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Gus
5th-June-2003, 08:30 PM
In March I decided, for reasons that temporarily evade me, to go through the agony that is setting up a new club. Actually, the main motivator was some need in me to 'spread the word' about Modern Jive, get hordes of new dancers in through the door to see what they've been missing.

As I'm now in the standard 'make or break' point of a clubs lifecycle ... I'm having timne to reflect as to whether a club can truly exist on altruistic motivation or whether the need to make mkoney sooner or later must dominate? As a fracnhise operation I'm firmly of the view that whatever the Organisation, Ceroc, Blitz or whoever, the need for the organsiation to see money may in some way be at odds with the desire to spread the word.

Thoughts? Must Money always win or should the Mission remain?

Emma
5th-June-2003, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Gus

Thoughts? Must Money always win or should the Mission remain? As a Self Employed Person, I think the answer is 'yes'.

You have to have enough money to support yourself, or your mission..so..if your other club(s?) make enough money to support your need to 'spread the word' in a missionary fashion (that sounds a bit rude..is it me? :wink: ) then perhaps you can afford to be a little altruistic....if not..then hard decisions about where the next meal/mortgage payment is coming from will have to be made.

As I know bugger all about business of dance franchises the above opinion probably ought to be completley ignored :waycool:

Gary
5th-June-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Gus
... the need for the organisation to see money may in some way be at odds with the desire to spread the word.


Um, explain how? If you're getting lots of new people hooked on dancing, I don't see how that makes you less money (unless you're paying them to turn up?)

bigdjiver
6th-June-2003, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Thoughts? Must Money always win or should the Mission remain?

Leroc went more the mission route, Ceroc more the money way. Look at where they are now.

Chicklet
6th-June-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
Leroc went more the mission route, Ceroc more the money way. Look at where they are now.

I was under the impression that both have areas of stardom round the country more as a result of the actions of the franchisee rather than the fact that they are one or the other??

Am I wrong?

Lou
6th-June-2003, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
Leroc went more the mission route, Ceroc more the money way. Look at where they are now.
Are you forcing me to adopt the missionary position in this argument? :wink:

Ceroc's in London & Scotland, LeRoc's in Bristol. Hmmm.... what's your point? :devil:

Sandy
6th-June-2003, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Gus

Thoughts? Must Money always win or should the Mission remain?

I think being broke might negate some of those altruistic tendencies!:sad:

Sad fact I think that a business just can't exist without capital. A lot of business ventures go down the tubes in the first year due to cash flow, or lack of it! I suppose if you have heaps of cash in the bank to soften the blow of those first months of trying to balance the books and you can get enough dancers through the doors then hopefully you can have the dream (or mission!).

Good luck

Sandy:wink:

Franck
6th-June-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Gus
the need for the organsiation to see money may in some way be at odds with the desire to spread the word. Here we go, another ODA thread :nice:

Having read carefully your post, and the replies that followed, I disagree with your premise that money and mission are mutually exclusive. As Emma says, there must be enough money to fund the mission.
Ten years ago, to quote Martin Luther King, I had a dream... :nice: to get all of Scotland dancing... that dream has seen me through good and difficult times, when opening all the Ceroc nights that currently run in Scotland, and while the dream motivated me, the money is what allowed it to happen. Without steady income from the established nights, we would not have been to sustain the losses incurred at the new nights.
Aberdeen is a case in point, as it lost money for almost 2 years... without the dream, it would have been easy to give up and cut the losses, but similarly, without successful nights in Glasgow / Edinburgh, even with a mission, I could not have afforded to keep it going anyway... Thankfully, we had both, and now Aberdeen is a thriving dancing city!

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Leroc went more the mission route, Ceroc more the money way. Look at where they are now.I can see no evidence of that anywhere in the country at all, I am quite sure that both organisations and others have their fair share of inspired people as well as people that are only inspired to make money.
When James Cronin started Ceroc, money certainly was not the inspiration, he was, and still is genuinely passionate about spreading the word and getting everyone dancing, not just across the UK, but the world... without that vision, many of us would not be dancing today.

Franck.

bigdjiver
6th-June-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Lou
Are you forcing me to adopt the missionary position in this argument? :wink:

Ceroc's in London & Scotland, LeRoc's in Bristol. Hmmm.... what's your point? :devil:

Both Leroc and Ceroc are in a lot of other places, and both have been in many others. The Ceroc franchise model has succeeded, at least in member terms, to a far greater extent than the more chummy Leroc approach.

Both have been the subject of succesful go it alone revolts by the more mercenary, but once again the Ceroc descendants vastly outperform in terms of members. There have also been unsuccesful revolts by less able business people.

The successes have a strong dance ethos as well as sound business sense.

There are always successes and failures by individuals within organisations.

Lou
7th-June-2003, 09:17 AM
Just curious how you define success, bigdjiver.

It's true that, on the whole, our class sizes are smaller than those of a typical Ceroc class. However, that might well be down to the fact that in our one fair city we have a choice of up to 3 different classes going on the same night each week. The majority of these LeRoc classes have been going for many years.

If it's down to money making, I think that obviously the Ceroc franchise model is going to be more profitable. Especially for those at the top of the pyramid. That's why it was set up. But I doubt any of the LeRoc instructors here went into business expecting to make a load of money.

I gather that Ceroc's tried on a few occasions to break into the West Country, but not yet succeeded. However, LeRoc has and Ginger seem to be off to a good start. Would that make them more "successful"?

Yes - please define success in your terms! :nice:

Will
7th-June-2003, 01:14 PM
Lou,

I think it's fairly obvious what bigdjiver is talking about.

He comment on success was obviously looking at the overall picture, you then seemed to imply that any default comment about success had to be about Bristol, and any other definition of success had to be clearly defined (and then shot at probably)

I thought it fairly humourous when you said "we've got Bristol, you've got London and Scotland - so what's your point?", A. because Ceroc have so much more than that, and B. because even if they didn't, London & Scotland vs Bristol?? Do the maths!

However, It's not worth getting defensive about, as you are right that in Bristol and the West (and a couple of other places too, i.e. Brighton) Leroc has been more successful, and it is also true to say that Leroc nights can be just as good or better than Ceroc nights.

Your point is fair, but so is bigdjivers in my opinion. :nice:

I'm just glad that someone is successful anywhere, as it then means I can go dancing there.

Dance Demon
7th-June-2003, 02:03 PM
have been reading this thread with interest.........and thought I'd chuck in my tuppenceworth...
Last year, Dr Feelgood and me were having a chat about our love for jiving music of the Rock'n'roll, swing, blues, soul genres, and thought about how it would be good to go to a night where they played this kind of stuff all night. After a bit of thought, we decided that maybe we should give it a try ourselves. thus Route 66 was born. The Idea being that if the music was good, we would attract different styles of dancers e.g. modern jivers, swing dancers, west coast swingers, Glasgow jivers, all doing their stuff under one roof. The price was set so as it was attractive to those who struggle a bit financially e.g. students, but also so that the cost of running the night was covered. To date we have covered our costs, and any small profits made have gone into buyng the neccessary licenses i.e PPl etc needed to operate, and into finer touches like snacks on the tables etc.
In summary.....

Do people come to the club ?...Yes they do
Do they enjoy themselves........Yes they do
Are they made welcome...yes they are
Do the operators enjoy providing a venue that people enjoy.....yes they do
Do they make a huge profit.....no they don't

Is the night a success.......Yes it is
Does it try to compete with other dance nights....no it doesn't, but it provides a nice alternative once a month. with music that is different from anywhere else...

If you enjoy running a club, and it doesn't cost you money to do it,
and people enjoy the facility....then the night is successful(IMO)

If making money is your sole aim....a franchise with a larger outfit is your best bet...but there has to be a certain amount of passion for what you are doing, or it won't work.

Gus
7th-June-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver

Both have been the subject of succesful go it alone revolts by the more mercenary, but once again the Ceroc descendants vastly outperform in terms of members. There have also been unsuccesful revolts by less able business people.


Not sure what you meant by this. The major 'revolts' I'm aware of are now Blitz (ex-Ceroc North) and Mo'Jive (ex-Ceroc South) .... as far as I'm aware they are both very succesfull. I would say that these activities beat most existing Ceroc franchise operations. Does this make them more or less ethical .... don't know?

bigdjiver
7th-June-2003, 10:17 PM
Lou asked: Just curious how you define success, bigdjiver.

For me success is me being happy by making other people happier.

It was to avoid all the contentious "best nights" , "best organised" "fastest growing" "best dancing" "best tuition" and all the other various measures of success that I settled for the non-debatable feet-on-the-floor measure, current or historical.

Ceroc is aimed at the biggest sector of the entry level market, the social scene. It gives its members a clear route for progression to a very good standard of dancing. It is less concerned with art and gymnastics, but provides a home for them. It is a great first and second step for those who wish to progress to the heights, and provides a good place to go for those that reach the top.

It has achieved what it has by a clear, non-pretentious view of its business and dance model. Because it does not try to be "all-things" there is scope for other, more tightly focused operations to have business success as well, or for similar organisations to succeed in places where it has not reached, or based on exceptional individuals. There are still millions of poential members that have never heard of modern jive. I welcome diversity.

Gus wrote: "Not sure what you meant by this. "(mercenary?) "The major 'revolts' I'm aware of are now Blitz (ex-Ceroc North) and Mo'Jive (ex-Ceroc South) .... as far as I'm aware they are both very succesfull. I would say that these activities beat most existing Ceroc franchise operations. Does this make them more or less ethical .... don't know?"

I said nothing about ethics. One can never know anothers motives, only guess. One of the common reasons for leaving a franchise is to make more money, usually expressed as a desire to do things better (and so make more money). If the franchise has it less than 100% right it is easy to believe that you can fix the missing bit. If the franchise is exceptionally successful they may be right. Because a revolt is "more successful" it does not mean that they have a better overall business model, it can be down to individuals, or regional variations.

Lou
9th-June-2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Will
, you then seemed to imply that any default comment about success had to be about Bristol, and any other definition of success had to be clearly defined (and then shot at probably) I certainly didn't Will, and I'd appreciate it if you could point out where you think I did. :reallymad Please don't put words in my mouth.

Let me explain what I was trying to say last time...

If you set up an organisation as a franchise, you will be expecting to make lots of money. Fair enough. And the model works, in general. However, if we were to compare the numbers of Ceroc vs. Non-Ceroc clubs out there, you'll find it's about even (or even actually balanced towards us independants). So, the mercenary approach of Ceroc is successful, but the more localised smaller clubes are also successful in the fact that they've stayed open for many years, and taught a great number of people to dance well. To say Ceroc is successful, and the others aren't, like Bigdjiver was implying, is complete bollox. Which is why I was asking for his criteria.

bigdjiver
9th-June-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Lou
I certainly didn't Will, and I'd appreciate it if you could point out where you think I did. :reallymad Please don't put words in my mouth.

SNIP


To say Ceroc is successful, and the others aren't, like Bigdjiver was implying, is complete bollox. Which is why I was asking for his criteria.

So, where did I imply that other franchises are not successful?

It would be a very sad world if someone could not learn from a successful business model and improve upon it.

Lou
9th-June-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
So, where did I imply that other franchises are not successful?

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Leroc went more the mission route, Ceroc more the money way. Look at where they are now.
HTH :nice:

Dreadful Scathe
9th-June-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by bigjiver and again by Lou
Leroc went more the mission route, Ceroc more the money way. Look at where they are now

that does sound like an implication to me - does that put Lou ahead on points ? :)

Will
9th-June-2003, 02:42 PM
When I wrote:-


He comment on success was obviously looking at the overall picture, you then seemed to imply that any default comment about success had to be about Bristol, and any other definition of success had to be clearly defined (and then shot at probably)

Lou replied :-

Originally posted by Lou
I certainly didn't Will, and I'd appreciate it if you could point out where you think I did. :reallymad Please don't put words in my mouth.

Firstly Lou, calm down! :nice:

Secondly, when Bigdjiver claimed that Ceroc had been MORE successful than Leroc (i.e. he did not say Leroc was unsuccessful at all), you came back with:-


I gather that Ceroc's tried on a few occasions to break into the West Country, but not yet succeeded. However, LeRoc has and Ginger seem to be off to a good start. Would that make them more "successful"?

Yes - please define success in your terms!

I still can't see anything wrong with what bigdjiver said. I just think you're seeing red here. Sorry.

Will
9th-June-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
So, where did I imply that other franchises are not successful?


Precisely. Infact you actually posted :-

Both Leroc and Ceroc are in a lot of other places, and both have been in many others. The Ceroc franchise model has succeeded, at least in member terms, to a far greater extent than the more chummy Leroc approach.

I think that is significantly different from saying Leroc has been unsuccessful. Leroc hasn't been unsuccessful at all - quite the contrary in my opinion.

Lou
9th-June-2003, 03:16 PM
Ach, Will.... talk to the hand...... :wink:

CJ
9th-June-2003, 03:59 PM
Is this where Jerry introduces the surprise guest, Mr. Cronin, to sort it all out?

Graham
9th-June-2003, 04:02 PM
Isn't Jerry more likely to "reveal" that Mr Cronin has been secretly running Bristol Leroc for 5 years? :wink:

Will
9th-June-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Lou
Ach, Will.... talk to the hand...... :wink:

Hello Hand. May I have the next dance? :grin:

CJ
9th-June-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Isn't Jerry more likely to "reveal" that Mr Cronin has been secretly running Bristol Leroc for 5 years? :wink:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Lou
9th-June-2003, 05:20 PM
:rofl: indeed!

pssssstt....strictly speaking, there isn't such a thing as Bristol LeRoc.... just a bunch of independant organisations with the same word in their name.....but that's not important right now....

bigdjiver
9th-June-2003, 06:35 PM
Thanks, Will.

Of course coming second in the Olympic final is being unsuccesful in some peoples eyes.

I define success in terms of happiness. If someone starts a club, but has to close it down after a year because they cannot sustain the accumulated small losses, many, or even most, would regard that as a failure. I, and probably the organisers, would look at all of the fun they have had and pleasure they have given, and not wish away a moment of it, assuming that they were in it for love rather than money, as many are.

I have so many treasured memories from Le Jive, just as a member, that I cannot regard that as a failure.

CJ
10th-June-2003, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by Lou
:rofl: indeed!

pssssstt....strictly speaking, there isn't such a thing as Bristol LeRoc.... just a bunch of independant organisations with the same word in their name.....but that's not important right now....

I hope youare not going to let the facts get in the way of a good argument, are you?!?:wink: :innocent: