying to pre-empt her blocking the turn as you described, so that she doesn't catch me out :D - I think we're just about evens in the scoring at the moment!. Great fun! :clap:

DavidB

26th-October-2004, 02:43 AM

Lady refuses to go under ... by blocking with her (free) left hand against my (raised) left hand ..... and pushes herself into an anti-clockwise spin.
{snip}
I wish more ladies would do stuff like that for me!

deliberately leading her into 'temptation'
{Originally posted somewhere else}
Some people talk about ladies 'hijacking' the lead, and start doing their own stuff on their own accord. I make a distinction between a lady accepting an invitation lead ( :grin: :grin: ), and hijacking an indication lead ( :wink: then :really: then :what: then :sick: and finally :mad: )

MartinHarper

26th-October-2004, 09:19 AM

TRDC teach something similar as an "elbow stop", but I rarely see it in freestyle. Apparently guys, after recognising the hijack, tend to overlead the recovery. I reckon it's a lovely move, but of course it's hard to practice... :)

bigdjiver

26th-October-2004, 10:07 AM

I have had only one such blocking experience, and it threw me out of my stride for for the rest of the track. Unfortunately hers was a one-off holiday visit, and I never got the chance to acclimatise in subsequent dances.
I also had one girl tickle me under the chin in a break, which was a wow! moment, but, alas, I have not had the chance to dance with her again either.

MartinHarper

4th-April-2005, 07:30 PM

Sometimes I get a partner who deliberately "unbalance" herself, or appear to be unbalanced, such that it would require a larger than normal force to lead her in again for the next move. This makes me naturally reluctant to lead her in immediately, so I'm more likely to give her an extra couple of beats to play. I'm not sure how successful this is, though, or how exactly it's done. Also, I need to be dancing with someone who's normally very balanced, such that the off imbalanced moment stands out more.

David Bailey

4th-April-2005, 07:45 PM

Sometimes I get a partner who deliberately "unbalance" herself, or appear to be unbalanced, such that it would require a larger than normal force to lead her in again for the next move. This makes me naturally reluctant to lead her in immediately, so I'm more likely to give her an extra couple of beats to play.
That is so weird, it's like using a bad habit as overcompensation or something. I don't think I've ever come across this (or possibly I wasn't paying attention and assumed my partner was, well, unbalanced).
I've got to say, I think that's definitely a poor way to force a break / slowdown, forcing extra effort on the leader's part seems bad practice.

MartinHarper

17th-June-2005, 12:56 AM

David Bailey

17th-June-2005, 09:13 AM

When I see a woman doing something wonderful, when she's dancing with me, my thought is to attempt to add to that. I can't do that effectively if she interprets every lead, however light, as a lead to stop playing. For example, if she's doing some fancy wiggles, and I give her a slight lead to move forward, what I'm hoping to see is those wiggles continuing as she moves forward. What I get is often more like "oh well - play time over - travelling return was it?".
Interesting; you get that all the time in salsa; lots of lady shines, going on for, well, 10 minutes or so at a time it seems. But as the man, you pretty much have to just do the basic step and try to keep in time - damned difficult when you're watching all this fantastic footwork, I can tell you.

So yes, it'd be nice to have a "can I play too" lead of some kind.

P.S. We definitely need a "shrug" icon :)

Purple Sparkler

17th-June-2005, 11:18 AM

I also had one girl tickle me under the chin in a break, which was a wow! moment, but, alas, I have not had the chance to dance with her again either.

So stealing that idea. Somebody use a break tonight at Ashtons!

I, personally, love doing lady steals, even though I only know 2, both involving the First Move. One always gets a good reaction (I've mentioned it in Moves from Heaven), but the other one- block the guys arm with your hand when he goes to turn you, and turn the other way, got a confused "Why did you push my wrist?" last night. I think I need to work on that one a bit. But I'm planning on trying to persuade Nicky Haslam to teach me some good 'steals' at MJC, as for the most part, the men I dance with just think it's very cool that I use those kinds of moves.

DavidB

17th-June-2005, 11:56 AM

Several women are very good at solo dancing, and they'll stand there doing body rolls and twists and whatnot for the entire song, if I let them. That's cool. Sadly, it often has the feeling of a large soap bubble - very beautiful, bright shimmering colours, but as soon as I touch it, it breaks.I look at it this way. If she wanted to dance a whole song by herself, she would have gone to a nightclub, or a jazz lesson. Presumably if she has come to a Modern Jive night, then she wants to follow a few moves as well.

When I see a woman doing something wonderful, when she's dancing with me, my thought is to attempt to add to that. I can't do that effectively if she interprets every lead, however light, as a lead to stop playing. For example, if she's doing some fancy wiggles, and I give her a slight lead to move forward, what I'm hoping to see is those wiggles continuing as she moves forward. What I get is often more like "oh well - play time over - travelling return was it?".Most men start leading purely with their hands. As they get better, some learn that using their body as part of the lead can make a big difference. But it is not a pure body lead (as say in ballroom). Instead it is a combination of the hand and the body.
The next stage is learning to isolate these two parts, almost like a beginner does. But instead of moving the hand without the body, you try to move your body without moving your hand.

If only it was as easy to do as it is to describe...