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Gus
1st-June-2003, 09:26 PM
What is the purpose of dance competitions? If it is to prove who is the Greatest in the Land .... well the acknowledged ‘best’ dancers rarely (if ever) compete, so that puts paid to that one. As for the effect on the standard club dancer, I have seen couples who used to be nice dancers destroy their style (and tempers) by exclusively practicing with each other. Given that the stated aim of Modern Jive is to ‘freestyle’, the overuse of choreographed mini-routines seems to go directly against this principle.

Other points to pick at? How about;

Egos get inflated and more noticeable
Dancers can win in one tournament, be unplaced in the next
No one sure about what you need to do to score, let alone win
Continual questions about whether the judges have the credential to judge
Endless debate about who should have won
More focus on outfits and flash moves than the ability to actually DANCE!

Does Modern Jive need competitions? Can you ever analyze such an eclectic dance style into a series of definite scores? Do all this hype and shenanigans make us forget what its all about, dancing for fun, for ourselves and our partner?

So .... I would petition that these competitions runs contrary to everything that has made Modern Jive so accessible ..... so why continue with them?:reallymad

Views voiced above are not neccesarily those of the ODA:wink:

TheTramp
1st-June-2003, 10:36 PM
Yes. Modern jive competitions are evil :)

Have to say that I can think of only one good reason for having modern jive competitions, and that's cos they do bring people together.

How many people from all over the country would go to Blackpool if C2D were just having a freestyle night? Similarly, how many of the 1300 people at Hammersmith would have come from all over for just another night of dancing.

I've got to the stage where for me, dance competitions are a bit of fun, nothing to take too seriously, and are a chance to meet all my dance friends who come. The last 3 competitions, (Blackpool, Jive Masters, and Ceroc), I've done with 2 different partners, and have had a total of about 8 nights practice (6 for Blackpool, and then one each for the JM, and Ceroc) for all 3. The next competition I'm entering, I only meet my partner for the first time the day before the competition.

I think that the problem I have with jive competitions, is that everyone dances jive in a different way. My style (if you can call it that), comes from mainly hip hop, salsa, and just playing. Viktor now has a lot of salsa in his jive. N&N are more from the swing end. Dan Baines is very hip hop and lindy, Amir has much more of a tango influence. How then can you compare one to the other, and say that one is better. And no matter how hard they try, I don't see how the judges can't help but subconciously favour someone who dances in a style similar to them. It's really almost like trying to compare apples and pears.

Also, since the competitions (and this isn't a criticism) are a lot more amateur than the big ballroom, and latin competitions, Gus' points
No one sure about what you need to do to score, let alone win
Continual questions about whether the judges have the credential to judge
Endless debate about who should have won
are all very valid.

To be honest, I do wish that there wasn't any jive competitions, but do appreciate the fact that they do bring people together, so will continue to attend them, and since I'm going, will enter. But only for fun.

Steve

Jon
2nd-June-2003, 06:13 PM
Totally agree with everything the Tramp said.

There are so many different styles on the floor how can it possibly be judged. Also for those who enter it would be nice to know what the judges are looking for. And after the comp to see your own results so you know which categories you need to work on.

At the end of the day it's abit of entertainment where you can see some really good dancers performing under one roof. If you enter then just do it for fun.

Mike
2nd-June-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Gus
What is the purpose of dance competitions? If it is to prove who is the Greatest in the Land .... well the acknowledged ?best? dancers rarely (if ever) compete, so that puts paid to that one.

Given that the stated aim of Modern Jive is to ?freestyle?, the overuse of choreographed mini-routines seems to go directly against this principle.

More focus on outfits and flash moves than the ability to actually DANCE!Did you see either round of the Jive Masters or the Open at the Ceroc Comp? I think you may change your mind if you had. The best dancers in the land were involved & provided us with some of the best freestyle I have every seen which oozed musicality.

Gus
2nd-June-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Mike
Did you see either round of the Jive Masters or the Open at the Ceroc Comp? I think you may change your mind if you had. The best dancers in the land were involved & provided us with some of the best freestyle I have every seen which oozed musicality. Urrr;

Mike Allard, Viktor, Lydia, Nigel, Nina, Sue Freeman, Dan Baines, James and Bridget, Amir etc.

Sorry ... but in my books they are the best dancers in the UK .... not sure if they are competing......(IMHO of course :wink: )

DavidB
2nd-June-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Mike
Did you see either round of the Jive Masters or the Open at the Ceroc Comp? I think you may change your mind if you had. The best dancers in the land were involved & provided us with some of the best freestyle I have every seen which oozed musicality. These were some of the comments I heard after one of the Jive Masters heats:

"There are supposed to be over 500 Ceroc moves, but I saw less than 20 there"

"How can you mark musical interpretation when no-one was interpreting the music"

{my favourite!} "I expected them to have choreographed 3 or 4 routines, and then pick the one that suited the music"

I don't agree with these comments, but they illustrate that people have wildly differing ideas about what they expect, and what they thought of the competitors.


Originally posted by Jon / TheTramp
Judging different stylesThe range of different styles is not unique to Modern Jive, but is certainly one of its strengths. It is up to the judges to do 2 things:
- ignore the style and judge the underlying modern jive
- judge the style as part of the musicality.
You should then be able to compare everyone.


I like competitions. I might not like competing any more, but I still like the competitions themselves, and not just because they bring people together. Competitions get dancers to put on a show for their fellow dancers. They get people thinking about how to improve their dancing, or how to present it in a better way. And I can go to a normal freestyle almost every day of the year - competitions make a nice change.

I think complaints about the judging are out of date now. The judging process has improved. You know what they have been told to look for, and how they can award marks. And certainly at Blackpool and London this year, the judges had the dance experience to do their job.

I like the fact that different people win. It is better than the alternative - the same people winning all the time.

Competitions are not perfect. I don't like what you have to do to get your dancing noticed by the judges - ie lots of flashy moves. But the more I think about this, I realise it is very much a personal preference. Maybe modern jive is fundamentally about maximum impact and minimum technique???

David

Gus
2nd-June-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Maybe modern jive is fundamentally about maximum impact and minimum technique???

David


At last ... the Oracle takes on the ODA .... so the fray continues..:devil:

hmmmm .... methinks David's statement is more controversial than anything said by the ODA so far ... and maybe reinforces the ODA's inane ramblings .... have Competitions hijacked what Ceroc is about ..... will form replace substance ... will my worst nightmare come true and the 'move monsters' replace the dancers?

Should Modern Jive descend into becoming a spectator sport or is it still mainly a friendly way of jiggling about to the music without having to try too hard?

DavidB
3rd-June-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Gus
have Competitions hijacked what Ceroc is aboutNo - I think the competitions are helping to define what Modern Jive is about.

Modern Jive is a simplified form of swing dancing. You take away anything that could confuse beginners (eg footwork, how to lead and follow in detail, musical interpretation, etc) and teach the bare minimum that people need to have fun, ie moves. (This is not a complaint - is is why Modern Jive has been so successful!)

People might try to pick up these skills as they gain experience, but they are not a core part of the dance as most people have learned it.

Then you get competitions, which try to say Couple A is better than Couple B. How do you decide?
- on the core ideas of jive - maximum impact & minimum technique (aka as many flash moves as you can)
- quality of individual dancing?
- quality of partner dancing as defined by some other dance style?
- quality of partner dancing as defined by a minority of the better dancers?

I'm starting to think that if you want competitions to be judged on 'musicality' and 'technique', then the teachers/organisations should start teaching it. And not just in the occasional workshop, but as a core part of the dance.

And if the teachers feel that this would alienate a significant number of their dancers, then 'musicality' and 'technique' should not be in the judging criteria.

Will
3rd-June-2003, 12:56 AM
Well first of all, thanks to Gus for starting an interesting thread.

I know that Ceroc were very reticent to start hold competitions initially as they viewed Ceroc as 'Fun' rather than 'competitive'. However, in 1998 they did hold their first champs and the success has been there for all to see. Even now though, they (quite rightly in my opinion) put the emphasis on the Champs of people having fun as the most important thing.

Personally I have to say that I love the Champs for many reasons including a load that DavidB listed. We now have Blackpool to look forward to every year too which is so fantastic. With Bristol also running and Brighton & Ceroc Scotland starting up it seems that competitions are definately on the up as people are voting both with their wallets and their feet.

For me, watching the Open this year was an awesome specticle, particularly with the cream of Australia coming over to do battle with the Brits, (even if they did hammer us! - but hec, I like cricket too)

One small point Gus:- Nigel & Nina did compete at the Champs, albeit in the Team Caberet. Terrific N&N moves in it. - and talking about the cream of the crop, Stevie Wong entered too! (of course he won!)

David Franklin
3rd-June-2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Given that the stated aim of Modern Jive is to freestyle, the overuse of choreographed mini-routines seems to go directly against this principle.

Originally posted by Mike
Did you see either round of the Jive Masters or the Open at the Ceroc Comp? I think you may change your mind if you had. The best dancers in the land were involved & provided us with some of the best freestyle I have every seen which oozed musicality.
I mention no names, but in both heats, there were very definitely some choreographed sequences, especially from people who also perform showcases. Which is not surprising - if you spend ages practicing a sequence so it looks good and you can do it without thinking, why wouldn't you want to use it in freestyle?

Also the judges don't seem to reward musical interpretation enough to make it worth competitors concentrating on that instead of flashy, choreographed moves. I've spoken to several competition winners, and they all say that if you're preparing for a big trick and you realise there's a break coming, you should complete the trick and ignore the break, rather than aborting for something simple that fits the music better.

I'd agree 100% with DavidB that competitions can define the dance. I wasn't at the Ceroc Champs this year, but in previous years it has seemed that what the judges are looking for are speed, sharpness, flash and energy above all else. I think it's no coincidence that I'm seeing the emergence of a "competition Ceroc" dance style which is increasingly far apart from "social dancing".

As an outsider looking at ballroom, there doesn't seem to be any pretence that "competiiton dancing" and "social dancing" are the same thing. I think the same divergence is occuring in Modern Jive - there are a lot more workshops going on than there used to be, and increasingly the competition dancers have a very different approach and even vocabulary to the social dancers.

Now part of Modern Jive's success has been due to its simplicity, certainly. But even more than that, it's that it has made dancing accessible to the masses, in a nice, "safe" environment where people are (hopefully!) friendly and anyone can ask anyone to dance. That anyone can ask anyone, without having to be a fantastic dancer, and without it being seen as a chat-up line, is what makes the Modern Jive scene work, and to me it's the "core" of the dance.

So I'm not sure that I'd agree that "maximum impact" is what Modern Jive is about for most people. Flashy moves are a "hook" that interests people (particularly the men, I suspect), but I wouldn't say they are the "core".

Now how this new emerging dance (call it "Competition Jive") is going to co-exist with Modern Jive is an interesting question. I think increasingly people are going to see them as related but separate - a bit like Lindy and Modern Jive are now. Already most Ceroc competitors don't actually go to Ceroc classes (unless they teach/taxi at them!). The hard part is going to be transitioning from Ceroc to Competition Jive - when often people don't even know there are places to learn outside of Ceroc.

Of course, I keep hearing rumblings that Ceroc is going to start teaching advanced classes...

Dave

Deb
3rd-June-2003, 09:43 AM
Just a quickie because I am about to start teaching....

My initial reaction to the competition vs social dancing question is to say that one type of dancing involves performance and the other doesn't. My background is in dance performance but love social dancing more than anything. It is a completely different feeling as a dancer to perform as it is to get out on the dancefloor for a social dance. I don't think that we should expect them to be the same.

I have a few more thoughts on the topic but I have to run...

Sandy
3rd-June-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Gus
What is the purpose of dance competitions? [/i]

My tuppence worth! I have only been to one competition (Mussleburgh) so no expert obviously but I do think it was amazing to watch all those talented people from all over Scotland and even some from south of the border.

One thing I have heard said quite a few times is that the competitors have not been happy with their performance at the competition mainly due to nerves. I think the big parties, like the Aberdeen beach, are a better way of meeting lots of other dancers from the different areas and is totally stress free.

However, I guess if you have put a lot of effort into a cabaret performance or dual/individual performance it must be such a thrill to be rewarded for it.

I'm not against competition but the attraction to Ceroc was the fact that it was for fun first and foremost. I guess the choice is there for those who want to compete and those who don't can watch or just party.

Sandy:wink:

Mike
3rd-June-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Urrr;

Mike Allard, Viktor, Lydia, Nigel, Nina, Sue Freeman, Dan Baines, James and Bridget, Amir etc.

Sorry ... but in my books they are the best dancers in the UK .... not sure if they are competing......(IMHO of course :wink: )

No need to be sorry, it is a very good choice for a list of favorites.

A more accurate list of the best dancers would also include, Dave & Lilly, C&J, Ben Borrego, Simon Selmon, Nicky Haslem, Roy Agaspa-Power, Deb Woodyard & others. These dancers are also at the top, each bringing unique gifts in the Modern Jive world.

FYI - Dan Banes has competed a number of times & didn’t win, at least at the competitions I attended.
Amir competed with Lilly in the recent Ceroc Open

Mike

TheTramp
3rd-June-2003, 05:05 PM
Sorry. Since you're talking about the best dancers, the least you could do is get their names right.

Mike Ellard
Lily Barker (one 'L')
Roy Asagba-Power

Steve

TheTramp
3rd-June-2003, 05:10 PM
And to throw in some names that I feel have every right to be up there with the others. Would hate to miss any out...

James Geary
Deb Cantoni (& Ben)
Dan Slape
Marilene Metzler
Emma Pettitt

Steve

Mike
3rd-June-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Sorry. Since you're talking about the best dancers, the least you could do is get their names right.

Mike Ellard
Lily Barker (one 'L')
Roy Asagba-Power

Steve

Steve, I am sorry I missed you off my list. You definitely deserve to be there. I thought your dancing with Deb was simply amazing at the Jive Masters.

My list was not meant to be an extensive list of the “best dancers” but rather to say that the previous list was closer to a list of favorites & not a reasonable list of the best dancers.

I will watch my spelling in the future.

Mike

Mike
3rd-June-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
No - I think the competitions are helping to define what Modern Jive is about.

Modern Jive is a simplified form of swing dancing. You take away anything that could confuse beginners (eg footwork, how to lead and follow in detail, musical interpretation, etc) and teach the bare minimum that people need to have fun, ie moves. (This is not a complaint - is is why Modern Jive has been so successful!)

I'm starting to think that if you want competitions to be judged on 'musicality' and 'technique', then the teachers/organisations should start teaching it. And not just in the occasional workshop, but as a core part of the dance.

And if the teachers feel that this would alienate a significant number of their dancers, then 'musicality' and 'technique' should not be in the judging criteria.


If musicality & technique are the only thing that Modern Jive was judged on why not just call it swing!

At the risk of being shot down again, the recent Ceroc Open & Jive Masters was probably the best "mix" of dancing I have seen. The dancers did spend a majority of the time interpreting the music but also including some wonderful moves.

Mike

Gus
3rd-June-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Mike

FYI - Dan Banes has competed a number of times & didn’t win, at least at the competitions I attended.
Amir competed with Lilly in the recent Ceroc Open

Mike

First point, my comments were a direct response to the assertion that ALL the BEST dancers were competing at the Jive Masters ... sorry but with the greatest of respect to the current competitors ... I think there are many missing.

Second, having seen Dan's performnaces and seen him fail to get placed adds even more weight to the argumnet. Dan is one of the finest proponents of nu-Ceroc I've seen ... challenging the boundaries and with a dance perdigree that very few in the field of Modern Jive can compare to. The fact that he doesn't get placed raises serious questions about judging criteria!

bigdjiver
3rd-June-2003, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Sandy
One thing I have heard said quite a few times is that the competitors have not been happy with their performance at the competition mainly due to nerves.

One of my saddest experiences was watching a young lady being overwrought with nerves for the first half of the championship waiting for her round, then distraught for the second half of it because she fell over.

Will
4th-June-2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Sorry. Since you're talking about the best dancers, the least you could do is get their names right.


Lily Barker (one 'L')

Steve

Sorry to be pedantic but I count 2 L's in the name "Lily" :grin:

To answer another point raised. If you only held competitions if all the best dancers entered you never have any comps at all.

I seem to remember that when Torvill & Dean went professional (which disqualified them from competition) they didn't bin Olympic Ice dancing - and quite right too.

I just hope that in 50 years time, when Ceroc is an Olympic sport and the annual champs are covered by the BBC and SKY, they show frequent clips on the telly of people dancing 50 years ago and make us all famous!!! :waycool:

Gadget
4th-June-2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Will
I just hope that in 50 years time, when Ceroc is an Olympic sport and the annual champs are covered by the BBC and SKY, they show frequent clips on the telly of people dancing 50 years ago and make us all famous!!! :waycool:
I'm sure I remember ball-room dancing being on TV {a bit hazy: I was very young ;)} - I don't see why Ceroc (modern jive) shouldn't be - perhaps the competition organisers should approach the BBC or somthing? Or would national TV coverage turn the competitions even more serious and drive people away?

As to the origional point - I think that competitions are vital; they set a challenge and show a standard to attain. However this standard has to be decided for yourself, not by the judges.
Sure, if you want to be placed in competitions, then your dancing could be influenced by the results. But you should be looking for inspiration from all the dancers, not just those that impressed the judges.

The other way to get a high quantity of inspirational dancers is to have partys with invited dancers and show-cases {paid?}
But isn't that where dancers turn 'professional'? So don't they then they need the competitions to get good results, exposure and so more bookings.

Bill
4th-June-2003, 12:05 PM
I have had, and still have very mixed feelings about competitions but I suppose on the whole they can encourage dancers to not just continue but to strive to improve.

I have the same reservations - or some of them as Gus and it's almost fun now disagreeing with the judges but it's clear that some will be influenced by the style they have or prefer just as many of us will prefer dancer A to dancer B because they have a similar style to us - or have one we would like to adopt. Hence my preference for the likes of Viktor and Nigel.


I enjoy watching competitions but it is interesting that some of the 'best' couples didn't dance together at the Open in London. Nina was there but not with Nigel, V & L weren't there; Lily, but not David ( well he was there but he didn't compete). The Open was the only reason I went this year and I really enjoyed it but personally I still don't like competing much myself.

Like Steve I just want to do it for fun but probably not for much longer but in terms of altering a dancer's style that can be a positive or a negative thing. But I don't like the emphasis on 'flashy' moves over style and interpretation and I woudl always hope a good judge can spot a good dancer who didn't feel inclined to have to to 'big moves'.


ps good to have you back Gus :na: :D

Sal
4th-June-2003, 01:12 PM
It seems to me (trying to be casual observer!) that it is the dancers in the advanced category that have a problem with competitions. I think that you all put yourselves under too much pressure and end up not enjoying the event. Those of us who enter for fun, have a ball!

I understand that you have franchises that would benefit from being run by the a competition champion, but surely if the whole point of modern jive is to have fun, it is not that important to the business!

Gus
4th-June-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Sal
It seems to me (trying to be casual observer!) that it is the dancers in the advanced category that have a problem with competitions. I think that you all put yourselves under too much pressure and end up not enjoying the event. Those of us who enter for fun, have a ball!


I concur .... where competitions are for fun, then they are excellent ... but the only one that fits into that category is the Ceroc Scotland one. As for the Intermediate category .... how many times at the majors (Ceroc and Blackpool) have you seen someone competing in the Intermediates who clearly should have been in the advanced? Such poor sportsmanship only serves to strengthen my case:reallymad :reallymad

If you want to see the peak of dance styel AND fun, you should have seen the final of the Ceroc 'Dance with a Stranger in 2001 (I think) where Graham and Roger Chin actually swopped partners (amid Grahams totally OTT dancing) ... it is to my eternal regret that this great 4 minutes of dance was not captured on video.

bigdjiver
5th-June-2003, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Gus
I concur .... where competitions are for fun, then they are excellent ... but the only one that fits into that category is the Ceroc Scotland one. As for the Intermediate category .... how many times at the majors (Ceroc and Blackpool) have you seen someone competing in the Intermediates who clearly should have been in the advanced? Such poor sportsmanship only serves to strengthen my case:reallymad :reallymad

If you want to see the peak of dance styel AND fun, you should have seen the final of the Ceroc 'Dance with a Stranger in 2001 (I think) where Graham and Roger Chin actually swopped partners (amid Grahams totally OTT dancing) ... it is to my eternal regret that this great 4 minutes of dance was not captured on video.

bigdjiver
5th-June-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Gus
As for the Intermediate category .... how many times at the majors (Ceroc and Blackpool) have you seen someone competing in the Intermediates who clearly should have been in the advanced? Such poor sportsmanship only serves to strengthen my case:reallymad :reallymad

If you want to see the peak of dance styel AND fun, you should have seen the final of the Ceroc 'Dance with a Stranger in 2001 (I think) where Graham and Roger Chin actually swopped partners (amid Grahams totally OTT dancing) ... it is to my eternal regret that this great 4 minutes of dance was not captured on video.

I know many dancers who just do not recognise how good they look, or do not want to seem to be big-headed by entering "advanced".

That DWAS was a classic, to me it it waswhat Ceroc is all about, great dancing, but more importantly, great fun. Are you saying that it is not on the comp video? I was hoping to get that video, and the one with the Austin Powers formation routine, if different.

Debster
5th-June-2003, 01:32 AM
Obviously I need to say a few things again because some of you people aren't paying attention... :devil:

Some of us do actually enjoy competing, even in advanced. The nerves are part of the excitement. (Now, bungee jumping on the other hand - I don't understand...)

It is possible to win a freestyle competition without well practised routines. (Just did that...)

It is possible to do well in freestyle without months of freestyle practise with a partner. (Just did that too - naturally can't rely on it ever happening again, but hey)

If you don't like comps - simple - DON'T GO. (There's plenty of non-comp related dancing around) AND don't trash the rest of us who do like it and want to go and play.

Oh I could go on and on but I know that I have already sufficiently chewed on the bait...

p.s. Thanks Mike for the compliments ;) I thought we were interpretting the music too (I find it hard not to, that's the best fun of all)

Divissima
5th-June-2003, 10:11 AM
The delicious Debster wrote:Some of us do actually enjoy competing, even in advanced. The nerves are part of the excitement. Well said, Debster.


Debster tells it like it is:If you don't like comps - simple - DON'T GO. (There's plenty of non-comp related dancing around) AND don't trash the rest of us who do like it and want to go and play. I agree, everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this, but some of us do genuinely love the buzz, whether intermediate, advanced, cabaret or showcase.

Gus opined:As for the Intermediate category .... how many times at the majors (Ceroc and Blackpool) have you seen someone competing in the Intermediates who clearly should have been in the advanced? Such poor sportsmanship only serves to strengthen my case I've said this before, on another thread, so I'll be brief - this attitude really annoys me, as one persons 'clearly should be in advanced' is different from someone else's. I'd say that if a couple is not disqualified on the day for competing intermediate then the judges have acknowledged they are entitled to compete in that category. As far as I'm concerned, the competitions need to define the categories - currently, the winners from previous competitions or the same comp in previous years, are not barred from entering intermediate which does not make much sense to my mind, but there it is. I'd argue it's up to the rule-makers to make it clearer - don't blame the competitors.

SwingSwingSwing
5th-June-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Gus
If you want to see the peak of dance styel AND fun, you should have seen the final of the Ceroc 'Dance with a Stranger in 2001 (I think) where Graham and Roger Chin actually swopped partners (amid Grahams totally OTT dancing) ... it is to my eternal regret that this great 4 minutes of dance was not captured on video.
If it's the one I'm thinking of then it was the Ceroc champs 2000 and Jenny from Dundee was the winning female. (The track might have been Mambo No 5 or La Vida Loca)

And I've seen spectator-shot video of it.

SwingSwingSwing

Dance Demon
5th-June-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Bill


Like Steve I just want to do it for fun but probably not for much longer but in terms of altering a dancer's style that can be a positive or a negative thing. But I don't like the emphasis on 'flashy' moves over style and interpretation and I woudl always hope a good judge can spot a good dancer who didn't feel inclined to have to to 'big moves'.




This probably overlaps the other thread about emotion etc, but have to say that musical interpretation and style will always win it in my book. Flashy moves are fine, done in the right place, and providing they are done in time with, and fit the music. Flashy moves are no different to beginners or intermediate moves if they are not done in the right context. If they are not in time with the music, why have music at all? why not have a competition to see who can do the flashiest moves, without music? Let's not forget that we are talking about DANCE, a physical interpretation about music.:D

spindr
5th-June-2003, 01:01 PM
What's the concensus for what the intermediate / advanced categories *should* be?

* Should previous intermediate winners have to dance in the advanced section?
* Should previous intermediate finalists have to dance in the advanced section?
* Should all teacher's have to dance in the advanced section?
* Should all coaches (taxi dancer's who teach repeat classes) have to dance in the advanced section?
* Should all taxi dancers have to dance in the advanced section?
* How do you deal with "mixed" couples --- when one partner is less experienced / not a teacher?

Maybe the best idea is to base the "intermediate" judging criteria more on musicality and interpretation (maybe even rule out dips and drops) and base the "advanced" judging criteria more on "flashy" moves. At least then it's clearer what the judges expectations are.

Personally, I've never entered any comps. but I've been jiving off/on for about 10 years --- if I was going to enter a competition it'd be at intermediate level --- does that make me unsporting ?

Neil.

Dance Demon
5th-June-2003, 01:49 PM
Well, considering that taxi dancers spend a large part of the night dancing with beginners, doing beginners moves it would be a bit harsh expecting them to dance in the advanced section. Most of the taxi dancers I know(one or two exceptions) are intermediate dancers. If they were advanced dancers, they would either be , or training to be teachers(providing they fit the profile criteria:wink: ) I would think that teachers should be dancing in the advanced section of any comp.

Dreadful Scathe
5th-June-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by spindr

* Should previous intermediate winners have to dance in the advanced section?
* Should previous intermediate finalists have to dance in the advanced section?
* Should all teacher's have to dance in the advanced section?
* Should all coaches (taxi dancer's who teach repeat classes) have to dance in the advanced section?
* Should all taxi dancers have to dance in the advanced section?
* How do you deal with "mixed" couples --- when one partner is less experienced / not a teacher?


right heres the correct answers in order.
Yes.No.Yes.No.No.Shoot one of them.


Originally posted by spindr

Maybe the best idea is to base the "intermediate" judging criteria more on musicality and interpretation (maybe even rule out dips and drops) and base the "advanced" judging criteria more on "flashy" moves. At least then it's clearer what the judges expectations are.


rule out dips and drops? what do you do during breaks in the music then when showing your interpretation, play scrabble ? :)

As for judging, we've already seen it differs between competitions; "flashy" on its own would never be a good judge of a dancer. The organisers will pick judges they trust and the judges will decide what "advanced" dancing is, they won't all be exactly the same in what they look for.



Personally, I've never entered any comps. but I've been jiving off/on for about 10 years --- if I was going to enter a competition it'd be at intermediate level --- does that make me unsporting ?

I imagine most dancers who truly are advanced would be embarrased to go straight into an intermediate even for their first competition, they should dance with their peers, and only they can decide on which catagory the fall into.

Bill
5th-June-2003, 03:35 PM
[. If they are not in time with the music, why have music at all? why not have a competition to see who can do the flashiest moves, without music? Let's not forget that we are talking about DANCE, a physical interpretation about music.:D [/B]


Absolutely agree....................:D :wink:

Bill
5th-June-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Dance Demon
Well, considering that taxi dancers spend a large part of the night dancing with beginners, doing beginners moves it would be a bit harsh expecting them to dance in the advanced section. Most of the taxi dancers I know(one or two exceptions) are intermediate dancers. If they were advanced dancers, they would either be , or training to be teachers(providing they fit the profile criteria:wink: ) I would think that teachers should be dancing in the advanced section of any comp.


Agree again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Few of the taxi dancers I know actually compete and few would be recognised as 'advanced' though several are very good intermediate dancers. Some taxi dancers - especially some women can be asked to taxi pretty soon after they start dancing so unlikely to have all the moves or the experience to dance at that level.

The same applies to demos. I demo with Lorna and occasionally Lisa in Aberdeen and so I'm shown how to do the moves properly but as is clear to everyone :rolleyes: :what: ...they are leading. And it doesn't make me a better dancer. And I forget the moves by the next class anyway :tears: :sick:

But I'm glad some folk enjoy competing and I'll still go along to a few more comps yet but I think the point raised before is that competing can take away the pleasure of just dancing for fun and can force some dancers to adopt a style they think will please the judges rather than please themselves.

spindr
5th-June-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
right heres the correct answers in order.
Yes.No.Yes.No.No.Shoot one of them.


A Sophie Ellis Bexter fan? Murder on the dancefloor?

So if you're a teacher / get paid you need to dance advanced. I can see a sort of pro/am split here?


Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

rule out dips and drops? what do you do during breaks in the music then when showing your interpretation, play scrabble ? :)


Of course, there's all the nice improvisations, stomp offs, etc.
Personally, I like to lead or do multiple spins --- don't get me started on playing statues, sorry I mean doing dips and drops in the breaks. Next time there's a break just have a look round -- it looks quite strange just to see 99% of the floor montionless (I'm sure some people hold their breath :-)


Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

As for judging, we've already seen it differs between competitions; "flashy" on its own would never be a good judge of a dancer. The organisers will pick judges they trust and the judges will decide what "advanced" dancing is, they won't all be exactly the same in what they look for.


Fine.


Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

I imagine most dancers who truly are advanced would be embarrased to go straight into an intermediate even for their first competition, they should dance with their peers, and only they can decide on which catagory the fall into.


The reason for asking was whether it makes a difference how long someone's been dancing -- which category they fit.

Neil.

Dreadful Scathe
5th-June-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by spindr

Of course, there's all the nice improvisations, stomp offs, etc.
Personally, I like to lead or do multiple spins --- don't get me started on playing statues, sorry I mean doing dips and drops in the breaks. Next time there's a break just have a look round -- it looks quite strange just to see 99% of the floor montionless (I'm sure some people hold their breath :-)



:D I agree. Not everyone will do a freeze with a drop/dip, variety makes for a good dance i think - a half speed dip could be fine, or a double time drop even :). I don't think that banning them is needed, in fact i think judges would agree with you and get bored if thats all the couple did. *yawn* a break ..here comes the freeze :)



The reason for asking was whether it makes a difference how long someone's been dancing -- which category they fit.


Nah. Theres many a dancer dancing a year thats better than someone dancing for 5. Time is irrelevant, more time can make people worse in some cases :).

Will
5th-June-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
right heres the correct answers in order.
Yes.No.Yes.No.No.Shoot one of them.


I know it's open to differing opinions, but I'd agree exactly with what DS said. (Except assassinating a member of a mixed ability couple :wink: )

Divissima
5th-June-2003, 04:39 PM
The devilishly handsome Will wrote:I know it's open to differing opinions, but I'd agree exactly with what DS said. (Except assassinating a member of a mixed ability couple ) I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what DS and Will think (which I would probably agree is the most workable suggestion), then there would only have been one question mark over the finalists in the recent Ceroc champs, namely a mixed couple, including, I believe a previous winner in intermediate - just as well the summary execution rule hadn't been adopted for May 4th :wink: .

Will
5th-June-2003, 04:51 PM
I'm sure that the gorgeous Miss Divissima is spot on (boy Toby Wan Kanobe is a lucky man!), - but I can't think for the life of me who said previous intermediate champion / teacher is.

Nevertheless, I think that Ceroc need to hire a set of Gallows for next years Champs - just in case. :wink:

DavidB
5th-June-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Will
Nevertheless, I think that Ceroc need to hire a set of Gallows for next years Champs They could use it for the people who forget parts of their costume as well...

bigdjiver
6th-June-2003, 12:48 AM
If you consider it logically - rate all of the dancers in order of ability, then decide where the dividing line between intermediate and advanced is. The couple just below the line is the intermediate champion.

Look at it this way and beginner and intermediate competitions are really contests to see who can just sneak below the dividing line, and far less about dance.

These have to be fun contests, they just cannot work properly any other way.

Dreadful Scathe
6th-June-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
They could use it for the people who forget parts of their costume as well...

:confused: Dunno what you mean, but i wouldnt have anything bad to say about females forgetting parts of their costume!

All Hail Debster in her tiny shorts :)

Franck
6th-June-2003, 09:57 AM
To bring the thread back on topic :wink: I agree with you Gus, dance competitions are evil! :nice:

While they do provide a showcase for the best (or most exhibitionist) dancers in the world, and allow all of us to have a great day / week-end, they also tend to bring out the worse in some people and can distort the dance in a negative and ultimately self-destructive way.

I am pretty sure that what almost killed Ballroom, from being the Ceroc of its day, when everyone danced, is the strong prevalence of competitions.

As soon as you start setting standards and send a message that this is acceptable and that isn't, then you lose the majority of (potential) dancers, who either can't or won't dance that way...
You turn dancing into a spectator sport. As has been discussed, the skills involved in being a good dancers are very different to the skills involved in winning competitions, and while some people have both, most people have the potential to be good dancers (ie they are great to dance with), but not to show off and win judges...

Having said that, I totally respect that many people enjoy competitions (either to compete or as a show) and would still recommend to everyone to go to all of them, as long as they go with bigdjiver's words of wisdom:
These have to be fun contests, they just cannot work properly any other way.Franck.

Twinkle Toes
6th-June-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Franck

While they do provide a showcase for the best (or most exhibitionist) dancers in the world, and allow all of us to have a great day / week-end, they also tend to bring out the worse in some people and can distort the dance in a negative and ultimately self-destructive way.

As soon as you start setting standards and send a message that this is acceptable and that isn't, then you lose the majority of (potential) dancers, who either can't or won't dance that way...
You turn dancing into a spectator sport. As has been discussed, the skills involved in being a good dancers are very different to the skills involved in winning competitions, and while some people have both, most people have the potential to be good dancers (ie they are great to dance with), but not to show off and win judges...

Having said that, I totally respect that many people enjoy competitions (either to compete or as a show) and would still recommend to everyone to go to all of them, as long as they go with bigdjiver's words of wisdom:
These have to be fun contests, they just cannot work properly any other way. Franck.
Ditto

TT x

PeterL
13th-June-2003, 11:54 AM
I may be not as experienced at competitions, but having been to the Scottish comp last year the strength of it was the fact it was seen as "just for fun". Having agreed or disagreed with the judging the fact the proceeds went to charity and everyone enjoyed it was what counted. Having to go to the expense of getting in experienced judges would
1. cut down the proceeds to charity
2. make it more serious.

A lot of people I ask if they are going say no I'm not good enough and with the scottish comps you can tell them it is more about the dancing and less about the competition.

John S
13th-June-2003, 03:46 PM
Spot on, Peter. It will be a great shame if the vast majority of Scottish (and other) dancers who are never going to be competition winners are put off by the idea that they aren't good enough to even attend never mind compete. Eg, the Lucky Dip is so open that virtually any "intermediate" woman must stand a chance of at least reaching the final if she gets the right guy - don't think it works the other way, though!

And irrespective of the standard/calibre/experience of the judges there will always be disagreements with the marks, because of the subjective element of judging dance. Nothing wrong per se with having non-Ceroc judges, but it is a "Ceroc" competition after all! Anyway, last year the judges weren't all Ceroc teachers as our very own ODA (Gus) was resplendent in his blue-and-white non-Ceroc rugby shirt!

There's no point in the Scottish event trying to be a pale imitation of other competitions, it has to have a USP (Unique Selling Point) of its own - currently it perhaps has 2 (all proceeds to charity, emphasis on fun rather than success at all costs) although the Brighton Stomping event is also charity based - and maybe others.

So please, Scot, if you can achieve the balance you did last year between a professional approach/organisation, and the emphasis on enjoyment/participation of everyone involved, then you won't go far wrong.

Gus
15th-June-2003, 06:14 PM
Having, unintentionally, caused some vociferous debate I thought the time had come to come clean on what I actually thought.

To be honest, have a split heart about competitions.

On the good side, they motivate dancers to improve both their style and repertoire, they are the catalyst for the development of new moves and styles, they bring new dancers to the attention of a greater audience and they make for a great showcase of the better aspects of modern jive.

On the bad side, they emphasis the flashy, selfish dance style, they feed and create egos, dancers focus more on competition ‘style’ than enjoying the dancing and sharing their time with other dancers, the results are always up to question has no one really knows what the criteria to win is, there is still a nagging doubt as to whether the best dancers actually compete....

So ... are they a good thing? On balance .... probably. As someone earlier said, let those who want to compete, compete. However, maybe we should all keep in mind its just for fun and maybe doesn’t mean much......:confused:

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Bill

I enjoy watching competitions but it is interesting that some of the 'best' couples didn't dance together at the Open in London. Nina was there but not with Nigel, V & L weren't there; Lily, but not David ( well he was there but he didn't compete). The Open was the only reason I went this year and I really enjoyed it but personally I still don't like competing much myself.

:na: :D

It's so nice to receive the honourable mention as being the "but not with Nigel". Of course, Nina was dancing with me as Popeye to her Olive Oyl. I really didn't know Nina at all well when I 'phoned her, told her it was Andy McGregor and asked her to be my partner in the Ceroc champs - her initial response was "Andy who?". As soon as I explained I was the hooker in the pink wig at Blackpool with the Rugby playing Steve Lampert and Rob Coward she didn't hesitate in saying "OK, it'll be a laugh". And we did have such a laugh (although it was difficult to laugh too much with a pretend pipe in your mouth!!!). We didn't enter to win, which was obvious, we were even quite surprised to get through the first round. But we had a great time and I found something I do better than Nigel who said "I've never seen Nina laugh so much".

To me what dancing competitions are about is entertainment - your own or other people's. And in my opinion modern jive competitions are about who can be the most enteraining. The audience see a show and are entertained and the performers have a great time doing it. To paraphrase a verse from a song in All That Jazz;

The audience loves us
And we love them
And they love us for loving them
And we all love each other

The only problem I've got now is the acceptance that I'm never going to win - if I couldn't win with Nina...:sad:

Mary
19th-June-2003, 12:34 AM
Diverging a little from the original debate, I have to reply to Andy's comments. I thoroughly enjoyed yours and Nina's performance at the Champs, and felt the judges missed a lot of the subtle nuances of your dancing. I found it thoroughly entertaining whilst having quite lyrical moments - is this sounding yeuchy? - and all this in a freestle arena!!!

On the few occasions I have danced with you Andy it has always been THE most fun and enjoyable experience. However, dance competitions is a love/hate thing. Personally I feel it has improved my dancing no end - I like to have something to aspire to, and to be inspired.

Will greater emphasis on competitions kill the social dance arena? I don't think so just yet. There are many people who are happy with the level they are at and dance purely for social reasons. The downside of competitions is that some people feel alienated because they become too shy/nervous to ask a "competition" dancer for a dance. Personally the buzz I get which beats doing any competitions, is the unexpected "connection" you sometimes get when you dance with someone you have never met before!

Anyway, that's my late night, rambling, twopennyworth.

See you all on the dancefloor. Night, night.y

PeterL
19th-June-2003, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
But we had a great time and I found something I do better than Nigel who said "I've never seen Nina laugh so much".


~snip~

The only problem I've got now is the acceptance that I'm never going to win - if I couldn't win with Nina...:sad:

From what you just said I would say you did win and I wasn't there. But it depends on your definition of winning.
:cheers:

Andy McGregor
19th-June-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Mary


On the few occasions I have danced with you Andy it has always been THE most fun and enjoyable experience.

Personally the buzz I get which beats doing any competitions, is the unexpected "connection" you sometimes get when you dance with someone you have never met before!



Mary, I love you. It's so nice to be appreciated for my art form - and it's so easy to achieve, I just miss a dose of my medication... ..and go dancing! (please, don't tell my Psychiatrist).

You get that 'connection' too? The one where it's just you, your partner and the music? The one that seems to last for ever, but be over in a moment? I always feel so awkward at the end. What should you do? There's that time just after the music stops when you come back to earth, look at each other and realise you've shared something quite heavenly and intimate. And then reality comes crashing in. You realise this person that you've just shared something special with is a total stranger, you don't know them at all, you feel guilty because you might have led them on, your wife might spot you, you don't know what to say and you're so deeply moved you might not be able to speak if you tried anyway - and then you realise you're STILL HOLDING THEIR HAND!

Where was I? Oh yes, competitions. I think that for most social dancers competitions currently make no difference at all. There must be at least 300 modern jive classes with an average of 100 people a night. That's a guestimated 30,000 people a week. Just over 1,000 of us go to competitions, less than 4% of people dancing each week. Let's not fool ourselves, some of us guys are competitive. And now that women are the new men they want to be out there competing with us.

The only thing that worries me about competitions is the judging. How come almost everyone who got a medal at the Ceroc champs was young and good looking? We know a young pretty couple are more eye-catching than a less attractive couple who maybe dance better. But who should get the prize in a DANCE contest? I wonder if Christopher Dean would have done so well with Jayne Torville if she'd looked like me? I suppose it depends on the judges and how they're briefed.

Which brings me onto a subject I've done something about rather than just moaning. I've been thinking about the briefing of judges and the judging method for many months now and have come up with a new judging method for modern jive based on methods used in other forms of dance including ice dance. I think it addresses many of the issues raised in this thread. It's been written with our October 12th Brighton competition in mind but could be used for any modern jive contest. I've attached this method here and would welcome critical feedback to me on andy@britroc.com - please be nice, it's taken me ages!

Gus
19th-June-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I've been thinking about the briefing of judges and the judging method for many months now and have come up with a new judging method for modern jive based on methods used in other forms of dance including ice dance....... I've attached this method here ....

Ahem .... forgive my curiosity ... but your rules don't appear to be attached?

Also, back to ODA mode, going to share with us all the Judges for the competition?:wink:

Andy McGregor
20th-June-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Ahem .... forgive my curiosity ... but your rules don't appear to be attached?

Also, back to ODA mode, going to share with us all the Judges for the competition?:wink:

I did try to attach the Judging Method. I noticed the document wasn't attached but as a junior member of the Forum I guessed it must need to be approved by the ODA before appearing on the site. Now that I've read the list of valid file extensions I've reasised that .doc isn't one of them :sorry: I've zipped the Word file, hopefully it will work now.

On the subject of judges we have my new mate Nina (aka Olive Oyl) as the Chief Judge as she is very experienced, a professional dancer, quite scary but nice with it and completely unbribeable, even with chocolate - I know, I've tried, she'll eat as much chocolate as you're prepared to give, but it will make absolutely no difference to her judging - or her waist measurement!

The other judges are Nigel Anderson (girls, you can attempt to influence his judgement - he likes a 'nicely turned ankle' whatever that means ;) ), Jackie Robins, Mark Wilson, Clayton Tubbs and two others who have still to finally make their minds up about their availability. Judges are Graham's department, I'll let you know when I do.

One of the things we wanted was a mix of modern jive styles so I particularly wanted Mark and Jackie as they are regular winning competitors and have a completely different style to Nigel and Nina - who are both there because they are good and also the most experienced judges we've got in the UK. And Clayton, well he's a star, obviously. Also, the bonus is that if he's judging he won't be competing - which means that someone else can win for once!

Additionally, we're paying to have Professional Scrutineer called Jane Tomblin from the world of Ice Dance and Ballroom to make sure everything is done properly and turn the raw scores into something meaningful. She is very scary too and has been a great help finalising the judging method.

Dreadful Scathe
20th-June-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor

The other judges are Nigel Anderson (girls, you can attempt to influence his judgement - he likes a 'nicely turned ankle' whatever that means ;)

Ive got a nicely turned ankle, turned it playing football last week - still badly bruised too. Interferes with the dancing y'know. :)

Andy McGregor
20th-June-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Ive got a nicely turned ankle, turned it playing football last week - still badly bruised too. Interferes with the dancing y'know. :)

Football, is that the game where the ball is round and you can't pick it up and run with it? :wink: I've heard it's mostly played by soft boys - Nigel might be interested... :devil:

Dreadful Scathe
20th-June-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Football, is that the game where the ball is round and you can't pick it up and run with it? :wink: I've heard it's mostly played by soft boys - Nigel might be interested... :devil:

i pick it up and run home with it when my teams getting beat...after all its my ball and ill go home and tell my mum. But hang on, are you being insulting ? i challange you to a dance next time i see you - i know who YOU are ;)

Lou
20th-June-2003, 10:56 AM
A lot of thought has obviously gone into your document, Andy. Thanks for posting it - it's great to find people who are totally open about what they're looking for in terms of judging, and it can only be to the benefit of competitors.

I particularly liked the last sentence in section 1.1 that ended:


and to the John Eastman of the Leroc Federation for input into the final version of this 'Method' like as if there's more than one of him! :devil: :wink: :grin: (scary thought!)

Andy McGregor
20th-June-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
i pick it up and run home with it when my teams getting beat...after all its my ball and ill go home and tell my mum. But hang on, are you being insulting ? i challange you to a dance next time i see you - i know who YOU are ;)

Do you want to be the girl or the boy? I have the equipment and skills for either role :wink:

CJ
20th-June-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Do you want to be the girl or the boy? I have the equipment and skills for either role :wink:

I'll have you know this is a very, VERY PC forum, eh, John!!

We'll have none of that nonsense here, you know.

Would you like DS to be follower or leader!?!!?!?:wink:

Andy McGregor
20th-June-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
I'll have you know this is a very, VERY PC forum, eh, John!!

We'll have none of that nonsense here, you know.

Would you like DS to be follower or leader!?!!?!?:wink:

I think you'll find you can view this forum on a Mac as well as a PC:rolleyes:

OK, I'll be the follower. But no washing machines - the last time I had one of those done to me I got chinned in a very delicate place :tears:

Dreadful Scathe
20th-June-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Do you want to be the girl or the boy? I have the equipment and skills for either role


It dosnt bother me much, Im as bad at following as I am at leading at the moment - out of practice. Extensive retraining over next few months though :). However, if being a girl requires wearing a tutu and suspenders, Im not sure I can do it justice - maybe you have to try these things at least once though ? :)

Andy McGregor
20th-June-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
However, if being a girl requires wearing a tutu and suspenders, Im not sure I can do it justice - maybe you have to try these things at least once though ? :)

Dont do it! That's how you get caught. You think 'I'll just try it the once'. And then it's too late and you just can't stop :(

Of course, one of the reasons to wear suspenders is that they're so much easier to dance in than tights - which squash your parts and are really clammy:what: And the girls love a man in suspenders and fishnets - well that's my, as yet unproven, theory.

Are we getting off the thread. I don't think so. The is more proof that competitions are evil - they turn us into exhibitionist cross-dressers and make other guys think about trying it. The only way I could quit was to organise my own competition so I couldn't enter - but hang on, didn't Sherif enter his own Bristol comp one year? I'd better get those suspenders washed, ironed and perfumed :eek: On second thoughts, I think I'll leave the cross dressing arena clear for the bi-curious DS to sashay into.

And we'd all find out who DS was. His cover, and possibly other things, would be well and truly blown!

Dreadful Scathe
20th-June-2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think I'll leave the cross dressing arena clear for the bi-curious DS to sashay into.

sashay ? hmm according to
this definition (http://www.yahooligans.com/search/ligans_nt?lb=e&p=num%3AS1321700) that could be more extroverted than i think i could get away with :)

Andy McGregor
20th-June-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
sashay ? hmm according to
this definition (http://www.yahooligans.com/search/ligans_nt?lb=e&p=num%3AS1321700) that could be more extroverted than i think i could get away with :)

Down here near Brighton the word 'sashay' is best associated with 'flounce' and 'peacock'.

You're still considering the cross-dressing. Go on, admit it :innocent:

John S
20th-June-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
sashay ? hmm according to
this definition (http://www.yahooligans.com/search/ligans_nt?lb=e&p=num%3AS1321700) that could be more extroverted than i think i could get away with :)


Originally quoted by Roget's Thesaurus
sashay
VERB: Informal. To walk with exaggerated or unnatural motions expressive of self-importance or self-display:
Oh I dunno, it's never seemed to stop you yet!
:cheers:

Dreadful Scathe
22nd-June-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor

You're still considering the cross-dressing. Go on, admit it :innocent:


considering ? tsk im wearing a dress now :)

Andy McGregor
22nd-June-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
considering ? tsk im wearing a dress now :)

When The Tramp told me about this forum he said you had to log on naked. It's been quite embarassing in our chilly office. Was he lying?:confused:

Dance Demon
22nd-June-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
considering ? tsk im wearing a dress now :)

Bet it's one of those slinky off the shoulder numbers too,.......
in a nice smurfy blue colour:wink:

Minnie M
28th-January-2005, 02:06 AM
With Blackpool in 4 weeks time I thought I would bring this thread back to life - 18 months on and things don't seem to have changed much :really:

Andy McGregor
28th-January-2005, 12:01 PM
With Blackpool in 4 weeks time I thought I would bring this thread back to life - 18 months on and things don't seem to have changed much :really:
What do you mean "no change". I'm logging in wearing flip-flops :wink:

Four weeks!!!! :eek:

Nearly time to think about thinking about getting a partner, maybe ...

.. and then there's writing my script about not having practiced :wink:

AND the very serious work of shopping for my outfits, etc :clap:

I think it's probably time for a few pairs of
NEW SHOES!!

Andy McGregor
28th-January-2005, 12:03 PM
NEW SHOES!!
How could anything that requires shopping for new shoes be evil? :confused:

Minnie M
28th-January-2005, 12:56 PM
How could anything that requires shopping for new shoes be evil? :confused:

All depends on the size of the heels :whistle:

Bill
28th-January-2005, 05:36 PM
Four weeks!!!! :eek:

Nearly time to think about thinking about getting a partner, maybe ...

.. and then there's writing my script about not having practiced :wink:




In that case I'd better get mine prepred as well :rolleyes: .... meeting at the weekend to chat about moves we might be able to do if we can find times when we might be able to get together to practice :whistle: :sick:

It is meant to be a laugh isn't it :confused:

Andy McGregor
28th-January-2005, 06:36 PM
It is meant to be a laugh isn't it :confused:

I've never been under any other impression :waycool:

TonyC2D
28th-January-2005, 09:50 PM
I love dance competitions and don't think them at all evil, looking forward to seeing all of you in Blackpool,

4 WEEKS aaaaaaaaarrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh
Andy you think you have problems!!!!!!!!


The C2d Team

Mary
28th-January-2005, 10:10 PM
I love dance competitions and don't think them at all evil, looking forward to seeing all of you in Blackpool,

4 WEEKS aaaaaaaaarrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh
Andy you think you have problems!!!!!!!!


The C2d Team

FANTASTIC!!! :wink: :D :D :D

:flower:
:blush:
M

TheTramp
29th-January-2005, 12:10 AM
In that case I'd better get mine prepred as well :rolleyes: .... meeting at the weekend to chat about moves we might be able to do if we can find times when we might be able to get together to practice :whistle: :sick:

It is meant to be a laugh isn't it :confused:
Sorry Bill. You can't use excuses any more. You're dancing with someone that you've been dancing with for years, and who you demo for 2 times a week on a regular basis.

Most people competing (who aren't actually living together) would die for that much opportunity. I know I would have...

Ghost
7th-November-2005, 10:28 PM
Ok, given that it is an interesting discussion, here's the original thread for y'all to continue with

Take care,
Christopher

Will
8th-November-2005, 01:01 PM
The Tramp still has nearly 2000 more posts than anyone else even though he's been a "Read Only" member for some months now!

David Bailey
8th-November-2005, 01:13 PM
The Tramp still has nearly 2000 more posts than anyone else even though he's been a "Read Only" member for some months now!
I know, it's just so unfair, there should be a law or something...

JamesGeary
8th-November-2005, 02:15 PM
Dan is one of the finest proponents of nu-Ceroc I've seen ... challenging the boundaries and with a dance perdigree that very few in the field of Modern Jive can compare to. The fact that he doesn't get placed raises serious questions about judging criteria!
Exceptional dance talent and ability with choreographed sequences. But not really into freestyle modern jive enough to get exceptional at freestyle modern jive.

Gus
8th-November-2005, 02:31 PM
Exceptional dance talent and ability with choreographed sequences. But not really into freestyle modern jive enough to get exceptional at freestyle modern jive.Agree ... my comments were mostly based on his perfomance 2002 - 2002. Still, a sad loss to the MJ world.

Andy McGregor
8th-November-2005, 07:21 PM
The Tramp still has nearly 2000 more posts than anyone else even though he's been a "Read Only" member for some months now!
I think the Tramp likes it when Will talks about his 'member' :devil: