Faster Than Light travel

[Shodan]

Ok fellow Sci-Fi geeks.... on another forum I'm a member off, a debate about the main two faster than light travelling devices has started up.

Which is fastest: Warp travel or Hyperspace ?

Those that don't understand what these are need not apply.

So far, the arguement has edged towards the use of Hyperspace could theoretically be the faster means as Warp travel has a limit of Warp 10.

BUT if you do exceed Warp 10 then you are instantly everywhere in the universe all at once (according to some Warp 10 theories and also an epsiode of Voyager).

Obviously feel free to talk about other FTL systems as well and argue your case. Obviously again the New Galactica FTL system is obviously the fastest as its instantaneous using a form of Event Horizon space folding travel.

[Lou]

Which is fastest: Warp travel or Hyperspace ?In my experience, nothing travels faster than bad news...

[philsmove]

According to Jeremy Clarkson's "I know U got soul"

Hyperspace

But the dormouse might have other ideas

[stewart38]

Ok fellow Sci-Fi geeks.... on another forum I'm a member off, a debate about the main two faster than light travelling devices has started up.

Which is fastest: Warp travel or Hyperspace ?

Those that don't understand what these are need not apply.

So far, the arguement has edged towards the use of Hyperspace could theoretically be the faster means as Warp travel has a limit of Warp 10.

BUT if you do exceed Warp 10 then you are instantly everywhere in the universe all at once (according to some Warp 10 theories and also an epsiode of Voyager).

Obviously feel free to talk about other FTL systems as well and argue your case. Obviously again the New Galactica FTL system is obviously the fastest as its instantaneous using a form of Event Horizon space folding travel.

Wasnt warp 11 or 12 used in if not Voyger some other sci fi maybe Star Treck

I think Wogan achieved Warp 10 in mid late 90s , he seem to be every where all the time ?? :sick:

[Trousers]

I've ben told I'm warped :eek:

[andystyle]

Can of worms opened here!

I don't know enough about Star Wars hyperspace to talk about time, but are we talking about evidence from the films only or books as well? And as Star Wars book are accepted as official canon but Star Trek books aren't, does this skew things?

Anyway, Warp 10 is the theoetical fastest speed, but if anyone has read the book 'Federation' (bit of an old one), then it mentions something called sidewarp. No idea what this is, but it's a lot faster than warp drive. Not to mention the type of engine that Excelsior prototyped. Or was this just a futuristic (for the time) version of TNG warp drive?

Anyone read 'The Mote in God's Eye'? The FTL in that uses jump points (Langston Points from memory?) where the ship travels instantaneously between points. Pretty fast.

What about Babylon 5 hyperspace as well? That looks similar to Star Wars, but I've always had the impression that you could change direction at will in there, but not so much in Star Wars.

I could go on, but I really really won't. Just my £0.02 worth.

[MartinHarper]

So far, the arguement has edged towards the use of Hyperspace could theoretically be the faster means as Warp travel has a limit of Warp 10.

Warp speeds are based off (at least) two different scales, before and after "Gene's Recalibration". In the new system, Warp 10 is infinite speed. In the old system, Warp 10 is not a limit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_(Star_Trek)#Warp_velocities

[David Franklin]

Anyone read 'The Mote in God's Eye'? The FTL in that uses jump points (Langston Points from memory?) where the ship travels instantaneously between points. Pretty fast.Yeah, but you can only go between Crazy Eddie Points, so it's a bit limited.

Hard to top the 'Burroughs' space drive in "The Number of the Beast" - instantaneous transport to any place, any when, any universe. Pity it marked the "end-slide" in RAH's writing decline...

[andystyle]

Yeah, but you can only go between Crazy Eddie Points

Still fast, though. :wink:

[Shodan]

Not to mention the type of engine that Excelsior prototyped. Or was this just a futuristic (for the time) version of TNG warp drive?
Thats a "transwarp" drive. Its an experimental version of what the Borg use in later Star Trek series. It flopped as a drive system and the Excelsior was refitted with a standard Warp Drive.



What about Babylon 5 hyperspace as well?
Sorry, in my first post I was talking about Babylon5's Hyperspace system. I forgot that Star Wars also uses the same name for it. Apologees. :blush:

[Shodan]

Warp speeds are based off (at least) two different scales, before and after "Gene's Recalibration". In the new system, Warp 10 is infinite speed. In the old system, Warp 10 is not a limit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_(Star_Trek)#Warp_velocities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_%28Star_Trek%29#Warp_velocities)
Correct, the Warp scale use in the original series is slow than that of TNG onwards.

In my first post I was referring to newer Warp systems, as used from TNG onwards where Warp 10 is the limit, as its infinite speed and as such theoretically impossible to achieve. (except that episode of Voyager where Tom Paris makes a shuttle achieve Warp 10).

[killingtime]

Which is fastest: Warp travel or Hyperspace ?

BUT if you do exceed Warp 10 then you are instantly everywhere in the universe all at once (according to some Warp 10 theories and also an epsiode of Voyager).

That's if you hit warp 10 I believe (on the recalibrated scale). It's an exponential scale though so Voyager took it to silly "we can do speeds of Warp 9.975 or something which is much faster than warp 9.5. The Borg used something called Transwarp which got around the problem as far as I could see and allowed faster than Warp travel but getting around the co-terminus problem (if that is a problem).

Hyperspace was never really explained. It got around star systems but, like all good things in Star Wars, it worked better if it wasn't explained:

"How does your lightsaber work?"
"Just fine, thank you."

I believe from some of the literature (which might not be cannon) it's an traceable route since they could stick large gravitational objects in the path of a hyperspaced ship and it would be dropped out of hyperspace (or destroyed). Also the Empire made some sort of gravitational ship that could stop hyperspace jumps.

I expect Wikipedia has lots of information on both, it's the sort of things Wikipedia users post about.

[Gav]

Not that I know anything about these things, but wouldn't the "Event Horizon" have been impressively fast if only they could have got it to go somewhere other than Hell?

[straycat]

This sounds suspiciously like the: 'My imaginary big stick is bigger than your imaginary big stick' debate.

So I'm going to say 'Hyperspace' (without bothering to justify it in any way), and if anyone dares disagree, I'm going to hit them repeatedly over the head with my bigger-than-anyone-else's imaginary big stick until they back down ;)

[Beowulf]

(as I seem to be stuck on a Dune mode at the moment)
Which is faster Hyperspace, Warp travel or Using the orange spice gas which gives you the ability to fold space ;)

[Gav]

(as I seem to be stuck on a Dune mode at the moment)
Which is faster Hyperspace, Warp travel or Using the orange spice gas which gives you the ability to fold space ;)

but surely you can only see through time and space with the melange? not travel.

[CJ]

Has there been a ship using Warp Drive that's done the Kessler run in less than 12 parsecs?!?:confused:

[andystyle]

Thats a "transwarp" drive. Its an experimental version of what the Borg use in later Star Trek series. It flopped as a drive system and the Excelsior was refitted with a standard Warp Drive.

That's how Voyager got home though, wasn't it? So although Starfleet abandoned it, it clearly still works - and is faster than warp drive too.


I'm going to hit them repeatedly over the head with my bigger-than-anyone-else's imaginary big stick until they back down

My lightsabre will make short work of that stick.


Also the Empire made some sort of gravitational ship that could stop hyperspace jumps.

Interdictor-class vessel. Basically park it on any hyperspace route and drag a ship out of it.

[killingtime]

Interdictor-class vessel. Basically park it on any hyperspace route and drag a ship out of it.

The geek is strong in this one.

[CJ]

Interdictor-class vessel. Basically park it on any hyperspace route and drag a ship out of it.


The geek is strong in this one.

Obi Wan has taught him well...

[Shodan]

That's how Voyager got home though, wasn't it? So although Starfleet abandoned it, it clearly still works - and is faster than warp drive too.
Voyager "borrowed" a Borg transwarp conduit to get home. i.e. a big gate thing allowing access to the Borg transwarp system.

Yes, the experimental transwarp drive flopped in the testing of the Excelsior, and the Federation did continue to research it but couldn't get it to work properly. Thus the continued use of Warp Drive.

The Borg on the other hand got Transwarp working as they assimilated it from a different species that had indeed managed to get it to work. In Voyager they "play" with their standard Warp Drive by enhancing it with Borg technology.

[Beowulf]

Voyager "borrowed" a Borg transwarp conduit to get home. i.e. a big gate thing allowing access to the Borg transwarp system.

Yes, the experimental transwarp drive flopped in the testing of the Excelsior, and the Federation did continue to research it but couldn't get it to work properly. Thus the continued use of Warp Drive.

The Borg on the other hand got Transwarp working as they assimilated it from a different species that had indeed managed to get it to work. In Voyager they "play" with their standard Warp Drive by enhancing it with Borg technology.

I didn't like Voyager.. but IIRC didn't Paris and Janeway turn into mutant gecko's at some point after messing with a new propulsion system? I think I stopped watching it around that point Liked ST :TOS, ST:TNG and really enjoyed ST:DS9 the rest? I could live without)

[LMC]

I've just upgraded from an Infinite Improbability to a Bistromathics drive.

[andystyle]

Originally Posted by andystyle
Interdictor-class vessel. Basically park it on any hyperspace route and drag a ship out of it.



Originally Posted by killingtime
The geek is strong in this one.


Obi Wan has taught him well...

Almost a hijacked thread. Almost...


I didn't like Voyager.. but IIRC didn't Paris and Janeway turn into mutant gecko's at some point after messing with a new propulsion system? I think I stopped watching it around that point Liked ST :TOS, ST:TNG and really enjoyed ST:DS9 the rest? I could live without)

I remember that episode. Reminds me of a scary TNG one (7th season?) when the crew started to de-evolve - Worf was pretty mental!

I quite liked Enterprise - always been a fan of more 'gritty' sci-fi where the solution isn't always some technobabble, but might just involve some good ol' fashioned thinking and blowing stuff up...although I think they took that too far in the last 3 films, with Enterprise-D being destroyed and Enterprise-E leaving a large section of itself in an enemy vessel...

[killingtime]

I quite liked Enterprise - always been a fan of more 'gritty' sci-fi where the solution isn't always some technobabble, but might just involve some good ol' fashioned thinking and blowing stuff up...

I didn't really watch Enterprise, I watched the first season for a bit but then they played the Time Travel card way to early.

I'm a fan of shades of grey in my fiction (so not just Good Vs Evil) and I love much more personal conflict etc (though some big space battles can be good). I love the human element in Firefly; just each character seemed to have such good development and... and... :tears:. For the same reason I've been enjoying Battlestar Galactica though I haven't seen the second season yet.

[andystyle]

I didn't really watch Enterprise, I watched the first season for a bit but then they played the Time Travel card way to early.

I'm a fan of shades of grey in my fiction (so not just Good Vs Evil) and I love much more personal conflict etc (though some big space battles can be good). I love the human element in Firefly; just each character seemed to have such good development and... and... :tears:. For the same reason I've been enjoying Battlestar Galactica though I haven't seen the second season yet.

I've never seen Firefly...will have to look into that.

I don't think the time-travel thing was bad in Enterprise, IMHO. Yeah, having seen what it was like in previous series might make you worry, but it was a good storyline handle which they could keep coming back to.

However, had they involved the TNG crowd in any way, it would have been a completely different question...

[killingtime]

I've never seen Firefly...will have to look into that.

No! Don't do it! I saw that Firefly was on TV and went "oh, that's that program that was canned, well I don't want to start watching that otherwise I might get into it and then become one of those fans that spend their days on forums whining about how they cancelled it and how fabulous it was". Then I picked it up when it was cheap and, sure enough, went "How could they have killed this?" like all those other fan[boys|girls].

Don't become one of us :D.

[MartinHarper]

In my first post I was referring to newer Warp systems, as used from TNG onwards where Warp 10 is the limit, as it is infinite speed....

Ok, but in your first post you also said:


So far, the arguement has edged towards the use of Hyperspace could theoretically be the faster means as Warp travel has a limit of Warp 10.

How do you go faster than infinite?

[killingtime]

How do you go faster than infinite?

Like, infinite squared or something :D.

Do they not use "light speed" as a term in Star Wars at some point or was that on the ride? Light speed isn't generally fast enough for most of these sci fi things, indeed it is considered quite slow (though I get that 10 years between stars doesn't make for great TV).

I mentioned it on another thread but I shall mention it again here (since it is sort of related). Though we might not be able to answer which one is faster we can see which one is bigger at that place that shows the sizes of spaceships (http://www.merzo.net/).

[andystyle]

Because in the Star trek universe, starships travel by wrapping themselves in a warp bubble, which moves through our dimension of space. Dubious physics - or just not developed yet - but that's how it was explained.

Hyperspace involved the vessel entering another dimension (like subspace in Star Trek) where there are, I imagine, different rules. So it basically circumvents any speed limitation.

Added to which, Warp 10 is a Star Trek rule and therefore not applicable to any other sci-fi series.

[killingtime]

Added to which, Warp 10 is a Star Trek rule and therefore not applicable to any other sci-fi series.

I suppose what Mr Harper is getting at is that if you can get from A to B ignoring how far B is away from A in 0 seconds then others can't get faster than that (Yog-sothoth is faster, I guess, since he is coterminous with all space and time but ignoring that). It's still boils down to which fiction do they go faster in discussion which is a strange argument to be having.

[Stuart M]

I mentioned it on another thread but I shall mention it again here (since it is sort of related). Though we might not be able to answer which one is faster we can see which one is bigger at that place that shows the sizes of spaceships (http://www.merzo.net/).

It's a lovely site but as far as I can see, fails to include the Liberator. Fairly whopping omission from my POV (albeit an understandable one, given the site is US-based).

[andystyle]

It's still boils down to which fiction do they go faster in discussion which is a strange argument to be having.

I guess that it's something that will never be categorically answered, unless someone Googles it and finds a site that gives a decent answer.

Another thing that I never quite understood were speeds. In Star Trek you had a maximum warp, and the vessel could go at any speed between these. In Star Wars, there was hyperspace, with the MF being very fast. Could they select what speed they could go at? Or was it a case of 'We want to arrive then, so we set off then...' Arguably they'd have to, as if there was a fleet of ships going into battle, it would be interesting trying to coordinate the jumps so they all arrived at the same time!!

[TheTramp]

:shrugs:

Read Julian Mays books which started off the the Saga of the Exiles.

Marc Remillard could be instantaneously anywhere in the universe.

I think that's likely to be the winner.

[Stuart M]

:shrugs:

Read Julian Mays books which started off the the Saga of the Exiles.

Marc Remillard could be instantaneously anywhere in the universe.

I think that's likely to be the winner.
Fine and dandy if you're Marc Remillard, but what if you're trying to see the wonders of the Galaxy on less than 50 Altairian dollars a day?

[killingtime]

Another thing that I never quite understood were speeds. In Star Trek you had a maximum warp, and the vessel could go at any speed between these. In Star Wars, there was hyperspace, with the MF being very fast. Could they select what speed they could go at? Or was it a case of 'We want to arrive then, so we set off then...' Arguably they'd have to, as if there was a fleet of ships going into battle, it would be interesting trying to coordinate the jumps so they all arrived at the same time!!

Well the Star Trek Compendium (not that I've ever owned such a beast) had the exact speed listing of various warp speeds. How fast each was in light years per second or whatever. Star Wars, like it should have been for the films, didn't. They got there when it was cinematic for them to do so. The MF was faster than other ships, apparently, but they didn't worry about this only that it apparently got their faster. I know the roleplaying game has a base unit and multiplier so if a Star Destroyer is 1.0x then the MF might be 2.0x meaning if we say it takes a week to get from A to B then it gets there in half the time.

It's a different concept from one trying to define everything in "some understood unit" and the other just saying "meh, some sci fi stuff". Your "hardcore sci-fi" readers/viewers/whatever will probably want more of the former (though they'd probably want a good reason for being able to go faster than light in the first place). Whereas your "fantasy sci-fi" bunch are easy with "it just works that way, ok".

[TheTramp]

Fine and dandy if you're Marc Remillard, but what if you're trying to see the wonders of the Galaxy on less than 50 Altairian dollars a day?

Better practice that thumb thingy eh! :wink:

[MartinHarper]

I suppose what Mr Harper is getting at is that if you can get from A to B ignoring how far B is away from A in 0 seconds then others can't get faster than that.

Precisely. Saying that Star Trek ships are "limited" to warp 10 is meaningless.


but surely you can only see through time and space with the melange? not travel.

Yep. Travelling quickly is achieved with Holtzman effect. The melange allows the navigator to avoid crashing. This is reminiscent of Holly on Red Dwarf complaining about the difficulty of avoiding collisions when travelling faster than the speed of light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holtzman_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melange

[Ghost]

Sorry, in my first post I was talking about Babylon5's Hyperspace system. I forgot that Star Wars also uses the same name for it. Apologees. :blush:
Unless I'm missing something really obvious, the answer is Warp Drive. As Martin says top speed is infinity, whereas in Babylon 5 they had to travel for days just to get from one part of the Universe to the other.

I suppose you could argue which is faster the maximum warp drive acheived in Star Trek vs Hyperspace in B5, but the Tom Paris episode kind a messes that up too.

I guess the answer is hyperspace or warp drive will only allow you travel fast enough to dramatically accelerate the plot without wrecking it.


Paris: Captain you won't believe how far we've travelled!!
Janeway: Oh well, Warp Factor 10 then
Janeway: Oh good we're home.

:devil:

(Actually shouldn't the device which kicked Voyager across the Universe in the first place get dibs on 'fastest' as it took both them and the Borg a lot longer to get back to Earth?)

[andystyle]

The fact that there is a Warp 10 limit doesn't mean that they can actually travel at Warp 10. Episode shenanigans aside, the idea is that you can travel at any speed, but not beyond Warp 10. As engines developed they would redefine the scale - I would imagine more efficient power sources could get you closer to Warp 10, but never actually to Warp 10. If the scale is exponential, even an warp factor increase of 0.001 would be a large increase in the factor of light speed they were going at.

So yes, in theory warp drive is the fastest, but in practice it's not...

[Ghost]

So yes, in theory warp drive is the fastest, but in practice it's not...
JMS once said that there was a friendly rivalry between the FX guys on B5 and Star Trek to see who could come up with the coolest stuff each week. Don't know if it applied to whose method of transport was faster, but it would explain why the top warp factor in Star Trek kept getting gradually higher :whistle:

I know both Universes have Earth in them. Are there any other common points of reference?

[Beowulf]

ahem.. May I?

Colonel Sandurz: Prepare ship for light speed.
Dark Helmet: No, no, no, light speed is too slow.
Colonel Sandurz: Light speed, too slow?
Dark Helmet: Yes, we're gonna have to go right to ludicrous speed.


Barf: What the hell was that?
Lone Starr: Spaceball One...
Barf: They've gone to plaid!

[Shodan]

Unless I'm missing something really obvious, the answer is Warp Drive. As Martin says top speed is infinity, whereas in Babylon 5 they had to travel for days just to get from one part of the Universe to the other.

I suppose you could argue which is faster the maximum warp drive acheived in Star Trek vs Hyperspace in B5, but the Tom Paris episode kind a messes that up too.
Sorry, I'm not too good at explained the rules of the game for this am I? :rofl:

What I meant was a comparison between non-infinite speed Warp Drive vs Babylon5's style Hyperspace where you physically enter another dimension.

Assuming Warp 10 (infinite speed) wasn't possible, which would be quicker?

I'm guessing it would be down to the scriptwriter who designs the rules of their "hyperspace dimension" and how fast a ship could move there.

BTW, I saw a few posts up above about Firefly - now that was a brilliant Sci-Fi show and I can't believe it got cancelled either. :confused:

[Shodan]

Oh, has anyone seen "Star Wreck - In The Pirkinning"?

Its basically "When Star Trek Met Babylon 5". It was done by a Finnish company, so the audio is all in Finnish, but has English Subtitles.

For a free film its amazingly well done and the special effects are good. Tons of big starship battles too.

http://www.starwreck.com/

[straycat]

Dark Helmet: No, no, no, light speed is too slow.
Colonel Sandurz: Light speed, too slow?


Well - it has slowed down a lot (http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf/topics/lightfreeze/lightfreeze.html) in recent years. Faster-than light travel is easy these days ;)

[killingtime]

I'm guessing it would be down to the scriptwriter who designs the rules of their "hyperspace dimension" and how fast a ship could move there.

Well lets take it a bit more abstract. Warp works by shrinking space in front of you and expanding it behind you (a bit like a wake). Hyperspace basically works by a ship shifting to a another dimension or short cutting the traditional three (four) dimensional model by cutting through another dimension.

Lets see what other geeks say:

Predictably Star Trek has a formula which is an image so I shan't copy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_%28Star_Trek%29#Warp_velocities) (even if it was MathML I'm not sure this would support the tags. However the speed they could do reliably in Voyager was Warp 9.9753: 1.8x10^9 km/s. Which is pretty fast. I don't know why they have it in km/s though rather than 1.8x10^12m/s.

From the Star Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperspace_%28science_fiction%29#Star_Wars) entry:


In any case, hyperspace is an extremely fast method of travel, as Obi-Wan and Luke's journey from Tatooine to Alderaan is theorized to have only taken two days maximum, whereas these two planets are separated by half a galaxy or more. Darth Maul took approximately seven hours to travel from Coruscant to Tatooine. The movies, as well as multiple Expanded Universe sources, show hyperspace as having a mottled, blue-and-black appearance. An entry into hyperspace shows the stars stretch into starlines, then turn into the mottled appearance. Externally, a ship entering hyperspace is described in Timothy Zahn's novels as displaying a flicker of pseudomotion before disappearing. Like the above-mentioned Star Trek series, "holocomm" transmissions are featured in Star Wars as long-range, faster-than-light communications signals, sent through hyperspace.

Hyperspace speed is calculated with classes. Known classes are: 0.5 (Millennium Falcon), ~1 (X-wings), 1-2 (capital ships like Star Destroyers), 3 (Death Star), 4 (bulk transports, Advanced TIEs).

So Star Wars hyperspace appears faster than a non-Warp 10 Star Trek ship. Got no idea about Babylon 5. I'm still not sure why I'm debating this: read about general relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity) instead... much more factual :D.

[Shodan]

Nice post their KillingTime, very informative. :waycool:

[pmjd]

As far as I can remember the best summing up about the speed of spaceships in Babylon 5 came from the shows' creator J. Micheal Straczynski.

"they move at the speed of plot"

which I think is a nice summing up:nice:

[Beowulf]

Forget light speed, hyperspace, ludicrous speed , Plot speed etc... I move at the speed of dark. It doesn't matter how fast light travels.. it's always dark before it gets there ;)

[stewart38]

Because in the Star trek universe, starships travel by wrapping themselves in a warp bubble, which moves through our dimension of space. Dubious physics - or just not developed yet - but that's how it was explained.





There was a book (im sure there are many) re what couldn’t happen in the future based on our understanding of physics

It dismissed many of the star treck ideas apart from massive increase in computer capacity etc i.e. law of of physics wouldn’t allow transporters etc etc

I wonder what someone from 1510 would think was ‘possible’ based on their understanding of physics or isn’t that a fair analogy now based on our understanding of the universe

Ok im going to look for the super string for my xmas presents

[Beowulf]

m going to look for the super string for my xmas presents

"Pete Are you some sort of weird space alien?"
"No I'm a frayed knot"

I'm a tangle in super string.. would explain a lot really ;) :D

[andystyle]

Having just watched the 2003 mini-series last night (got it for £4.99 online), the FTL shown here seems quite nippy. Bright flash, suddenly elsewhere - no apparent transit time (although when Galactica comes out of FTL, the camera pans arounds the control centre and the clock is blinking away with no time on it)

Still, it's a good one - doesn't appear to need any particular point in space to use either.