Lady needing guidance

[purplehyacinth]

This is the problem.

I have been doing Ceroc for the princely total of 3.5 months (give or take a week or so). The problem I have is that as Ceroc is soooo man-led, I can end up doing a class and coming out virtually unable to remember what the class covered. My previous dancing background is one where either (a) I have been dancing semi-independently, or (b) allowed to dance as a man, or (c), on occasion back-leading hapless males - so I could be proactive and learn to the point of retaining stuff in my memory. Ceroc, however, is predominantly reactive from the lady's perspective, which means that my brain doesn't always engage fully.

But in my first ceroc class I was given to understand that ladies are encouraged to dance as ladies, and from the forum I gather that back-leading is one of the ultimate sins.

So what is the solution? Can I break the rules and start dancing as a man occasionally?

Or does anyone have any other helpful hints and tips which could help?

All contributions gratefully received.

[TheTramp]

Of course you can do whatever you like in class. You pay your money. It's up to you. And there are lots of women who do the classes as leads.

However, unless you're one of those people who take to Ceroc like the proverbial duck to water, then I advise against it.

Most ladies when they start (and quite often several years later!) have a tendancy to anticipate moves and also back-lead. Following is a skill that in most cases, has to be learnt, and practised.

There are a number of excellent female dancers around who can both lead and follow. My experience of some female dancers doing both though, is that they tend not to be particularly good at following. I think that it's a good idea to become adept in one skill, before you start learning another. Of course, since I don't know who you are, I will say that it's entirely possible, especially if you have previous partnered dance experience, that you are adept. However, for most people, 3.5 months is barely enough to have moved into the intermediate stage, and feel comfortable both doing the class, and learning to follow.

I would say that from the followers perspective, classes don't always particularly help in learning moves - after all, generally you don't need to learn moves, you need to learn how to follow them (with some nice style might help too!). So probably freestyle is the place where you'll learn more - both by dancing, and watching other experienced girls dance. In that way, it's not quite the same as other dances. However, that doesn't mean that you'll never learn anything in a class - especially again after only 3.5 months!

From your post, it sounds as if you want to improve as a dancer. Can you honestly say that in 3.5 months you've progressed so far as a follow, that you are ready to move on? If so, I'll look forward to a dance with you! :flower:

Hope this helps. Even if it's probably not what you were hoping to hear!

[Dorothy]

Hi purpleheather, I can empathise with you, although I am passionate about ceroc I also dance other styles incl ballroom, and find ceroc restrictive and limited for the same reasons as you outline. I agree with TheTramp's post re. following being a skill- you need to learn the art of "responding" quickly, and perhaps 'loosen up' a bit.
The thing is that as you get better, & if you are one of the people that thetramp is referring to, ie you become "intermediate" within a few months, you might start experimenting with footwork and playing with rhithms, and this is when 'some' men (dare i say the less gifted ceroc dancer) misinterpret what you are doing as back-leading. This mustn't be confused with anticipating, which is a big no-no.
Good luck & hope that helps :rolleyes:

[Wouldbe]

The thing is that as you get better, & if you are one of the people that thetramp is referring to, ie you become "intermediate" within a few months, you might start experimenting with footwork and playing with rhythms, and this is when 'some' men (dare i say the less gifted ceroc dancer) misinterpret what you are doing as back-leading. This mustn't be confused with anticipating, which is a big no-no.
Good luck & hope that helps :rolleyes:

:yeah: My advice would be to concentrate on the tips the teacher gives about ladies' footwork and style points. Often, they're ignored by someone struggling too much with a move because they're too worried about getting the mechanics right. Perhaps if you made the physical connection between the guy's lead and the details of what your feet/spare arm/hips could or should be doing, how much resistance to give etc, this would give you more incentive to take on board how the move works and make it look great from your point of view at the same time.

The teacher at one of my venues always reinforces that if you're wanting to improve any area of your dancing, that you should go back to basics and work with the beginner's moves. Don't rush ahead to the intermediate class if you're not happy with all the beginner's moves. You can always ask extra questions of your taxi dancers/other experienced dancers to help you improve.

I think it's great that you've spotted the issue and have been honest about it to start with. So many ladies have no clue/don't admit there might be anything amiss because they don't feel themselves taxed by the moves and they think they're doing exactly what they're meant to. This can end up with them becoming harder to dance with because they anticipate (classic seems to be the first move pushspin) or even look like they're not really enjoying the dance. Unfortunately, I'm often guilty of not asking them for another dance. :blush:

As a lead, I like to take control of the sequence of moves but allow the follower some freedom to respond in her/his own way, for example taking an extra beat to wiggle, or make the move bigger, more flamboyant etc if they want. The dancers I like dancing with most are those who approach the dance with energy - you kind of bounce off each other then. Achieving that balance with every lead you encounter is a massive task and those who achieve it deserve ultimate :respect:!

Anyway, hope this helps, though I've rambled on somewhat!:nice:

[MartinHarper]

Out of curiosity, what experience do you have in previous dance forms?

From your post, it sounds like you prefer dancing as a lead (aka "as a man"). If that's the way you feel, then do the classes as a lead, dance in freestyle as a lead, and forget about following except when asked in freestyle.
On the other hand, if you enjoy both leading and following, and like the variety, then I recommend mixing leading and following.
If you prefer following, but find it hard to learn in classes, then there are certainly things you can do about that in terms of approaching classes differently.
If you prefer following, but find it too restrictive, then it's possible that Ceroc is not the dance for you. Other dances, notably WCS, are more female-centric.

Trampy may be right that, by spending time leading, you won't reach the peak of following excellence quite as quickly as you otherwise would. So it depends what you want. If you want to be an international dancing sensation, and you meet the other prerequisites for that (young, slim, attractive, natural balance, good kinaesthesia, dancing since age 5, etc), then do what he says.
If, on the other hand, you're dancing Ceroc for enjoyment, then I recommend ignoring him and doing what you want. If you're having fun then you'll learn faster, regardless of whether you're following a technically optimal route.

[ducasi]

Hi Heather,

I was talking about people like you with Freudian Hips last night – dancers who are new to ceroc, but either have some other dance experience, or who are just natural dancers – and how the ceroc experience isn't well tailored to you.

I have found a few times that dancing in the beginner class and with beginners can taint these dancers abilities, making them more likely to anticipate or suffer one of the other unfortunate habits of a typical beginner.

I think that although there's definitely a role for classes for these folks, plenty of freestyle experience with a good range of dancers is more important.

As for yourself...

Ceroc, however, is predominantly reactive from the lady's perspective, which means that my brain doesn't always engage fully. FH and many other followers will tell you that you should be trying to switch your brain off when you are in class. You are not there to learn moves, but instead to learn the vocabulary of the dance. This is learnt through "muscle memory", rather than in the conscious mind. It is better that you can learn the dance without learning the moves, so that you can better follow dancers who don't stick with moves as taught in class.

That said, if you want to use your brain for some purpose while dancing, you'll want to work on style, musicality and a bit of hijacking.

There are two routes to this. First, watch the best followers around you and see what they do. In particular, Lorna, Emma, and Sheena are worth watching and asking for advice. Second, get to as many technique workshops as you can. Hopefully in the new year Franck will restart his "Focus" workshops, and perhaps there will be another ladies style workshop soon. Weekenders also usually have a lot of good content.

As for trying out leading, I agree with Trampy and Martin – if you want to be the best follower you can be, you might want to hold back from learning to lead at the moment. But at the same time, if it's something you really want to do, then go for it.

Hope this helps. :flower:

(I wonder if knowing who you are has changed what my response would have been... I hope not. ;))

[Dai]

Hi,

I have been dancing for about three years now, my first ever lesson was a woman, and i didn't enjoy it in the slightest, i then spent the next three years joining in the classes and dancing as a man - learning to lead. I must say i much prefered leading rather than following. To a certain extent because i lead, i can follow some moves - the begginers move i guess in an acceptable manor - but by no means do i follow well.

Leading has helped me learn to follow - but freestyle is the place to improve. Dance with as many leads (not all leads are men) as you can, from a range of abilities - and you will soon pick up tips. The most important thing is not to think about what move you are being lead through - as this will cause you to anticipate. But just follow the leads hands, give enough resistance, buit otherwise relax. Things like the extra wiggle at the end of a move, arm movements... all go well on the way to making you look better, and getting asked for more dances.

I agree that if you learn to lead then your following is hindered - but then thats logical if you practice one thing - then you are not going to get better at something else without prcaticing that as well are you? When i am lead (rarely) they will do a move, and i'll click oh its that move - that feels terrible to follow, and that helps me adapt my freestyle as to change these parts of moves. So there are positives and negatives for leading - but i think i agree with the others, unless you would prefer to lead - you are probably better off learning to follow first. Go to as many workshops and freestyles as you can. But above all - just have fun.

[StokeBloke]

This is just my 2p's worth. I have only been dancing and leading for a couple of months so this may be different for more experienced dancers.

In an attempt to make a dance interesting and fun for myself and my partner I will do my best to chop things about a bit. This only works if the follower follows. If they anticipate what they think is about to happen and I change the move it goes horribly wrong. This causes my confidence to mix-it-up to crash through the floor and the follower will usually get two or three 1st move variations whilst I gather my thoughts back together and then the last three minutes of textbook moves and returns. It seems to be the more experienced dancers who tend to anticipate moves* - maybe they are trying to help?

What I think I'm saying is, this bloke personally finds a girl who can follow a lead well an absolute joy to dance with. It takes a razor sharp mind to follow an imaginitive guy's lead - let alone a stumbling newbie like me!

Like I said, just my 2p's worth :grin:


*This is very different to following a guys move when it's not as clear as it should be.

[Freudian Hips]

Hi Purpleheather

I have been cerocing 6 months now after a lifetime of ballet, contemporary, tap blah blah blah.... Ceroc blew my mind at first. :eek: All my dance life I have known exactly how I am going to get from a to b via what moves, with myself pretty much in perfect control of all the variables. :D
Suddenly, with Ceroc, not only did I not know what was going to happen but it was better that I tried not to know. :confused:

My aim in ceroc these days, as Ducasi indicates, is to leave my brain on the kitchen table. I can pick it up when I come back in! (Ok or not :yum: ) I don't have a clue what steps we do in class unless I make a special point of remembering because, for example, I've promised to show a taxi dancer who missed it.

Often beginner leads ask me to back lead them. In class I refuse and make a big joke that I won't do it unless they lead me into it as it would be bad for me and bad for them!. In the freestyle I will loosen up to make sure that we have a fun and satisfying dance (I have a vested interest in beginner leads coming back!) and talk through any back leading until we can turn it around.


Top tips for following:

Leave brain somewhere safe :nice:
Don't even try to remember steps
Make the lead lead :innocent:
Smile
Experience that joy that only happens when you are not thinking about it! :clap:
Smile

At the end of the night remember the safe place where you left brain :flower:

Sometimes I feel I will never get the real hang of it but then I notice I can do moves comfortably or dance with leads that, a couple of months ago, I couldn't. :D :drool:

[bigdjiver]

I suspect that an occasional bit of back-leading helps the beginner leader to gain confidence and learn the moves. I think that that is one of the secrets of the success of Ceroc, why lead-follow is not usually stressed in class. Gradually the leader learns to lead and the follower learns to follow.

[David Bailey]

Hi purple :)

I have been doing Ceroc for the princely total of 3.5 months (give or take a week or so). The problem I have is that as Ceroc is soooo man-led, I can end up doing a class and coming out virtually unable to remember what the class covered.
Yes, Ceroc classes are highly targetted at teaching specific sets of moves to the men (leaders) - and so as a follower you learn less in terms of the moves than the men do.

However, it'd be wrong to extrapolate from this that Ceroc / Modern Jive dancing is primarily male-oriented; like all partner dances, it's a combination of lead-and-follow involving two separate but equal partnerships. There's certainly nothing inferior about being a follower.


But in my first ceroc class I was given to understand that ladies are encouraged to dance as ladies, and from the forum I gather that back-leading is one of the ultimate sins.
I think it's sensible to learn the follower role well before you learn to lead, if that's what you mean. As for the second, yes - back-leading is Eeeevil. :)


So what is the solution?
Depends on what you want really... If you're looking for lots of good-quality "dance training", Ceroc classes won't generally provide that - you'd be better off with other dance forms I think.

If you're looking for a good night of fun dancing, Ceroc / MJ is hard to beat, however.

[Lynn]

I have been doing Ceroc for the princely total of 3.5 months (give or take a week or so). The problem I have is that as Ceroc is soooo man-led, I can end up doing a class and coming out virtually unable to remember what the class covered. That's fine. Following isn't about remembering what the class covered as the class will mostly have covered moves.

Can I break the rules and start dancing as a man occasionally?Yes. You may prefer leading, but it would probably be a good idea to develop good following skills first. Then try learning to lead and see which you like best. There is no rule that says you must dance as a follow because you are a woman.

Or does anyone have any other helpful hints and tips which could help? The key point is - try not to follow the move, and focus on following the lead.

Its easy at first as a follower to focus on the moves. Doing lots of freestyle, especially being led in moves you've never done in class, usually helps in developing following skills.

Hope this helps.

[TheTramp]

Trampy may be right that, by spending time leading, you won't reach the peak of following excellence quite as quickly as you otherwise would. So it depends what you want. If you want to be an international dancing sensation, and you meet the other prerequisites for that (young, slim, attractive, natural balance, good kinaesthesia, dancing since age 5, etc), then do what he says.
If, on the other hand, you're dancing Ceroc for enjoyment, then I recommend ignoring him and doing what you want. If you're having fun then you'll learn faster, regardless of whether you're following a technically optimal route.

Or, if you just want to be a good follower that people want to dance with :shrug:

I'm not saying that anyone shouldn't do what they want in order to have fun. I'm saying that if you want to improve, it's best to concentrate on one thing rather than two, which can sometimes and in some cases even impinge on each other, and make learning both proportionally slower.

[Paulthetrainer]

Just to second what most people on here are already saying..

I don't know much about dancing as a follower but I would have thought that an environment where you do not actually know what the next move is likely to be (freestyle) is a better place to learn 'how not to lead' than an environment where you know exactly what the next move is going to be (the lesson). If you know whats about to happen I would imagine the temptation to try and lead the move could be too much to resist!

[MartinHarper]

Specialisation is for insects (http://www.elise.com/quotes/a/heinlein_specialization_is_for_insects.php)

Talking of efficient learning: this strikes me as a problem:


my brain doesn't always engage fully.

To me this signifies insufficient challenge, which may hinder learning. Is this right? I am extrapolating from six words, after all. :)
Obviously learning to lead will increase the challenge, but in deference to Tramp, I'll suggest an alternative. Get yourself to some lead/follow workshop, or read about lead/follow online, and pick a particular following concept that you want to practice. Options include:

* flashlighting
* continuous connection
* matching pressure
* posture
* balance
* frame
* slots
* turning on the spot
* spotting

Having picked that concept, focus heavilly on carrying out that concept within the class, to the best of your ability. A side-advantage is that by occupying your brain with an element of following, you prevent it getting in the way of the passive "muscle memory" learning that other folks have described on this thread.

[LMC]

Agree with what much of FH & MH have said. I came to the conclusion fairly early on in intermediate classes that there was absolutely no point whatsoever in trying to recall the moves - because as a follower, I wasn't in 'control' of them!

Like FH, this has had its moments, where I've had a partner in class who has asked for help and I have to tell them "Sorry, I don't have a clue - I ain't leading"

And as others have suggested, I keep myself occupied by trying to focus on connection/style - most importantly: am I really following? Others: I think about posture, where your weight is, balance, spinning technique (if a spin is led, am I spinning a) on the spot b) on time with either the count, or the music - and if not, was it a poor lead or 'my fault'?)

I think of the lessons as a "warm up" for freestyle - again, as others have said, that is where you will *really* learn to follow.


back-leading is Eeeevil.
:yeah:

[purplehyacinth]

Dear all,

First, thank you all for being so lovely as to chip in your individual tuppence-worths.

Dorothy, Dai, Freudian Hips, LMC – thank you for letting me know that I’m not alone. It’s good to know that what I’m experience (a) isn’t just me, and (b) may actually be what’s supposed to happen! (in this connection, thanks for your comments Ducasi about muscle memory, as that is more what has been happening for me: the meaning of various lead signals has been meandering into my subconscious, but I could not consciously replicate them, or necessarily be able to narrate them, if that makes sense).

MartinHarper – in answer to your first question, I am not going to bore everyone with recounting my various flirtations with assorted dance forms here. I have, however, posted a summary on my blog HERE (http://erica-cinerea.livejournal.com/807.html) if you really want to see it.

In regard to your second post – you have interpreted pretty well one of the things I was trying to “get at” but utterly failed to communicate clearly (note to self – compiling posts at 2345h after a tiring day is not necessarily a good thing if I want to be coherent). What has been bothering me is the way that I have found myself going into a Ceroc class of an evening, going through the whole class, and then coming out at the end completely unable to remember what I have done in the class. Now I don’t expect to remember what I do in freestyle, because that’s the whole point of a led-dance (one of my past dance teachers once said in connection with ballroom that a good dance (subtext “with a good leader”) was one where you came off the floor unable to remember or tell what you’d done, but having really enjoyed it – or words to like effect). However, when I’m in a class, and supposed to be “learning” I’ve always felt that I ought to be able to retain – in some sort of a conscious way – what I’ve learnt, and my inability to do so with ceroc has worried me because (a) it has made me feel that I can’t be “learning” properly, and (b) because when something goes wrong – as it did with one of my partners in the intermediate class on Tuesday, the lack of conscious retention of what moves I’ve just done means that I am hampered in assisting my partner in identifying what has gone wrong, so that he or I can fix it. And when I can’t do that, it bothers me.:(

Finally, there is the general concern that if I don’t know what I’m doing (or meant to be doing) I don’t know whether or not I’m doing it correctly, wrongly, well or poorly! (although a wrenched arm, near decapitation, being thrown off balance or ending 3 feet away from my partner generally = “wrong”).

Now - and thank you all for your comments which have forced me to think this through a bit more (I’m not going to quote them all) – having thought about this a bit more, I am beginning to appreciate that my frustration may well be due (in fact probably is due) to the mindset I have been dancing within for the last 5 years.

This has been Scottish Country dancing, incidentally – please (a) feel free to look away and yawn (as most people do), but more important, (b) do NOT confuse with ceilidh dancing. While SCD-ers generally do ceildh dancing too, the terms are not synonymous, and what I am talking about is primarily the set dance form.

The fact is that the SCD group with which I’ve done most dancing takes a slightly unsual approach to getting beginners hooked. Essentially, at the start of the dancing year, it is expected that the experienced dancers fulfil a role functionally equivalent to that of a taxi dancer in Ceroc. This is carried through to such a degree that for the first 4-5 weeks of the dancing year, there is in fact NO intermediate class: the intermediates can only come along to the beginners class (and are encouraged and to a substantial degree expected to do so), so that they can help with the new beginners (and then, of course stay for social, and encourage the beginners to do so to J). This does work, as it means that the beginners have experienced people to dance with, and to ask questions of, and it also makes it easier for them to learn the geography of dances, as there are always some experienced people in a set who can point them. (I may say that this method really does work: our beginners learn fast (faster than in some other groups I won’t mention), they gain confidence, and we are able to have them at a “beginners” dance within about 2 months, and many of them do their first ball within about 3 months. Also we have a reasonable retention rate!). Dancing within this philosophy has meant that I think that I have become conditioned to the idea that I have to learn everything to the point that if required, I can demonstrate and explain it to someone else.

I am also used to dancing as a man because (a) every couple dance class I’ve ever been in before has been short of men and I’ve had to (ditto in SCD sets – I doubt if you will ever find a lady who does SCD who can only dance from the ladies’ side: we all dance as men to make up the numbers on occasion), (b) in SCD ladies’ technique, it’s an all-female team, so one has to, and (c) if I’m teaching ceilidh and need to show a move to a man, or give a lady a “feel” for where she should be being taken, then I have to.

As for back leading, when I’m doing dem ’n’ drag, generally the only way to get a hapless male through a couple dance is to back-lead.

It’s not the case that I particularly want to dance as a man: rather I was wondering whether it would be an appropriate solution to my concerns about lack of memory of what I’ve done, and allow me to “learn” in the way I have felt I “ought to” be learning. Sorry that was not adequately clear (further note to self - do not compose posts at 2345h)

However, from what has been said in the preceding posts, I am moving towards the conclusions that in Ceroc:

Ceroc is not a team matter – or at least not in the way I am used to. If my partner messes it up, it’s not my job to try to get him back where he’s meant to be.
Equally, it’s not my job to try and get him there in the first place (and I really have been doing my utmost not to back lead in Ceroc, and to make the bloke lead…. honest!)
Helping to show beginners what they are meant to be doing so that they keep coming back is no longer either my problem or my responsibility
So – I don’t need to learn how to generate the structure of the dance, as opposed to being led within the structure (that’s the bloke’s problem)!
Result – should be liberation……. and ability to follow Freudian Hips’ tips and allow my brain to switch off without guilt... :nice:Now you can all jump in and tell me that I’ve got it wholly wrong, have expressed the above in too-absolute terms, and that they should be subject to 1001 caveats!

OK, now for the shameful confessions:blush: …. Tramp – while I’ve only been doing Ceroc since the start of September (Sept 6 if you want to be picky), I’ve actually been going along to the intermediate class since mid October (can’t remember now whether it was the 2nd or 3rd week in Oct but it was definitely after I got back from Aberdeen, because it was the nagging I got in Aberdeen on the that ultimately prompted me to break the determination I’d previously formed not to leave beginners for 3 months and to give intermediates a try – and I was in Abdn the first week in Oct).

Shameful confession no 2 – and I do really blush to say this one ……. I’ve always had a natural following ability:blush: . Even before I ever did any formal dance classes, people who danced e.g. social ballroom with me at weddings (which I had NEVER learnt up to that point) were always able to pilot me through, and generally commented that “I could follow a lead”. PLEASE NOTE, however I do NOT in any way pretend to be anywhere near a perfect follower. As Ducasi knows, I am well capable of doing a good impersonation of the proverbial “sack of tatties” when given a lead which is so beyond my ken that I cannot interpret it intuitively, or make the right guess as to where it’s meant to take me (or simply confuse it with a lead I’ve encountered elsewhere which would mean something different in another dance form (IVFDF workshops have a lot to answer for)…). But I can follow (to an extent – maybe even a reasonable extent?), and am generally conscious of trying to practise the majority of the concepts MartinHarper highlights (with the exception of flashlighting. slots and spotting, as I don’t have a clue what these terms mean – could someone please point me in the direction of the relevant thread so I can learn? :nice: ). The first few seconds of any dance, I generally spend trying to “read” my partner; get a feel for how much tension and resistance I need to give him; get a feel for the way he carries and structures himself (I take it this is what you mean by frame); work out what I need to do to match his style (is he grounded or bouncy, spiky, smooth etc, how much does he move his feet, and in what manner?) and generally try to match myself to him as best I can. Also, given my dance background, being aware of where my weight is, is again something which is more or less habitual. And as far as spinning is concerned … now that I can generally do :nice: … and double, triple, …… etc spins. :wink:

Getting off my own self-absorbed ramblings, I do agree with LMC, Paulthetrainer, and TheTramp – I have definitely learnt more from dancing with good dancers in freestyle than I have in class. That’s not to say that class has been useless. It has left me more able to interpret various leads, and I do think that I am botching things up a bit less than I used to in freestyle.

I think the way forward may well be for me to wait until I can get along to some of the workshops Ducasi mentioned, which may give me some nice challenges to focus on…. J

BTW, what is hijacking, and what is the difference between that and back-leading?

Finally. TheTramp

yes, I do want to improve and be not just a dancer, but a good dancer!
if you want to dance, I’ll be happy to dance with you any time we meet!Sorry this has been such a mammoth post, but you were all so helpful and thought provoking that I wanted to make some sort of an adequate response.

[purplehyacinth]

Sorry, off topic - the formatting of my link in the last post hasn't worked properly. Could some kindly moderator please fix and also tell me what I did wrong.

[ducasi]

Sorry, off topic - the formatting of my link in the last post hasn't worked properly. Could some kindly moderator please fix and also tell me what I did wrong.
I've fixed your link – easiest thing to do is type the text, select the bit you want to make a link, and hit the wee world/link icon. It should be obvious from then.

I'll reply to the rest of your message in the morning. :)

BTW, for my recollections on the first time I danced with you (on the 6th of September ;)), see my blog posting here (http://ducasi.org/blog/2006/09/10/guu-freestyle-3/).

[MartinHarper]

One other thing to think about during lessons, to keep your brain engaged. Translate the teacher's directions to the men into directions for the women. For example, the teacher might say "push the girl's hand to get her to step back". Translated into an instruction for the follower, that becomes "Don't step back until you feel your hand being pushed. The manner in which you step back should be dictated by the way that your hand was pushed". Alternatively, if the teacher says "men, you should get out of the lady's way as she steps forward", that translates into "women, if the man gets in your way, kick him in the shins (gently)".

I do this at one of my Lindy lessons - the female teacher often spends time talking to the women about what they should be feeling and how they should be reacting to what they feel. I try to translate those comments into instructions for me to help me lead the move correctly.


Ceroc is not a team matter – or at least not in the way I am used to. If my partner messes it up, it’s not my job to try to get him back where he’s meant to be. ... Equally, it’s not my job to try and get him there in the first place.

Yes, pretty much. Suppose something goes wrong, and a couple end up a few beats out of sync with the rest of the class. Unlike in SCD, that's no big deal: they can simply finish the routine a few beats behind everyone else, with no harm done. It's possible for the leader to get the partnership back in sync, for example by missing out a return, or speeding up part of a move, but he can only do so if his partner is following him. In most cases, it's not possible for a follower to get the partnership back in sync, and attempting to do so can cause confusion.


Helping to show beginners what they are meant to be doing so that they keep coming back is no longer either my problem or my responsibility.

Ideally you should eventually learn to explain to beginners what they are meant to be doing. Examples:
* A beginner says in a class "I've forgotten what the next move is". You answer "it's an arm jive next", and wait for him to lead it.
* A beginner in freestyle stops dancing and says "I can't think of any more moves". You prompt with names of moves they might have been taught.
* A beginner pauses halfway through a move, looking confused. You say "now push on my hand to get me to spin round". When he does so say "that's it!" and give him a smile. Possibly kiss him, if he's cute.

Some women will also tell the guy when he's lead something different to what the teacher has demonstrated. So, they might say "you're meant to finish holding my other hand" or "it's meant to be a free spin" or "there's meant to be a return". There's always a danger with such a comment that the guy did whatever it was "wrong" deliberately.

Responsibility? Nah. But the same logic applies as in your SCD classes. If you are kind to the newbies, then they'll come back. There's the additional benefit that you can mould them to your personal tastes. For example, if you make cooing noises whenever your newbie leads a move you like, then they'll add that move to their repertoire. Eventually you'll end up with a collection of lovely dancers tuned to your personal tastes, all of whom love you because you were friendly back when they were starting.


get a feel for the way he carries and structures himself (I take it this is what you mean by frame)

Men get to have frame too, but in this case I was talking about girly frame. For example, one of my local teachers refers to women's arms as "handles". He stresses that women should always keep their handles available, and always be ready to react to their handles being moved. Maintaining these handles is part of what I call frame.
Obviously you'll have an idea of frame from your other dancing, but different dances are different. If you dance with a ballroom-style frame you'll probably feel a little odd.

[bigdjiver]

... I am beginning to appreciate that my frustration may well be due (in fact probably is due) to the mindset I have been dancing within for the last 5 years... it is always difficult to enrich an existingl mindset. It is only when it is a "mind set" that it becomes a real problem.


... the SCD group with which I’ve done most dancing takes a slightly unsual approach to getting beginners hooked. Essentially, at the start of the dancing year, it is expected that the experienced dancers fulfil a role functionally equivalent to that of a taxi dancer in Ceroc...... this method really does work: our beginners learn fast ... they gain confidence ... The Taxi Dancer is one of the big ideas in Ceroc.


...Dancing within this philosophy has meant that I think that I have become conditioned to the idea that I have to learn everything to the point that if required, I can demonstrate and explain it to someone else... It sounds to me that you are training yourself to be a MJ Taxi-dancer. Be happy with who you are. My guess is from the volume of thought you have put into this that this is only the first step.


As for back leading, when I’m doing dem ’n’ drag, generally the only way to get a hapless male through a couple dance is to back-lead.This is another big Ceroc "secret". It is a lead follow dance, but they do not stress that in beginners class. I find it hard to recall it being mentioned. I find most beginners leave their first lessons in a state of mental overload, trying desperately to remember something of what they have been taught. Many ladies accept their first invitaion to dance with trepidation. It is only when they find themselves on the dancefloor doing moves that they have never been taught that the reality of their role as a follower sinks home. Meanwhile many of the men are finding that a little bit of back-leading is more essential than evil.



However, from what has been said in the preceding posts, I am moving towards the conclusions that in Ceroc:

Ceroc is not a team matter – or at least not in the way I am used to. If my partner messes it up, it’s not my job to try to get him back where he’s meant to be.Be yourself. Some guys will hate it, and not ask you again, others will regard you as a Sister of Mercy and seek you out.


Helping to show beginners what they are meant to be doing so that they keep coming back is no longer either my problem or my responsibilityIt can be a self-appointed task. Taxi-dancers come from somewhere.


So – I don’t need to learn how to generate the structure of the dance, as opposed to being led within the structure (that’s the bloke’s problem)! Choreographers come from somewhere too.


Result – should be liberation……. and ability to follow Freudian Hips’ tips and allow my brain to switch off without guilt... :nice::yeah: You get to be one thing one dance, and something completely different the next, go where music, mood and partner take you.

Actually, "Liberation Jive" might be a good name for what we do.



Shameful confession no 2 – and I do really blush to say this one ……. I’ve always had a natural following ability:blush: .I suspect that you have natural leading ability too. I would encourage you to Dance your own dance

[Freudian Hips]

I am moving towards the conclusions that in Ceroc:

Ceroc is not a team matter – or at least not in the way I am used to. If my partner messes it up, it’s not my job to try to get him back where he’s meant to be.Well, yes and no. It is a joint responsibility IMHO. You don't know where he is meant to be but if he fluffs a lead, make the most of it and turn it into something fun and probably unique!!

Equally, it’s not my job to try and get him there in the first place (and I really have been doing my utmost not to back lead in Ceroc, and to make the bloke lead…. honest!)Make and let the bloke lead definitely :respect:

Helping to show beginners what they are meant to be doing so that they keep coming back is no longer either my problem or my responsibility Yes and no. If we want to encourage good lead dancers, we followers need to give "good dance"!

So – I don’t need to learn how to generate the structure of the dance, as opposed to being led within the structure (that’s the bloke’s problem)!Yes but you can style it in so many different ways.

Result – should be liberation……. and ability to follow Freudian Hips’ tips and allow my brain to switch off without guilt... :nice:One of my great life lessons this year is to think less and feel more. Ceroc is a perfect physical expression of that way of being. :D

Now you can all jump in and tell me that I’ve got it wholly wrong, have expressed the above in too-absolute terms, and that they should be subject to 1001 caveats! only a couple!!:hug:

OK, now for the shameful confessions:blush: …. Tramp – while I’ve only been doing Ceroc since the start of September (Sept 6 if you want to be picky), I’ve actually been going along to the intermediate class since mid October. Great! I did the same on the grounds that after 20 odd years of dance, an intermediate class wasn't going to hurt - and it hasn't! Maybe Trampy will disagree :yum:

Shameful confession no 2 – and I do really blush to say this one ……. I’ve always had a natural following ability You are lucky! :worthy: Keep a hold of that. Some of us have to work like crazy at letting go!


Keep dancing and smiling! Hope to meet you soon :flower:

[ducasi]

Dear all, ~~ big snip! ~~ Thanks Heather for the interesting and insightful followup post. I think you're on the right road. :)

There's only a few points I want to make...

However, from what has been said in the preceding posts, I am moving towards the conclusions that in Ceroc:

Ceroc is not a team matter – or at least not in the way I am used to. If my partner messes it up, it’s not my job to try to get him back where he’s meant to be.
Equally, it’s not my job to try and get him there in the first place (and I really have been doing my utmost not to back lead in Ceroc, and to make the bloke lead…. honest!)
Helping to show beginners what they are meant to be doing so that they keep coming back is no longer either my problem or my responsibility
It's not your job really, especially if it detracts from his learning, but any assistance you can give, short of doing the move for him, is good. However, it's in your interest to get the guys with potential coming back, so at least some encouragement is a good thing. (And it's sometimes hard to tell who are the guys with potential, so you might just have to be encouraging to everyone.)


So – I don’t need to learn how to generate the structure of the dance, as opposed to being led within the structure (that’s the bloke’s problem)!
Absolutely. Well, you want to the learn the vocabulary and structure of the dance, just not how to put it together yet.


Result – should be liberation……. and ability to follow Freudian Hips’ tips and allow my brain to switch off without guilt... :nice:
:yeah:



I’ve always had a natural following ability:blush: This much was apparent to me on your first night at Ceroc – no need to blush. :)



(with the exception of flashlighting. slots and spotting, as I don’t have a clue what these terms mean – could someone please point me in the direction of the relevant thread so I can learn? Flashlighting is when you focus yourself on your partner, so you are facing them, and giving them attention. The term has been borrowed from Swing dances, I think (thus the Americanism), but applies just as much in Modern Jive. Imagine you have a torch embedded in your body – where it is pointing? This is much more important to the leader than the follower in my opinion, though when you are supposed to be facing your partner, you should be facing your partner. :)

Slotted dancing – again, mostly borrowed from West Coast Swing. Imagine a set of tram lines on the floor, the girl dances back and forward mostly within this "slot", with the guy at the centre, getting out of the girl's way as he leads her. WCS has quite a rigid slot. MJ is almost always taught in a slot, but is not always danced in one. I try to dance in a slotted style.

Spotting is the spinning technique you have doubtless come across where you keep your eye on your partner (or traditionally, a far point), while you spin and only turn your head at the last moment to restore your gaze back onto the spot you were looking at an instant before. This technique has been the subject of much controversy here of late. I shall say no more, in case I stir it up again! :really:



BTW, what is hijacking, and what is the difference between that and back-leading? Hijacking is basically when you stop being lead by your partner and start leading yourself – and sometimes also your partner.

Some hijacks are done for fun to catch out your partner, or because you want to bring some of your own musical interpretation to the dance.

The simplest hijack you already know – do a double spin instead of a single. Good for filling to the end of a bar before a break.

One that Sheena likes to do a fair bit is to slow down a turn to last two or even three beats.

The best hijacks will fit in with the flow of the dance, and not upset the leader's lead, though it is important that it you do steal the lead from your partner that you return it in a way that he will understand. See Frank's workshops for more detail.

Oh, and hijacking inexperienced dancers is a bit mean, especially if they don't know you. That said, often it is with those dancers that you'll find yourself wanting to do more things for yourself.

Almost all my favourite dancers like to hijack to some extent. And I like it when my partner can bring her own ideas to a dance. Just because it's a male-lead dance, doesn't mean the girl has to be completely passive.

(That said, apparently there are some folks who really hate women who hijack. :what:)



Sorry this has been such a mammoth post, but you were all so helpful and thought provoking that I wanted to make some sort of an adequate response. Thank you again, much appreciated. :)

[bigdjiver]

If you are dancing with a partner that likes to take a turn as a follower a simple hijack is to stop a spin facing away from them with arms extended behind you as in a "Catapult".

[David Bailey]

As for back leading, when I’m doing dem ’n’ drag, generally the only way to get a hapless male through a couple dance is to back-lead.
But then, how will us poor men ever learn how to lead properly? A short sharp shock in leading early on is much better for us than after a year or so of doing it badly but being "helped" along.



[LIST]
Helping to show beginners what they are meant to be doing so that they keep coming back is no longer either my problem or my responsibility
Officially, no. Unofficially, in MJ classes we mainly pull each other up by our bootstraps, so it's both ethical and good practice to dance with beginners.


BTW, what is hijacking, and what is the difference between that and back-leading?
Hijacking is also Evil.

Good followers don't do it. :whistle:

Don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you otherwise :devil:

[Trouble]

Hijacking is also Evil.

Good followers don't do it. :whistle:

Don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you otherwise :devil:

Hijacking is a must now and then especially if you want to be a little bit cheeky or are having a boring dance.

So general rule of thumb for all leaders, dont let the follower get bored or she/he will take over. :D :whistle:

DJ - you must suffer a lot of hijacking :love: :love: :love: JUST KIDDING.XX

[Lynn]

DJ - you must suffer a lot of hijacking Why do you think he dislikes it so much? :devil:

OK - I know we've had this conversation before. Backleading is evil. Hijacking is evil if the lead doesn't like it. Hijacking to me is taking over the lead. What's 'decorating'? And is it evil if not invited? Or is it evil for the lead to not allow the woman to 'do something interesting'? (We can't have it just the woman being evil, can we?)

[David Bailey]

Hijacking is a must now and then especially if you want to be a little bit cheeky or are having a boring dance.
Yes, that's what a lot of Bad Dancers say... :na:

[JiveLad]

Personally, I enjoy being hijacked now and again.

Coincidentally, I made reference to hijacking on a post in 'Adult' forum about 30 minutes ago - and what it connotes according to the Institute.

See http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10898&page=2

[jockey]

I have read pretty much all of this thread and suggest the following:

1. Learn the names of the moves in the class and write them down. Advantage: you can go back to the teacher and the taxis at any time and they will refresh your memory.
2. Dance with intermediates and find 6 men who are keen enough to go over the class in freestyle (mixing the moves in to moves you know) - men who know the names of the moves themselves.
3. Dance loads and avoid bad dancers.
4. Find "strong leads" .
5. "Backleading is caused partly by followers stepping into the next move ahead of the beat; try to sustain the current move and "finish" it properly by extending your arm to its full extent.
6. Learn to spin and turn adroitly. You can learn to spin on the lino at home.
This is essential - you must get round in one beat to allow the routine to flow.

[Trousers]

Damn

'Lady needing guidance!' it said


I thought wheyhey! a little bit of bondage for newyears eve.


Boy was I disappointed!

:sad:

[Miguel]

I have, however, posted a summary on my blog HERE (http://erica-cinerea.livejournal.com/807.html) if you really want to see it.

So you've tried Petronella, Duke of Perth, Strathspey, Tap, Ballroom, Cuban Salsa, Flamenco, Tango, Scottish Country Dancing (again) and now Ceroc.

Read and imbibe this paper - it will solve your "problems".:hug:
http://www.stanford.edu/group/dance/vintage/resources/essays/teach_learn.html

[purplehyacinth]

Just to clarify. Petronella and Duke of Perth are both (relatively easy) SCDs. Strathspey is a form of SCD, with a unique "dotted" rhythm.

*goes into SCD-geek mode*

Just to confuse you, Petronella is also a (16-bar) figure besides being a dance (the dance includes the figure). And there is also the "Petronella Turn" (2-bar figure)

*evil grin* (why isn't there a smilie for "evil grin").

Duke of Perth also goes by the names "Broun's Reel" and "Clean Pease Strae".

If I listed every SCD I've done, you would be all day reading it.

*reverts to SCD-geek mode*

Apparently, there are (allegedly), over 9,000 dances which have been compiled as "Scottish Country Dances". (Scottish Country Dance being the form, rather than indicative of the country of origin:wink: ). Originally, there were rather fewer. The RSCDS (http://www.rscds.org/) was originally set up with the aim of, inter alia, recording and preserving SCDs. However since after Book 24 (ie book 25 onwards), the contents of the books have been "compiled" dances rather than "collected" dances. (The number of non-RSCDS-published dances has far outstripped the RSCDS-published dances. However, for RSCDS competitions, the dances used must come from the official RSCDS books.)

Also, people keep devising new ones all the time, including the wonderful John Drewry (who is, so they say, the most prolific SCD deviser living) who devises dances with the loveliest "flow".

I may say I have NOT done all 9,000-plus dances

All things which I bet you never wanted to know.

Anyway, I'll respect the fact that this is a ceroc forum and stop wittering on about SCD.

And it wasn't Tango. It was billed as "Flamenco Tango" (though I never actually worked out why Tango was part of the name - it just seemed like flamenco to me, as it was a solo dance. Maybe Tango was something to do with the tempo. Who knows?)

[Msfab]

Hijacking is also Evil.

Good followers don't do it. :whistle:

This attitude belongs mainly to leaders who are too wrapped up in their power to determine every step of a dance between a "partnership"!

:clap: Hijacking/stealing is not evil if done correctly, in time with music, in time with movement and space. This topic has been covered on another thread not sure where, though im sure someone will point us in the write direction:na:

[Miguel]

Dear Heather,
Why not spend some time at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pagrosse/hamstercam.htm
It works for me.
:hug: Mike.

[MartinHarper]

This topic has been covered on another thread not sure where, though im sure someone will point us in the write direction

I think for a beginner Cerocer, "hijacking is evil too" is a reasonable simplication. However, check these threads when you want some deeper answers:

Sabotage (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9461)
Ladies taking the initiative (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393)
It's official - ladies can lead a break (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1113)
Backleading?? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4871)

[Msfab]

I think for a beginner Cerocer, "hijacking is evil too" is a reasonable simplication.

:yeah: I totally agree with you! (I hadnt read the first post!:blush: )


Thanks for posting the links!:D

[purplehyacinth]

Thanks for posting the links!:D

:yeah:
MartinHarper - I'll add my thanks for the links too.

[David Bailey]

This attitude belongs mainly to leaders who are too wrapped up in their power to determine every step of a dance between a "partnership"!
Yep, that's me, power-crazy fool that I am - I believe the phrase is "Mwa-ha-ha"?


:clap: Hijacking/stealing is not evil if done correctly, in time with music, in time with movement and space.
Transfer of lead is not evil, as long as it's done correctly - that is, with a proper handover at the start and the end.

Non-consenting transfer of lead is, IMO, just wrong. It's an interruption of the conversation, and ruins the flow. It doesn't matter if it's done "stylishly" or not - the non-consenting aspect is the problem.

[Beowulf]

This is a very interesting thread. Well done PurpleHeather for starting it. :worthy:

As a male lead I'm "supposed" to know what I'm doing. After many months of dancing (and many more months of NOT dancing in between.. therein lies my problem) I still have difficulty in knowing the moves, but as many people have said before it's not about moves it's about (As Ducasi so eloquently put it) learning the vocabulary.

I know some very excellent female dancers who dance as leafs as well as followers, There's a couple who go regularly to my Aberdeen venue (and who are also well known forumites) who dance the lead role much better than I do :respect: if that's what you want to do then do it. You're here to have fun and enjoy yourself.

You sound like you're already a great dancer and the fact that your thinking about this in depth shows you're also a conscientious dancer too. I think you'll be a great addition to the MJ family and look forward to having a dance with you next time you're around this area.




A beginner says in a class "I've forgotten what the next move is". You answer "it's an arm jive next", and wait for him to lead it.
A beginner in freestyle stops dancing and says "I can't think of any more moves". You prompt with names of moves they might have been taught.
A beginner pauses halfway through a move, looking confused. You say "now push on my hand to get me to spin round". When he does so say "that's it!" and give him a smile.


You've just described me there Martin. After all these months / years I still forget what I'm doing :blush: Must be my Muscle memory has amnesia


Possibly kiss him, if he's cute.

except that never happens... well not to me at least :tears: :wink:

[whitetiger1518]

Welcome to you PurpleHeather,

I have in my past some experience of SCD and Ceilidh, and I understand about the wish to show the leads (mainly beginners) how to lead as a result...

I totally agree with Freudian Hips on her first post, and here are 2 things that occurred to me that people haven't mentioned before:

The CEROC DVDs - brilliant help on all the moves for whatever level you are at :grin:

Connection - I have found that in order to find this elusive quality and to have no chance of trying to lead is helped by:

Holding your lead's gaze, or alternatively (particularly in a Blues setting) close your eyes - then your lead can lead you exactly as they please and the resulting dance is a mind exploding experience (best if you leave your brain on the kitchen table - as FH suggests ;) )

A CEROC Addicted Whitetiger