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ducasi
28th-November-2006, 03:00 PM
Martin Harper found a very good article about the differences between following WCS and following Lindy.

Here's an article explaining the difference between WCS and Lindy from a follow perspective: A Follower's Voice – WCS vs. Lindy (http://swing-dancer.com/page.php?31) - by Nicole "mouth" Frydman.

To horribly condense what Nicole is saying, in Lindy Hop the leader follows the music first, and his partner second, while the follower follows her partner first and the music second. Meanwhile in WCS the leader follows his partner first, and the music second, while the follower follows the music first and her partner second.

Anyway, the full article is interesting, and I think relevant to this thread. The article is indeed interesting, in particular the highlighting of the difference between the reputation of hijacking in Lindy and WCS.

In Lindy, hijacking is bad, and is frowned upon, while in WCS is cool and expected.

I'm curious to hear opinions from followers on how they think Modern Jive relates to all this.

(Please read the article before commenting, neither Martin's nor my summaries do it justice. :flower:)

robd
28th-November-2006, 03:29 PM
In Lindy, hijacking is bad, and is frowned upon, while in WCS is cool and expected.



No wonder MsFab LOVES her WCS so much :rolleyes:

MartinHarper
28th-November-2006, 03:47 PM
My feeling is that MJ works the same as Lindy, in that followers style within the space provided by the leader. If anything, Lindy followers are slightly more likely to "colour outside the lines" than MJ followers.

TA Guy
28th-November-2006, 04:56 PM
My feeling is that MJ works the same as Lindy, in that followers style within the space provided by the leader. If anything, Lindy followers are slightly more likely to "colour outside the lines" than MJ followers.

Think that was certainly true up until recently, however, like, I guess, most people, I have noticed a very distinct trend, even in my backwards part of the country, for followers to not only colour outside the lines, but demand the paintbrush and slap it all over.

I've always been aware the sometimes followers like to 'play outside the lines', that was true a decade ago and I remember being in awe of the occasional lady who held the position and did a 'tatiana mollman' or whatever. I never danced with those Goddesses back then, but they existed. The difference now is the numbers are much larger, and the 'playing' (outside the lines) is getting more and more elaborate. It's also much more accepted even if it hasn't hit mainstream Ceroc in the face yet.

As far as I am concerned this is a new skill for me, and I am nowhere near competant at allowing this to happen. Too often I force the lady back into what I consider the rhythm of the dance, too concerned with my own moves. Years of conditioning where it's my job to make the lady look good unfortunately, it's a work in progress :)

You get the right lady, and MJ is just as expressive 'outside the lines' as Lindy or WCS and the follower will paint her own interpretation of the music in a way that in theory WCS just doesn't give you the freedom to do (hamstrung by the triple step and slot, course, good WCS dancers just ignore those when they want to :) and look fabulous), but I guess it's true to say in general, MJ is the least adventurous and followers do more or less stay completely within the frame of the leader regardless of what the music says to them. In that way I would say it resembles Lindy much more than WCS. So yes, after all that rambling, I agree :)

Jamie
29th-November-2006, 03:37 AM
I love my followers to use the music and play... I always encourage any kind of play, including sabotage moves, they're just too fun!

I use my own interpretation of the music when I follow, just a little squeeze on the leaders hand lets them know I'm gonna do something. Usually a body roll or finish a turn off slowly to break on the next beat etc..

It's another reason I love WCS, followers actually have to use the music aswell, not just follow every signal! Wheres the fun in that afterall?

ducasi
29th-November-2006, 01:14 PM
Yeah, I like it when my followers let the music lead them to do something other than what I expected. I like to give my partners plenty of room to do their own thing.

As TA Guy says, (in theory) WCS doesn't allow the same room as MJ, so I prefer to stick mostly with MJ. Maybe once I've been dancing WCS for a few more years my WCS ability will match my MJ ability.

MartinHarper
1st-December-2006, 01:13 AM
It's another reason I love WCS, followers actually have to use the music aswell, not just follow every signal! Wheres the fun in that afterall?

I guess tastes differ. I really like the feel in following MJ of styling within what's left. One of my guilty pleasures is dancing with MJ leads who lead simple stuff and dance through breaks. There's a real challenge in acknowledging the musical changes whilst still following the general shape of the move being lead.

I suspect following WCS would just be overwhelming in comparison.

MartinHarper
18th-September-2007, 12:30 PM
I have noticed a very distinct trend, even in my backwards part of the country, for followers to not only colour outside the lines, but demand the paintbrush and slap it all over.

It's been almost a year since we discussed this last, and West Coast continues to have a strong influence on jivers. Have people noticed this trend continuing? Is Modern Jive now as open to hyperactive followers as West Coast?

Lynn
18th-September-2007, 01:13 PM
One of my guilty pleasures is dancing with MJ leads who lead simple stuff and dance through breaks. There's a real challenge in acknowledging the musical changes whilst still following the general shape of the move being lead.This was something I really struggled with when I first started MJ. I found it hard to follow my partner when the music was saying something else to me. For a while I had to try not to listen to the music. It really helped a lot when I learned that there were things I could do to add styling or footwork to be able to do both.

At the weekend I danced for the first time to a piece of music I know well with a partner I don't remember dancing with before. I couldn't help but take moments where I followed the music - my partner then followed me and I followed him and we followed the music... fabulous.

ducasi
18th-September-2007, 03:24 PM
It's been almost a year since we discussed this last, and West Coast continues to have a strong influence on jivers. Have people noticed this trend continuing? Is Modern Jive now as open to hyperactive followers as West Coast?
Good thread resurrection! :respect:

At Southport I had a few dances with a few followers ('m only talking about MJ here – I only had one WCS dance) who either hijacked or styled so much that I was forced to follow them rather than the music. Any time I saw a break coming up I let them decide how they were going to hit it as they rarely would leave it to me to decide.

While I like a bit of a conversation with my partners, I don't think it should be one-sided in either direction.

TA Guy
18th-September-2007, 07:58 PM
It's been almost a year since we discussed this last, and West Coast continues to have a strong influence on jivers. Have people noticed this trend continuing? Is Modern Jive now as open to hyperactive followers as West Coast?

I can only talk about my local area....
Short answer is 'yes'. Quite a bit.

Unfort, it's a bit more complicated than that :) changes and circumstances down here in the MJ world have mean't a bit of an influx of the type of dancer, male and female, that would encourage that type of dancing.
So difficult to know whether it's just a trend continuing, or due to the changing circumstances. Bit of both I guess.

I actually think there is a bit of a fightback going on :) Usually I watch WCS and just think, that's so cool and inventive.... but sometimes now, just a few times, I've seen local MJ dancing that just makes me think 'wow, that makes even good WCS look so horribly linear and simplistic'. (I'm obviously not talking about the American stars, the likes of J&T here who always look like Dance Gods to me :))

This is mostly MJ youngsters. One or two of the local ones were little more than beginners not so long ago. There's some scarily good kids coming thru with no inhibitions about pushing the limits. Maybe 'they' were just waiting for WCS to tell them there are no limits and you don't have to stick with the churned out vanilla MJ moves or maybe just the fewer older MJ dancers who went that route opened the door. I dunno.
If they stay with MJ tho, I hate to think how good they are going to be in the future. Makes me wanna be twenty-one again :) (Actually, lots of things make me wish I was twenty-one again, it's not that unusual come to think of it :))

robd
18th-September-2007, 09:23 PM
At Southport I had a few dances with a few followers ('m only talking about MJ here – I only had one WCS dance) who either hijacked or styled so much that I was forced to follow them rather than the music. Any time I saw a break coming up I let them decide how they were going to hit it as they rarely would leave it to me to decide.


Well, I'd view hijacking (how many bl**dy women ducked underneath my right arm when dancing WCS this weekend :rolleyes:) and styling as pretty separate entities but I understand your main point. Personally I'm quite happy with the follow taking over at that point - they'll do it much better than I can and the followers who tend to do this in my experience are so much more stylish than I am that the dance as a whole is better because of this.

Robert Cordoba talked in the preamble to their 'he said, she said' session on playing & improvising about the need for leaders to become good followers - not in the sense of being able to follow patterns but in being able to follow their partner's intentions - does she want to play? Is she ready to go? etc. This is probably one of the areas that I feel is strongest in my dancing. Occasionally it's problematic in WCS if I want to lead a variation that requires the follow to do a basic version of a pattern and she chooses to stop/pause mid-pattern and I have to abort my planned variation but I can live with that. In my jive I basically lead some simple stuff and hope for the follow to embellish the dance.

Lory
18th-September-2007, 09:47 PM
While I like a bit of a conversation with my partners, I don't think it should be one-sided in either direction.

I agree. :yeah: There's definitely an optimum balance!;)

But I confess, I find it very hard to stifle my urges :blush: especially when I'm really enjoying myself, into the dance and 'feeling' the music. :D

ducasi
18th-September-2007, 10:10 PM
Well, I'd view hijacking [...] and styling as pretty separate entities but I understand your main point.
When added styling forces a change in my timing and/or what I had planned to do next, I regard it as a hijack – simple examples would be slow turns and rondés.


Personally I'm quite happy with the follow taking over at that point - they'll do it much better than I can and the followers who tend to do this in my experience are so much more stylish than I am that the dance as a whole is better because of this.
Absolutely. I wouldn't try to lead style points, though I hope I am getting better at styling myself and reflecting my partner's style (though many, many women are way more stylish than I could ever hope to be.)


Robert Cordoba talked in the preamble to their 'he said, she said' session on playing & improvising about the need for leaders to become good followers - not in the sense of being able to follow patterns but in being able to follow their partner's intentions - does she want to play? Is she ready to go? etc. This is probably one of the areas that I feel is strongest in my dancing.
Indeed, this is something which Franck teaches a lot on. I don't know how good I am it, but I hope it's better than average as a result.


Occasionally it's problematic in WCS if I want to lead a variation that requires the follow to do a basic version of a pattern and she chooses to stop/pause mid-pattern and I have to abort my planned variation but I can live with that.
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about – I want to lead a nice move, perhaps based on a simple start, but I am thwarted by an intervention by my follower. I can live with it too if the end result is better than I had planned, or even if it isn't if it doesn't happen too often.

When it reaches the stage when I'm having to ignore the music because there's no point in trying to be musical as my partner is going to change everything I do, I do get a little annoyed.


In my jive I basically lead some simple stuff and hope for the follow to embellish the dance.
I pretty much do the same, though I like to think I can some input into the shape and musicality of the dance, otherwise I might as well just be a pole.

robd
18th-September-2007, 10:18 PM
otherwise I might as well just be a pole.

Well, if you were in Heidi's chalet that might not be such a bad thing :wink::innocent:

NZ Monkey
18th-September-2007, 10:40 PM
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about – I want to lead a nice move, perhaps based on a simple start, but I am thwarted by an intervention by my follower. I can live with it too if the end result is better than I had planned, or even if it isn't if it doesn't happen too often.

When it reaches the stage when I'm having to ignore the music because there's no point in trying to be musical as my partner is going to change everything I do, I do get a little annoyed.
:yeah:

I can think of one very experienced lady down here who has a sassy attitude and is very musical. This means that she interprets music well. Unfortunately to "keep it interesting" for herself she does so at virtually every opportunity and usually in exclusion to the interpretation I was trying to lead. In moderation I love that, but I find myself getting annoyed and feeling undervalued when it happens so often.

What really sucks is when you then get told at some later point you need to work on your musicality or your lead by the same person……:mad:

Lory
18th-September-2007, 11:23 PM
What really sucks is when you then get told at some later point you need to work on your musicality or your lead by the same person……:mad:

I've had exactly the same thing happen to me in WCS. :mad:I was told by someone that they didn't like follows who 'play' or do variations that affect the lead. So I aspired to nothing but follow him precisely and as a result, lost all confidence to try ANY variations, incase they went wrong and I cocked the timing up.:sick:

Sometime later I was told by the very same person that my dancing lacks variations! And was informed that all his 'favourite follows' do neat stuff that doesn't affect the lead at all!:sad:

The trouble is.. we (I) have to accept that there's going to be a period when first trying new stuff out, that it probably WILL go wrong :sick: untill muscle memory kicks in and you've nailed it! :clap:

This is my biggest hang-up about WCS :sad:

MartinHarper
19th-September-2007, 01:15 AM
Incidentally, the link at the top of the thread is broken now: here's the new URL:
Swing Dancer Magazine: A Followers Voice (http://swing-dancer.com/page.php?36)


I've had exactly the same thing happen to me in WCS. :mad:I was told by someone that they didn't like follows who 'play' or do variations that affect the lead. ... Sometime later I was told by the very same person ... all his 'favourite follows' do neat stuff that doesn't affect the lead at all!

From what I've heard and read from West Coast instructors, I'd say that this guy just has the wrong idea about the nature of West Coast. West Coast followers are encouraged and occasionally required to do variations that affect the lead. If I'm leading West Coast, I expect my partner to frequently extend and alter my moves. That's her job. It's one of the key factors that makes West Coast easy to lead.


At Southport I had a few dances with a few followers (I'm only talking about MJ here – I only had one WCS dance) who either hijacked or styled so much that I was forced to follow them rather than the music.

One alternative to 'following the follower' is 'hijacking the hijacker'. I get the impression it'd be a faux pas in West Coast, but I think it's allowed in Modern Jive.

Nessiemonster
19th-September-2007, 07:52 AM
One alternative to 'following the follower' is 'hijacking the hijacker'. I get the impression it'd be a faux pas in West Coast, but I think it's allowed in Modern Jive.

Yep, Franck's done that to me on more than one occasion! :flower:

Gadget
19th-September-2007, 12:46 PM
One alternative to 'following the follower' is 'hijacking the hijacker'. I get the impression it'd be a faux pas in West Coast, but I think it's allowed in Modern Jive.There are times when it becomes a game of hijacking the hijacked hijacking that was hijacked and stolen back from the original lead... :confused: At this point you either give up and let them get on with it and follow or have a laugh and keep hi-jacking each other - I've had fab dances doing both, but from the feedback I've been given I think that it's more fun for the follower if you hi-jack back rather than let them do all the work. :cool:

ducasi
19th-September-2007, 01:00 PM
One alternative to 'following the follower' is 'hijacking the hijacker'. I get the impression it'd be a faux pas in West Coast, but I think it's allowed in Modern Jive.
Sure, do it quite often to hijackers who appear experienced enough to be able to cope with it.