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stewart38
28th-December-2006, 05:10 PM
I don’t know if there is a thread about this but I was looking at some of the comments made by what I would say are well know accomplished dancers on this forum . They have made comments that they get a refused a dance and sometime quite rudely and its not infrequent. :sad:

I probably refuse over a year about 1 request for a dance per 100 (if asked)

Usually when there is big imbalance like at Ashton’s and I need air or a drink or a pee etc

I get declined about 1 dance per 70 ? I think if I was getting 10 refusals per 100 id get upset

Id be interested in the ratios

If you a man and women and get refused every other dance you can always start ‘my friend’ etc fools them every time :wink:

Lee Bartholomew
28th-December-2006, 05:19 PM
Normally get the "your to good to dance with me" line. Never accept it and always drag them up to dance.

One day I'll learn my lesson and realise that they are telling the truth :whistle: :rofl:

MartinHarper
28th-December-2006, 06:05 PM
I get refused second dances a few times a night, not always verbally (IE, when they run away screaming at the end of the first dance I figure I should go ask someone else). Maybe 1 in 10?

Maybe 40% of the guys I ask to dance refuse (in freestyle, that is. 0% in class).

Aside from that, maybe a direct refusal once every 5 nights or so (1.5hrs/night, 3mins/song = about every 150 dances). It's hard to tell about indirect refusals, though - did someone deliberately walk off when I got too close, or was it just a coincidence? My answer on that fluctuates as my paranoia battles my arrogance.

WittyBird
28th-December-2006, 06:06 PM
Normally get the "your to good to dance with me" line.

Yeah me too :yawn:



One day I'll learn my lesson and realise that they are telling the truth :whistle: :rofl:

Earth to Woodface :rofl:

Lee Bartholomew
28th-December-2006, 06:11 PM
Earth to Woodface :rofl:

I found it funny. :yum:

StokeBloke
28th-December-2006, 06:17 PM
In the two and a half months I've been dancing I have never refused anyone a dance. Can't see that I ever would either. Now I know this is just asking for it, but I have also never been turned down yet either - maybe it's karmic :waycool:

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before you girls start turning me down in your droves... and now I've posted this......... :eek:

Lee Bartholomew
28th-December-2006, 06:21 PM
There are plenty of legit reasons to get turned down.

injuries, tiredness, sweating to much, argument with husband....

there just some of the things that i've caused my dance partners to suffer which might give them reason to turn another dancer down. :rofl:

fletch
28th-December-2006, 06:25 PM
In the two and a half months I've been dancing I have never refused anyone a dance. Can't see that I ever would either

Oh yes you will :na:


I'm sure it's only a matter of time before you girls start turning me down in your droves... and now I've posted this......... :eek:


So do you go to venues where there are forumites in attendance :confused:

StokeBloke
28th-December-2006, 06:41 PM
Oh yes you will :na:

Yeah, I know... never say never :flower:


So do you go to venues where there are forumites in attendance :confused:
Well work and family commitments mean I can't do venues too far from home, and weekends are out too at the moment. It's difficult to tell who is a forumite and who isn't; so the honest answer is 'I dunno Fletch'.

Let me I extend an open invitation to all the girls on the forum... please all feel free to come along to Wolverhampton Pavilion tonight so you can point and laugh at me and turn me down when I ask you to dance. There will be a limited selection of fruit to throw, so arrive early to avoid disappointment :wink:

Although if you do brave the floor with me Fletch, I promise I won't kick you. Come find me Fletch.... you know you want to :love: :love: :love: :love:

Lee Bartholomew
28th-December-2006, 06:48 PM
Y It's difficult to tell who is a forumite and who isn't; so the honest answer is 'I dunno Fletch'.



It's in the way we walk apparently. lol

StokeBloke
28th-December-2006, 06:49 PM
It's in the way we walk apparently. lolI thought that's what the talcum powder was for :rofl:

Lee Bartholomew
28th-December-2006, 06:50 PM
I thought that's what the talcum powder was for :rofl:

Yep, forumites are the ones with white marks around their crotch.

Lory
28th-December-2006, 06:53 PM
I Know I've said it before but I get turned down far more often by the guys I know well.
I think it's a simple case, that they know i'll understand and won't hold it against them, if they have a genuine reason and anyway, I hate dancing with guys who aren't really up for it :sick:

I suppose in general, I get turned down about once a month, I think:confused:

Frankie_4711
28th-December-2006, 07:03 PM
I hardly ever refuse a dance, and always try (don't always succeed!) to dance with that person later that night, or at worst the next time I see them, because I will never turn down a dance just because I don't want to dance with that person, it will always be for a legitimate reason (almost always that I have promised that dance to someone else, as even if I need the loo/drink etc I will try and put it off until after that dance just so that I don't have to turn them down).

Unfortunately I get turned down a lot more regularly. 3 different people in one song I think is my record! But that isn't typical. I'd say, maybe one a night on average.

JiveLad
28th-December-2006, 07:05 PM
This is a subject I covered in my (mildly entertaining) blog - at http://ceroc.blogspot.com/2006/12/asking-someone-to-dance-including.html

and in that post, I estimated I get refused at a rate of about 1%.

I can only remember one refusal this month (Chesham) - and on reflection I was silly to ask, as she was in a very deep conversation.

I also experimented by not asking anyone - see the post at http://ceroc.blogspot.com/2006/12/christmas-jive-aces.html

which gave me a taste of what it might be like to be a woman who doesn't ask - and just waiting for someone to ask me.

At the moment, in over 1 year of dancing, I have never refused anyone - even when it is a repeat. I mkae it quite obvious when I don't want to dance, because I leave the dance floor room/environs.

Lee Bartholomew
28th-December-2006, 07:08 PM
I don't know why women don'r ask men.

I understand that it is a legacy thing dating back to times of yore etc but I just cant see why women would go to a dance just to stand around being a wall flower for an evening.


I have danced with people near the end of an evening to find out I was the only person that danced with them !!!!

JiveLad
28th-December-2006, 07:17 PM
I don't know why women don'r ask men.

I understand that it is a legacy thing dating back to times of yore etc but I just cant see why women would go to a dance just to stand around being a wall flower for an evening.


I have danced with people near the end of an evening to find out I was the only person that danced with them !!!!

Agree with you there. And the women I tend to go dancing with are 'Askers' - and they too are amazed that some women just will not ask. I think that once a woman realises it is ok to ask - and she tries it, and it works, then it is fine. I do remember my first venture into freestyle - and my first 'Ask' - I was soooooo nervous - so I can understand it with beginners particularly.

I guess we all have our 'barriers' to get through - then we're ok.

Andreas
28th-December-2006, 07:19 PM
I couldn't put a number on how often I am being refused a dance but it happens. As for me refusing, that luckily hardly ever happens.

The most interesting one I had was a lady picking up who she danced with after a couple of moves and then telling me the if she had known it was me she'd not asked me to dance ... :whistle: :rofl:

Missy D
28th-December-2006, 07:23 PM
Its rare for me to go out dancing without being refused at least once. A couple of weeks ago at Hammersmith I was refused three times in a row and was really upset.

Lee Bartholomew
28th-December-2006, 07:27 PM
Its rare for me to go out dancing without being refused at least once. A couple of weeks ago at Hammersmith I was refused three times in a row and was really upset.

Don't take it to heart.

There are only two types of people who refuse a dance....

Those with legit reasons (rest etc) and those who have their heads up their own backsides.

StokeBloke
28th-December-2006, 07:28 PM
Its rare for me to go out dancing without being refused at least once. A couple of weeks ago at Hammersmith I was refused three times in a row and was really upset.
You guys need to come dance in the Midlands... we're a very friendly bunch :awe:

Missy D
28th-December-2006, 07:31 PM
Don't take it to heart.

There are only two types of people who refuse a dance....

Those with legit reasons (rest etc) and those who have their heads up their own backsides.


Definately the latter!

Lee Bartholomew
28th-December-2006, 07:37 PM
Managed to put myself in hospital trying that once.

MartinHarper
28th-December-2006, 07:45 PM
The main reason I find myself directly refusing a dance is when someone asks me to dance after I've already agreed to dance with someone else. It doesn't happen too often.

JiveLad
28th-December-2006, 07:49 PM
At Berkhamsted over the last 2 months, the teachers have mentioned that no-one should refuse a dance (I believe they have been told that some people were refusing) - and that they wanted to continue their reputation for friendliness.

Right on!

I think that if a refusal is made - then it is the way it is done that is important. The 2 girls who refused to dance with me in my early days did it in such an offhand way it made me feel not good (like they knew I was a beginner and what was I doing even walking within 10 metres of their personal space).

Once refused, it's important to 'get back in the saddle' - and I really feel for you if you had 3 refusals in a row. That is tough..............

Lee Bartholomew
28th-December-2006, 07:51 PM
I got refused a dance once buy a girl who just said "no thank you".

She later asked me to dance and appologised saying she only dances with good dancers. Felt like saying no back but i'm bigger than that (sometimes)

Andreas
28th-December-2006, 07:55 PM
A few weeks back I had a girl looking at me head to feet and then saying 'no thanks'. :what: Ah well, sh*t happens. Just means I won't ask again.

Lynn
28th-December-2006, 08:25 PM
I don't know why women don'r ask men.

I understand that it is a legacy thing dating back to times of yore etc but I just cant see why women would go to a dance just to stand around being a wall flower for an evening. I prefer to be asked. I don't know why, I just do. Doesn't mean I don't ask when I'm in the mood. (Or at my local venue.)

And I certainly don't sit around complaining that I'm not getting dances, if I haven't tried asking any men - some women do. Don't understand that.

I don't refuse, unless for a valid reason, and then I do go and try to find the person again later. Haven't got many refusals either, and they've usually come back and asked me. (But then I don't tend to 'pounce' - I try to suss out with a look if the guy is wanting to dance before I ask.) No idea how many refusals per 'ask'.

There are some people I don't ask, because I know they might refuse - not because they never want to dance with me, but perhaps not that song, or at that time. They can always come and ask me if they want a dance.

JiveLad
28th-December-2006, 08:55 PM
The refusal equation

After several thousand hours of analysis, scientists at the Ceroc Refusal & Asking Partners Institute have determined the following equation:

The probability of a refusal is determined by a number of factors:
- skill level of the 'Asker' (Sa)
- skill level of the 'Target' (St)
- tiredness of the 'Target' (Tt)
- current activity level of the 'Target' (At)
- confidence/quality of the Ask by the 'Asker' (Ca)

P(r) = 0.01 + 0.1*(St - Sa) + (0.2*(Tt + At)) + Ca

(If P(r) is negative - then the partner is likely to ask you first).

where skill level (Sa and St) is as follows:
1 - Strictly Come Dancing/semi-pro
0.9 - Championship Winner
0.8 - Advanced
0.7 - Intermediate
0.6 - Improver
0.5 - Beginner
0.4 - No hoper

Tt
0 - Wide awake & raring to go
0.1 - Bright eyed and bushy tailed
0.2 - Reasonably chilled
0.3 - Danced-a-lot
0.4 - Ready for bed
0.5 - Knackered

At
0 - Standing at the edge of the dance floor alone, with tongue out
0.1 - Standing at the dance floor with drink in hand
0.2 - Sitting with drink
0.3 - Standing talking with friend
0.4 - Sitting with back to floor and drink and friend
0.5 - Reading a book with iPod

Ca
- 0.1 - NLP Master Practitioner
- 0.05 - Confident smile, look in eye and steady voice
0 - Average bloke on the street
0.05 - Grey
0.1 - Timid, shy, no eye contact

So imagine I am an Improver, asking an Advanced who is ready for bed and sitting with a drink - and I am an Average bloke - the probability would be

Pr = 0.01 + 0.1*(0.8 - 0.6) + (0.2*(0.2+0.2)) + 0
= 0.01 + (0.02) + (0.08)
= 0.11

So an 11% chance of refusal.

Andreas
28th-December-2006, 09:07 PM
Wow, 11% refusal at such odds sounds great! I'd have thought it'd be 11% chance of getting the dance. :na: But you this research also has forgotten about two very important factors:

EF = ego factor
LF = luck factor

These two or even one of them can toss over the entire equation. :D

JiveLad
28th-December-2006, 09:21 PM
Yes - and another key factor is the 'how-well-do-you-know-them-and-have-you-danced-before' factor.

I will discuss these with the C.R.A.P.I. to get a revised equation for 2007.

Miguel
28th-December-2006, 09:44 PM
A couple of weeks ago at Hammersmith I was refused three times in a row and was really upset.

19 easy ways to attract more men to dance with you
http://www.salsacrazy.com/guideforwomen.htm

Hope this helps.

Minnie M
28th-December-2006, 09:55 PM
A few weeks back I had a girl looking at me head to feet and then saying 'no thanks'. :what: Ah well, sh*t happens. Just means I won't ask again.
:what:
She must have been gay :rolleyes:

I'm still waiting for my dance:tears: I have tried to ask you, but you are in so much demand (and quite rightly so) :flower:

Northants Girly
28th-December-2006, 10:14 PM
:what:
She must have been gay :rolleyes:
. . . . or a case of mistaken identity :)

I went to Ashford last month, never been before, knew almost no-one. There was a guy there who was dancing with everyone and looked like a good dancer too so I plucked up courage to ask him . . . . and, although the track had been running for a few bars at least, he told me that it was his wife's fav and he had to go find her - so her ran off to the other side of the room. Didn't see him dancing though. Later on he was back on my side of the room, dancing with everyone but me :( Needless to say it put a bit of a dampner on my night (yeah I know it shouldn't have)

As for refusing dances I hardly ever, ever do. There's probably only 2 in the last year. One was to Stewart while in Gran Canaria. It was the last night and my poor old knees couldn't take anymore which was why I was sitting outside the dance room on a nice comfy sofa. Sorry Stewart!

There are 2 guys who in the past have had a grope, one of them more than once :eek: (I give folk the benefit of the doubt! :rolleyes: ) so they get straight no thankyous :angry:

Andreas
28th-December-2006, 10:14 PM
19 easy ways to attract more men to dance with you
http://www.salsacrazy.com/guideforwomen.htm

Hope this helps.
Cool link! Well worth a read! :cheers:

Freudian Hips
28th-December-2006, 10:15 PM
I never refuse :respect:

Only come across one regular refuser, he knows who he is :na: . I'm tough, I can take it! :rolleyes:

Andreas
28th-December-2006, 10:18 PM
:what:
She must have been gay :rolleyes:

I'm still waiting for my dance:tears: I have tried to ask you, but you are in so much demand (and quite rightly so) :flower:
There are two reasons why you should not hesitate pushing them other ladies aside:

1) You were the first forumite I ever met! Remember that time at Ashton's? :flower: So your rights are the oldest. :D

2) You know most of the other ladies. Just push them out of the way telling them that they had already had a lot more dances than you. ;)

WittyBird
28th-December-2006, 10:18 PM
I Know I've said it before but I get turned down far more often by the guys I know well.

Me too! Unless I dance at Bromley or the Midlands :rofl: Then it's more like a blessing :yum:


I don't know why women don'r ask men.


No me neither :rolleyes:


I couldn't put a number on how often I am being refused a dance but it happens.

You refused - I don't believe that, you're one of my favourite dancers and you've gone up in the rankings after being refused by someone else last night :tears: :wink:


Its rare for me to go out dancing without being refused at least once. A couple of weeks ago at Hammersmith I was refused three times in a row and was really upset.

I remember it well :hug:


You guys need to come dance in the Midlands... we're a very friendly bunch :awe:


You're having a laugh aint ya? :rolleyes:

Lory
28th-December-2006, 10:19 PM
19 easy ways to attract more men to dance with you
http://www.salsacrazy.com/guideforwomen.htm

Hope this helps.


Well worth a read! :cheers:

:yeah: Cos it's hilarious! :rofl: oops :blush:

Andreas
28th-December-2006, 10:29 PM
you've gone up in the rankings after being refused by someone else last night :tears: :wink:
Err ... is that a compliment or a backhand? :what: :rofl: :rofl:

Spin dryer
28th-December-2006, 10:33 PM
19 easy ways to attract more men to dance with you
http://www.salsacrazy.com/guideforwomen.htm

Hope this helps.

From my point of view, a smile is by far the most beguiling and persuasive attribute to get me on the dance floor. I was very conscious of this last night as I surveyed the serried ranks of women at the Black and White Ball and made the difficult choice as to who I would dance with next. A smile gives the impression that you feel good about yourself, are happy and are open. Smile and the world smiles with you, cry and it xxxxs on you.

WittyBird
28th-December-2006, 11:01 PM
Err ... is that a compliment or a backhand? :what: :rofl: :rofl:

Love ya babes :worthy:

Andreas
28th-December-2006, 11:13 PM
Love ya babes :worthy::rofl: :hug: :kiss:

fletch
29th-December-2006, 10:28 AM
You guys need to come dance in the Midlands... we're a very friendly bunch :awe:
yes if the guy feels the lady is at his level :eek:



Me too! Unless I dance at Bromley or the Midlands :rofl: Then it's more like a blessing :yum:


You're having a laugh aint ya? :rolleyes:

Its quite strange if you dance outside the Midlands and no one knows you, and your an OK dancer people make a bee line for you, but in the Midlands they don't come near you :(

Lory
29th-December-2006, 10:45 AM
Its quite strange if you dance outside the Midlands and no one knows you, and your an OK dancer people make a bee line for you, but in the Midlands they don't come near you :(

:confused: Sorry Fletch, I don't understand what your saying...

I'm reading this as, the men in the Midlands prefer to dance with ladies who aren't very good? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean? :blush:

Cruella
29th-December-2006, 10:52 AM
:confused: Sorry Fletch, I don't understand what your saying...

I'm reading this as, the men in the Midlands prefer to dance with ladies who aren't very good? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean? :blush:

I think she means that they don't approach her cos she's too daunting. The men outside the Midlands are a lot braver. :wink:

WittyBird
29th-December-2006, 10:55 AM
I'm reading this as, the men in the Midlands prefer to dance with ladies who aren't very good? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean? :blush:

Nope, That's exactly what she's saying :sick:

ducasi
29th-December-2006, 11:33 AM
:yeah: Cos it's hilarious! :rofl: oops :blush:
To quote that famous philosopher, Homer Simpson, "It's funny 'cos it's true!"

Twirly
29th-December-2006, 11:40 AM
Luckily am rarely refused, but then although I do ask, I’m like Lynn and prefer to be asked - probably about an 80%/20% split, unless I'm having a bad night - though did take charge one night and did most of the asking and found it quite fun to chose whom I would dance with. :grin:

I often wait until most people have asked the people they really want to dance with, then look for someone who is watching the other dancers, maybe looks as if they wish they were up there too. Then go and ask - minimises the "I have to dance this with X" response. Also, quite a few times I’ve gone up, started asking someone and then realised that they look a bit hot and sweaty. Usually finish those requests to dance with “that’s if you’re not too hot right now”. That allows them a graceful bow-out if they are – though usually they then ask me to dance the next one. Saves them from refusing outright, and me from getting refused.

Having said that, there was one refusal of the looking up and down variety and a flat “No” (not even a “no thank you” or “not right now”). I’ve seen him around a lot since, and avoid him like the plague because of how he made me feel. :(

As for refusing, very very rarely. Normally because I’m too hot, need a drink, just been trodden on, tired, etc.

We all seem to have the attitude (quite rightly I think) that you shouldn’t refuse a dance. But what if there is someone you really don’t want to dance with? There’s only one person I can think of right now whom I feel like that about (and seem to have upset him so much on one occasion by politely saying I was too hot – which I was – that he doesn’t ask now :D result!). Anyone got any good avoidance tips?

TheTramp
29th-December-2006, 11:45 AM
I got refused a dance once buy a girl who just said "no thank you".

She later asked me to dance and appologised saying she only dances with good dancers.

And you were the evenings charity case? :rolleyes:


As for refusing, very very rarely. Normally because I’m too hot, need a drink, just been trodden on, tired, etc.

It's not that rare that I say no. But it's never just because I don't like the look of the person asking. After dancing 15 tracks in a row, there are times that I need a rest, a drink, whatever :flower:

And, just for the record, I hate this, "You can never say no" mentality. I'm sure that being told that from the stage puts a lot of beginners off - after the 5th person they don't want to dance with has come up to them in a row, and they've felt that they can't say no, because that's what the teacher says, they leave, and don't come back. As far as I'm concerned, people have paid their money, they can dance with whoever they like. Although, there are some ways of saying no that are definitely more pleasant than others.

jivecat
29th-December-2006, 11:52 AM
I often wait until most people have asked the people they really want to dance with, then look for someone who is watching the other dancers, maybe looks as if they wish they were up there too. You are so nice!! I just watch out for the person I think is likely to give me the best dance. Me, me, me! However, it is much more likely that you'll get a grateful response from the guys still left over after the initial rush. Can't think why.:rolleyes:





We all seem to have the attitude (quite rightly I think) that you shouldn’t refuse a dance. But what if there is someone you really don’t want to dance with? There’s only one person I can think of right now whom I feel like that about (and seem to have upset him so much on one occasion by politely saying I was too hot – which I was – that he doesn’t ask now :D result!). Anyone got any good avoidance tips?

Stare at your feet every time he walks past?

It sounds like you have very good reason to not want to dance with this person. If that's the case, and is not overcome by wanting to show kindness or good manners (which you clearly do the vast majority of the time) I think you are justified in politely saying "No thank you."

Miguel
29th-December-2006, 11:59 AM
Anyone got any good avoidance tips?

Just do this on the side of the dance floor. I'm sure it would work a treat.
http://www.funlol.com/funpages/how-not-to-pole-dance.html

Hope it helps.

Lynn
29th-December-2006, 01:38 PM
Luckily am rarely refused, but then although I do ask, I’m like Lynn and prefer to be asked - probably about an 80%/20% split, unless I'm having a bad night - though did take charge one night and did most of the asking and found it quite fun to chose whom I would dance with. :grin: I'm probably about the same - though in my local venues its probably the other way round. I've also done the 'take charge' thing and asked for every single dance. Problem is then that men can't ask me to dance as I'm so busy off asking! Its fun, but I do have to be in the right frame of mind.

I often wait until most people have asked the people they really want to dance with, then look for someone who is watching the other dancers, maybe looks as if they wish they were up there too. I do that too at weekenders - I often have a 'dance with strangers only' hour or so where I deliberately ask people I don't know and have never danced with before. I've had some lovely dances that way and in many of the cases the men I've asked have then come back and asked me later. Some men are shy about asking too! Especially beginners.

And, just for the record, I hate this, "You can never say no" mentality. I'm sure that being told that from the stage puts a lot of beginners off - after the 5th person they don't want to dance with has come up to them in a row, and they've felt that they can't say no, because that's what the teacher says, they leave, and don't come back.It also means beginners don't realise they can refuse to dance with someone who makes them feel uncomfortable - rather feeling they have to not turn up to avoid a particular dancer.

Also when they ask and are refused if they think 'no-one says no' and someone does - it can feel very personal.

Stare at your feet every time he walks past?I've used this avoidance tactic. I've also used the 'suddenly get up and visit the ladies/get a drink/go and talk to someone'. It gives the man a chance to bow out of the asking attempt without having to be actually refused. It doesn't always work though - I've been 'stalked' round the dance floor.

Note - these were men with whom I'd danced with in the past and who had made me feel very unsafe and thrown me off balance and into other dancers. Not just people I didn't feel like dancing with.

jivecat
29th-December-2006, 01:47 PM
Note - these were men with whom I'd danced with in the past and who had made me feel very unsafe and thrown me off balance and into other dancers. Not just people I didn't feel like dancing with.

If I refused all the guys who did this to me I'd have a pretty lean time (although you could argue that I'm having this anyway by agreeing to dance with them.:rolleyes: ).

I danced with someone at the B&W who began to hurl me into a badly-balanced drop on an extremely over-crowded dance floor. When I gave out a muffled yelp of fear he said, very concerned, bless him, "Have you got a bad back?"

Someone in Ceroc London is doing a fine job of telling people they must ask permission before inflicting drops on people, keep up the good work.

Lynn
29th-December-2006, 01:56 PM
If I refused all the guys who did this to me I'd have a pretty lean time (although you could argue that I'm having this anyway by agreeing to dance with them.:rolleyes: ). I mean more than the usual amount. And where there has been nothing I could do to avoid other dancers on the floor. So that a dance with that person would mean I spent almost the entire dance protecting myself and others from injury. Not nice, and there's also the risk of not being able to dance with anyone else the rest of the evening due to injury.

Someone in Ceroc London is doing a fine job of telling people they must ask permission before inflicting drops on people, keep up the good work.I've most often been asked this by dancers from Scotland. :D

TurboTomato
29th-December-2006, 01:59 PM
And, just for the record, I hate this, "You can never say no" mentality. I'm sure that being told that from the stage puts a lot of beginners off - after the 5th person they don't want to dance with has come up to them in a row, and they've felt that they can't say no, because that's what the teacher says, they leave, and don't come back. As far as I'm concerned, people have paid their money, they can dance with whoever they like. Although, there are some ways of saying no that are definitely more pleasant than others.

Not sure I agree with that. Depends what you mean - that the 'never say no' mentality is drummed into you without enough emphasis on the fact that you can say no in a polite manner, or the just the 'shouldn't refuse a dance' ethos. To my mind, when I was a beginner, one of the reasons I would keep coming back was because I knew whoever I asked to dance, they would say yes. It wouldn't have been a very inviting place if I knew that, for instance, someone that didn't like dancing with beginners would look down their nose at me and say 'no' when asked to dance

MartinHarper
29th-December-2006, 01:59 PM
The only problem I have with the refuse-eye-contact thing is that it can come over as a rejection of the whole person, rather than merely the person's dancing. I guess the two are equivalent for many dancers.

jivecat
29th-December-2006, 02:20 PM
The only problem I have with the refuse-eye-contact thing is that it can come over as a rejection of the whole person, rather than merely the person's dancing. I guess the two are equivalent for many dancers.

I'm afraid that this is probably true. But if it came to the crunch, and I turned down a dance, and gave the (dancing) reasons why, it would probably be taken as a rejection of the whole person. I would normally only consider refusing a dance when personal reasons were involved. e.g they were a poor/dangerous dancer, plus, I didn't like them. The refusal-of-eye-contact thing is a cop-out for when I'm really not in the mood to be tolerant.

ducasi
29th-December-2006, 02:56 PM
At Camber, I asked a girl I'd never danced with before... She did the whole look you up and down thing and I just knew that a refusal was coming... Then she said 'Yes'!

If looking someone up and down is rude, then was this an offensive compliment?

StokeBloke
29th-December-2006, 03:00 PM
Its quite strange if you dance outside the Midlands and no one knows you, and your an OK dancer people make a bee line for you, but in the Midlands they don't come near you :(

Maybe your reputation precedes you Fletch :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

You know that I would love the chance to get a dance with the elusive Fletch.... but in all the time I've been dancing I haven't seen you at any Midlands events (Stoke, Stafford, Wolverhampton Pavilion, Burton or the J11 Club). Maybe things have changed since you last visited a Midlands venue - how long has it been since you danced at one babe? Maybe I'll get a dance or three with you in 2007 :flower: :flower: :flower:

Andy McGregor
29th-December-2006, 03:05 PM
so the honest answer is 'I dunno Fletch'.If fletch is at your venue, you will know - even if you close your eyes :tears:

Msfab
29th-December-2006, 03:07 PM
http://www.salsacrazy.com/guideforwomen.htm


#15. If a man approaches from the side, don't turn to look at him.
A man with dance training will approach in front of a woman so she can see him coming. But not all men know this, and at a crowded party it often isn't possible. So expect some men to approach from the side. When that happens, DO NOT look at him. Turning to look sideways makes you appear desperate. Just keep looking ahead at the dancers on the floor. You want to give a man the chance to look you over.

The person that wrote this is truely Crazy!!!


#16. Never ask a man to dance.
That's right - never say to a man, "Would you like to dance?" or "May I have this dance?" If you ask, it puts him on the spot to answer instantly. He may be surprised that a woman asks, and may stumble and get embarrassed. No woman wants to risk causing that at a dance party. Plus asking is difficult for the woman, because there is that chance of being rejected. So never ask a man to dance!

#17. Tell the man you want to dance with him.
Simply say, "I want to dance with you." Just that, in exactly those words. Most women have a lot of experience telling men what they want. And men are used to hearing what women want. So when you tell a man what you want, both of you are in socially familiar territory.
And a little further up he says :
Is it okay for a woman to ask men to dance? Yes, in these liberated times, that's perfectly fine.Can someone tell me the difference between these 2 points?

WittyBird
29th-December-2006, 03:38 PM
If fletch is at your venue, you will know - even if you close your eyes :tears:

It's the sound of everyones jaws dropping to the floor as she walks into the building.

God knows why she can't use the door like everyone else :flower:

Miguel
29th-December-2006, 03:50 PM
And a little further up he says : Can someone tell me the difference between these 2 points?

Never ask a question that generates a yes/no reply, that's all he's saying. Skipping to the end of his article he gives the ultimate close.

#19. Add a touch to your words.
Always use exactly the words, "I want to dance with you." Then - as you say that - touch the man you desire. Your touch can be to place your hand gently on his arm, or use one finger tip to caress the top button of his shirt - as you look at him and smile and say, "I want to dance with you." I guarantee you will get a lot attention from that man!
http://www.salsacrazy.com/guideforwomen.htm

bigdjiver
29th-December-2006, 03:57 PM
... expect some men to approach from the side. When that happens, DO NOT look at him...
If a lady knows I am approaching and continues to stare fixedly ahead I take that as a sign that she does not want to be asked.

StokeBloke
29th-December-2006, 03:57 PM
Never ask a question that generates a yes/no reply, that's all he's saying. Skipping to the end of his article he gives the ultimate close.


I got most of the stuff he was saying, and if you pick through the anally retentive delivery there are a few good pointers in there. But I was confused by "never look at a man because you'll look desperate" - and - "walk up to a group of men and say 'I want to dance with you, and you, and you'" whilst fondling the top buttons of their shirts and touching their arms. :confused: Make your mind up dude!

Msfab
29th-December-2006, 04:15 PM
whilst fondling the top buttons of their shirts and touching their arms. :confused: Make your mind up dude!

Can you imagine?:rolleyes: :eek: :rofl:

Trouble
29th-December-2006, 04:30 PM
It's the sound of everyones jaws dropping to the floor as she walks into the building.

God knows why she can't use the door like everyone else :flower:

Becs your on form today :rofl: :rofl:

Miguel
29th-December-2006, 04:54 PM
If a lady knows I am approaching and continues to stare fixedly ahead I take that as a sign that she does not want to be asked.

Reading on:
Just keep looking ahead at the dancers on the floor. You want to give a man the chance to look you over. Only when he touches your arm or verbally asks, "Do you want to dance?", only then look, smile, and nod or say "Sure".

StokeBloke
29th-December-2006, 05:12 PM
Remember this guy is American, and their social etiquette differs from ours quite considerably. We tend to be far more reserved, the Americans may see no problem with all this arm stroking and button fondling.

England and America, two countries separated by one language :wink:

Andreas
29th-December-2006, 06:36 PM
Well, I don't know about the button thing, which appears to me quite intimate and suggestive, but touching the arm? I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I usually do that (with finger tip or back of finger) when I approach a person from the side and ask her to dance.

Msfab
29th-December-2006, 06:46 PM
Well, I don't know about the button thing, which appears to me quite intimate and suggestive, but touching the arm? I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I usually do that (with finger tip or back of finger) when I approach a person from the side and ask her to dance.

Any particular finger?

Andreas
29th-December-2006, 07:12 PM
Any particular finger?
Index finger :na:

Dreadful Scathe
29th-December-2006, 07:27 PM
The person that wrote this is truely Crazy!!!

He certainly is. While analysing social interaction at a dance venue is interesting, there is no guarantee any of what he says will get the reaction he suggests.

e.g. "If a man approaches from the side, don't turn to look at him."

May well be taken as a "not interested" signal. I also find the implication that men have to "look the girl up and down" before asking her to dance. I mean, by the time I'm "approaching" I've already done that ;) and perhaps am asking her because she looks like she wants to dance :rolleyes:

"Simply say, "I want to dance with you.""

you are risking a "thats nice" or "and I want world peace, so" reply :) If you want an answer, ask a question. Most people, I would think but depending on how it was said, would take that as a slightly rude way of asking for a dance.

Jhutch
29th-December-2006, 07:30 PM
If someone tried number 19 then i would probably run off:what: :really: To me the phrase, 'I want to dance with you' sounds more like a chat-up line than anything else which would make me feel a bit awkward thereafter. If you just ask someone if they want to do then doesnt it imply that you want to dance with them?

I haven't been doing ceroc for that long so what i say below may be rubbish but i thought i would quickly go through the points on the salsacrazy page

as for 1) I would agree with that although you normally heat up quite quickly so i cant imagine too many people wearing lots of layers anyway. Only person i had a problem with was someone in a beginner rotation who had a very slippery top on over another top that wasnt very modest - i didn't have the guts to tell her that she may want to take her outer top off:blush:

2) Not really come across this much but it feels a bit awkward putting your hand on the skin of someone you dont know:sad:

3) True, although i don't really like jewellery anyway so i don't really think my views are that relevant,

4) Not really sure it makes much difference to me what shoes she is wearing unless she looks unsteady? At the end of the day, i would imagine that most women wear shoes that make dancing easy anyway.

5) Don't know about saying hello whenever you see anyone but saying it in the class definitely helps as it makes you seem more approachable.

6, 7 and 9) Makes sense

8) True IMO. I am unlikely to ask someone who is talking to friends, etc, especially if they are very engaged in conversation.

10) No idea really what he is talking about here - cant see what difference where you are standing makes?

11, 12, 13, 14) suppose so - someone who looks like they want to dance is far more likely to be asked IMO - why would people ask other people who look as though they dont want to dance?

15) S'pose this could be true. If you look round and find that they are only going to walk past you then it can be a bit embarrassing as well

16-19) As i said above, i dont see what the problem is? If you ask someone to dance and they just say 'no' then it might be a bit disheartening but if they wont give they you a reason then isn't that their fault? Besides, if you say, 'i want to dance with you' they aren't guaranteed to say yes anyway. If I am feeling a bit nervous then i will normally add on a 'or are you feeling tired/in need of a rest' etc.

From my point of view it is a case of trying to look like you want to dance. I suppose that if you find you don't get asked much then you could always ask a friend of the opposite sex why they think you dont get asked?

JiveLad
29th-December-2006, 07:53 PM
Maybe one way to find out the value of these tips is to try them and see what works for you.

Two ladies I know who I forwarded the 19 tips to said "oo-errr" on the "I want to dance with you" tip.........and decided to give it a go and report back.

To me, I would only expect to hear that line from someone I knew - or I had seen around. If it was someone new - hmmm - it just seems too strong.

One thing I have noticed is that quite a few women will approach me and just look at me and hold out a hand - and not say anything - and off we go. Occassionally I look a bit quizzical, then smile and say "aaah.....are you asking me to dance?".

StokeBloke
29th-December-2006, 08:00 PM
The first few points about clothing are a little strange. For example, never once has a girl's footwear had an effect on me asking her to dance. In fact often the girls will be sat at tables hiding their footwear completely.

The only time I didn't ask a girl to dance because of her clothes was a girl who was wearing a top with huge dangling sleeves. Her top looked great, but after struggling to dance with her in the lessons, I decided to avoid her that evening... but that said... if she had asked me, of course I would have accepted.

I am sure more experienced dancers would have been able to cope with working a routine around her wardrobe, but it was too much for my poor brain to try and cope with :waycool:

MartinHarper
29th-December-2006, 08:19 PM
Remember this guy is American, and their social etiquette differs from ours quite considerably. We tend to be far more reserved...

I am concerned by the suggestion that dancers are reserved and shy and prefer to refrain from touching each other. I had been hoping to exploit the twin properties of tactile dancers and static electricity to create a new source of renewable power. I'd say "clean" power, but...


I also find the implication that men have to "look the girl up and down" before asking her to dance.

Probably checking for jewelry, clothes, shoes, attitude, and groove, as detailed in the other tips. :)

StokeBloke
29th-December-2006, 08:23 PM
Probably checking for jewelry, clothes, shoes, attitude, and groove, as detailed in the other tips. :)
Not forgetting the precise proximity of the toes to the edge of the dance floor :wink:

bigdjiver
29th-December-2006, 08:49 PM
The first few points about clothing are a little strange. For example, never once has a girl's footwear had an effect on me asking her to dance...When I was a beginner I used to avoid ladies wearing proper dance shoes, on the basis that they were probably out of my league.



The only time I didn't ask a girl to dance because of her clothes ...Early on there was one lady I, and most other men, avoided. She was beautiful and absolutely beautifully attired. I assumed she was there man-hunting, and also I did not want to risk ruffling her immaculate image. On about the third week it dawned on me that she was not dancing much at all, and I asked her more to find out what was wrong with her than any other reason. She was a superb partner, although preferring a more restrained partner than I. My guess was that the "untouchable" image was deterring the other guys too.

Perhaps the slighty ruffled look is the one to go for.

David Bailey
29th-December-2006, 10:10 PM
Remember this guy is American, and their social etiquette differs from ours quite considerably. We tend to be far more reserved, the Americans may see no problem with all this arm stroking and button fondling.
Also, he's referring to salsa etiquette, so that's another difference.

I don't think his advice is wildly crazy for a (US) salsa venue - but it's not particularly appropriate to a UK MJ venue.

jockey
31st-December-2006, 02:53 PM
I get on average one refusal a night and I refuse half as often.
The refusals I get are nearly always from competition standard dancers. In the absence of any straight talking i am left with the impression that it is beneath them to dance and mix with "lesser lights".
Full marks to the likes of Tas and the Aussies who are willing to dance with anyone..

Lory
31st-December-2006, 03:14 PM
Its quite strange if you dance outside the Midlands and no one knows you, and your an OK dancer people make a bee line for you, but in the Midlands they don't come near you :(


I'm reading this as, the men in the Midlands prefer to dance with ladies who aren't very good? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean? :blush:


Nope, That's exactly what she's saying :sick:

I got asked to dance quite a lot at Daventry :clap:

err, hold on a minute :confused: :tears: :tears:

:rofl:

Northants Girly
31st-December-2006, 03:34 PM
The refusals I get are nearly always from competition standard dancers. :yeah: I've found that too :rolleyes:
In the absence of any straight talking i am left with the impression that it is beneath them to dance and mix with "lesser lights" But they probably do get asked an awful lot though . . . .

Gav
31st-December-2006, 03:53 PM
I got my first proper refusal on Friday night, I feel complete now.
Well, if I'm totally honest it wasn't really a good one, it was a "sorry, I'm knackered", then got up and danced with someone else to the next song!
Ah well, her loss. It did make me feel awkward about asking someone else though, because I wouldn't want them to think that they were second best :confused:
I really wasn't too bothered, because I got lots of direct and indirect compliments that evening. :na:

Lynn
31st-December-2006, 08:15 PM
I got my first proper refusal on Friday night, I feel complete now.
Well, if I'm totally honest it wasn't really a good one, it was a "sorry, I'm knackered", then got up and danced with someone else to the next song!
It may not be personal. That's happened to me a couple of times. I've declined a dance, for a good reason, then another dancer has asked and maybe reminded me I promised him a dance and this is the last one, or he's about to leave. Or you decline a dance because you are tired, and someone else asks and is simply more persistant and talks you into it. In an ideal world when this happens its nice to go back and explain to the person who was refused, or ask them later, but in practice this doesn't always work out.

It did make me feel awkward about asking someone else though, because I wouldn't want them to think that they were second best :confused: Nope, just ask someone else. If you don't then it could seem like no-one else is good enough. I would maybe joke 'Oh, I'll make do will I?' if a guy asked me after a refusal, but it really wouldn't bother me.

Juju
31st-December-2006, 08:38 PM
It may not be personal. That's happened to me a couple of times. I've declined a dance, for a good reason, then another dancer has asked and maybe reminded me I promised him a dance and this is the last one, or he's about to leave. Or you decline a dance because you are tired, and someone else asks and is simply more persistant and talks you into it. In an ideal world when this happens its nice to go back and explain to the person who was refused, or ask them later, but in practice this doesn't always work out.

Yep, these things happen. I don't remember ever refusing or being refused without a good reason.

Note to any "Refusers" who might be reading this: I'm not convinced that "I don't want to" qualifies as a good enough reason in normal circumstances. Dance etiquette exists for a purpose and if everyone behaved like that then I suspect that the whole 'social dancing' scene would change irrevocably and for the worse.

Wes
31st-December-2006, 09:39 PM
I was refused last night :tears:

Whitebeard
31st-December-2006, 11:20 PM
I get on average one refusal a night and I refuse half as often.
The refusals I get are nearly always from competition standard dancers. In the absence of any straight talking i am left with the impression that it is beneath them to dance and mix with "lesser lights".
Full marks to the likes of Tas and the Aussies who are willing to dance with anyone..

OK, they displayed hotshoterish behaviour. Is yours halfhotshoterish ?

Me, I wouldn't venture within twenty feet of a competition standard dancer.

fletch
1st-January-2007, 03:21 PM
There are plenty of legit reasons to get turned down.

injuries, tiredness, sweating to much, argument with husband....


:

so how many times did you get refused at Camber :sick:

FunkyAngel
1st-January-2007, 06:29 PM
There’s only one person I can think of right now whom I feel like that about (and seem to have upset him so much on one occasion by politely saying I was too hot – which I was – that he doesn’t ask now :D result!). Anyone got any good avoidance tips?

I've been doing a lot of asking - it comes with re-starting Ceroc recently not knowing anybody. It's getting less as I get to know people though. :nice: I probably only get refused about once a night although I've had some fairly grudging acceptances. If men never ask me back I do stop asking them after a while....

I do turn down dances. Only with people I've danced with before and had consistently awful dances with though. I currently have a huge bruise on one shoulder from a very rough dance a few days ago - that's one more person I'll avoid dancing with again. My preferred excuse tends to be that our dance styles don't work together. I've never quite worked up the nerve to say No because you hurt my arm so badly last time :eek: . And it happens fairly often too :tears: (unfortunately for me I bruise easily).

FunkyAngel

Andy McGregor
1st-January-2007, 07:52 PM
I've never quite worked up the nerve to say No because you hurt my arm so badly last time :eek: . And it happens fairly often too :tears: (unfortunately for me I bruise easily).

FunkyAngelFirstly, I think that people should let their partners know when they are causing them injuries. And secondly, how do people hurt their partners arms? If it's due to excess tension they are actually hurting their own arms. Some guys do tug, jerk, yank, etc. We all agree that there's no need to tug or jerk, however, IMHO, it's not the tugging or jerking that hurts and causes injury: of course these guys are bad dancers and bad leads, but the injuries to the followers are caused by resistance from the follower. The follower meets the bad leaders force with and equal and opposite force of their own.

The answer to these bad leads is to dance protectively and, hopefully, to educate them into better ways of dancing. When a guy tugs too hard just let your hand follow his in a light way as if you're giving your hand away, don't step back and fight or resist, go with it: maybe you could even let the connection go. In this way the tugging is not transferred to the wrist/elbow/shoulder/back of the follower. You could even say "you don't need to pull me so strongly to get me to follow, I'll go wherever you lead me" possibly you could say "please be gentle with me" :flower:

I find that I can even do this as a leader. Some followers tug or jerk your hand on each back-step. The answer is to maintain tension but to give your hand away to them, maybe accompany this with a quick step forward so you can keep in touch without turning the dance into a wrestling match.

Spin dryer
2nd-January-2007, 01:53 AM
Note to any "Refusers" who might be reading this: I'm not convinced that "I don't want to" qualifies as a good enough reason in normal circumstances. Dance etiquette exists for a purpose and if everyone behaved like that then I suspect that the whole 'social dancing' scene would change irrevocably and for the worse.

In other social situations, for example at a party, you would not refuse to engage with someone because you did not find them attractive, they did not have a beguiling smile, their conversation was less than sparkling, you did not like their dress, they did not meet your eyes or they were too young or old for your liking. If someone affords you the courtesy of conversation you will return it.

Dancing though is an altogether much more intimate form of engagement. I don't believe that anyone should ever turn someone down because they are lacking in aesthetic appeal or because of their ability as a dancer. The unfortunate fact is though that there are some strange people out there and if you don't feel comfortable dancing with someone then you should not feel under any obligation to do so. I know a number of women who have been on the receiving end of unwelcome advances on the dance floor and yet they sometimes still feel obliged to dance with the perpetrators because of this so called dance etiquette.

It goes without saying that any refusal should be done politely and sensitively.

sidney
2nd-January-2007, 11:27 AM
I don't let refusals bother me anymore, as at Daventry last week I had my best night yet in getting good dances all night but that was sheer determination on my part by asking all the good dancers and getting refused a few times some genuine and one guy I asked who I had watched a tall black good looking guy I throught looked good, I asked him he said yes to what I throught was a latin but turned out be a tango which I can do basics well He twil me so hard off balence I nearly fell over and he then said I can't do this tango stuff and just walked off, I think he was worried about his cool image. I then chatted to a formate who was clearly upset, and I throught boyfriend trouble but no she had been turned down three times that night, so I told her about mine in a light hearted way and encourage her to go back out there again as she is a very good dancer, and I hope it does not put her off. There is still one I have not got the courage to ask still and that is the tramp and he look on top form at Dav, but one guy made my night a fantastic dancer, turn me down as he was getting a drink but came to look for me and we had two dances plus he said how good that was so there:grin:

Juju
2nd-January-2007, 11:33 AM
The unfortunate fact is though that there are some strange people out there and if you don't feel comfortable dancing with someone then you should not feel under any obligation to do so. I know a number of women who have been on the receiving end of unwelcome advances on the dance floor and yet they sometimes still feel obliged to dance with the perpetrators because of this so called dance etiquette.

I agree, which is why I said "in normal circumstances".

pawplay
2nd-January-2007, 01:03 PM
The only time i refuse a dance is if the connection was't there on the first dance or they have given me the creeps/ used my leg for alternative moves etc! :eek:

The ONLY person to repeatedly turn me down was a really good dancer at Ealing!! I haven't given him the oppertunity to make me feel that small again!!

I seem to be in the minority of women who find it hard to ask a man (or female lead) for a dance, especially if the more assertive women are out in force! :tears:

Dai
2nd-January-2007, 01:41 PM
...The ONLY person to repeatedly turn me down was a really good dancer at Ealing!! I haven't given him the oppertunity to make me feel that small again!!...

On 31st - at Berko - i asked lots of people for dances, and everyone that i didn't know, and had never danced with before turned me down - bar three people. I had a night of dancing with the group of people i came with, trying to bulid my confidence back up.



... I seem to be in the minority of women who find it hard to ask a man (or female lead) for a dance, especially if the more assertive women are out in force! :tears:

I am a female lead - and i find it very hard to ask women i don't know to dance, i have been told only dancing with your friends will earn you hotshot status - so i try to dance outside of the circle of people i know, but evenings like Berko don't help.

Sparkles
2nd-January-2007, 01:49 PM
I am a female lead - and i find it very hard to ask women i don't know to dance, i have been told only dancing with your friends will earn you hotshot status - so i try to dance outside of the circle of people i know, but evenings like Berko don't help.

Well, personally I'm very glad you came up and introduced yourself at Ashton's B&W and that we had a couple of dances together. It was lovely to meet you, and you are indeed not only a female lead, but a GOOD female lead :worthy:. I hope to see you for some more dances soon.

Unfortunately, as has been discussed a million times on this forum, "role-swapping" (in terms of ladies dancing as leaders and men dancing as followers) is still something that a great many people appear to be adjusting to. I'm not sure exactly *what* the problem is, but it is slowly becoming less of an issue.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy Berko, but my best advice to regain confidence is go to a freestyle in Scotland - I know it's no remedie for where you dance locally, but it will make you feel great in no time! "Role-swapping" is all part of the deal north of the border and you'll have men and women wanting to dance with you as both leaders and followers all night :grin:.

StokeBloke
2nd-January-2007, 01:56 PM
I am a female lead - and i find it very hard to ask women i don't know to dance, i have been told only dancing with your friends will earn you hotshot status - so i try to dance outside of the circle of people i know, but evenings like Berko don't help.
I'll say this really quietly as I'm sure some people tire of hearing it.... come to dance with us at Ceroc Midlands (http://www.cerocmidlands.co.uk/venues.htm)venues we're a really friendly bunch - Stafford is my current favorite... come and say 'hi'. I still haven't been refused a single dance in the midlands yet EVER... now saying that is asking for trouble I know; but it's true all the same!!! :na:

CentrAlex
2nd-January-2007, 02:09 PM
I am a female lead - and i find it very hard to ask women i don't know to dance, i have been told only dancing with your friends will earn you hotshot status - so i try to dance outside of the circle of people i know, but evenings like Berko don't help.

You are my fave Dai and you know it!! Had some fantastic dances with you last night at Ice and everyone loved watching you too whoever you danced with...you are amazing. DD+ says that they really don't know what they are missing out on if they refuse you!

Also, it was really cool to meet so many other forumites...big love to all xxx

:clap: :worthy:

Lynn
2nd-January-2007, 02:41 PM
I seem to be in the minority of women who find it hard to ask a man (or female lead) for a dance, especially if the more assertive women are out in force! :tears:I'm also shy at asking men (locally its different). But if I really want to dance, I'm not going to sit and feel grumpy about not being asked - I will get up and go and ask people. The more I do it, the easier it gets. :D

pawplay
2nd-January-2007, 02:48 PM
[QUOTE=Dai;325191]On 31st - at Berko - i asked lots of people for dances, and everyone that i didn't know, and had never danced with before turned me down - bar three people.


Could have asked me!!!!!:D

fletch
2nd-January-2007, 02:52 PM
I'll say this really quietly as I'm sure some people tire of hearing it.... come to dance with us at Ceroc Midlands (http://www.cerocmidlands.co.uk/venues.htm)venues we're a really friendly bunch - Stafford is my current favorite... come and say 'hi'. I still haven't been refused a single dance in the midlands yet EVER... now saying that is asking for trouble I know; but it's true all the same!!! :na:


I WILL take Dai to the Midlands to dance, but StokeBloke you speak as a male lead and from your experence,which IMO is much, Witty all but NEAVER gets asked for a dance :mad: and I know Dai will not only NOT be asked for a dance she WILL get refused, I had to watch my very good freind BARMPOT be destroyed by these so called freindly Stafford dancers, who IMO are far more 'Hotshot' than anyone I know in London:angry:



You are my fave Dai and you know it!! Had some fantastic dances with you last night at Ice and everyone loved watching you too whoever you danced with...you are amazing. DD+ says that they really don't know what they are missing out on if they refuse you!

Also, it was really cool to meet so many other forumites...big love to all xxx

:clap: :worthy:

:yeah:

embrase the differnce, live and let live :clap:

Double Trouble
2nd-January-2007, 03:03 PM
I don't believe that anyone should ever turn someone down because they are lacking in aesthetic appeal or because of their ability as a dancer.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Say's 'The Refuser' :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Mark....you must have known that either me or my sister would read this. I cant let it go I'm affraid. How many women do you dance with at Cheshunt in relation to how many women at Cheshunt ask you to dance?

StokeBloke
2nd-January-2007, 03:19 PM
I WILL take Dai to the Midlands to dance, but StokeBloke you speak as a male lead and from your experence,which IMO is much, Witty all but NEAVER gets asked for a dance :mad: and I know Dai will not only NOT be asked for a dance she WILL get refused, I had to watch my very good freind BARMPOT be destroyed by these so called freindly Stafford dancers, who IMO are far more 'Hotshot' than anyone I know in London:angry:
How did I know that as soon as I said a good word about Midland venues Fletch would pop up to stamp all over them... and I tried saying it quietly as well - ho hum :waycool:

There is just a tiny possibility that other people's experience of dance venues may differ from yours Fletch. But with you as a guide, with your positive attitude and friendly outlook, how could Dai possibly go wrong? :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

fletch
2nd-January-2007, 03:49 PM
How did I know that as soon as I said a good word about Midland venues Fletch would pop up to stamp all over them... and I tried saying it quietly as well - ho hum :waycool:

There is just a tiny possibility that other people's experience of dance venues may differ from yours Fletch. But with you as a guide, with your positive attitude and friendly outlook, how could Dai possibly go wrong? :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

and hears me thinking that with all your other venue experence you are in a position to comment :mad:

and don't bother trying to say things quietly, if you have somithing to say, say it stand by it, or apologise if your wrong. I do:angry:

Perhaps you should ask otheres about my attitude, I would welcome ANY comments, by indervidual that actually know me in person about just that!:flower:

perhaps you might travel to another venue some day, I will be at Bromsgrove 'T' dance this Sunday, I don't suppose you will be, or it might get frowned on :na:

Achaeco
2nd-January-2007, 04:11 PM
Perhaps you should ask otheres about my attitude, I would welcome ANY comments, by indervidual that actually know me in person about just that!:flower:


I LIKE YOU FLETCH. IVE NEVER BEEN TURNED DOWN BY YOU :love:

Achaeco
2nd-January-2007, 04:13 PM
and hears me thinking that with all your other venue experence you are in a position to comment :mad:

and don't bother trying to say things quietly, if you have somithing to say, say it stand by it, or apologise if your wrong. I do:angry:

Perhaps you should ask otheres about my attitude, I would welcome ANY comments, by indervidual that actually know me in person about just that!:flower:

perhaps you might travel to another venue some day, I will be at Bromsgrove 'T' dance this Sunday, I don't suppose you will be, or it might get frowned on :na:

And on a quieter note.
I have been dancing for 3 years and see fletch at every weekender / Major freestyle ive been to.
Listen to the voice of experience, she gets around.

Love to all

StokeBloke
2nd-January-2007, 04:17 PM
:flower: I just say it as I see it Fletch :flower:

I can't really comment on a lot of what you are saying because in all honesty I don't understand what you are talking about lots of the time. I can sense that there is a lot of old history with you and the venues where I dance..... as I have not seen you in all the months I have been dancing I guess it's happened before I started Cerocing.

I just wish that you could be happy for me and the hundreds of other dancers who are having fun at these venues even if you had a different experience (I saw Barmpot dancing at Wolverhampton last week - I must say hello next time). The dancers at these venues are a very friendly bunch, in spite of what you seem to constantly suggest.

You talk about experience, but where is your experience of me, my attitude, my dance ettiquette, my ability? You have never once been to a venue that I have been at, yet you are tarring me with the 'nasty, unfriendly, hotshot' brush you seem all too happy to wave about when you speak about venues that I persoanlly attend.

I do my best to live and let live, as bile and vitriol don't really suit my easy going personality. I still hope that I will get to dance with you one day, but as I have said previously, weekends are out for me due to other commitments. This does restrict my ability to travel to far flung venues at present. Who knows when that may change :hug: :hug:

Have fun and keep on dancing StokeBloke :flower:

fletch
2nd-January-2007, 04:50 PM
:flower: I just say it as I see it Fletch :flower:

I can't really comment on a lot of what you are saying because in all honesty I don't understand what you are talking about lots of the time. I can sense that there is a lot of old history with you and the venues where I dance..... as I have not seen you in all the months I have been dancing I guess it's happened before I started Cerocing.

I just wish that you could be happy for me and the hundreds of other dancers who are having fun at these venues even if you had a different experience (I saw Barmpot dancing at Wolverhampton last week - I must say hello next time). The dancers at these venues are a very friendly bunch, in spite of what you seem to constantly suggest.

You talk about experience, but where is your experience of me, my attitude, my dance ettiquette, my ability? You have never once been to a venue that I have been at, yet you are tarring me with the 'nasty, unfriendly, hotshot' brush you seem all too happy to wave about when you speak about venues that I persoanlly attend.

I do my best to live and let live, as bile and vitriol don't really suit my easy going personality. I still hope that I will get to dance with you one day, but as I have said previously, weekends are out for me due to other commitments. This does restrict my ability to travel to far flung venues at present. Who knows when that may change :hug: :hug:

Have fun and keep on dancing StokeBloke :flower:


No you don't know, so why keep Stoke...ing the fire :confused:

all the months ???? how many months 2/3 is it now :rolleyes: so in such a short space of time you can comment the way you do?


and this freindly bunch....yes some of my best friends still dance at these venues, but if you had been around for a while, which you haven't, you would know that I don't agree with, inderviduals been 'left out''refussed' etc beacause there are in some way 'a bit different' there are people in the Midlands that do this.....as i'm sure people do all over the country, I just carn't stand by and watch and say nothing :hug:

I am happy for you :flower: as I am for myself after all it if it wasn't for these venues I wouldn't be dancing :sad:

I'm not realy sure why you seem to be twisting what I say, I havn't said YOU are a 'hotshot' or nasty :confused: I speek as I find and I don't know you.:really:


Ho! and rest assured I WILL keep dancing :D

Dai
2nd-January-2007, 05:27 PM
I WILL take Dai to the Midlands to dance, but StokeBloke you speak as a male lead and from your experence,which IMO is much, Witty all but NEAVER gets asked for a dance :mad: and I know Dai will not only NOT be asked for a dance she WILL get refused, I had to watch my very good freind BARMPOT be destroyed by these so called freindly Stafford dancers, who IMO are far more 'Hotshot' than anyone I know in London:angry:

Well - what can i say - can't wait!! Bring on the refusals!!!



:flower: I just say it as I see it Fletch :flower:

I can't really comment on a lot of what you are saying because in all honesty I don't understand what you are talking about lots of the time. I can sense that there is a lot of old history with you and the venues where I dance..... as I have not seen you in all the months I have been dancing I guess it's happened before I started Cerocing.

In all the months that you have been dancing - how long is that now? Ceroc is unfortunately very clicky - and there is always going to be history and bad feelings about things - but that is just normal, you will get used to it. There will always be people that dont get on, in every aspect of life, not just ceroc - not a lot we can do about that.


You talk about experience, but where is your experience of me, my attitude, my dance ettiquette, my ability? You have never once been to a venue that I have been at, yet you are tarring me with the 'nasty, unfriendly, hotshot' brush you seem all too happy to wave about when you speak about venues that I persoanlly attend.

Everybody thinks that their venue is the best - i have been dancing for three years now, and until i went to camber sept/oct i had never danced outside of my local venues. Since then i returned to my local venues again, and ventured as far as oxford for the first time in december. Now guided by friends i have attended probabaly as many freestyles these last three weeks as i have all year. But i will still go back to Northampton and say how wonderful that venue is - its my venue, and all my friends are there. However i'm sure to someone who comes along for a one off - we must seem a little clicky - we like to dance with the people we know - not saying we don't dance with beginners - but new people who dance well are always talked about - who is that, where are they from, have you seen them before ... and all that - its natural.



And on a quieter note.
I have been dancing for 3 years and see fletch at every weekender / Major freestyle ive been to.
Listen to the voice of experience, she gets around.

Love to all

I agree - SB - you should listen to those with a little more experience of these things.




On a different note


Could have asked me!!!!!:D

I am truely sorry that i didn't, i have seen you around - but i guess i have never had the courage - what can i say - i am shy, and i you are good, didn't want you to accept then think i was cr*p. What can i say - next time i see you - i'll ask you.:kiss:

StokeBloke
2nd-January-2007, 05:27 PM
all the months ???? how many months 2/3 is it now :rolleyes: so in such a short space of time you can comment the way you do?Well, you do the maths, four hours (times) three nights a week (times) three months (I consider over 140 hours enough time to work out if the people I'm with are friendly). And even if I had only danced once, I am still entitled to an opinion of the venue/crew.


I just carn't stand by and watch and say nothing :hug: I understand that you feel it is your moral obligation to speak out against wrong-doers. However, you are not doing that Fletch. If you have an issue - let's hear it.

To get 'even' with whomever you have judged as an evil wrong-doer you go further than you should Fletch. By calling the 'people' at these events unfriendly, hotshots, etc you are actually attacking everyone, and not just the person/people you seem to have a specific grievance with.

I do not understand why you choose to do this :confused: You constantly berate the venues that I attend, saying that they are nasty because of the people there... I am one of the people there. A new person. I am not alone. There are many new people who you have never met at these venues. Are we all nasty hotshots who won't ask people to dance? All of us.

You are saying that about me, and Barmpot and every other person that steps inside the door. You are lumping us all together. It is malicious and untrue, and I really would rather you stopped doing it - of course you won't because you see it differently. So I will have to sit here with you pretty much calling me a liar and read your continued negative judgement on me and every other charming person I dance with until... when?


I am happy for you :flower: as I am for myself after all it if it wasn't for these venues I wouldn't be dancing :sad: But by continuing to drag the venues down you run the risk of putting new dancers off from attending and finding the same joy that these places have given to you and I. If you have a specific problem with a specific person, please, please, please take it off of the forum and sort it out. Let the rest of us get on with dancing :flower: :flower: :flower:

I'm not sure how to set my points out any more clearly. But, please pack it in with all the negativity, it's getting really boring babe :what:

fletch
2nd-January-2007, 05:29 PM
I LIKE YOU FLETCH.


I like you to :flower:

I bet that baby is getting big now :hug:

pawplay
3rd-January-2007, 10:59 AM
On a different note


I am truely sorry that i didn't, i have seen you around - but i guess i have never had the courage - what can i say - i am shy, and i you are good, didn't want you to accept then think i was cr*p. What can i say - next time i see you - i'll ask you.:kiss:[/QUOTE]

Wow, this goes down in my major compliment section!!! thank you!!:worthy:

stewart38
3rd-January-2007, 01:44 PM
On 31st - at Berko - i asked lots of people for dances, and everyone that i didn't know, and had never danced with before turned me down - bar three people.





This disappoints me that a regular venue I go to, there are people that refuse on what it appears to be a regular basis. I cant get behind the mind set of people like that.

Did you look scary ??

I hope people had a good time anyway and it wasnt too crowded , seems I missed my fav forum dancer there :tears: :tears: Bloody Tenerife and 75f sun :waycool:

FunkyAngel
3rd-January-2007, 01:57 PM
Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

Dai
3rd-January-2007, 02:34 PM
This disappoints me that a regular venue I go to, there are people that refuse on what it appears to be a regular basis. I cant get behind the mind set of people like that.

Did you look scary ??

I don't think i looked scary - although fletch has described me as scary before... :whistle:

No - i was dressed quite normally. Just the ladies didn't want to dance with a female lead. Oh well - i can't please everybody can i??

David Bailey
3rd-January-2007, 03:03 PM
Ceroc is unfortunately very clicky
I suspect the word "clicky" is verging on Glossary status now...

Anyway, Ceroc / MJ is, in my experience, far less cliquey than most other common partner dance scenes. Salsa, AT, ballroom - they're all much more cliquey and less friendly than MJ.

Whenever people gather together, there'll be cliques. It's unavoidable. But MJ is much less affected in most places than other dance forms.

Some venues are more cliquey than others - for example, and God knows why, most venues in SW London are occasionally affected by some degree of snootiness (Fulham, Ealing, Hammersmith). But the MJ dance form lends itself to a high level of friendliness.


Everybody thinks that their venue is the best
Obviously, most people prefer their regular venues, that's why those are their regular venues :)

But I certainly don't think my venue is the best. In fact, I don't have a "my venue", so I can't.


I am a female lead - and i find it very hard to ask women i don't know to dance, i have been told only dancing with your friends will earn you hotshot status - so i try to dance outside of the circle of people i know, but evenings like Berko don't help.
I imagine that as a female lead (only?), you'll probably get a lot more refusals in a strange venue - I don't think Berko is particularly unfriendly as a venue generally. But perhaps I'm just Part Of The Clique :)

Gav
3rd-January-2007, 03:13 PM
Everybody thinks that their venue is the best


No. My venue is merely the only one I can get to when I have the spare time. It is far from the best.

LMC
3rd-January-2007, 03:27 PM
I imagine that as a female lead (only?), you'll probably get a lot more refusals in a strange venue - I don't think Berko is particularly unfriendly as a venue generally. But perhaps I'm just Part Of The Clique :)
:yeah: (my bold. On the fairly likely assumption that DJ means 'strange' as in unknown rather than strange as, well, strange)

I've never turned down an unknown female who asks me (although if I've been leading that night, I will check whether they want to lead or follow in case they have seen me leading - occasionally it's a beginner who is just desperate to dance and there aren't enough men to go around). But it is unusual for women to ask for dances as leads. (Think we may have danced somewhere at some point Dai, recognise your profile pic :))

The whole partner dance culture is man + woman. It's not necessarily about sex (thank God, in many cases :eek: ) - maybe it's a pheromone thing (shrug). Unfortunately, some people don't want to go out of their comfort zone with people they don't know. I have to say that no matter how good their lead is, dancing a blues track with an *unknown* female lead is NOT the same as dancing it with a man. It just isn't. (Dancing a blues track with a female friend/known female lead is different again.)

Anyway, back on topic - I turn people down if I don't want to dance with them. But I'm always polite about it. Not many people have confessed to lying about getting a drink/needing a break/shoe change/shirt change if they don't want to hurt the asker's feelings and would dance with them another time. Well, I always knew I'm odd and Evil.

stewart38
3rd-January-2007, 04:39 PM
Anyway, back on topic - I turn people down if I don't want to dance with them. But I'm always polite about it. Not many people have confessed to lying about getting a drink/needing a break/shoe change/shirt change if they don't want to hurt the asker's feelings and would dance with them another time. Well, I always knew I'm odd and Evil.



Not sure why a women asking a women and getting refused more is ‘off topic’ anyway

Is it better to lie i.e. im getting a drink rather then no F*** O**

I had a forumite who once said they were too tired and then 30 secs later danced with someone else , I think id preferred the F*** O** approach more direct

I personally don’t have a philosophy of tuning down people I don’t want to dance with, maybe I should .Ill dance with anyone unless as said before I really need a pee or like at Ashtons just need to get of the floor for 30 secs to get fresh air

Clive Long
3rd-January-2007, 04:54 PM
<< snip >>
I personally don’t have a philosophy of tuning down people I don’t want to dance with, maybe I should .Ill dance with anyone unless as said before I really need a pee or like at Ashtons just need to get of the floor for 30 secs to get fresh air
Very noble, I expect nothing less from you Stewart.

In fact, you have just opened up a whole new tactic for ladies hunting a dance partner.

If he says, "I'd love to, but I'm busting for a pee"

Then, dah-dah, the lady produces a sample bottle, with no-return valve and a large (or small) handkerchief to spare blushes all round so the gent can relieve himself without all the troublesome bother of leaving the dance floor. Of course, the bottle would need to suitably marked so it wasn't confused with Ashtons' tap water and could be picked up for disposal (by the lucky lady, of course) at a later time.

Glad to be of service.

No don't mention it. You're too kind ...

Gav
3rd-January-2007, 05:01 PM
Then, dah-dah, the lady produces a sample bottle, with no-return valve and a large (or small) handkerchief to spare blushes all round so the gent can relieve himself without all the troublesome bother of leaving the dance floor. Of course, the bottle would need to suitably marked so it wasn't confused with Ashtons' tap water and could be picked up for disposal (by the lucky lady, of course) at a later time.


Or simply hold his hand and insist on escorting him to the gents to watch him pee, just to make sure he's not making it up. When you both return, hey presto, ready for that dance.
You may want to not take note of how many men fail to wash their hands before leaving. :sick:

Double Trouble
3rd-January-2007, 05:24 PM
You may want to not take note of how many men fail to wash their hands before leaving. :sick:

Which is why I wash my hands about 20 times a night when dancing. :sick:

MartinHarper
3rd-January-2007, 05:31 PM
I'd like to contrast these two comments, both from dancers who have discovered that their regular venues have come across as unfriendly or cliquey to other dancers (maybe only a few):


You are tarring me with the 'nasty, unfriendly, hotshot' brush you seem all too happy to wave about when you speak about venues that I personally attend.


This disappoints me that a regular venue I go to, there are people that refuse on what it appears to be a regular basis. I cant get behind the mind set of people like that.

I like to think that my regular venues are reasonably friendly, but I have to rely on others to let me know whether they really are. So far Ceroc Worcester seems to get high marks for friendliness, which is great to hear. One of my other local venues (no names) has been criticised because folks spend a lot of time sitting down and talking during the freestyle portions, which makes it relatively intimidating. The question is, what should I do about that?

stewart38
3rd-January-2007, 05:33 PM
Very noble, I expect nothing less from you Stewart.

In fact, you have just opened up a whole new tactic for ladies hunting a dance partner.

If he says, "I'd love to, but I'm busting for a pee"



No don't mention it. You're too kind ...

I would never tell a ‘lady’ I need go for a pee

Its I need a ‘wee wee’

Or I think im of to the toilets want to join me ??

Or I need a pee but its ok now shake your leg and say shall we dance ??

Maybe you need another thread re how one would like to be turned down, I think **** taking ie, im too tired but then 30 secs alter dance someone else is worse then no thank you and then dance with someone else ??? or is it ?? That is of thread

David Bailey
3rd-January-2007, 05:40 PM
I like to think that my regular venues are reasonably friendly, but I have to rely on others to let me know whether they really are.
:yeah:
By definition, most people think their own regular local venue is lovely and friendly. Because it is - to them.

Which is why I'm a big fan of "stranger feedback" - yes it's subjective, yes it's a snapshot, but I've often found that the "first impression" review is more accurate and informative than the "I've been going for 10 years and it's perfect" review.

In my opinion, this applies to venues, teachers, DJs, you name it.

StokeBloke
3rd-January-2007, 05:41 PM
Maybe you need another thread re how one would like to be turned downThe best turn down line there is must be "Yes, I would love to dance with you" :D

Seriously, I'm sure the only turn down that doesn't sting (as much) is one that rings true.

StokeBloke
3rd-January-2007, 05:49 PM
The question is, what should I do about that?This is such a valid point Martin. Is there a way to get this feedback where it is needed - IE to the person running the event. Not sure how that would/could work. Suggestion or feedback slips at the venue perhaps. Equally as important is what is going well. So maybe an anonymous form with 'I liked...' and 'I disliked..' left on the tables with some biros for the guests for fill in.

Do you think that if this information could be fed back to the organiser, it would be of benefit to us all?

Dai
3rd-January-2007, 05:57 PM
Do you think that if this information could be fed back to the organiser, it would be of benefit to us all?

Well only if the venue manager is prepared to take on board the critisims that others have to offer. Otherwise what good will it do - it will just cause trouble, upset, and result in threats, nastiness and name calling.

Double Trouble
3rd-January-2007, 05:59 PM
it will just cause trouble, upset, and result in threats, nastiness and name calling.

OH...Oh...OOOoooohhhh. When can I start?:devil:

StokeBloke
3rd-January-2007, 06:30 PM
Well only if the venue manager is prepared to take on board the critisims that others have to offer. Otherwise what good will it do - it will just cause trouble, upset, and result in threats, nastiness and name calling.
If the forms were anonymous I can't see how it would result in nastiness - stuff that is obviously vitriolic would just get filed under T for trash. The idea of suggestion forms is to get a general gauge, so if half a dozen people were all saying (for example) they didn't like the wierdo lindy music this would show a general feeling and may get acted upon.

It would at the very least give the shyer people somewhere to gripe :wink:

Gav
3rd-January-2007, 06:35 PM
One of my other local venues (no names) has been criticised because folks spend a lot of time sitting down and talking during the freestyle portions, which makes it relatively intimidating. The question is, what should I do about that?

Take a gun, and John Wayne style, shoot near their feet until they dance. :D

SuzyQ
3rd-January-2007, 06:39 PM
I have found the so-called cliquey venues not to be bad at all. I have been made to feel quite welcome at Hammersmith, Ealing etc. The key thing is to work out who the serial refusers are (no names mentioned) and not to bother asking!

I also agree that it is OK to turn people down sometimes if you need to pee/change shirt/catch breath/hate a track/or need to avoid a creep! I once had someone say he knew where I lived cos he had looked at my resident's permit on my car - no way would I dance with him again:really: !!

My main problem is sometimes feeling too rubbish to ask anyone for fear of being turned down and just really really wanting someone to ask me for a change! But it's my problem – not anyone else’s!

SuzyQ
3rd-January-2007, 06:57 PM
We had a comments book at our venue until recently ... might be time to resurrect it!

But ... back to the topic of the thread there is little any venue organiser can do to make people stop refusing ... though if, as a member of crew, I heard about anyone at our venue misbehaving and spoiling someone's night I'd have no qualms about getting the venue manager to have a word. But then we only get nice people at our venue :)

Dai
3rd-January-2007, 06:59 PM
If the forms were anonymous I can't see how it would result in nastiness - stuff that is obviously vitriolic would just get filed under T for trash. The idea of suggestion forms is to get a general gauge, so if half a dozen people were all saying (for example) they didn't like the wierdo lindy music this would show a general feeling and may get acted upon.

It would at the very least give the shyer people somewhere to gripe :wink:

The problem is that posts are not anonymous, which is why threads get personal and removed to "take it outside". Most of the people on here have meet one or two if not several forumites, so how can it be anonymous?

FunkyAngel
3rd-January-2007, 07:15 PM
On 31st - at Berko - i asked lots of people for dances, and everyone that i didn't know, and had never danced with before turned me down - bar three people. I had a night of dancing with the group of people i came with, trying to bulid my confidence back up.



Dai - I really enjoyed dancing with you at Berko that evening.:grin: Yes I know WittyBird introduced us so it wasn't quite the same as asking someone at random (thanks Witty!).

I would say you're in a difficult situation though. I've never been asked to dance by a female lead I didn't know before so would probably be very surprised if it happened. And I can easily see how people are surprised enough to just panic and say no thanks....

Strangely enough the only time I have been asked to dance by a woman I didn't know at all she wanted me to lead - which I can't. For some reason she assumed I could :eek: . Made for an interesting chat but of course we didn't actually go on to dance... Do you think some women might assume they're being expected to lead?

That or they've seen you dancing with CentrAlex &/or Jamie and are just plain intimidated...

Obviously we just need some more female leads out there and people will start getting used to the idea. Any volunteers? I can't think and dance at the same time so that rules me out....

FunkyAngel

PS Sorry for previous blank post - the excessive work firewall system thinks I was posting something offensive.

MartinHarper
3rd-January-2007, 07:33 PM
Do you think that if this information could be fed back to the organiser, it would be of benefit to us all?

I think organisers have a very important role to play in making their venues friendly, but that wasn't what I was thinking of. It's just as much the responsibility of ordinary dancers like you and I to make our venues friendly and approachable for outsiders (if that's the image we'd like to have in the wider MJ world). Partly by being friendly ourselves, partly by leading by example, partly by chatting about it from time to time.

StokeBloke
3rd-January-2007, 07:41 PM
So maybe an anonymous form with 'I liked...' and 'I disliked..' left on the tables with some biros for the guests for fill in?


The problem is that posts are not anonymous, which is why threads get personal and removed to "take it outside". Most of the people on here have meet one or two if not several forumites, so how can it be anonymous?

I was talking about putting a comments form on the table at the venues themselves Dai, I think that's workable, or as SuzyQ said, a comments book.

How about an 0800 number we could pin to our backs like the one's you see on vans and taxis... How's my dancing 0800 1234567 :waycool:

TheTramp
4th-January-2007, 11:15 AM
There is still one I have not got the courage to ask still and that is the tramp

I don't bite. Honest!


On 31st - at Berko - i asked lots of people for dances, and everyone that i didn't know, and had never danced with before turned me down - bar three people.


Could have asked me!!!!!:D

Or me. But I enjoyed the dance at Ice though :hug:


Anyway, Ceroc / MJ is, in my experience, far less cliquey than most other common partner dance scenes. Salsa, AT, ballroom - they're all much more cliquey and less friendly than MJ.

Whenever people gather together, there'll be cliques. It's unavoidable. But MJ is much less affected in most places than other dance forms.

Some venues are more cliquey than others - for example, and God knows why, most venues in SW London are occasionally affected by some degree of snootiness (Fulham, Ealing, Hammersmith). But the MJ dance form lends itself to a high level of friendliness.

I'd agree. I think that on the whole, most MJ venues aren't particularly cliquey, in the sense that most people will dance if asked. But, if they go with their friends, then most people will dance with their friends. At Ice, I imagine that the people watching us all dancing up at the bar, thought that we were a pretty cliquey group. But nothing could be further from the truth of course! :rolleyes:

Oh, and where were you DJ?? :tears:

StokeBloke
4th-January-2007, 12:15 PM
There is still one I have not got the courage to ask still and that is the tramp and he ....
I was recently cured of my she's-far-too-awesome-to-dance-with-me fear. I have been grinning from ear to ear for days now :D <-like that only bigger

The girl I was scared to ask is simply beyond description :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: I mean dips, drops, air steps, the whole nine yards, and then there was lil ol' me, fresh faced and wide eyed with just three months of dancing experience in my whole life! I mean how could I possibly....???

If you do anything at all this year Sidney, ask, ask, ask... I was amazed at how wonderful dancing with someone who is truly awesome can be. I'll shut up now before I go into full on gush overload! But :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D ohhh and :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D OK.... sorry... I'll shut up :blush:

TheTramp
4th-January-2007, 12:19 PM
The girl I was scared to ask is simply beyond description :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: I mean dips, drops, air steps, the whole nine yards...

Does she dance too?? :rolleyes:

David Bailey
4th-January-2007, 12:33 PM
Oh, and where were you DJ?? :tears:
Watching Torchwood :)


Does she dance too?? :rolleyes:
:rofl: That's exactly what I thought - our minds are becoming one... :eek:

TheTramp
4th-January-2007, 12:36 PM
Watching Torchwood :)

You don't have a video then? I was looking forward to a dance! :yum:


:rofl: That's exactly what I thought - our minds are becoming one... :eek:

Ummm.... :eek:

TheTramp
4th-January-2007, 12:37 PM
Hey DS. Look at my rep score.... :D

WittyBird
4th-January-2007, 12:39 PM
I was recently cured of my she's-far-too-awesome-to-dance-with-me fear. I have been grinning from ear to ear for days now :D <-like that only bigger


I'm sorry I have no recollection of us dancing whatsoever :flower:

StokeBloke
4th-January-2007, 12:50 PM
I'm sorry I have no recollection of us dancing whatsoever :flower:
Well you were pretty drunk at the time :flower: :hug: :flower:

Dai
4th-January-2007, 12:50 PM
I'm sorry I have no recollection of us dancing whatsoever :flower:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Juju
4th-January-2007, 01:24 PM
I don't bite. Honest!

I actually danced with you once, wa-a-ay back at the first Southport, when I was just a beginner. I was bloody terrified but was forcing myself to ask all the best dancers. Funnily enough, I spotted you at Daventry last week but didn't ask - partly because it's a bit weird now I've communicated with you on here (I sort of know you but don't, if you see what I mean) and partly because three years on, if I screw up, I can no longer fall back on that "hey, I'm just a beginner" line any more. :sad:

sidney
4th-January-2007, 01:43 PM
Same here with me Juju, I danced with the tramp a couple of years ago when I had not been dancing long in Leics and the music was a lindy one and I made a complete mess of it, so now when I want to have a return one that memory springs up, so I lose my nerve, but NEXT time I bump into you I will:nice:

stewart38
4th-January-2007, 02:01 PM
I'd like to contrast these two comments, both from dancers who have discovered that their regular venues have come across as unfriendly or cliquey to other dancers (maybe only a few):





I like to think that my regular venues are reasonably friendly, but I have to rely on others to let me know whether they really are. So far Ceroc Worcester seems to get high marks for friendliness, which is great to hear. One of my other local venues (no names) has been criticised because folks spend a lot of time sitting down and talking during the freestyle portions, which makes it relatively intimidating. The question is, what should I do about that?


Not really relevant to my comment as it turned out it was a women asking other women to dance

Many women will find that odd sorry , not a reflection on how cliquey a venue is, just a fact of life :sick:

TheTramp
5th-January-2007, 03:56 PM
I actually danced with you once, wa-a-ay back at the first Southport, when I was just a beginner. I was bloody terrified but was forcing myself to ask all the best dancers. Funnily enough, I spotted you at Daventry last week but didn't ask - partly because it's a bit weird now I've communicated with you on here (I sort of know you but don't, if you see what I mean) and partly because three years on, if I screw up, I can no longer fall back on that "hey, I'm just a beginner" line any more. :sad:

Why not? I use it after 7.5 years. Although, my NY resolution is to stop!


Same here with me Juju, I danced with the tramp a couple of years ago when I had not been dancing long in Leics and the music was a lindy one and I made a complete mess of it, so now when I want to have a return one that memory springs up, so I lose my nerve, but NEXT time I bump into you I will:nice:

I'm sure that you can just blame the lead. I'll try to do better next time.... :hug:

WittyBird
5th-January-2007, 06:19 PM
Well you were pretty drunk at the time :flower: :hug: :flower:

Funny that, because I haven't got drunk and danced since I came off the medication in June :D

fletch
5th-January-2007, 06:43 PM
fresh faced and wide eyed with just three months of dancing experience in my whole life! I mean how could I possibly....???

:


goodness I keep forgetting your still new,:whistle: as you seem to be the font of all knowledge :rolleyes:

I'm sorry I have no recollection of us dancing whatsoever :flower:


he hadn't started dancing when I took you to the Midlands :rolleyes:


Well you were pretty drunk at the time :flower: :hug: :flower:


she would have to be :na: :D

StokeBloke
5th-January-2007, 07:00 PM
goodness I keep forgetting your still new,:whistle: as you seem to be the font of all knowledge :rolleyes:
You know I much prefer my eagerness and enthusiasm being misinterpreted as arrogance than to actually being just being plain arrogant :rolleyes: :whistle:

fletch
5th-January-2007, 07:44 PM
just being plain arrogant :rolleyes: :whistle:

you said it :wink: :D

Dai
5th-January-2007, 07:45 PM
Ladies Ladies - handbags at dawn is it??

fletch
5th-January-2007, 07:50 PM
Ladies Ladies - handbags at dawn is it??

don't leave it on the floor I will dance around it :rofl:

StokeBloke
5th-January-2007, 08:03 PM
you said it :wink: :D

Just enough of learning to misquote. - Lord Byron

MartinHarper
6th-January-2007, 01:26 AM
Funny that, because I haven't got drunk and danced since I came off the medication in June :D

Witty's just high on life and high on the causes of life.

fletch
6th-January-2007, 10:16 AM
Witty's just high on life and high on the causes of life.

:yeah:

CentrAlex
6th-January-2007, 05:50 PM
What's this thread about again??

WittyBird
6th-January-2007, 05:56 PM
What's this thread about again??

Get with the programme CA, it's about me, it's always about me :rofl:

CentrAlex
6th-January-2007, 06:06 PM
Get with the programme CA, it's about me, it's always about me :rofl:

Of course...silly me...how could I forget about you!

Who are you again??

fletch
6th-January-2007, 06:29 PM
Get with the programme CA, it's about me, it's always about me :rofl:


CA don't forget me :na:





Who are you again??

I don't know her, what venues does she go to do you know :confused:

:rofl: :rofl:

miss you WB :flower:

CentrAlex
7th-January-2007, 10:10 PM
CA don't forget me :na:




I don't know her, what venues does she go to do you know :confused:

:rofl: :rofl:

miss you WB :flower:

I would never forget you babes...

I don't know where she dances...probably somewhere like stoke...:confused:

Miss you more WB xx :love: :kiss: :D and miss you too Fletchster!

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
7th-January-2007, 10:22 PM
Everyone has their own reasons for refusing dances, I haven't danced in a couple of months but i'm pretty sure I have in the past, don't take it to heart. I suposse you could also take into account people turning away when you are walking towards them to ask or walking in the other direction as a refusal as well if it's pretty obvious they knew you were going to ask them. You could analyse this for ages, and I suposse you have as it's gone 9 pages already.

ash

Lynn
7th-January-2007, 11:55 PM
A couple of leads that I didn't dance much with last night, explained that they were focusing on dancing with as many women as possible, to ensure the less experienced ones had a good evening. For several of the women there last night it was their first freestyle and they were too shy to ask. But it made me think and I don't think any of our local dancers would refuse - other than for very valid reasons.

I'm proud of our local guys.:love:

DianaS
8th-January-2007, 12:05 PM
These days I am more likely to refuse a dance than when I just began cas most people know me now and aren't likely to take it personally.
Reasons
I'm sitting out cas i'm hot/ tired / sweaty/ waiting for some one/ feet are hurting
I'll invite them to join me though and that seems okay. Often later we will dance

More recently I refused a dance with a guy who made a bee line for me when a smoochy number comes on cas I feel that I'm been hit on.
A friend commented when she observed me turn him down for Fire when he ran across the room "oh is it one of those if you start me off now I'll finish myself off later" attributed to Fletch
I kind of agreed.

main reasons
1 I didn't know him at all
2 I was walking off the floor and away from people (I have a none dancing partner and its started to affect how I dance, who I dance with and how close I allow a total stranger to get to me)
3 he gave me the creeps (here's a number I can rub myself up some to. Oh and here's a free woman)

Urrggh

fletch
8th-January-2007, 01:11 PM
.
A friend commented when she observed me turn him down for Fire when he ran across the room "oh is it one of those if you start me off now I'll finish myself off later" attributed to Fletch
I kind of agreed.




I think I took him off your hands later, bless
:flower:

DianaS
8th-January-2007, 02:57 PM
That's what I call a mate! Thanks Fletch xx

fletch
8th-January-2007, 03:01 PM
That's what I call a mate! Thanks Fletch xx

any time you know i'm not fussy :wink: :D

StokeBloke
9th-January-2007, 02:25 AM
I was recently cured of my she's-far-too-awesome-to-dance-with-me fear. I have been grinning from ear to ear for days now :D <-like that only bigger
OK! ! ! First night back at my 'home' venue after the holidays and she was there. I asked her to dance properly tonight - and you know when something comes together... all of it, the right music, the right moves, the right timing, hitting a break, I mean.... everything..... it was magical.

I waited at the edge of the dance floor whilst she was dancing with a really experienced dancer thinking 'he's going to be a hard act to follow' and thinking 'I hope the DJ is kind to me and I get a nice slow record' - so I would have plenty of thinking time you understand :D ! All the usual confidence worries that us guys can have. The track faded out, she spotted me and headed my way - no asking - we were dancing - we walked onto the floor to the opening beats of Fever! If I had bribed the DJ he couldn't have done better for me!

We danced and the world stopped! She was amazing. She just glides effortlessly across the floor like nobody I have ever danced with :respect: I tried to time a move so that we would hit the pause in the track at the right moment (you know the bit where there is a pause just after the "FEVER!" bit) and it worked to perfection. I swizzled her in - paused right on the silent beat face to face, eye to eye, standing still in the middle of the floor... then as the music restarted with my heart we mambo'd. Oh boy, the gods of Ceroc[tm] were smiling on me tonight. I must have been a very good boy in a past life :D :D :D

I love dancing :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Not sure if this post belongs on this thread, but currently I'm as high as a kite and I don't really care! :whistle: