Dancing at half-time to slow a fast track

[Andy McGregor]

you can always lead smaller or at half-time on a really fast track - where we just have to try to keep up! Now this is one of my gripes that I've never mentioned on here. Half-time or halving the beat is, IMHO, rubbish, complete rubbish. Take one of the fastest tracks you'd ever get played at a normal (ish) MJ night: it's probably 168 bpm. Halve that and you've got 84 bpm - that's too slow for MJ, miles too slow. But the first bit of the above is completely right. Lead smaller steps. If your step is normally 12 inches, you can halve your speed by making your steps 6 inches.

[ducasi]

Now this is one of my gripes that I've never mentioned on here. Half-time or halving the beat is, IMHO, rubbish, complete rubbish. Take one of the fastest tracks you'd ever get played at a normal (ish) MJ night: it's probably 168 bpm. Halve that and you've got 84 bpm - that's too slow for MJ, miles too slow.
I disagree with this, but I think a good compromise is to dance *parts* of fast songs at half speed.

[MartinHarper]

(jargon sucks, so here's the obligatory explanatory link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_beat

I think half-timing works best when I half-time parts of moves where ordinarilly I'd be stepping on every single beat. For example, if I half-time "fast penguin walks" I get "slow penguin walks". In the former I step on every beat, in the latter I step on every downbeat. Both work, both look reasonably MJ-ish, both get taught in lessons. Half-timing works badly if I half-time moves or parts of moves where ordinarilly I'd be stepping/moving only on the downbeats. For example, a half-time Arm Jive typically doesn't feel so hot.
Dancing an entire song in half time just sucks.

[LMC]

Now this is one of my gripes that I've never mentioned on here.

:what: :really: (Victor Meldrew moment :wink: )

On second thoughts, I think ducasi probably has it right (EDIT: & MH - crosspost) - dancing the whole of a fast track at slow blues tempo might not work too well - depends on the track and the quality of the lead I guess [shrug]

Some of the more, er, "not normal" tracks are VERY fast - Jon B has certainly come up with some corkers, and I remember a dance with Gadget at the last BFG to one of CJ's more 'interesting' finds - started v-e-r-y slow (put it this way, Gadget said it was even too slow for him - yep, really) and speeded up... considerably! - and that was luvverly at 'half-time' :nice:

[Andy McGregor]

(jargon sucks, so here's the obligatory explanatory link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_beat

I think half-timing works best when I half-time parts of moves where ordinarilly I'd be stepping on every single beat. Martin is talking about something completely different here - and, for once, he's completely right (as opposed to his liking for guys dancing in shorts which is an insult to humanity). It's OK to step on every second beat. But the move you're doing is still done at the right speed for MJ. If it wasn't you wouldn't be doing MJ. Instead of dancing on beat 1 and 3 you'd be dancing on beat 1 or 3 in each bar. That means you'd move once for each bar - try it, you look like the slo-mo at the start of 6 million dollar man.

[Andy McGregor]

I disagree with this, but I think a good compromise is to dance *parts* of fast songs at half speed.You can't always be right - and this is one of those times.

[Trouble]

Now this is one of my gripes that I've never mentioned on here. Half-time or halving the beat is, IMHO, rubbish, complete rubbish. Take one of the fastest tracks you'd ever get played at a normal (ish) MJ night: it's probably 168 bpm. Halve that and you've got 84 bpm - that's too slow for MJ, miles too slow. But the first bit of the above is completely right. Lead smaller steps. If your step is normally 12 inches, you can halve your speed by making your steps 6 inches.

When you learn musicality, this should enable you to find other beats in the music and not just the obvious fast one. If you can do this, you can go at any speed, put many breaks and slow it down in numerous places. Its not just a case of halving the beat is it.

[LMC]

:yeah:

Dancing to different accents in the music could slow things down. Hijacking also helps :devil: (taking a coupla extra counts to a return is one of my favourites to catch my breath)

[David Franklin]

When you learn musicality, this should enable you to find other beats in the music and not just the obvious fast one. If you can do this, you can go at any speed, put many breaks and slow it down in numerous places. Its not just a case of halving the beat is it.I'm not understanding how you'd do this in practice. Could you pick a track (or section thereof) and explain how you'd dance to it at, say, 2/3rds speed or thereabouts?


Dancing to different accents in the music could slow things down. Hijacking also helps (taking a coupla extra counts to a return is one of my favourites to catch my breath)Yes, you can use accents, phrasing and slowing a move to give yourself breathing space, but I don't really see that as the same as dancing at any speed. It seems to me you are either dancing at full speed, dancing at 1/2,1/3 or slower speed, or effectively stopped (e.g. on a break). But you are pretty much always dancing with a period that is an integral multiple of the beat. (The average speed over a dance might be something else, but hey, I can do that by dancing full speed to the first half of the track and then getting a beer...)

[ducasi]

When you learn musicality, this should enable you to find other beats in the music and not just the obvious fast one. If you can do this, you can go at any speed, put many breaks and slow it down in numerous places. Its not just a case of halving the beat is it.
:yeah:

Rather than dance in "half-time", I'd just dance to a different beat.

(Which would make a good tag – "dances to a different beat")

[Andy McGregor]

:yeah:

Rather than dance in "half-time", I'd just dance to a different beat.

(Which would make a good tag – "dances to a different beat")I've seen many people who 'dance to a different beat'. They're called bad dancers. The music has a beat. To do a particular dance, let's say MJ, you dance the way the dance goes to that beat. I really, really can't imagine anybody saying, "I can find a different beat in this waltz". How could it be any different in MJ? :confused:

[Trouble]

I'm not understanding how you'd do this in practice. Could you pick a track (or section thereof) and explain how you'd dance to it at, say, 2/3rds speed or thereabouts?

)

I couldn't but i know a man who can.....CJ... help this person out.

[Trouble]

I've seen many people who 'dance to a different beat'. They're called bad dancers. The music has a beat. To do a particular dance, let's say MJ, you dance the way the dance goes to that beat. I really, really can't imagine anybody saying, "I can find a different beat in this waltz". How could it be any different in MJ? :confused:

CJ,, where are you.....help these poor people. Hate to see you confused Andy. :flower:

[MartinHarper]

"dancing to a different beat" .... yeah, I've heard that said confidently by enough people that I'd love to hear one of them give a cogent explanation of what they mean by it. Ducasi, perhaps you could give it a shot? Or we could see if Ceroc Jock will respond to Trouble's call.

[Andy McGregor]

CJ,, where are you.....help these poor people. Hate to see you confused Andy. :flower:I'm not remotely confused. There is a beat, it was put there by the composer, performer, etc. I dance to that beat. I'm not confused at all, I can hear the beat: halving it would be too big a step to take: in MJ that would mean marking one beat in every bar. The only thing that confuses me is how any good dancer can think this possible without looking very, very silly*.


*not that silly is unknown to me:waycool:

[TA Guy]

I was at a freestyle on Friday night that is not my normal franchise. It was my 5th or 6th visit and that freestyle always amazes me, it's like people have a speed limit. I swear if a song goes above about 120bpm, the whole room limits itself to 120bpm and just won't dance faster. What's more, they look excellent, very smooth, by and large a very high standard. It's just so different from my normal dance environment where we are all force fed 120-130bpm+ all the time and essentially learn to dance to fast music or die. I was trying to work out how they set their 'speed', and I couldn't. They weren't dancing to a different instrument (than the main/MJ beat), they weren't dancing in half-time, or any other fraction of 'time' :) It was just like an upper limit had been reached, and that was that. The whole room!!! (well, okay, one or two could manage the correct beat :)) I just find it so weird so many otherwise really excellent dancers could have this blind spot in one place. I've never come across anything like it before on all my travels.

...

My feeling is it's not about musicality. MJ has a main beat, usually the main drum (or bass, but not exclusively), that is what MJ is danced to. If you dance to some other beat for the whole song that is not musicality, that's either just not dancing to the correct beat, or I would think a different genre of dance (and fair enough, but by accepted definitions, I don't think it's MJ ?).
As someone above said, and I do it myself, periods or moments not dancing to the correct beat can be useful, even desired (that's where I would say it becomes musicality), but to do it for the whole song is not my cup of tea. We all have an upper speed limit or some kind of limits of some kind, but the main beat (as in the main MJ beat) is there and part of what makes MJ actually MJ is that beat. I realize from a couple of other posts in this thread some people have other preferences, but, for me, getting musicality involved doesn't necessarily mean dancing to slower beats or in pseudo 'half-time'. It's perfectly possible to do musicality to fast music, it may well be harder, but definitely possible. You just have to look at some good Lindy dancers.

...

Anyways, when I personally talk about half-time (usually in the context of dancing slower to a fast song), I am lying. Half-time would be too slow as was said. What I mean is, I dance six beats to an eight beat bar, or something like that, just significantly slower. I'm not entirely sure myself, because I only do this when my partner requires it (Hmmm, a boring diet of 120-130bpm+ thump thump music has lots of disadvantages, but it does mean most of the experienced ladies can dance to a reasonably fast beat :)). I/We either find a slower beat from a different instrument/vocal (usually not particularly keen on this for the whole song), or if I can't, I let them set some arbitory slower pace not related to any instrument/vocal I can hear (really not keen on this, I find it difficult). It can be frustrating, as someone who likes a fast dance from time to time, if a favourite fast song comes on and I have to cockup the beat.

[David Bailey]

I'm not remotely confused. There is a beat, it was put there by the composer, performer, etc. I dance to that beat.
I would put it a bit more loosely - I dance within the structure provided by the beat, rather than, for example, moving my legs with every beat. But that's probably what Andy's saying anyway, so I guess I should have just put :yeah: and saved all that typing...


I I'm not confused at all, I can hear the beat: halving it would be too big a step to take: in MJ that would mean marking one beat in every bar. The only thing that confuses me is how any good dancer can think this possible without looking very, very silly*.
It's certainly possible, but then you're not really dancing MJ, it's more like Blues or AT.

And I also don't see how anyone can really dance at 1/3 time, or 2/3 for that matter. Well, I suppose it's possible, technically, but it'd be very weird...

[straycat]

I've seen many people who 'dance to a different beat'. They're called bad dancers. The music has a beat.

The music very often has thing called a rythmn. It's sometimes a lot more fun to dance to that than be restricted by that stuffy old beat thing ;)

(And yeah - I know I'm over-simplifying. To put it mildly)

[David Franklin]

The music very often has thing called a rythmn. O RLY?

(Though I grant you it might have a rhythm).

Pedantry aside - as DJ says, "dancing 2/3 speed using the rhythm" might be possible, but I don't believe it would work at practice. I think it's particularly difficult given the normal 'rhythm structure' of MJ emphasising every other beat. I would be very interested to see a clip (from MJ) proving me wrong. (I suspect Amir could do it, or at least get very close).

[Lee Bartholomew]

Some times you don't have to dance to the drums. Follow guitar, bass or vocals.

Sometimes the drums don't follow a 1-2-3-4 pattern. Was trying to demonstrate this as a lesson on Sunday. Use the pussycat dolls song "Don't cha" as an example (like it or loath it, you know it). The drum patterns are 1,2,1 &2 1,2,1 &2. A slight pause between the thrid and fourth drum in the bar. It's a common drum pattern.

Athough I agree with Andy :what:. You can not change beats per bar. In MJ there will always be 4 beats per bar. You cant change that (unless you want to waltz).

But what you can do is change the way you could the beats. instead of 1&2&3&4 try counting 1&2&2,3,4 or any other combination of counts you can think of between 1 & 4

As long as the counts are done in the bar then you have nothing to worry about.

(will also agree that half timing is rubbish. I must be ill):grin:

[TheTramp]

Athough I agree with Andy :what:. You can not change beats per bar. In MJ there will always be 4 beats per bar. You cant change that (unless you want to waltz).

Unless the DJ plays something other than 4 beats in the bar songs. I particularly like dancing blues (which is just MJ with attitude really) to Misery by Pink & Steve Tyler. That's 3/4* :whistle:








*Although, I will acknowledge that almost all (99.999%) of the songs played are 4/4. And it is a struggle dancing basic MJ to anything else. But 'always' is such an absolute, "don't cha" think :flower:

[Whitebeard]

The music very often has thing called a rhythm. It's sometimes a lot more fun to dance to that than be restricted by that stuffy old beat thing ;)



That's certainly how I feel and I never consciously listen for, or count, the dreaded beats. I mostly choose to dance to the slower more melodic music and just dance as the music suggests. Quite often I will spot someone nearby who 'appears' to be thrashing around at a faster rate than me. Whether that is real, or just an illusion, I cannot say or explain.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Unless the DJ plays something other than 4 beats in the bar songs. I particularly like dancing blues (which is just MJ with attitude really) to Misery by Pink & Steve Tyler. That's 3/4* :whistle:








*Although, I will acknowledge that almost all (99.999%) of the songs played are 4/4. And it is a struggle dancing basic MJ to anything else. But 'always' is such an absolute, "don't cha" think :flower:

Misery is set at 3/4 which is whats commonly called waltz.

It would be good to dance to a few 3/4 tracks but it doesn't (and quite rightly shouldn't) happen at a normal MJ event as i think it would cause no end of trouble to most dancers.

[MartinHarper]

The music very often has thing called a rythmn. It's sometimes a lot more fun to dance to that than be restricted by that stuffy old beat thing.

The drums in a fast swing song are probably beating out something like:
1 2 &3 4 5 &6 7 8&1

The more obvious clackety stuff in Salsa tunes is counted as:
1 2 3 . 5 6 7 .

Meanwhile standard MJ dance is more like:
1 . 3 . 5 . 7 .

In other words, the rhythms are typically faster than the downbeats. If someone is struggling to dance to the downbeats, then they'll find dancing to the obvious rhythms harder. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any song with strong rhythms that run slower than the downbeats. Anyone help me out?

[Lee Bartholomew]

{snip}
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any song with strong rhythms that run slower than the downbeats. Anyone help me out?


Loads, if I get what your trying to say correctly. One of my current fave's "set the fire to the third bar" does that. the beat is quite quick but the rythmn and natural pace of the song is quite slow.

IMO a big diffrence between a dancer and a great dancer, Is the ability to listen to a song and not be dictated by beat.

[David Franklin]

One of my current fave's "set the fire to the third bar" does that. the beat is quite quick but the rythmn and natural pace of the song is quite slow.I'm not sure many would agree that the 'beat' you're describing as fast is actually the 'natural beat' of the track though. For example, a lot of hustle tracks have an additional high speed 'accent' beat running at 4 times the normal beat - e.g. You Make Me Feel Mighty Real. But you would never say the track was actually 400+ bpm!

[ducasi]

A fab song I haven't danced to for a while is "Rock Me" by Great White.

It has lots of bits where the beat keeps going at its consistent, relatively fast rate, but the lead guitar is playing a slower rhythm. I like to dance to the rhythm of the guitar in this song. So when the guitar is fast, I dance fast, and when the guitar is slow, I dance slow.

Again, as this is one of CJ's songs and he uses it when he's teaching musicality, he might be better qualified to comment further on this stuff.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I'm not sure many would agree that the 'beat' you're describing as fast is actually the 'natural beat' of the track though. For example, a lot of hustle tracks have an additional high speed 'accent' beat running at 4 times the normal beat - e.g. You Make Me Feel Mighty Real. But you would never say the track was actually 400+ bpm!

Im a fairly good musician and know what I am talking about beat wise :na:

It is about as quick as the forementioned pussycat dolls song. Though you wouldn't disco to it as it has a very slow under beat (which is what your thinking is the beat me's thinks) and rythm. Is great for slow tangoy type moves or slow bluesy stuff.

[Lou]

Loads, if I get what your trying to say correctly. One of my current fave's "set the fire to the third bar" does that. the beat is quite quick but the rythmn and natural pace of the song is quite slow.
Is that the Snow Patrol song? I just looked it up on iTunes & listened to the 30 sec sample. I also did a rough count and it came out at about 94bpm. That's not a fast beat.

Of course, the song may speed up. Or there may be a different mix. But I could only listen to those 30 seconds. (And I suspect any more & I would've been asleep..... ;) )

[Lee Bartholomew]

Is that the Snow Patrol song? I just looked it up on iTunes & listened to the 30 sec sample. I also did a rough count and it came out at about 94bpm. That's not a fast beat.

Of course, the song may speed up. Or there may be a different mix. But I could only listen to those 30 seconds. (And I suspect any more & I would've been asleep..... ;) )

Its 126bpm

[Lou]

Its 126bpm

Cite?

BTW... this is the url to the version I was listening to:

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=203264004&selectedItemId=203264007

[Lee Bartholomew]

Cite?

I play it.

Also have a tap metronome. play a song and tap the beat on the met, it gives you the bpm.

[Lou]

I play it.

Also have a tap metronome. play a song and tap the beat on the met, it gives you the bpm.

That's not far off the method I used. I tapped & counted the beats during the 30 sec sample. I can't make it 126bpm though. :confused: I could offer you 96bpm? I ain't prepared to go any higher! :D

Something just occured to me... maybe you play it a bit fast? ;)

[Lee Bartholomew]

That's not far off the method I used. I tapped & counted the beats during the 30 sec sample. I can't make it 126bpm though. :confused: I could offer you 96bpm? I ain't prepared to go any higher! :D

Something just occured to me... maybe you play it a bit fast? ;)

Was it off a tap metronome?

Nope dont play it fast :D. Worked it off the record. Have the album so unless its a diffrent version you are listening too, I stand by my claim. :na:

[Lou]

Was it off a tap metronome?
No - far less high tech. I counted the beats* & worked it out myself (I got Craig to do the sums, though....)!


Nope dont play it fast :D. Worked it off the record. Have the album so unless its a diffrent version you are listening too, I stand by my claim. :na:
Well - if you have iTunes, follow the link above & tell me if it's the same version! :D

*You know, those pesky things that determine the tempo... ;)

[David Franklin]

Its 126bpmSo you're saying 126bpm is quite quick? :confused:

(I agree with Lou, by the way - 96 bpm using a bpm calculator on the version here (http://www.amazon.com/Eyes-Open-Snow-Patrol/dp/B000F3UADO)).

[Tessalicious]

The drums in a fast swing song are probably beating out something like:
1 2 &3 4 5 &6 7 8&1

The more obvious clackety stuff in Salsa tunes is counted as:
1 2 3 . 5 6 7 .

Meanwhile standard MJ dance is more like:
1 . 3 . 5 . 7 .

In other words, the rhythms are typically faster than the downbeats. If someone is struggling to dance to the downbeats, then they'll find dancing to the obvious rhythms harder. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any song with strong rhythms that run slower than the downbeats. Anyone help me out?What about the claves in a salsa or cha-cha track? (this is one of ESG's favourite rhythms, so I'll bring it into the discussion for him since he's not around).

This is a rhythm of 5 clave sounds in defined places over the space of two bars (your 8 beats above) but in an irregular pattern. It's quite tricky to dance to the clave (rather than doing the salsa/chacha that is the more obvious option) but it does work, and can be great fun in allowing you to challenge your perception of where steps belong rhythmically.

And they're a very strong percussive rhythm that runs slower than the 4-in-a-bar beat. :nice:

[MartinHarper]

From the sample, I'll go for "Set the fire to the third bar" as ~95bpm too. I could believe that it goes into a faster mode later on in the song.


This is a rhythm of 5 clave sounds in defined places over the space of two bars (your 8 beats above) but in an irregular pattern.

I struggle to understand salsa music, but... if there's 5 clave sounds over two bars, that's one more than the number of down-beats over two bars (8 beats in 2 bars, but 4 down-beats). So you'd end up dancing 25% faster than normal.
Having said that, I guess you could treat two of the claves as up-beats and so end up dancing 25% slower than normal (on average). That sounds like it's going to be too challenging for me, but for folks who are more skilled and better acquainted with the music, I believe you that it's possible. I'd like to see it done.


A fab song I haven't danced to for a while is "Rock Me" by Great White. It has lots of bits where the beat keeps going at its consistent, relatively fast rate, but the lead guitar is playing a slower rhythm.

http://www.amazon.com/Great-White-Greatest-Hits/dp/B00005BJBP

There's no way that dancing to that should make anyone break out into a sweat (136 bpm?), but it'd be interesting to hear the change over to the slower guitar. I'll have to listen to the other samples and think about getting the album.

[Andy McGregor]

I'm a fairly good musician and know what I am talking about beat wise :na:This from a guy who says he's a great spinner and then posts a link to him spinning in a way that isn't great at all. It makes me wonder how good a lover woodface is - no, don't tell me, woodface, I think I know the answer to this one ...

.. let's hope he doesn't post a vid :sick:

[Caro]

Sometimes the drums don't follow a 1-2-3-4 pattern. (snip)

Use the pussycat dolls song "Don't cha" as an example (like it or loath it, you know it). The drum patterns are 1,2,1 &2 1,2,1 &2. A slight pause between the thrid and fourth drum in the bar.


and that would make a natural triple step while dancing... :whistle:

(sorry am I going off topic suggesting dancing WCS instead of dancing half beat to a fast track ? :innocent:)

EDIT (hadn't seen the second page, oops)


I'll have to listen to the other samples and think about getting the album.

I would really recommend it, there's also 'The House of Broken Love' on it (well on Greatest hits album) which is a fab tune to dance to :respect: (thanks CJ)

[straycat]

In other words, the rhythms are typically faster than the downbeats. If someone is struggling to dance to the downbeats, then they'll find dancing to the obvious rhythms harder. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any song with strong rhythms that run slower than the downbeats. Anyone help me out?

Depends what rhythms you're talking about. Rhythms often abound in every part of the song, from the vocals, through each of the instruments - for an example, try the Tom Waites version of Heart Attack and Vine - where one of the main percussive / rhythmic elements is his voice.

The reason I reacted a bit strongly to the suggestion that you need to stick rigidly to the beat (apart from having been in a foul mood yesterday) is that I see that as a very good way to miss out on half the complexities and subtleties of a track. To some songs, for example, I love to pick one or two elements of a track and dance to, or around those. The beat is nothing more than a guide - not to be ignored, but not to be rigidly adhered to either. Of course - there are some fantastic tracks which don't even have a beat, but are still amazing to dance to - and others which have such an awkward timing that following the beat (whether with single, half or double time) feels ... just ... wrong - but where playing around with the timing constantly can work really really well.

So for a fast track, if I want to take it slower, I won't generally half-time it, although I gather some of the top lindy folk of the thirties and forties used to do exactly that at times... but I may well look for elements of the track that I can use to slow my dancing down for the odd phrase, bar, section - whatever, rather than following only the fast stuff.