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Gadget
25th-May-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Fran
with the pacientice of a saint as well!
Sorry Fran {:sorry}, but it may be the one and only time I get to do this:

patience

:D

bigdjiver
25th-May-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Fran
simply fabby!!:nice:
with the pacientice of a saint as well!

fran:nice:

ps. sorry all you spellers i know its wrong but i cant figure it out. :tears: and ive given up trying.. Frank is there a spell check on this forum to click on?:confused:

Sorry, but either he cannot spell either, or its Franck.

This forum is for swapping thoughts, not showing off spelling ability, or as I would put it, conformity. As far as I am concerned it is our ancestors that could not spell, and conformity that keeps it that way.

Slaughter, laughter, daughter, dafter. It does not make sense.

Dreadful Scathe
26th-May-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
Right, let's get away from spelling debates (mine are all typos, BTW, not poor spelling... :wink: ) and get back on topic...

As we don't forget that spelling is important in communication, especially in this modern day luk i dnt knw how 2 spll prprly era of txt's :).


So the general feeling is that it's emotion that we look for in a dance. It's interesting that this is also true for when we're watching a dance.

I don't really agree with this. Watching the passion of top class tango, salsa or even ballet is always memorable and emotion and passion are always present in the great performances. I would argue that we rarely see this in jive at all, in fact even the Advanced comp contestants would be better described as 'clinical' with only a few exceptions. I'm not saying thats bad, perfectly executed dancing is impressive in its own right. From what others have said about the Ceroc champs the judges seem to rate emotion/passion far less than the judges in Blackpool at Chance 2 Dance. Theres certainly not many couples that can do both.




For example... I think most people have seen Schindler's List. It's a very powerful film and we certainly get an impression of the emotions felt by the characters. But would our appreciation of the film be different if we didn't know anything about the holocaust? I think that knowing some of the history about the era, beyond what's portrayed in the film, only intensifies how I feel when I see it.

Equally, there'll be nazis out there that don't find it moving at all. Prior knowledge can produce all sorts of reactions. I've noticed that some people tend to have troube with films if they are NOT based on the persons prior knowldge i.e. a sci-fi film that depicts genocide not having any impact because the people are wearing futuristic funny clothes in it. I guess some peoples ability to remove themselves from reality is diffrent from others - as a spectator of dance that would alter how much you enjoy things too. I don't think this applys to dance as much though...a style of dance is given life by the dancers and they are only as good as their current performance - from a spectators point of view.

er..did that make any sense :)

Fran
26th-May-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Sorry Fran {:sorry}, but it may be the one and only time I get to do this:

patience

:D


thankyou gadget -:nice: it certainly wont be the last time - my pupils correct my spelling. I pretty up front about being dyslexic. Mine aren't typos.

Any way we seem to have had our knuckle rapped for going slightly of topic - does that mean it will happen on every thread when we divert a little? :what:

now where were we........

fran

Jayne
26th-May-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Fran
Any way we seem to have had our knuckle rapped for going slightly of topic

You should have been in the cabaret team Fran... :tears:

J :wink:

Fran
26th-May-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
You should have been in the cabaret team Fran... :tears:

J :wink:

with the risk of going off thread again, :wink: probebly just as well I was'nt in your team caberet- No woman "rapps" my knuckles.

Anyway done my bit of team caberet last year in London and we all had a great time - no cross words. but maybe we were just lucky.:innocent:

fran

Fran
26th-May-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
I cut short my standard sermon against rigid spelling - The paragraph about dyslexics and English as an additional language as valuable contributors is usually next. Another para says text message Engish is evolution at work. [/B]

have you ever read any of Thomas G West's books bigdiver?

"In the Minds eye is quite insiprational".


getting back to the dance history question.

I was always under the impression that jive came about because of people desire to have fun on the dance floor - probebly really taking root in trying to get away from the difficulties of the 2nd world war. if the history is steepted in fun - we probebly all acheive it. Do we need to analise it so much???

Perhaps in years to come people may start to analisle Blues and wonder where that came from and why . There is definatley emotion in Blues :devil:

. At the moment I simply dance because I love it. It makes me feel happy and helps me forget things. I have met some fantastic people and am very lucky to have such a fabby partner/dance partner. Having a conection with your dance partner - who ever they are, even if its the first time you have danced with them is so much more rewarding and enjoyable than dancing withsome one who is simply technically correct but has no soul in their dance. They are also not so enjoyable to watch.

fran

:nice:

Gadget
27th-May-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
I cut short my standard sermon against rigid spelling - The paragraph about dyslexics and English as an additional language as valuable contributors is usually next.
I am slightly aflicted myself {I transpose numbers a lot and can't spell (if you hadn't noticed)} :dyslexia is not an excuse - just a fact. It's not how you spell, but what you are trying to spell that's important {otherwise I would never have got such a high result in Higher English!}
Actually, I think I know more people who are dyslexic than are not - must be the more intelligent, creative types. :wink:

Another para says text message Engish is evolution at work.
:what: :what: That's regression, not evolution! Next you'll be saying that we all should adopt the american phonetic way of spelling! {"Aye, fit like min?"}

I treat dance as separate from the real world, a form of acting.
... all the world is but a stage...
Will someone tell me where the real world begins? Is that the bit that interrupts the dancing ? :D :waycool:

bigdjiver
28th-May-2003, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
Actually, I think I know more people who are dyslexic than are not - must be the more intelligent, creative types. :wink:


One theory is that dyslexia can be due to the two halves of the brain being in contention. That is to say that dyslexics are trying to use their whole brain rather than just the dominant half, and the right side of the brain is more responsible for creativity. Certainly most dyslexics I know are way above average IQ and very creative.

Dreadful Scathe
28th-May-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
One theory is that dyslexia can be due to the two halves of the brain being in contention. That is to say that dyslexics are trying to use their whole brain rather than just the dominant half, and the right side of the brain is more responsible for creativity. Certainly most dyslexics I know are way above average IQ and very creative.

So why is dyslexia so difficult to spell ? groan :)

Seriously though, its not dyslexics that are the problem, its the limitations of the English language. Character based languages (japanese,chinese etc..) and phonetic based languages (arabic) dont have the same problems. You can also consider that only a few hundred years ago the majority probably couldnt write anyway and that a mere few decades ago dyslexics were 'difficult children who just wont try at school' :)
We learn slowly as a race it seems.




Dyslexics of the world Untie!!

John S
28th-May-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
a mere few decades ago dyslexics were 'difficult children who just wont try at school'

Absolutely - there was a girl in my primary class (yes, a mere few decades ago!!) who was taken out to the front nearly every week and given the belt on her hands for her inability to spell. It was only many years later when dyslexia became more widely recognised that I remembered her, and realised what the problem probably was.

It's sad now to think what damage it all must have done to that girl's personality and self-esteem, but I suppose at the time the teacher thought that the punishment was actually in the girl's best interests - so maybe it's a warning for us all not to be so sure of the rightness of our actions - by tomorrow, today's certainties may be yesterday's fallacies!

PeterL
28th-May-2003, 02:57 PM
people should also be aware that dyslexia although the most fashionable unseen handicap, is not the only handicap that oes unseen.

There are many others
Aspraxia
Developmental Dyspraxia
Developmental Verbal Dyspraxia
to name a few.

These can result in many symptoms ranging from clumsiness, through to tactile defensiveness and social inability.

From my experience the way these are treated through "coping mechanisms" only causes problems in the long run.

There is a fine line between realising why you can't do things as easily as other people and treating it as an excuse to fail.

There is nothing that somebody with a developmental disorder cannot achieve, just takes more perseverance and practice.

The lessons learnt from treating dyslexia are not as transferable to other disorders as they may at first seem.

These disorders should also not be seen as disabilities especially by the sufferer as they often end up better at things that they find difficult than an "normal" person, due to the fact that it took them longer to get there.

Dreadful Scathe
28th-May-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
These disorders should also not be seen as disabilities especially by the sufferer as they often end up better at things that they find difficult than an "normal" person, due to the fact that it took them longer to get there.

Aaah Political Correctness. Saying someone has a disability is seen as a bad thing because of how the word has been used in the past and the connotations (sp?) . Of course dyslexia is a disability - its not normal as a minority are 'afflicted' with it. But then for 'normal' read 'average' and you begin to see how boring normal is :). Society tells us that people have disabilities - dont listen to society!!!

Personally Im useless at tennis which would be a disability on a tennis court and Dyslexia is a disability in the real world of professional letter writing as people expect perfect spelling of English .....but thats what spell checkers are for, or you can write in Japanese and not be affected by dyslexia at all :). But Im not argung with PeterL, its certainly not a disability in the modern sense of the word :).

did i make a point ? i think i lost it :)

PeterL
28th-May-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Aaah Political Correctness. Saying someone has a disability is seen as a bad thing because of how the word has been used in the past and the connotations (sp?) . Of course dyslexia is a disability - its not normal as a minority are 'afflicted' with it. But then for 'normal' read 'average' and you begin to see how boring normal is :). Society tells us that people have disabilities - dont listen to society!!!


I don't think you were getting my point.

The disorders I mentioned are developmental and I have seen many articles refering to ways of dealing with them through coping mechanisms.
Even to the point of not driving, not riding a bike etc.

I remember once being at my doctors and him asking me what I did.
I told him I was a croupier and his response was "no you are not".

The problem I am refering to is that because of disorders like dyslexia people with developmental disorders have been treated in the same way, and through experience I can tell you that these "hidden disabilities" (as they are known) although they may hold you back in some ways the worst thing you can do is treat them as a disability.

I am not being politically correct when I say that they are not a disability unless someone would like to disagree and call me disabled.

Dreadful Scathe
28th-May-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
I don't think you were getting my point.


I was really changing the direction of the conversation rather than disagreeing with you, i did understand what you meant. But I see disabilities as just differences - it shouldnt have the dread connotations that it seems to have, if anything about you stops you from doing something the average person can do in your society you can be said to have a disability - doesnt mean for one minute that it really IS or that you would consider it a disability yourself, its only one perception. It was the intention of the word i was talking about rather than wether dyslexia or dyspraxia were disabilities - if you see what i mean :confused:

Theres also a big difference i think between somone refering to something as a disability (i.e. dyslexia is a disability when it comes to writing) and someone being called disabled because their 'spelling isn't so good'. If I suggested you were disabled because you have dyspraxia you would quite rightly be offended!

Yet again Im probably talking nonsense! but i do try to make sense, honest :)

Gadget
28th-May-2003, 10:22 PM
As I said, dyslexia {dyspraxia} is a fact, not an excuse: it is only when people start using 'hidden disabilities' as reasons to hide ignorance or lazyness that I get annoyed.

{OK, so I also suffer from lethargy, but I can't be assed to do anything about it :wink:}

PeterL
29th-May-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
As I said, dyslexia {dyspraxia} is a fact, not an excuse: it is only when people start using 'hidden disabilities' as reasons to hide ignorance or lazyness that I get annoyed.

{OK, so I also suffer from lethargy, but I can't be assed to do anything about it :wink:}

Now this attitude annoys me, however I have to say that some of the "coping mechanisms" that I have seen advocated for treatment of dyspraxia are highly suspect, because dyspraxics suffer from spacial awareness issues and co-ordination issues common "treatment" seems to be to avoid doing things that you will find difficult, as it is a development disorder this is not helpful but a hindrance to development.

I think you'll find gadget that laziness here is rarer than you think, I have a B in higher english but when writing written english I think "purpose and audience".

If the purpose and audience doesn't require good grammar and only requires communication it is the realm of the pedantic to point it out. My own spoken english is attrocious and I write in the same way. However my communication is far from atrocious as I get my point across aimed at the right "audience" with the "purpose" in mind. I couldn't speak till I was seven and still have trouble with certain sounds. I suffer from errors by substitution and ommission, however you or anyone else would probably not notice as it is done on words and sounds that you wouldn't think about. Most noticably I substitute the sound edy with ably (eg I'd say supposably because it is easier). II also miss out verbs all the time, Like I say "I hungry" rather than "I am hungry".
To be honest I get highly annoyed when people "especially those with heavy accents who are hard to understand" point these things out. Since they learnt to speak just as a side affect of being in the same room as people who spoke, while as in my case I had to spend years at elocution lessons and hours upon end practicing the exact position of my mouth and tongue.


If someone else dances better than you, you don't expect them to point out all your flaws, unless they are a teacher. So the same should be true of spelling and grammar on an open forum, unless someone is communicating in a way you do not understand.

Jayne
29th-May-2003, 11:16 AM
Did you hear about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac?

He'd lay awake all night wondering if there was a dog.

sorry. Couldn't resist. :sorry

J :nice:

Dreadful Scathe
29th-May-2003, 11:28 AM
I think this forum is very much a fun forum and pulling up people for their spelling is just one of the topics of conversation that keeps popping up. We are here to amuse and entertain ourselves and feel involved in the community spirit present in the forum, Ive never noticed anyone so far that has any other agenda. (Although TheTramps agenda seems to be if he posts enough he will eventually write shakespeare - or was that an infinite number of monkeys? i forget)

I would hope none of my nonsense is ever taken as offensive by anyone else! :D

Dreadful Scathe
29th-May-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Jayne
Did you hear about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac?

He'd lay awake all night wondering if there was a dog.



well done Jayne - thats my equal favourite joke of all time.

Along with the one about the giraffe and the one about the 12" pianist :)

Lou
29th-May-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Jayne
Did you hear about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac?
Or indeed the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.

I actually have a mild form of numerical dyslexia. The most noticible symptom is when I'm asked to read out a string of numbers I often actually say something totally different to what's on the paper. Oddly, if I'm asked to repeat it, I'll actually repeat exactly what I've said, but only realise when the person looks at me oddly! Same thing if I'm trying to write down a number.

Most people I work with realise that this is a problem, and accept that they have to speak slowly if giving me numbers, and are very accomodating.

I only discovered recently I had it, although if I think back to school days, I should've realised something was odd, because I always did well at logic puzzles, etc - but appallingly at maths! :really:

CJ
29th-May-2003, 12:21 PM
Dyslexic devil worshipper is one of my faves.

So, who was the tube that let that particularly unmusical, soulless lethario out of Shane Ritchie's cellar?

And can he be charged with aiding and abetting crimes against humanity?!?:D

Chicklet
29th-May-2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
So, who was the tube that let that particularly unmusical, soulless lethario out of Shane Ritchie's cellar?
D

:confused: what was Dave doing in Shane Richie's cellar?:confused:

Emma
29th-May-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by PeterL

If someone else dances better than you, you don't expect them to point out all your flaws, unless they are a teacher. So the same should be true of spelling and grammar on an open forum, unless someone is communicating in a way you do not understand. I wholeheartedly agree with you Peter, (though I confess I have been guilty of a little light-hearted ribbing on the forum). I've always thought that you shouldn't point out spelling/grammar errors with people you don't know, cos you just don't know who you are communicating with - someone with dyslexia, someone writing in a language other than their own, or someone like me who just can't type very well :nice:

Also, I'd be pretty surprised and upset if even a teacher pointed out all my flaws...dancing or otherwise. Seems like a pretty good way to completely destroy someone's confidence to me.

Rachel
29th-May-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Lou
I actually have a mild form of numerical dyslexia. The most noticible symptom is when I'm asked to read out a string of numbers I often actually say something totally different to what's on the paper. Oddly, if I'm asked to repeat it, I'll actually repeat exactly what I've said, but only realise when the person looks at me oddly! Same thing if I'm trying to write down a number. Oh wow - I do that, too! I've never really thought about anyone else doing it. Not surprising I was never a very good auditor, I guess!
Rachel

Gadget
29th-May-2003, 02:04 PM
You're certainly earing your title Peter :wink:

Originally posted by PeterL
Now this attitude annoys me,
:confused: My attitude, or the attitude of people who use 'hidden dissabilities' as excuses ?
I have met a few people who don't actually have the drive and concentration/focus to work with their dissabilities and don't even try to overcome the slightest challenge.
I assume that if you come accross an obstical that your dissability makes hard, you would either work at it untill you got it right, or find an alternative that would pass. It is those who do neither of these, and just refuse to do anything that bug me.


I also miss out verbs all the time, Like I say "I hungry" rather than "I am hungry".
I tend to miss the pro-noun {?} as well and just say "Hungry". I also have a habit of mixing up the words in sentances to say "I'm going out to food some grabs", but I usually hear it and correct it to save confusion.
I have a close friend who tended to mumble or talk quietly {also had years of speach therapy}. He is also fairly surreal and into quantum stuff, so sometimes conversations we had were like weird dreams.

unless someone is communicating in a way you do not understand.
I tend to spend more time thinking on the one word that sums up what I'm trying to say than use several. Unfortunatly, I then re-read it and think I have to expand on definitions, so my posts end up twice the length they should... waffle waffle waffle {we're back to food now... Hungry!}

I'ts an open forum; the words we use and the way in which we put them together to convey our ideas is all we have to define ourselves - the way you write is the way people will 'see' you.

Lou
29th-May-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
Oh wow - I do that, too! I've never really thought about anyone else doing it. Not surprising I was never a very good auditor, I guess! It's only when I met someone else who did it (an admin at my last job) I realised it's a lot more common than you'd think. :nice:

Dreadful Scathe
29th-May-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Lou
It's only when I met someone else who did it (an admin at my last job) I realised it's a lot more common than you'd think. :nice:

I know several people that do that too, and i admit i find it quiet annoying as i don't have the same problem. I can remember phone numbers from several friends i havent seen since school!!

Our default behaviour is always to judge people based on our own abilities, until we realise that everyone is different. The biggest myth in the world I think is 'always treat others as you would want to be treated', not the best idea for sado-masochists..... better to find out how other people would like to be treated first!

PeterL
29th-May-2003, 02:34 PM
Gadget

The things that annoy me are people that assume you have to overcome every little aspect off your disability.

The people that don't consider that you could read and write before you could speak.
The people that don't consider that you almost starved to death because you couldn't eat.
The people that don't consider that you can't look people in the eye without feeling awkward.
The people that don't consider that your clumsiness is caused by co-ordination and spatial awareness problems.
The people that don't consider that even your mum touching you made your skin crawl until later in adulthood.
The people that don't consider that when they start speaking in a group you feel socially excluded because you never learnt in the normal development years how to interact with a group of your peers.
The people that don't consider that the reason your shoelaces are untied is because you still have problems tying them.

What I am basically trying to say is that yes these things should not be used as an excuse to fail, but you don't know what a person has overcome to become the person they are today.
A lot of these disorders cause people to have low self esteem and people viewing them as lazy is not going to help, there are things I can't do there are things I can. The important ones I have learnt how to. I was lucky because I was never told that most of my symptoms were related to dyspraxia I just thought that I was socially inept, clumsy, forgetful, messy, disorganised etc.
I knew my speech disorder was related to it but the rest of it I found out in later life. So not having the excuse to fail I just practiced harder at the things I couldn't do. I went to special handwriting classes, I knitted to improve my co-ordination.
But life should not be a series of obstacles at some time you have to say that is enough, I am good enough and if anyone doesn't like it they can lump it.

Examples of people being ignorant and inconsiderate.

French teacher quote.
"Why do all you english speak French in an english accent"
didn't even occur to her that the problem wasn't my accent but my speech disorder.

An ex who constantly accused me off being lazy for not caring that I missed out words and mispronounced others, when my accent was easier to understand by the majority of the population than her broad Scottish accent.



My attitude, or the attitude of people who use 'hidden dissabilities' as excuses ?
I have met a few people who don't actually have the drive and concentration/focus to work with their dissabilities and don't even try to overcome the slightest challenge.



so next time you think the above think about what they may have already overcome, and maybe consider that there "hidden disabilitie" may even be a problem with there "concentration/focus".

If this post sounds annoyed sorry I suspect you don't mean what you said in quite the way I am taking it.

:)

TheTramp
29th-May-2003, 02:47 PM
I knitted to improve my co-ordination.Can I get a jumper please?? :na:

Steve

PeterL
29th-May-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Can I get a jumper please?? :na:

Steve

It's amazing the things a misguided socially inadequate kid will do.
haven't tried in over 15 years so I wouldn't be too good these days.
:cheers:

TheTramp
29th-May-2003, 02:55 PM
I dunno. Maybe you should resurrect your skills. If could be a moneyspinner....

Step right up. Get your forum jumper here. Handknitted forum jumpers....

:D

Steve

Dreadful Scathe
29th-May-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I dunno. Maybe you should resurrect your skills. If could be a moneyspinner....

Step right up. Get your forum jumper here. Handknitted forum jumpers....


and the fact that PeterL ever learnt to knit and accomplish the other things he has, just shows he's a better man than most. So why does he worry so ? :D

Dreadful Scathe
29th-May-2003, 03:37 PM
and another thing . Mr Tramp - you've been a monkey for quite some time now (and so has your avatar :D).... aren't you due an avatar change? :)

Jayne
29th-May-2003, 03:55 PM
When I go to the opticians I find that I can't remember the "names" of letters. Does this make me dyslexic too?

J :confused:

Gadget
29th-May-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
French teacher quote.
"Why do all you english speak French in an english accent"
didn't even occur to her that the problem wasn't my accent but my speech disorder.
Actually I had the opposite problem; the only reason I got 'acceptable' marks in French was because I could do the accent! :what: {I had no idea what I was saying!}


so next time you think the above think about what they may have already overcome, and maybe consider that there "hidden disabilitie" may even be a problem with there "concentration/focus".
You assume that I jump to these conclusions - as I said, I knew those people. Not just aquantences, but people I spent years learning and socialising with. I like to know someone before forming an opinion of them or questioning their actions/motives{/spelling :na: }.

Tiggerbabe
30th-May-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
but you don't know what a person has overcome to become the person they are today..............
.............I am good enough and if anyone doesn't like it they can lump it.
...............think about what they may have already overcome, and maybe consider that there "hidden disabilitie" may even be a problem with there "concentration/focus".

If this post sounds annoyed ..............

Peter, can I just say thanks for writing so honestly as you did. Your post really moved me and made me feel so humble as I have been guilty, too, of getting slightly annoyed with people's bad spelling/grammar.
I always try to do the above is someone is grumpy/downright rude...........I try to imagine what has happened in their life that day, or before, to make them feel so bad that they have to take it out on others.
However, when I was at school, as John S illustrated (not that I'm nearly as old as he is, of course :wink: ) - bad spelling was simply not tolerated and now it irks me too - or rather it did - I shall look on it with clearer eyes in the future.
So, my apologies and my thanks and NO it didn't sound annoyed - it was enlightening :sorry

John S
30th-May-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Sheena
Peter, can I just say thanks for writing so honestly as you did.
Definitely, 100% - I guess this thread must all have been painful / difficult for you but hopefully it's been an eyeopener and very helpful to a lot of us who take for granted what others have had to struggle for.


However, when I was at school, as John S illustrated (not that I'm nearly as old as he is, of course :wink: )
Huh, just when it looked as if Tigger was coming over all compassionate and sweet, she had to get a dig in at some poor, harmless old guy who hasn't done her any harm, didn't she?;)

Tiggerbabe
31st-May-2003, 12:21 AM
Oops - sorry babe!

PeterL
2nd-June-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Sheena
Peter, can I just say thanks for writing so honestly as you did. Your post really moved me and made me feel so humble as I have been guilty, too, of getting slightly annoyed with people's bad spelling/grammar.


Thanks Sheena,

I don't have the words to respond to that,
so thanks will have to do.
:nice: :o

Dreadful Scathe
20th-June-2003, 07:54 AM
To lighten things up a bit , what do you think of this ...... :D

Dreadful Scathe
20th-June-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
To lighten things up a bit , what do you think of this ...... :D

i take it from the silence nobody 'got it' - or are you all really slow ? :) (the picture has been digitally altered)

PeterL
20th-June-2003, 02:53 PM
yes it would be really difficult to spot that.
:D