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Lee Bartholomew
28th-November-2006, 06:20 PM
Have been accused in the past of showing off.

OK I do sometimes but 99% of the time I don't but it just happens.

It does make me conscious about my dancing but thats just the way I do it.

Are there any unwritten rules on what is and isn't showing off when dancing?

Anyone else get accused?

TheTramp
28th-November-2006, 06:23 PM
Oh. Frequently.

And you know what, a small proportion of the time, I am! :whistle:

But not as often as some people think. Mostly, that's just how I dance :wink:

Ghost
28th-November-2006, 06:27 PM
Are there any unwritten rules on what is and isn't showing off when dancing?


I suspect it's similar to ponrography. "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it"

Best definition is probably just the words - when you are "showing off" something rather than just dancing. I think it's more about intention. When you're dancing for an audience (even if it's only an audience of one - your partner) rather than with someone. Not necessarily a bad thing. I enjoy leading ladies who can do multiple spins into them because I appreciate the skill involved (and it looks cool :cool: ). Entirely their choice how many to do though :flower: .

LMC
28th-November-2006, 06:32 PM
If your* partner (whatever gender/role) is stood there like a lemon while you're* "styling" - then you're showing off.

If you* are leading, and "dragging" or "throwing" your* partner through moves that they evidently can't cope with - showing off.

Can't think of any other specific examples, but it's the difference between dancing with your* partner and dancing at them IMO.

* Disclaimer: I have used you/your/you're in general terms, because unlike in French, one sounds like a bit of a tosser when one keeps saying one, doesn't one?

EDIT: Ghost put it better - priorities 1) partner 2) audience - not the reverse :respect:

Lory
28th-November-2006, 06:33 PM
At what point does dancing become showing off?

IMO, It's the point where your own vanity becomes more important than the comfort of partner or where the degree of self importance outweighs consideration on the floor, for that of your fellow dancers. :sick:

Other than that, go for it! I love watching a show off, be it cos their good or really BAAD! :D

Trousers
28th-November-2006, 06:34 PM
It's the moment you realise you like doing it!

Lee Bartholomew
28th-November-2006, 06:37 PM
True trousers.

I know a few really good dancers that would appear to show off at first glance, but in reality, they just dance that way.

Are you a show off if you don't just stick to basics?

Brian Doolan
28th-November-2006, 06:50 PM
I wish I was a good enough dancer to be able to show off !

Minnie M
28th-November-2006, 06:57 PM
It's the moment you realise you like doing it!
:yeah:
So true .......... but then most of us love our dancing so much it comes naturally, and when you know you are dancing well, if gives you a kick knowing people are watching (well it does for me)

tiger
28th-November-2006, 07:39 PM
Brian D, dont worry, none of us are as good as Woodface.:wink:

Lee Bartholomew
28th-November-2006, 07:50 PM
Brian D, dont worry, none of us are as good as Woodface.:wink:

Thanks Tiggs.

Katie
28th-November-2006, 10:09 PM
If your* partner (whatever gender/role) is stood there like a lemon while you're* "styling" - then you're showing off.

If you* are leading, and "dragging" or "throwing" your* partner through moves that they evidently can't cope with - showing off.

Can't think of any other specific examples, but it's the difference between dancing with your* partner and dancing at them IMO.



:yeah:

I was told recently (by a very nice dancer) that I needed to show-off more in a particular dance. I did not like the use of the word show-off, and I reacted by hunching my shoulders, and shaking my head. I asked her what she exactly meant, and basically she said that I should give more attitude in my dancing. This I can work on (well not now as I'm not dancing much these days). With the right funky song, it may well improve my dancing. First of all, I need to think attitude.

Lee Bartholomew
28th-November-2006, 10:12 PM
Think there is a very very fine line between style and showing off.

Personally think everyone should 'show off' just a little. I think it atleast lets your dance partner know you are putting in an effort for the dance :grin:

Double Trouble
28th-November-2006, 10:18 PM
Think there is a very very fine line between style and showing off.

Personally think everyone should 'show off' just a little. I think it atleast lets your dance partner know you are putting in an effort for the dance :grin:

I think it's absolutely fine to show off and express yourself, as long as there is plenty of room. Early on at a venue for example.

If you are just invading other peoples space with no regard for other dancers and no apology if you bump in to them then that is not on.

Lee Bartholomew
28th-November-2006, 10:23 PM
I think it's absolutely fine to show off and express yourself, as long as there is plenty of room. Early on at a venue for example.

If you are just invading other peoples space with no regard for other dancers and no apology if you bump in to them then that is not on.

:yeah: Yep.

Blueshoes
28th-November-2006, 10:32 PM
I like showing my partner off, does that count?

Whitebeard
28th-November-2006, 11:05 PM
I like showing my partner off, does that count?

Oh, what a goody blueshoes ;-) ;-)

Lynn
29th-November-2006, 12:16 AM
IMO, It's the point where your own vanity becomes more important than the comfort of partner or where the degree of self importance outweighs consideration on the floor, for that of your fellow dancers. :sick: That's how I see it - showing off is when your aim is how the dance looks to those around rather than how the dance feels.

Think there is a very very fine line between style and showing off.For some dancers maybe, but certainly not for all.

OK, at times I've asked my b/f 'did that look OK' because I know he will answer me without thinking I'm showing off. I don't want to look daft and I'm conscious that locally at least, being one of the more experienced dancers, others might observe me.

But for me styling is as much about how I feel about the music, how I'm marking a particular instrument etc and I'm most comfortable doing that when there is no-one watching at home in the living room!

I do know that when I dance with a very 'showy' lead my own styling is greatly inhibited.

I guess I'm being selfish, but I rather like a lead who is able to make me look good rather than show off himself.

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 12:45 AM
This all kind of leads on to the question, should a lead dumb down their dancing for a follow if need be?

Lynn
29th-November-2006, 12:55 AM
This all kind of leads on to the question, should a lead dumb down their dancing for a follow if need be?If you're referring to my post - then you have a completely different concept of 'leading' than I have.

And you may not have intended it to be but 'dumb down' sounds rather patronising.

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 12:57 AM
If you're referring to my post - then you have a completely different concept of 'leading' than I have.

And you may not have intended it to be but 'dumb down' sounds rather patronising.

Not refering you your post. Just making the point in general.

Was more of a rhetorical question (think thats spelt right) too.

Lynn
29th-November-2006, 01:00 AM
Not refering you your post. Just making the point in general.

Was more of a rhetorical question (think thats spelt right) too.So what did you mean then? Lead simple moves clearly and well instead of showing off?

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 01:07 AM
:what: OK.

Should a really good lead who executes his / her moves with style grace and precission stop doing so when a less talented follow dances with them who can not cope?

Should he just stick to beginners moves in fear of making the follow look bad or should he still dance the same in the hope that the follow will learn something new?

Does this also work the other way round? with a more 'experianced' follow over lead.

I have a sitting on the fence opinion on this but it has been said before in conversation.

Just interested in others opinions thats all.

MartinHarper
29th-November-2006, 01:23 AM
First off, there's nothing inherently wrong with showing off. It has a long established history in both solo dance and partner dance. It's not going to stop now. Plus, it's fun.

Obviously if you focus too much on showing off then other areas of your dancing will suffer. That's the same problem as focusing too much on any single element of dancing. Moderation in all things. If showing off is making you lose the basics, like lead/follow, or eye contact and smiles, stop showing off.

The big thing to avoid is "outdancing". Don't outdance your partner, don't outdance the venue. It's ok if you do it a bit, but try to avoid it, and certainly don't make a habit out of it.

Outdancing your partner

Outdancing your partner is bad because it risks making her look and feel bad. That doesn't mean you have to dance down to their level, but it's good to avoid dancing significantly above their level. As a sample rule of thumb, if your partner can do a single spin, it's fine for you to do a 1.5 spin, but it risks outdancing if you do a double spin.

The get-out clause for leaders is that if we manage to lead our partners into something amazing, and she recognises that it's amazing and starts feeling that she's amazing, then we can do amazing things too. So try to make your partner look great and feel great first, and then you can show off a bit.

The get-out clause for followers is that you can dance in a way that makes it look like your partner is leading you to do all this amazing stuff, and/or like you find him irresistably physically attractive. That way the leaders get to look great by association (and feel great too), and when you show off it won't look like you're outdancing him.

Outdancing the venue

This only applies if you're the best dancer currently at a venue, or you think you are. It's fine to dance in a way that demonstrates that you're better than everyone else. So, to take spinning as an example, if everyone else can only manage a single spin, and you do a double spin, that's cool.

What's not cool is to dance in a way that demonstrates that you are three times better than everyone else. So if everyone else can only manage a single spin, this is not the place to be trying out triples. MJ is a social dance, and you should be aware of those around you. Be the best dancer, but no better than that.

Corollary: if you are dancing MJ in a room full of non-dancers (eg, at a wedding), stick to the basics. Single spins, beginner moves, simple styling, no drops, no aerials.

----

Finally, if you show off in a way that looks terrible, that's no problem. So it's fine to do 10 spins in a row, provided that you fall over straight afterwards. I've even seen very good dancers deliberately insert elements of slapstick into their dancing, and so "get away with" bare-facedly outdancing everyone else in the room. Not a technique for the dignified.

spindr
29th-November-2006, 01:31 AM
Ideally, you should dance so that you are both dancing at the best level that you can *both* attain.

Any higher and you're probably showing off.
Any lower, and you're not putting in enough effort.

Picking the current favourite example -- fast multiple spins are fine, provided that they don't upset your partner, e.g. they take the same amount of time.

Lots of slow multiple spins are probably not acceptable dancing with a beginner -- they won't know how to cope.

Dancing a lot of slow multiple spins with a more experienced partner is fine -- they should be able to cope and dance on their own for a beat or two -- if they happen to stand there like a lemon waiting for you, then they aren't putting enough effort in to the dance.

Doesn't matter if it's the leader or the follower doing the spinning :)

SpinDr

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 01:33 AM
:rolleyes:
alot of concentration on spins there martin but other than that, well put.

Ghost
29th-November-2006, 01:40 AM
The big thing to avoid is "outdancing". Don't outdance your partner, don't outdance the venue. It's ok if you do it a bit, but try to avoid it, and certainly don't make a habit out of it.
The problem is that "showing off" has both negative and positve conatations. So I agree with what Martin's saying if out-dancing is being used in a negative way and your partner comes away feeling like their presence actually made the dance worse than if you'd been solo :tears:

Having said that, at Jango I'd much rather Amir didn't worry about outdancing the rest of us in the freestyle.

If I'm leading someone who's a better dancer than me, I'd rather they didn't hold back unless it was clearly messing up my lead. If I'm following someone who's a better dancer I'm quite happy for them to do double, triple spins etc to my one. As long as it's still a conversation it's cool.

I guess for me it's like asking a skateboarder, magician, juggler to show you their latest or signature trick. Doesn't bother me at all that I can't rollerblade downstairs, but it's cool seeing it done.

As long as there's still connection, I'm happy.

MartinHarper
29th-November-2006, 01:57 AM
:rolleyes:
alot of concentration on spins there martin but other than that, well put.

Spins make for easy maths. 3 > 2 > 1. :)

Dreadful Scathe
29th-November-2006, 09:29 AM
IMO, It's the point where your own vanity becomes more important than the comfort of partner or where the degree of self importance outweighs consideration on the floor, for that of your fellow dancers. :sick:


:yeah:

but it's also about perception - other people can assume you are showing off if you are just dancing normally, especially if you do anything fancy, and especially if they are non-dancers themselves. I find that as soon as the thought enters my head that people may think I am showing off, I start dancing first moves and hope they look away :)

David Bailey
29th-November-2006, 10:22 AM
This all kind of leads on to the question, should a lead dumb down their dancing for a follow if need be?
Dance is a conversation, you adjust your style to fit the style of the person you are talking to.

So, in your terms, yes. But I'd phrase it as "dancing appropriately", and by my favourite definition (an advanced dancer is someone who dances with everyone, especially beginners), you'll never get to be advanced if you consider it to be dumbing down.

Juju
29th-November-2006, 12:58 PM
Dance is a conversation, you adjust your style to fit the style of the person you are talking to.

So, in your terms, yes. But I'd phrase it as "dancing appropriately", and by my favourite definition (an advanced dancer is someone who dances with everyone, especially beginners), you'll never get to be advanced if you consider it to be dumbing down.

:respect:

Dreadful Scathe
29th-November-2006, 01:22 PM
This all kind of leads on to the question, should a lead dumb down their dancing for a follow if need be?

"dumbing down" thats sounds SOOO egotistical its unbelievable :) I assume you meant the rather less arrogant "adjust" ? :) Everybody changes the way the dance and the moves they do by some degree when dancing with different people or of course to different music - you want to get the most out of the dance and you want to make sure your partner does too. I find the implication that you may consider NOT adjusting to your partner a bit strange to say the least. "They cant handle it, tough, Ill show 'em" :)

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 01:28 PM
"dumbing down" thats sounds SOOO egotistical its unbelievable :) I assume you meant the rather less arrogant "adjust" ? :) Everybody changes the way the dance and the moves they do by some degree when dancing with different people or of course to different music - you want to get the most out of the dance and you want to make sure your partner does too. I find the implication that you may consider NOT adjusting to your partner a bit strange to say the least. "They cant handle it, tough, Ill show 'em" :)


Yep. Note to self, don't write posts in the early hours of the morning.

Was pretty harsh in saying Dumb Down and should have said adjust or refrain or what ever the PC term is for this form, but people know what I mean without nit picking.

Gav
29th-November-2006, 01:36 PM
On Monday I tried a venue I've never been to before with an independant local organiser (probably bigger than the local Ceroc franchise, but that's another story!).
Once I got warmed up and settled in, I was showing off more than I've ever done before.
I'm not an especially confident or flamboyant dancer so maybe there are levels of showing off, but I think that in this case it was the right thing for me to do.
Apart from 3 or 4 exceptions, there wasn't an especially high standard of dancer, probably around the same level as me mostly and not many people were using much in the way of styling at all.

So I camped it up. Used my spare arm more than ever before, snapping my head around at the end of travelling returns, grinning and singing like there was no-one else there.

Certainly created an impression! I did notice a group, which included some of the staff, hiding behind a pillar watching me at one point. I'd like to think that they liked what I was doing, because they weren't rolling around the floor, laughing and clutching their sides!

I didn't stop dancing all night and had a great time.
I'd like to think that the people there saw someone new come along, join in the beginners lesson, dance with everyone in the room and do a few simple little things that they can easily copy and begin to lose their inhibitions.

So maybe sometimes there is a time and place for a little showing off? :blush:

Lynn
29th-November-2006, 01:37 PM
Was pretty harsh in saying Dumb Down and should have said adjust or refrain or what ever the PC term is for this form, but people know what I mean without nit picking.If you are asking 'should you adjust your dancing to suit your partner' it seems a rather obvious question to which the clear and obvious answer is yes. Always.

You're dancing with your partner, not at them,

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 01:44 PM
On Monday I tried a venue I've never been to before with an independant local organiser (probably bigger than the local Ceroc franchise, but that's another story!).
Once I got warmed up and settled in, I was showing off more than I've ever done before.
I'm not an especially confident or flamboyant dancer so maybe there are levels of showing off, but I think that in this case it was the right thing for me to do.
Apart from 3 or 4 exceptions, there wasn't an especially high standard of dancer, probably around the same level as me mostly and not many people were using much in the way of styling at all.

So I camped it up. Used my spare arm more than ever before, snapping my head around at the end of travelling returns, grinning and singing like there was no-one else there.

Certainly created an impression! I did notice a group, which included some of the staff, hiding behind a pillar watching me at one point. I'd like to think that they liked what I was doing, because they weren't rolling around the floor, laughing and clutching their sides!

I didn't stop dancing all night and had a great time.
I'd like to think that the people there saw someone new come along, join in the beginners lesson, dance with everyone in the room and do a few simple little things that they can easily copy and begin to lose their inhibitions.

So maybe sometimes there is a time and place for a little showing off? :blush:

Well done Gav, welcome to my little world.

Showing off is not wrong. It is just a time and a place for it. I won't dance diffrently if I dance will a follow who has a diffrent style, Its hard to adjust over the course of on dance anyhow. If my lead is still done well she would still follow. The showing off part is more about what a spectator would think. What the other dancers one the sides would think.

I personally don't care if they think Im showing off as long as me and my dance partner are enjoying it what should it matter.

I like to try and dance every dance as if it's my last.

What if I danced with someone and we were both showing off, then got asked for a dance by someone who was watching. How would they feel if I didn't put the same amount of effort in?

Nope you don't change your dancing style to suit your partner, you and your partner change your dancing style to suit the music.

Dreadful Scathe
29th-November-2006, 01:47 PM
Was pretty harsh in saying Dumb Down and should have said adjust or refrain or what ever the PC term is for this form, but people know what I mean without nit picking.

... but we all ENJOY nitpicking ;)

Gav
29th-November-2006, 01:52 PM
Well done Gav, welcome to my little world.

Showing off is not wrong. It is just a time and a place for it. I won't dance diffrently if I dance will a follow who has a diffrent style, Its hard to adjust over the course of on dance anyhow. If my lead is still done well she would still follow. The showing off part is more about what a spectator would think. What the other dancers one the sides would think.

I personally don't care if they think Im showing off as long as me and my dance partner are enjoying it what should it matter.

I like to try and dance every dance as if it's my last.

What if I danced with someone and we were both showing off, then got asked for a dance by someone who was watching. How would they feel if I didn't put the same amount of effort in?

Nope you don't change your dancing style to suit your partner, you and your partner change your dancing style to suit the music.

Thanks m8, but just when you think you're getting somewhere...

I DO adjust my style to my partner all the time, because my style doesn't suit everyone I dance with and I don't have the right to give them a bad dance just because I like to dance a certain way.
Like DJ said, it's a conversation. If BOTH parties aren't prepared to listen and compromise it becomes an argument.
My style is smooth, flowing, short stepping (well sliding really) or at least I like to think it is. If a dance with a bouncy, big stepper and stick to my guns it would be awful! I'll allow them to bounce and follow them through their big steps, but I do expect them to adjust their style to suit me too. When this happens, some of the best dances are created.

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 01:57 PM
Yep agreed but it is always nice if you both follow the style of music ie, slow smoth to blusey or tango'y tracks, livley and bouncy to a jive or Rn'R track or, dare I say it, Disco'y do a disco track.

I have danced with partners who will try and stick to a tango feel to something like from 'paris to belin' Im all for wierness and sometimes it works, but should I not dance disco'y to it just because the other person is too stuck in their blues room world?

Then who is showing off? Me because i double step or my partner because she is doing big round rhondas?

Sometimes a mixture of styles works.

Dance partners are like a box of chocolates........

TheTramp
29th-November-2006, 02:01 PM
Dance partners are like a box of chocolates........

It's always the coffee ones left at the bottom?? (Except in my house, where it's the nuts that are left! :rolleyes: )

David Bailey
29th-November-2006, 02:23 PM
My style is smooth, flowing, short stepping (well sliding really) or at least I like to think it is.
Yes, it is, at least from what I recall watching you last Friday.

David the Stalker...

MartinHarper
29th-November-2006, 02:30 PM
"dumbing down" thats sounds SOOO egotistical its unbelievable :) I assume you meant the rather less arrogant "adjust" ? :)

I think the word woodface is looking for is "simplify". It's pretty obvious that all of us should adjust our dancing to match our partners, and I think all of us do. The trickier question is whether, when dancing with relative beginners, we should also simplify our dancing.

I'm reminded at this point of some words I've heard attributed to a forumite. She was talking about how she's been improving her following and styling recently, and she said something along the lines of "I've decided that from now on, it doesn't matter how bad my partner is, I'm going to look good".

Compare and contrast that philosophy with Gav's comment on another thread that "I remember someone saying that men's styling and flashy moves is all well and good, but it doesn't look good when a man out-styles his lady and I have to agree."

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, though I've given my opinion earlier.

Lynn
29th-November-2006, 02:39 PM
Showing off is not wrong. It is just a time and a place for it. No-one said showing off was wrong. In cabarets, performance dance etc its vital. In certain situations for a fun element its entertaining.


The showing off part is more about what a spectator would think. What the other dancers one the sides would think.That's the key question I guess, are you dancing for the benefit of how it looks to those around or how it feels for your partner.

Its OK IMO to dance with an element of 'performance' for those around (I like watching other people dance) but if in a social dance context it should only be done with the knowledge and consent of your partner.

Achaeco
29th-November-2006, 03:50 PM
Yep agreed but it is always nice if you both follow the style of music ie, slow smoth to blusey or tango'y tracks, livley and bouncy to a jive or Rn'R track or, dare I say it, Disco'y do a disco track.

I have danced with partners who will try and stick to a tango feel to something like from 'paris to belin' Im all for wierness and sometimes it works, but should I not dance disco'y to it just because the other person is too stuck in their blues room world?

Then who is showing off? Me because i double step or my partner because she is doing big round rhondas?

Sometimes a mixture of styles works.

Dance partners are like a box of chocolates........


Do you compete??????

I have looked at lots and lots of threads on different forums and when i ask these GREAT dancers who can spin like a tornado and show off all night if they compete i get the same answer........NO. Is this the same with you???
I know, with all good dancers who like to "show off" do "spins", there is nothing more they would like to do than compete - but seldom do. why?

You must always remember, Modern Jive has, is and always will be a partner dance.
Making your partner feel inadequate will soon get round to every venue you would want to visit, and in turn you would find yourself with only a limited few to dance with.

Remenber - evryone starts somewhere.

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 03:54 PM
Competing is my new years resolution.

I have only been dancing a year or so, so im still classed as a newbie .

You can show off and still make your partner feel special?

Achaeco
29th-November-2006, 04:02 PM
Competing is my new years resolution.

I have only been dancing a year or so, so im still classed as a newbie .

You can show off and still make your partner feel special?

Please dont take this the wrong way - but - if you have only been dancing a year, are you good enough to be showing off ???
Surly you have to master moves to be able to show off.
The likes of Victor, Phill, Alex, Roy and other great dancers have earned the right to show off.
Have you come from a dancing background ???

alex
29th-November-2006, 04:07 PM
The likes of Victor, Phill, Alex, Roy and other great dancers have earned the right to show off.please note this is not me :rofl:

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 04:16 PM
Please dont take this the wrong way - but - if you have only been dancing a year, are you good enough to be showing off ???
Surly you have to master moves to be able to show off.
The likes of Victor, Phill, Alex, Roy and other great dancers have earned the right to show off.
Have you come from a dancing background ???

So you can only show off if your a name in the MJ world or have been dancing for along time?

Sorry I didn't realise. Back to plodding, single rotations and static body for me. :rofl:

MartinHarper
29th-November-2006, 04:18 PM
Making your partner feel inadequate will soon get round to every venue you would want to visit, and in turn you would find yourself with only a limited few to dance with.

Odd - that's not something I've ever seen happen. I assume you speak from experience. Who have you seen that happen to? What did they do to make all their partners feel inadequate? How long did it take before everyone started turning them down for dances?

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 04:22 PM
Odd - that's not something I've ever seen happen. I assume you speak from experience. Who have you seen that happen to? What did they do to make all their partners feel inadequate? How long did it take before everyone started turning them down for dances?

Also what did they do all evening if they couldn't dance? :rofl:

Daydreaming Diva
29th-November-2006, 04:25 PM
Have been accused in the past of showing off.

It does make me conscious about my dancing but thats just the way I do it.

Anyone else get accused?

I guess that my take on this would be that dancing, especially jive, is not for the introvert. It is about performing to the music, being creative with the music and sharing a musical experience with a partner. You can't be shy about it, you have to give it some attitude, surely. This might also attract the attention on an on-looker or two, if the dance is going well, but as long as that isn't the overall intention then I don't think this is showing off.

It would never occur to me to think that the first couple to get up on the dance floor on a freestyle night were showing off because there was no-one else dancing. Similarly there have been times when Tessalicious and I have been out shopping for dance shoes or skirts and we spontaneously start dancing in the shop - testing out our proposed new purchase for danceability. Now you might say we are just showing off - that's not why we are doing it, so I really don't care what any body else thinks. We are just passionate about the art and want to see if the skirt twirls nicely. :blush:

So Woodface - don't stop dancing as if you were Fred Astaire - dance as if the whole world was watching and let people say you are showing off if they want to, they are only jealous!! :rofl: :hug: :hug: :hug:

PS - I'm a singer btw and have been known to break into song in all sorts of places, even the supermarket. Now I've had some wonderful comments from people like 'you sound happy', 'you've brightened my day', 'sing up, I like that song' etc. However, there have been folks who have told me to stop showing off - well, I sing because I can't help singing, and so, because you can't please everyone I just have to please myself. If I feel like singing I sing, so there.:blush:

straycat
29th-November-2006, 04:25 PM
Please dont take this the wrong way - but - if you have only been dancing a year, are you good enough to be showing off ???
Surly you have to master moves to be able to show off.
The likes of Victor, Phill, Alex, Roy and other great dancers have earned the right to show off.
Have you come from a dancing background ???

Surely anyone has the right to show off.

The question is: does one have the ability. Thing is - anyone can show off all they like. Unfortunately, many who do fail to realise they don't look half as good as they think.

Of course - someone like Viktor doesn't actually need to show off. He's amazing to watch even if he's just playing it cool and enjoying a minimalistic non-showy dance...


So you can only show off if your a name in the MJ world or have been dancing for along time?

Hardly. But it can make all the difference between looking great, and looking like you're trying too hard....

Just a thought ;)

Lee Bartholomew
29th-November-2006, 04:58 PM
Surely anyone has the right to show off.

The question is: does one have the ability. Thing is - anyone can show off all they like. Unfortunately, many who do fail to realise they don't look half as good as they think.

Of course - someone like Viktor doesn't actually need to show off. He's amazing to watch even if he's just playing it cool and enjoying a minimalistic non-showy dance...



Hardly. But it can make all the difference between looking great, and looking like you're trying too hard....

Just a thought ;)


Would like to see tha amazing Viktor.

I don't try too hard. Don't have the energy ;)

Clueless
29th-November-2006, 05:13 PM
I have been dancing for 8 months now and I ahve only started to ut my own style into my dancing...grnted it is unique but people say it looks good, but I dance to how the music tells me to. but I try and keep the same style with my partner and make sure we look together rather than two individual dancers

Lynn
29th-November-2006, 05:46 PM
I have been dancing for 8 months now and I ahve only started to ut my own style into my dancing...grnted it is unique but people say it looks good, but I dance to how the music tells me to. but I try and keep the same style with my partner and make sure we look together rather than two individual dancersI'm not sure that styling is 'showing off' - if I style I do it for myself and my partner - not really for the people sitting along the side.

I guess that is maybe the difference between styling and showing off? That styling and musical interpretation is done for yourself and your partner and 'performing' (I prefer that term to 'showing off') is done for an audience? (Whether that be an official one or just people standing/sitting around watching.)

mikeyr
29th-November-2006, 06:02 PM
It's always the coffee ones left at the bottom?? (Except in my house, where it's the nuts that are left! :rolleyes: )

That must be why I always get them then:what: :whistle:

I like to show off, but then you all know that anyway:D:flower:

TA Guy
29th-November-2006, 06:52 PM
I don't think there's a problem with showing off. The whole point of dance should be to express yourself (ignoring those who do it to pull or keep fit etc. :)) That kinda indirectly implies an element of showing off even if it's understated. However, it's very possible to be too overstated, then be prepared to be sniggered at :) The art is to show off without looking like your showing off. Things like glancing at the audience to see who's watching every turn are a dead giveaway :)

I also don't think anyone needs to adjust their dance 'downwards' simply because their partner is, say, a beginner. It's not that bad. Of course, you may simplify, sometimes quite a bit, or leave out the triple twist pike aerial or whatever, but you don't need to make yourself look like a beginner just because your partner is :) In fact, if a dancer who happens to be not so experienced as you wants to learn, they may not actually like to much simplification. It's about knowing limitations, theirs, and yours.

I do agree that you should adjust your dance according to your partners style tho. That is one of the marks of a great dancer. Make it complimentary. 'Dance with your partner, not at her' sums it up whoever wrote that :)

Frankie_4711
29th-November-2006, 07:17 PM
I like to show off, as long as I don't feel it's adversely affecting the dance for my partner, although it's not always showing off for showing off's sake ...


It would never occur to me to think that the first couple to get up on the dance floor on a freestyle night were showing off because there was no-one else dancing.

At my local venues, it's not the norm to get up to dance before the Beginners class, but I like to do this to warm up (and just get a couple of extra dances in ... I'm not obsessed really!) and know a couple of partners who don't mind doing this with me, so being the only couple out there I 'feel' like I'm showing off just because I know a lot of people will be watching. Likewise at busks we are there to be looked at, and are obviously trying to dance our best, so I would, in a way, class this as showing off. But again, it's not being done just for the sake of it.

One partner I dance with regularly will specifically take me from one end of the dancefloor to the other because the people at that end haven't seen us do a particular move (for instance). I don't mind doing this at all, because between the two of us we are still enjoying the dance, and we would still be doing the same move even if no-one was watching, but I wouldn't set out intentionally to do that sort of thing myself.

MartinHarper
29th-November-2006, 07:33 PM
Anyone can show off all they like. Unfortunately, many who do fail to realise they don't look half as good as they think.

I dunno. I watch folks who are showing off and not looking too hot (to my taste), and I don't get the feeling that they think they're dance gods. More uninhibited and extrovert. And occasionally somewhat drunk. :)

straycat
29th-November-2006, 07:35 PM
I dunno. I watch folks who are showing off and not looking too hot (to my taste), and I don't get the feeling that they think they're dance gods. More uninhibited and extrovert. And occasionally somewhat drunk. :)

That's pretty well what I meant, yeah. I think I should give up trying to be subtle on here.

Not that I was trying to be subtle, come to think of it.

Or was I?

Hmm.

Dreadful Scathe
30th-November-2006, 10:50 AM
Please dont take this the wrong way - but - if you have only been dancing a year, are you good enough to be showing off ???
Surly you have to master moves to be able to show off.
The likes of Victor, Phill, Alex, Roy and other great dancers have earned the right to show off.

Nonsense, I would imagine they don't consider their dancing "showing off" at all and I've seen many dancers dancing less than a year that are far better than those who have been dancing 5.

I would also say "mastery of moves" has very little to do with ability to dance :)

Lynn
30th-November-2006, 12:20 PM
I do agree that you should adjust your dance according to your partners style tho. That is one of the marks of a great dancer. Make it complimentary. 'Dance with your partner, not at her' sums it up whoever wrote that :)That was me. :grin:

Been thinking about this a bit more.

Dancing with various levels of leads last night, I did adjust how much styling I did - from not too much with a 2 week beginner (well I added in a little latin styling as I know he does salsa) to quite a lot with a well known partner who expects me to - its part of how we dance together. So it was all about the partner, not the audience.

I'm also not sure about this 'dance to the level of the venue'. The level of our venue, especially amongst the men, is still fairly inexperienced. When we do have experienced leads I wouldn't want them to hold back too much as it gives our guys something to aim for and think about ways they could be more creative. I think it would inspire, rather than intimidate them.

Lee Bartholomew
30th-November-2006, 12:32 PM
Been thinking about it quite abit over the last day (although not to the point it's kept me awake)

I think that in the subconciousness somewhere we all adjust our styles etc without really knowing it.

I know that when dancing with beginners, I don't deliberatly 'Tame down' my dancing, but I know Im not going to throw them in to drops or expect them to do seducers, where as a more experianced dancer I might expect seducers and them to be able to pull off abit of styling.

'Dance with your partner, not at her' Is a good way of putting it.

Whilst dancing thouh, I do thinks putting in style etc is complimentry to the person you are dancing with. I don't think anyone would thank a dancer who has just been really stylish with the previous dancer, just to plod.

Also, we all have our own little quirks, habbits and tendancys when dancing that makes us the dancers we are. If everyone had the same style, ability and move knowledge, I wouldn't bother going.

Gadget
30th-November-2006, 02:55 PM
I get 'accused' of showing off quite a bit... normally by the dancers I'm dancing with :sick:

Some of it is showing them off. Some of it is simply dancing to the music. Some of it is because I think whatever is cool :waycool: and I really don't care if anyone else thinks so or not.

I play pool and go for ricochet shots, bounce off cushons, etc. I dance trying to avoid ricochet shots and with little bounce, but it's with the same level of 'showing off': a test of judgement, skill and timeing. Get it right and it's great - get it wrong and you get another go :D brilliant :waycool:

killingtime
30th-November-2006, 06:46 PM
I'm also not sure about this 'dance to the level of the venue'. The level of our venue, especially amongst the men, is still fairly inexperienced. When we do have experienced leads I wouldn't want them to hold back too much as it gives our guys something to aim for and think about ways they could be more creative. I think it would inspire, rather than intimidate them.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I think seeing men who have a lot of style makes me try and put more style in my dance. If everyone is being very introverted and not doing any form of styling then I'd feel a little embarrassed trying to put in more flamboyant style (not really that much though I've never had much in the way of inhibitions).

I tend to find I try things that could be seen as showing off in class. Mostly it's stuff I'm trying to work on (style points, maybe to see if I can syncopate a step). I guess people might see this as showing off rather than using the time productively. Last week we did a sort of first move walk spin thing that I've done before. Since a partner I had is experienced and up for a laugh I thought I'd see if I could do it in double time and put her into 4 spins rather than 2; it was purely out of my own curiosity rather than try and show off.

I guess under definitions discussed before I do show off though. If I can fit a double spin in the same time my partner does one I'll often do it. Humm...

Lee Bartholomew
30th-November-2006, 08:51 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with this. I think seeing men who have a lot of style makes me try and put more style in my dance. If everyone is being very introverted and not doing any form of styling then I'd feel a little embarrassed trying to put in more flamboyant style (not really that much though I've never had much in the way of inhibitions).

I tend to find I try things that could be seen as showing off in class. Mostly it's stuff I'm trying to work on (style points, maybe to see if I can syncopate a step). I guess people might see this as showing off rather than using the time productively. Last week we did a sort of first move walk spin thing that I've done before. Since a partner I had is experienced and up for a laugh I thought I'd see if I could do it in double time and put her into 4 spins rather than 2; it was purely out of my own curiosity rather than try and show off.

I guess under definitions discussed before I do show off though. If I can fit a double spin in the same time my partner does one I'll often do it. Humm...


Talking of puting in multi spins whilst your partner does one I sometimes .... :rofl:

Tessalicious
1st-December-2006, 10:05 AM
This argument is fascinating. You've all picked up on the perceived 'offensive' thing that woodface said without picking up on the bit that is plain wrong.
Should a really good lead who executes his / her moves with style grace and precission stop doing so when a less talented follow dances with them who can not cope? Why should a 'less talented' :rolleyes: follower require you to put less 'style grace and precission' (sic) into your dancing? Precision is absolutely necessary for beginners (I'm going to assume that's what you mean, not just women who aren't very good, but the same applies).

And surely if you're so 'really good' your style can be accommodated into a clear and simple lead - you can't feel that you have to be doing fancy moves before you can style them, I'm certain. As long as it doesn't impact on the quality of your lead, it shouldn't be a problem. I agree with what you said somewhere up there that you should not put less energy into a dance just because your partner is less experienced - so why less style? They might even appreciate or learn from it :shock horror:

As far as the showing off goes, I show off plenty if I'm in the mood, but to my partner primarily - and the level of showing off varies from just throwing in a double-spin (which is quite enough to impress most guys) and some extra spare-arm styling with guys who are obviously not very used to it, because I don't want to throw their lead off, whereas with guys who are putting some style in themselves, I will take my cue on styling and improvisation from them. It's all about 'with the partner' but in a positive way, never a negative (or you shouldn't have danced with them in the first place).

David Bailey
1st-December-2006, 10:24 AM
This argument is fascinating. You've all picked up on the perceived 'offensive' thing that woodface said without picking up on the bit that is plain wrong.
Actually, we covered that when he said something similar a while back about "dumbing down" dancing - I know I did anyway. But probably worth re-emphasizing, yes.

To try to illustrate the point, I spent a while trying to find that classic definition of dancers (the one starting something like "Beginner dancer: dances with beginners" and finishing something like "Advanced dancer: dances with everyone, especially beginners"), but the search engine defeated me. If anyone can dig it up, I'll rep them :flower:

MartinHarper
1st-December-2006, 10:37 AM
Why should a 'less talented' :rolleyes: follower require you to put less 'style grace and precission' (sic) into your dancing?

I think you've answered this question yourself, in part:


the level of showing off varies from just throwing in a double-spin (which is quite enough to impress most guys) and some extra spare-arm styling with guys who are obviously not very used to it, because I don't want to throw their lead off, whereas with guys who are putting some style in themselves, I will take my cue on styling and improvisation from them.

It's the same with leads: we don't want to confuse followers by styling too much when they're not used to it.

TheTramp
1st-December-2006, 10:37 AM
To try to illustrate the point, I spent a while trying to find that classic definition of dancers (the one starting something like "Beginner dancer: dances with beginners" and finishing something like "Advanced dancer: dances with everyone, especially beginners"), but the search engine defeated me. If anyone can dig it up, I'll rep them :flower:

Heh. You're only worth 4 points of rep. It's not worth looking for that! :yum:

Tessalicious
1st-December-2006, 11:02 AM
It's the same with leads: we don't want to confuse followers by styling too much when they're not used to it.But if a lead is as good as woodface says he is, or as good as his hypothetical 'really good lead', surely his lead is clear enough to help a follower through any kind of confusion?

David Bailey
1st-December-2006, 11:03 AM
Heh. You're only worth 4 points of rep. It's not worth looking for that! :yum:
Coo, when did you get to be a sixer? You show-off you :na:

(Still waiting for my other 44 points... :whistle: )

TheTramp
1st-December-2006, 11:14 AM
Coo, when did you get to be a sixer? You show-off you :na:

(Still waiting for my other 44 points... :whistle: )

Yeah. I've got to rep a few more people before I can rep you again. It could take a while getting your 50 points to you! :yum:

Lee Bartholomew
1st-December-2006, 11:27 AM
But if a lead is as good as woodface says he is, or as good as his hypothetical 'really good lead', surely his lead is clear enough to help a follower through any kind of confusion?


It was a hypothetical 'really good lead'. I made the point as a question for descussion.

I personally will put in the same amount of effort with a beginner as I would anyone else I dance with as long as the musics right, I have the strength and im enjoying it.

MartinHarper
1st-December-2006, 11:28 AM
If a lead is as good as woodface says he is, or as good as his hypothetical 'really good lead', surely his lead is clear enough to help a follower through any kind of confusion?

You're a really good follower. Is your follow good enough to help a leader through any kind of confusion?

In any case, many dancers do not enjoy spending an entire dance in a state of confusion. Whether their partner managed to keep the dance on track despite this confusion is immaterial: they don't find it fun. Some confusion is reasonable, but it's important to keep it within limits.

ducasi
1st-December-2006, 06:19 PM
To try to illustrate the point, I spent a while trying to find that classic definition of dancers (the one starting something like "Beginner dancer: dances with beginners" and finishing something like "Advanced dancer: dances with everyone, especially beginners"), but the search engine defeated me. If anyone can dig it up, I'll rep them :flower: Not worth searching for, as it's simply not true.

Beginners should be able to "dance with everyone, especially beginners".

Advanced dancers can match the ability of anyone they are dancing with. But why should they dance especially with beginners?

straycat
1st-December-2006, 06:30 PM
Advanced dancers can match the ability of anyone they are dancing with. But why should they dance especially with beginners?

Maybe he should have said 'enlightened dancers' ;)

MartinHarper
1st-December-2006, 06:47 PM
My recollection is:


Beginner - Knows nothing, dances with anyone.
Intermediate - Knows something, dances with intermediates.
Hotshot - Knows everything, too good to dance with anyone.
Great Dancer - Knows nothing, dances with everyone. Especially beginners.

It's mentioned on this thread:
Where you go , I go (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1378)

Frankie_4711
1st-December-2006, 07:47 PM
I personally will put in the same amount of effort with a beginner as I would anyone else I dance with as long as the musics right, I have the strength and im enjoying it.

That's true - he danced with a friend of mine who was Cerocing for the very first time on Saturday night at Bromley - definitely put in lots of effort! :clap:

Gadget
4th-December-2006, 09:33 AM
Should a really good lead who executes his / her moves with style grace and precission stop doing so when a less talented follow dances with them who can not cope?
I (in part) agree with Tess - if you are dancing with someone, then it's your tallent that should enable you to dance with 'style, grace and precision' without putting your partner into a position where they feel that they can not cope.

If you are "showing off", then you are dancing for yourself. Your partner is just a 'prop' to make you look good and/or display. There is little connection between you other than the physical lead/follow. It may look good, but it's not dancing with your partner, and after all - MJ is a partner dance.