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robd
23rd-November-2006, 02:30 PM
Thought I'd move my post (below) from the 'Men dancing as followers' thread to start a new thread since it's a slightly different focus from that thread.


some of the best follows I've seen are guys.. :whistle:


Interesting you say that Jamie as I discussed this with, I think ZW, recently. My view was that even though there are some competent male followers, none of them are as good as the better female followers (nor would I expect them to be). I always find an element of anticipation creeping in when I dance with another man. It's very slight but it is there, particularly on a first move. It may, of course, be an indictment of my leading and I am not trying to lay fault. What I am saying is that I do not notice this with the better female followers.

I would also expect (but am not in a position to assess) that even the well regarded female leaders are not as good as the best male leaders. Having said that, I am not sure I would want to know most forum women's answer to 'Who would you prefer to be lead by - me or Sparkles?' :blush:


So, what's other people's experiences and views of this? Do you think that the best male follows/female leads are or can be as good as their female/male counterparts?

Robert

TheTramp
23rd-November-2006, 02:35 PM
Not yet.

I think that there are some people who have the ability to become as good as their opposite role. But, without the experience of many dances, then it's not going to happen.

And while there are a few people of both sexes who do dance the opposite role, it does tend to be on a (comparatively) fairly infrequent basis (probably more females dancing as leads on a regular basis than the other way round). Without the 20 dances a night over a prolonged period, it'll be hard to reach the top echelon.

Which isn't to say that ladies like Sparkles, Tiggerbabe, Tessalicious etc. aren't very good leads, or people like Jamie, Jamie, Noel etc. aren't good followers. Just that they're (probably) never going to be as good as the best people in either role.

Sparkles
23rd-November-2006, 02:37 PM
Thought I'd move my post (below) from the 'Men dancing as followers' thread to start a new thread since it's a slightly different focus from that thread.

Moderating yourself now? Very pro-active of you :rolleyes: :rofl:

Lee Bartholomew
23rd-November-2006, 02:39 PM
Not yet.

I think that there are some people who have the ability to become as good as their opposite role. But, without the experience of many dances, then it's not going to happen.

And while there are a few people of both sexes who do dance the opposite role, it does tend to be on a (comparatively) fairly infrequent basis (probably more females dancing as leads on a regular basis than the other way round). Without the 20 dances a night over a prolonged period, it'll be hard to reach the top echelon.

Tramps right.

As a male taking a follow role, you might be lucky to get one or two dances a night as a follow. Women on the other hand get to do it almost constantly so in general they will be better.

depends on who is being compared to who though. A good male lead will be better than a beginer female lead and vice versa. If you are compareing a male and female who have been dancing 6 months. The female will (or at least in theory should) win at being a follow because of the amount of time they have had to practise that role.

Does that make sense?

Clueless
23rd-November-2006, 02:40 PM
When guys learn to dance they learn to lead, when women learn they learn to follow so to suddenly change roles goes against what we have been taught and practised again and again.

I think the sense of anticipation you feel when you dance with a guy is that the guy assumes he knows the move and expecing that you will do one move when you are probably thinking of another, whereas the girl has been taught to not think or assume moves hence there is no anticipation.

TheTramp
23rd-November-2006, 02:41 PM
Tramps right.

First time for everything! :rolleyes:


depends on who is being compared to who though.

Well, the question did specifically ask to compare against the best in the role....

robd
23rd-November-2006, 02:41 PM
Moderating yourself now?

Moderation - it's the new black. Or something.

Trouble
23rd-November-2006, 02:43 PM
anticipation is brought about from a poor lead simple. if a person is anticipating its because they do not understand the move your making. :D :flower:

Sparkles
23rd-November-2006, 02:46 PM
Not yet.

I think that there are some people who have the ability to become as good as their opposite role.

:yeah:
And I think there are some people who already dance better in their opposite role than some other people who dance that role 'naturally' (if that makes sense).
It's all about practice and patience - it's almost as difficult as learning two different dance styles, IMO. But that doesn't mean you can't be as good, or even better, at dancing in the 'opposite role' if you put int he time and effort.

I'm flattered when people say they enjoy me leading them, but also embarrassed that I'm not as good as I should be for the amount of practice I've had :blush:.

I started leading because I got bored learning my own steps over and over at ballroom classes, and found that it was easier to understand what I was supposed to do if I learnt what the leader was trying to make me do... and at Ceroc classes this was valuable for a couple of reasons: because it's so boring sitting out all the time when there aren't enough men, and because otherwise I would never have managed to make female friends at dancing so quickly :flower:.

MartinHarper
23rd-November-2006, 02:46 PM
I always find an element of anticipation creeping in when I dance with another man.

Ya, anticipation seems to be the biggest problem for male follows. There's other stuff too, I suspect, but anticipation is the most obvious thing.

TheTramp
23rd-November-2006, 02:50 PM
Ya, anticipation seems to be the biggest problem for male follows. There's other stuff too, I suspect, but anticipation is the most obvious thing.

I think that the issue here is that guys just don't get to follow enough.

I've said before that Franck is the best leader that I've danced with. I don't think that I anticipate much at all when I dance with him (this is where he tells me I do! :tears: ). I've also probably danced the most with him.

Other people, I might dance with once every few months. It takes a while to get used to following them, given the lack of experience of following, and yes, I probably do anticipate more then.

But at the beginning, most (all?) female dancers anticipate. They just have more practice at getting out of that habit....

robd
23rd-November-2006, 02:53 PM
if a person is anticipating its because they do not understand the move your making. :D :flower:

No, it's not. It is because they think they do understand the move you are making.

In the example I gave of a first move, they understand correctly because, yes, I am trying to lead a first move. The anticipation most often comes in them turning themselves out to step back left rather than being led to do so. Many beginner women do this too and, as has been rightly pointed out already in the thread, most male followers in terms of experience of being led aren't much beyond the stage of beginner women anyway.

Jamie
23rd-November-2006, 02:54 PM
The best male follow I've seen is CentrAlex, I can follow, doesn't mean to say I'm good at it, or, for that matter better than another woman. I had a convo with a few friends a while back, one of the best leads I've had, is a woman... Clarity, strength, signals, all of which were fantastic.. I've danced with quite a number of guys and sorry to say boys, but a lady beat you to the top spot!

Trouble
23rd-November-2006, 02:57 PM
No, it's not. It is because they think they do understand the move you are making.

In the example I gave of a first move, they understand correctly because, yes, I am trying to lead a first move. The anticipation most often comes in them turning themselves out to step back left rather than being led to do so. Many beginner women do this too and, as has been rightly pointed out already in the thread, most male followers in terms of experience of being led aren't much beyond the stage of beginner women anyway.

:confused: yep, as i said before, its because they dont understand the move being lead. :D :flower:

Lory
23rd-November-2006, 03:01 PM
Could it be that men are always having to think slightly ahead of time, in their usual role, as lead, to transfer the information to the follow 'on time', which in turn, makes them antisipate :confused:

Genie
23rd-November-2006, 03:15 PM
It's difficult either way. But I think it's probably more difficult for a lead to let go of the 'thought' process involved in dancing, than it is for a follow to start thinking. It's always easier to think than not to. When someone says "don't think of {insert suggestion here}" then it's usually very difficult not to.

MartinHarper
23rd-November-2006, 03:21 PM
I think that the issue here is that guys just don't get to follow enough.

The other difference is that we tend to have less variety in our leaders. It feels similar to women who spend 90% of their time dancing with their significant other, and noticeably backlead/anticipate when they dance with someone else.

TheTramp
23rd-November-2006, 03:29 PM
The other difference is that we tend to have less variety in our leaders. It feels similar to women who spend 90% of their time dancing with their significant other, and noticeably backlead/anticipate when they dance with someone else.

That might be true. Depends how hard you work at it I guess :rolleyes:

I just sorted the forum members list into posting order. And on the first page, I'd danced with 20 of the guys listed (out of about 24).

I was hoping to make it 21 on Saturday, but it seems that nothing can persuade DavidJames to come to Hammersmith! :whistle:

David Bailey
23rd-November-2006, 04:02 PM
I was hoping to make it 21 on Saturday, but it seems that nothing can persuade DavidJames to come to Hammersmith! :whistle:
So, I'm just a notch on your belt, huh? I feel so abused.

Anyway, Hammersmith makes Fulham look good, IMO.

TheTramp
23rd-November-2006, 04:54 PM
So, I'm just a notch on your belt, huh? I feel so abused.

Anyway, Hammersmith makes Fulham look good, IMO.

Oh. You'd have been so much more to me than that! :rolleyes:

Cruella
23rd-November-2006, 05:00 PM
Moderating yourself now? Very pro-active of you :rolleyes: :rofl:

He's a David James 'wanna be.'

TheTramp
23rd-November-2006, 05:01 PM
He's a David James 'wanna be.'

Aren't we all?? :rolleyes:

Cruella
23rd-November-2006, 05:19 PM
No!! I like my hair!

Jamie
23rd-November-2006, 05:23 PM
No!! I like my hair!

I like your hair too hun :flower: x

Daydreaming Diva
23rd-November-2006, 05:57 PM
So, what's other people's experiences and views of this? Do you think that the best male follows/female leads are or can be as good as their female/male counterparts?



Well I would say (and its always a mistake to generalise so I apologise in advance :blush: ) that the chances are much higher for females to make good leads than males to make good followers. But better than their male/female counterparts, NO, I doubt it. Two reasons spring to mind.
1. When a girl dances lead she knows what she needs in the way of a lead in order to follow a particular move. (If she's any good at following that is :wink: ). So she's likely to put this into practice automatically when she leads. But men have to learn how to lead by trial and error as most signals are not visual, but use subconscious body language, impossible to teach.

2. The other reason is that men have an innate strength, in their arms and their legs and bodies, which they use to control their partner. Unfortunately it is very hard for them to leave this behind when they follow - at least that has been my experience. I've no doubt at all that some men can do this, but follow should be exactly that, it should not be about dancing the girls moves. I have danced with a few forumite men dancing follow, and my experience has been that they cannot follow a gentle lead, they need a firm hand. :yum: :yum: Following is not about having to be yanked about, now is it!!! :innocent:

As a lady I find it so much easier to lead ladies, even beginner ladies, even ladies who don't yet know the meaning of 'follow'. I just get them to look at me. I must admit that the most difficult men to follow are those who just WILL NOT look at me. :angry:

So male ballet dancers may stand a chance of equalling the ability of female leads, and very butch ladies may be able to lead as well as men, but it begs the question ....... why would they want to????

robd
23rd-November-2006, 06:01 PM
No!! I like my hair!

Which set? Top lip? Or underarm?

TheTramp
23rd-November-2006, 06:02 PM
Which set? Top lip? Or underarm?

Please stop there.....

Cruella
23rd-November-2006, 06:09 PM
Please stop there.....

Aahh, are you getting all protective? :whistle:

TheTramp
23rd-November-2006, 06:10 PM
Aahh, are you getting all protective? :whistle:

Nope. I was just worried that he was moving down!

Cruella
23rd-November-2006, 06:13 PM
Nope. I was just worried that he was moving down!

Or he may have been going in the opposite direction. :innocent:
Yes i know he said top!

TheTramp
23rd-November-2006, 06:22 PM
Or he may have been going in the opposite direction. :innocent:
Yes i know he said top!

Upper lip down to armpit suggested otherwise.....

MartinHarper
24th-November-2006, 02:35 AM
I have danced with a few forumite men dancing follow, and my experience has been that they cannot follow a gentle lead, they need a firm hand. Following is not about having to be yanked about, now is it!

Interesting. I've only really noticed heaviness in male follows in the context of anticipation. I can well believe we need a firmer lead. I tend not to think in those terms when leading, so I imagine I miss that.
That said, one of the positive things from being a male follow is the ability to be "yanked around" and not break. Women have to work pretty hard to achieve the same resilience.


It begs the question ....... why would they want to????

Oh, that's easy. Because it's more fun.

spindr
24th-November-2006, 11:19 AM
Female leaders are rubbish -- half of them can't even keep their hand over your head when turning you :)

SpinDr (6'4'' + 2'' cuban heel)

Sparkles
24th-November-2006, 12:07 PM
Female leaders are rubbish -- half of them can't even keep their hand over your head when turning you :)

SpinDr (6'4'' + 2'' cuban heel)

And the other half :whistle: :devil: ??

Ghost
24th-November-2006, 06:51 PM
Ya, anticipation seems to be the biggest problem for male follows.
Strange. I'd have thought the one big benefit of guys not usually doing classes as a follow was that you don't learn the intermediate moves well enough to anticipate. You just have to trust that the lead knows what they're doing.

In terms of leads, my favourite lead is female but sadly she rarely leads any more.

I've learnt significantly more about leading from female leads than male ones.

Ghost
26th-November-2006, 12:30 AM
(From another thread)

proof if proof were needed (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=349926517633642982) (yeah, Lindy - not enough Ceroc stuff on the 'net).
:)

MartinHarper
26th-November-2006, 01:27 AM
Recently I learnt an anecdote about that video from Gary Boon, when he showed it to his class (along with a couple others) as an example of what to do in Lindy. Apparently, in the past, nobody in the Lindy world danced to that version of "love me or leave me". It just wasn't played. It was that performance, and its distribution via the internet and video-swapping, that made it such an enduringly popular track.

MartinHarper
26th-November-2006, 01:58 AM
In the interests of providing fresh content, here's the same routine at another event: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIrkp9x2kjQ

littlewiggle
26th-November-2006, 09:48 AM
:confused: yep, as i said before, its because they dont understand the move being lead. :D :flower:

:yeah: