stiff shoulders

[JerryC]

I've not been dancing too long but I've noticed that my partner's shoulders get very stiff after several dances...and they stay that way for the rest of the night. This makes leading rather difficult, I get out of sync, and it's not so enjoyable any more. What's worse is that if I tell her, she either refuses to believe me, or she gets :reallymad and they get even stiffer! I honestly don't think that she can tell whether her shoulders are stiff or not.

Anyone got any ideas on this? Is it just down to;
* lack of mobility in shoulder joint?
* lack of fitness?
* nervousness?
* dehydration?

And any solutions? Good stretching exercises or shoulder relaxation routines?

Thanks

JerryC

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Could be not warming up, or maybe she's just not used to the movements yet.

Is it just when she's dancing with you, or does she get it with all partners? Maybe you're leading to firmly- try to loosen off your lead a bit?

[DavidB]

There can be loads of reasons for this:
- Some ladies stiffen their arms & shoulders as a defense against 'over-enthusiastic' leads.
- Others stiffen their arms because they can't feel any lead from the man.
- A lot of ladies get told that they need to have more 'connection', but never get told what this is.
- If you are out of sync, then the connection can feel very stiff. This could be the cause, not the effect...
- Or it might be a physical problem, as you suggest.

My advice would be to ask the teacher to dance with her. And be ready to accept that your lead may be the problem. Whatever you do, don't try to correct any problem yourself - it is not worth arguing about.

David

[Millimole]

It could be the start of a 'frozen shoulder' - I've had this in both shoulders and can be caused by being 'pulled about' (I caused my first one by swinging myself on stair banisters several times a day going down stairs!).
It can be bl**dy painful, and so can the treatment!

I've had mine for about 10 years now, (all treatments have failed) and when I took up Ceroc very recently (less than 2 months) I was very aprehensive because of the limited shoulder movement I have - but I've found that the excersize I get on a ceroc night actually does me good and only the first couple of weeks did I have any lasting pain.

Get the shoulder checked over by a GP, and ask for a referal to a rheumatologist and/or a physiotherapist - better safe than sorry!

[JerryC]

She has complained of being "pulled about" on occassion and has had some problems with her shoulder from that. I think I will get an opinion on my lead from other dancers to see if I am contributing to the problem in a major or minor way. She is a bit reluctant to dance with other people which probably compounds the problem. I have to dance with her most of the time, and I guess we probably both have faults (being relative beginners) so dancing record after record must build up the tension in the shoulders from repeating the same faulty techniques over and over. Getting her to dance with other people (which means I could also dance with other people) would probably help.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Millimole
It could be the start of a 'frozen shoulder' -

Frozen shoulders are often caused by muscles being hypertonic - set too short and contracted, which does not allow for much "stretch" without pain. Being as Ceroc is mostly led through the movement of the shoulder/arm muscles, this might be the problem. A good kinesiologist/physio/massage therapist would probably be able to work with this and re-set the muscles on a slacker tension.

Hope this is of help!

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JerryC
She has complained of being "pulled about" on occassion and has had some problems with her shoulder from that.

Looks to me like your girlfriend has already told you what the problem is, so why not LISTEN.

... and to quote David B "Some ladies stiffen their arms & shoulders as a defense against 'over-enthusiastic' leads " which I might add, are usually less experienced dancers.

Speaking from experience, my shoulders stiffen up for that very reason and I can assure you, it carries to the next dancer and can become very painful - hence taking the enjoyment out of the dance.

My advice would be that your partner does not dance with you for a night and chooses either taxi dancers/good leads or dancers that she is comfortable dancing with. I would also suggest that you speak with the teacher and tell him of the problem, as it sounds to me as though you may be using too much force or jerking her arms in order to get her to follow. This really isn't necessary. The best leads actually LEAD you into a move, without any force or jerking of arms at all, regardless of the move.

Apologies for being so blunt, but it's much better to fix the problem now, else not only will it get worse, but it may put your partner off dancing completely and that would be a shame.

TT :cheers:

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Wise words TT.

Stiff shoulders is bad enough, but I have other stiff bits some nights. Nothing a good massage can't fix.
:cheers:

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Basil Brush
Wise words TT.

Stiff shoulders is bad enough, but I have other stiff bits some nights. Nothing a good massage can't fix.
:cheers:

LOL :rofl: .... well, I guess that's where you have the advantage over most men, since you have 4 paws to choose from. Tell me, are you left or right pawed !!!

... and I hope you treat your paws to a good helping of paw cream first ... unless of course you like a bit of rough !!!

TT x

[JerryC]

She has complained of being "pulled about" on occassion and has had some problems with her shoulder from that.

If I was honest I would have to say that I sometimes have pulled her in the wrong direction, especially when trying to learn new moves, but not that often. Probably about as often as she has stood on my toes or almost broken my fingers. (And for both of us, much less now than when were first starting.) Her complaints are usually about one or two others that she has to dance with during class who have too strong a lead; or as she puts it "try to pull her arms off!"

I guess one of the problems of the Ceroc format is that you never get any individual feedback about how well you are doing in a group class. You just have to make some sort of intuitive guess about how well you are leading from the few comments that other dancers give you. [You'd have to be quite a confident person as a relative beginner to drag your teacher out of the bar (which is where most seem to head straight after the lesson) to get them to check that you'd mastered that night's moves and/or that you have a good technique as well.]

[CJ]

Hi, Jerry.

Teachers are there to teach!! That is not exclusive to a class... as long as they are there, at a Ceroc night, they are fair game.

Never, EVER, be nervous of approaching a Ceroc teacher or, for that matter, a taxi dancer. They'd both be glad to help.

I'd avoid those dodgy looking DJ's, though!!:wink:

[Gary]

Originally posted by JerryC

I guess one of the problems of the Ceroc format is that you never get any individual feedback about how well you are doing in a group class. You just have to make some sort of intuitive guess about how well you are leading from the few comments that other dancers give you. [You'd have to be quite a confident person as a relative beginner to drag your teacher out of the bar (which is where most seem to head straight after the lesson) to get them to check that you'd mastered that night's moves and/or that you have a good technique as well.]

Short story: ask for feedback from the people you dance with.

Longer story: although the teacher will pick up a bunch of stuff about your dancing that "normal" folks won't, you can learn from every person you dance with. The simplest way of learning from your partner is to pay attention to how "smoothly" the moves are working. If something seems jerky, it's the lead's fault. Find a way to fix it. Try asking the follow for suggestions on how you can make things smoother.

I believe that a lot of follows have had their heads bitten off for giving useful feedback to insecure leads, and so they won't offer advice/feedback unless you ask for it. Ask for feedback "was that OK? too rough? too light?..." and thank the follow for the feedback, and do not get defensive if the feedback isn't what you like (or you won't get more feedback).

Of course if there's something that you can't get to work at all, go grab a teacher.

Apologies if this is all obvious and you're already doing it :(

[Gadget]

a couple of things I have noticed in beginners recently that may affect the shoulders;

- Traveling too far when dancing: on spins, stepping in/out, accross... if you have to bend at the waist to catch hands or reach your partner, then as a lead you need to move with your partner more, or as a follower you need to take smaller (more controlled) steps.

- Not moving to the music: {this is more complex to describe than show...} as a follower, you should follow the lead. However if you wait for the lead, then react to it, you may find that the moves are out of time with the music. As a lead, you should try to move the lady in time with the music, as a follower you should try and be aware of the music and when a lead is expected.
{I'm not describing this well... anyone get what I mean?}

- Trying to dance your dance and not your partners: OK, it is a led dance, but you are both dancing together. As a lead, you shouldn't try and force the lady to follow your path; let them go and improvise from where you end up. As a follower, you should go where you are lead, not where you think you should be.
{...and if you suceed in this, please tell me how :wink: :grin: }

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Hi, Jerry. Teachers are there to teach!! That is not exclusive to a class... as long as they are there, at a Ceroc night, they are fair game.

Ditto

Never, EVER, be nervous of approaching a Ceroc teacher or, for that matter, a taxi dancer. They'd both be glad to help.

Ditto

I'd avoid those dodgy looking DJ's, though!!:wink:

Ditto .... except the ones with tattoed lips on their butt - they're ok. :rolleyes: :D

TT x

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Twinkle Toes
[
Ditto .... except the ones with tattoed lips on their butt - they're ok. :rolleyes: :D
TT x [/B]

going to be a bit dodgy checking DJs butts for tattos though eh?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Chicklet
going to be a bit dodgy checking DJs butts for tattos though eh? I'll volunteer to do the female DJs...

[DavidB]

Originally posted by JerryC
If I was honest I would have to say that I sometimes have pulled her in the wrong direction, I think everyone has done this at some point. It is all part of learning how to lead. Unfortunately your partner's shoulder is accelerating your need to learn.

I would normally hesitate to suggest this to anyone who is pretty new to dancing, but if it helps her shoulder, it is worth it. The next time you go dancing, pick up a flyer from the table by the door. Fold it up so that it is about the same size as a £5 note. Take hold of one end between your thumb and forefinger, and get your partner to do the same. Now lead some simple moves, using this as the connection. It teaches a few different things
- This is all the 'strength' you need in the connection. If you pull too hard, one of you will let go of the paper, or it will tear in two.
- If you move too much, again you will let go or tear the paper.
- You have to be very clear with your lead. You no longer have a direct physical contact, so you have to get back to the absolute basics of leading - moving the lady's hand to get her to move her body.


David

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chicklet
going to be a bit dodgy checking DJs butts for tattos though eh?

Oh, I don't know. If they're anything like CJ, can't see there being too much of a problem. :wink:

TT x :hug:

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Twinkle Toes
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chicklet
going to be a bit dodgy checking DJs butts for tattos though eh?

Oh, I don't know. If they're anything like CJ, can't see there being too much of a problem. :wink:

TT x :hug:

you mean cos they'll all be just a bit tooooo willing to show them??xx

[CJ]

All those times I've seen you checking my butt, it was for tattoos.

Ahhhhh. Gotcha. See, if you'd just asked...:wink:

[CJ]

Originally posted by Chicklet
you mean cos they'll all be just a bit tooooo willing to show them??xx

That hurts, Chickie D.

I'm VERY discreet with all my body art!!:waycool:

[spindr]

Originally posted by JerryC
If I was honest I would have to say that I sometimes have pulled her in the wrong direction, especially when trying to learn new moves, but not that often. Probably about as often as she has stood on my toes or almost broken my fingers.[/B]

A coupla' things you can try are:
1). practice with each other gradually making the leads smaller and smaller --- keep the moves simple, and hopefully with practice you can lead/follow without much arm motion at all.
2). lead with maybe just first (or first two) fingers --- it usually makes the lead gentler and also means that if your partner holds onto your hand your fingers are more likely to rotate in their grip. [And of course they only get to break one finger at a time :) ]

Neil.