Gender Balance the word from Ceroc HQ

[stewart38]

Instead of asking here, why not email ceroc to ask?

A response from Tim Cherret at Ceroc HQ repeated in full (I said id publish it)

I must admit the imbalance mention at the end seems very high compared to Franco 10% , maybe ceroc attracts more women then Jive?

------------------------------
Mike is out on the road, but as the allocationist for weekend events I think I can answer your question.

We are aware that the issue of gender balancing is a very controversial subject. However, we conducted a lot of research amongst our membership before we hosted our first event, essentially we asked members to list the top 5 things that they wanted from a weekender.

It became apparent very quickly that gender balancing was extremely important. A number of ladies complained that all too often at major
ticketed events they could go for long periods of time without getting a dance despite asking men to dance. There were also complaints from men who felt pressurised to dance to every song even though physically they didn't feel capable.

The gender balancing is controlled by our booking system and is the
product of many hours of development. For commercial reasons we are not able to communicate exactly how it works. We can however state some basic principles:

1. The same number of tickets are available for men and women.

2. We will allow an imbalance of one gender to another within a very
strict margin.

3. The gender balancing restriction has a 'time' element and it allows a greater degree of imbalance when we first launch an event, the gender disparity is then narrowed as the event draws nearer.


Having analysed the waiting lists from our two Escape web sites, I have calculated that for our first event at Camber Sands we would have attracted 16 ladies for every 10 men if we hadn't enforced a gender restriction and 17 ladies for every 11 men at Brean Sands. Although this isn't necessarily 100% accurate, it does at least demonstrate to us that we have to gender balance our events.

I hope you find this useful.
---------------------------------

[David Bailey]

I must admit the imbalance mention at the end seems very high compared to Franco 10% , maybe ceroc attracts more women then Jive?
Ummm, Franco does a "100 over" balancing thing doesn't he? Or something, I'm still trying to get my head around the, ahem, "methodology" described...

My goodness, 60% over :eek: - that'd be seriously scary.

Excellent post, Stewart, thanks.

[Lory]

Having analysed the waiting lists from our two Escape web sites, I have calculated that for our first event at Camber Sands we would have attracted 16 ladies for every 10 men if we hadn't enforced a gender restriction and 17 ladies for every 11 men at Brean Sands. Although this isn't necessarily 100% accurate, it does at least demonstrate to us that we have to gender balance our events.


Wow, fascinating stuff! :what:

I can only imagine how hellish it would be, without the gender balancing :eek: :sick:

[Sparkles]

I can only imagine how hellish it would be, without the gender balancing :eek: :sick:

I don't know about "hellish", but certainly BORING would be true - who wants to go to a dancing event and not dance? :what: :eek:

It's nice to see someone actually asking the people 'in the know' and posting a factual reply on here - way to go Stewart :cheers:

[TiggsTours]

However, we conducted a lot of research amongst our membership before we hosted our first event, essentially we asked members to list the top 5 things that they wanted from a weekender.

Really? I'd say we have quite a large cross-section of their membership here on this forum, was anybody here asked for their views in this research?


......maybe ceroc attracts more women then Jive?
Do not get me started on this one!

[Lee Bartholomew]

I personally think that both men and women know how these things pan out. I would be abit gutted if I missed out on an event just because im a male.

fortunatley (from a dancing point of view) I am male (at least I was last time I looked) so im not in the position of gender balancing really affecting me, other than getting worn out by over dancing of course.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Really? I'd say we have quite a large cross-section of their membership here on this forumI wouldn't. The people who use the forum are completely unrepresentative of anything except themselves.

[David Bailey]

It's nice to see someone actually asking the people 'in the know' and posting a factual reply on here - way to go Stewart :cheers:
:yeah:

But hold on - it could start a trend - then where would we be, with all our speculation and gossip? :eek:

[El Salsero Gringo]

:yeah:

But hold on - it could start a trend - then where would we be, with all our speculation and gossip? :eek:The moderators would be out of a job, for a start.

[stewart38]

Really? I'd say we have quite a large cross-section of their membership here on this forum, was anybody here asked for their views in this research?




Nope !!

But ive made them known anyway :blush:

Fair play to ceroc i didnt expect such a quick response

I still find the imbalance figures hard to swallow :sick:

Maybe women are staying 'away' from Franco events and he will get a close gender balance anyway without doing anything ?

e.g May 2004 camber was far more imbalanced

[TiggsTours]

I wouldn't. The people who use the forum are completely unrepresentative of anything except themselves.

Really? Or are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing?

So, you don't think that out of all the people on this forum that we make up anywhere near a substantial percentage of Ceroc's membership? Or that the fact this is an open forum with international membership that we are in any way a cross-representation of that membership? Or are you the one who is actually classing us all into the same category? You don't think the forum attracts members of Ceroc of all ages, walks of life, locations, tastes in music, sexes?

Ceroc claim that the conducted research amongst a number of their members, I'd like to think that if they were doign proper market research, they ensured that they made sure it was a wide-spread approach, so being there are so many of us on here, who also happen to be members of Ceroc, that at least a few of us were approached.

I'm not saying we weren't only that I never heard of anyone being asked for their opinion, and I'm interested to see if anyone on here was.

[David Bailey]

Really? Or are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing?
Probably both - :rolleyes: - but in this case, I agree with ESG.


So, you don't think that out of all the people on this forum that we make up anywhere near a substantial percentage of Ceroc's membership? Or that the fact this is an open forum with international membership that we are in any way a cross-representation of that membership? Or are you the one who is actually classing us all into the same category? You don't think the forum attracts members of Ceroc of all ages, walks of life, locations, tastes in music, sexes?
There's a lot of forum members, yes, but there's not a lot of active (regularly-posting) members - 200 or so at most I reckon. Out of, what 100,000+ members?

Also, we're absolutely not representative, which is the key point - I think that's pretty well-established. Generally, we're the ones who care more about dancing than the average ceroc-er, so any poll will reflect that.

[TheTramp]

Really? Or are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing?

Now. Would anyone do that, Amanda?? :whistle:

I think that the forumite population as a whole, is reasonably representative of the cross-section of Ceroc dancers.

However, the active population isn't.....

[TiggsTours]

Probably both - :rolleyes: - but in this case, I agree with ESG.


There's a lot of forum members, yes, but there's not a lot of active (regularly-posting) members - 200 or so at most I reckon. Out of, what 100,000+ members?

Also, we're absolutely not representative, which is the key point - I think that's pretty well-established. Generally, we're the ones who care more about dancing than the average ceroc-er, so any poll will reflect that.

I don't think I ever said, or even suggested, that the forum is representative of Ceroc members, I think I said that we make up a cross-section/cross-representation, meaning a percentage of the overall representation. If someone is conducting market research outside my local tesco, and asking a cross-section of people who go in there on that day, and I then stop say 25% of the people who walk past me and ask them if they were stopped to contribute to it, I would at least expect some of them to say yes!

What I'm saying is, there are quite a few active members here on this forum, if Ceroc were doing market research, where they asked a good cross-section of their members (not just all their mates at Ceroc London) for their feedback, don't you think its reasonable to expect that someone amongst the active members of this forum was asked?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Really? Or are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing?

So, you don't think that out of all the people on this forum that we make up anywhere near a substantial percentage of Ceroc's membership?No, I know for a fact that they're not. There are about 50-60 people who are regular members and post on the forum at any one time. Polls never get more than that amount of votes, for example - and rarely even that many.Nor do birthday threads ever top about 60 posts. Thousands of others sign up but never log in again, or read and don't post, so they won't answer your question. I also know roughly how many tens of thousands of people are on the Ceroc London database.
Or that the fact this is an open forum with international membership that we are in any way a cross-representation of that membership?The people who do post regularly here are not representative of Ceroc members in general either. They're disproportionately more experienced, more involved and more interested than the average dancer. I established that by a survey not long after I joined the Forum, although I was bitchslapped to kingdom-come by all and sundry on the Forum for wasting time proving the obvious.
Or are you the one who is actually classing us all into the same category?No, I'm not putting anyone in any categories, let alone the same (apparently) unspecified category.
You don't think the forum attracts members of Ceroc of all ages, walks of life, locations, tastes in music, sexes?That's not what I said. I said that the Forum is not a large cross section of Ceroc customers, because I know for a fact it is not so.

[stewart38]

No, I know for a fact that they're not. There are about 50-60 people who are regular members and post on the forum at any one time. I also know roughly how many tens of thousands of people are on the Ceroc London database.The people who do post regularly here are not representative of Ceroc members in general either.


Agree don’t think people on this forum represent your average ceroc member

So lets assume 55 regular posters know at least 10 others in the ceroc world who don’t post. If they ask them and if 555 people say they were not approached at all , would you give any credence to that ?

I think at present we have 2 (who I assume are on the ceroc date base who were not approached)

Maybe they didn’t approach anyone ?

I think we know the comment re we know our punters prefer to pay £10 for a car parking space is a bit untrue re camber?

I would guess the date base cant contain more then 2,000 to 3,000 active members (London)? Nationally 25,000 max ?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Agree don’t think people on this forum represent your average ceroc member

So lets assume 55 regular posters know at least 10 others in the ceroc world who don’t post. If they ask them and if 555 people say they were not approached at all , would you give any credence to that ?Personally? No. How many people do you have to ask to get the idea that women don't like events with an excess of other women? Three? Four? Five? Do you need to scientfically survey 1000's in a Mori-style poll at venues? Are you saying Ceroc are actually *wrong* about this?
Maybe they didn’t approach anyone ?So what if they didn't? Who gives a *****?

These guys are running a dance company, trying to earn themselves a living and trying to keep you happy at the same time. You got an answer to your question. Now quit the carping.

[Lory]

I was bitchslapped to kingdom-come by all and sundry on the Forum
He loved every minute :devil: and he's been trying hard to provoke a situation to recreate this fantasy again, ever since! :whistle: :wink:

[El Salsero Gringo]

He loved every minute :devil: and he's been trying hard to provoke a situation to recreate this fantasy again, ever since! :whistle: :wink:*******s.

[stewart38]

we have
------------------
We are aware that the issue of gender balancing is a very controversial subject. However, we conducted a lot of research amongst our membership before we hosted our first event, essentially we asked members to list the top 5 things that they wanted from a weekender.
---------------

Lets assume they didnt ask anyone and hence as a commercial organsiation made a number of decisions which they may or maynot vary in the furture

However i take reference with


?So what if they didn't? Who gives a *****?



Those who give a **** are those that cant go on SWISH in feb as their women , the people who are more represenative of ceroc rather then its paymasters :whistle:

[TiggsTours]

Personally? No. How many people do you have to ask to get the idea that women don't like events with an excess of other women? Three? Four? Five? Do you need to scientfically survey 1000's in a Mori-style poll at venues? Are you saying Ceroc are actually *wrong* about this?So what if they didn't? Who gives a *****?
I do, when the categorically state:



A response from Tim Cherret at Ceroc HQ However, we conducted a lot of research amongst our membership before we hosted our first event, essentially we asked members to list the top 5 things that they wanted from a weekender.

I don't want to pay my hard earned cash to a company that lie to me, and treat their customers like they are stupid, and their opinions do not matter.

If, however, the did conduct this market research, then between us all we must surely know of at least one person who was asked, that's the only reason I'm asking.

If Ceroc felt that they did not need to question their customers to know that gender balancing is important to them, that's fine, and completely understandable, I'd just like to think that they respect their customers enough to be honest about it.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Those who give a **** are those that cant go on SWISH in feb as their women , the people who are more represenative of ceroc rather then its paymasters :whistle:OK. I think (although I'm not sure) that what you're saying is that all the women who can't go to Swish are more representative of Ceroc's customer base than I am, because I get paid to teach Ceroc. It's true that I'm certainly a very atypical Ceroc member, but I don't think it affects the gender balancing policy.

I do still think you're carping though :whistle:

[Cruella]

If, however, the did conduct this market research, then between us all we must surely know of at least one person who was asked, that's the only reason I'm asking..

Maybe they just read the zillion threads about Gender Balancing on here. :whistle:

[TiggsTours]

Maybe they just read the zillion threads about Gender Balancing on here. :whistle:

I doubt it, Mike Ellard once told me that nobody in the Ceroc headoffice has time to bother with reading the forum. I did mention to him that hundreds of his customer base talking all day long about his business and their opinion of it should possibly be of interest to him, I don't know if he changed his mind at all, maybe he's "Getagrip"?

[El Salsero Gringo]

I don't want to pay my hard earned cash to a company that lie to me, and treat their customers like they are stupid, and their opinions do not matter.

If, however, the did conduct this market research, then between us all we must surely know of at least one person who was asked, that's the only reason I'm asking.If that's what they say they did, then I have no reason to doubt it.

Once again I am agog at the level of mendacity, condescenscion, amorality and conspiracy that so many people enjoy reading into every word and action that comes out of one company.

You spend your "hard earned cash" with hundreds or thousands of commercial enterprises over the course of a year. Do you really subject every word that you receive from each of them to this level of sceptical micro-interpretation?

What is it about Ceroc that gives everyone the impression that they have the right to preach to it? I also used to think that someone at Ceroc ought to keep an eye on the Forum because it had feedback they might find useful. But now I'm seeing how the level of bile here could drive even the toughest away!

[MartinHarper]

I established that by a survey not long after I joined the Forum

Ya: How representative is the Forum: results (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4902)

[Cruella]

You spend your "hard earned cash" with hundreds or thousands of commercial enterprises over the course of a year. Do you really subject every word that you receive from each of them to this level of sceptical micro-interpretation?


But we don't have a forum to vent on for Sainsburys, NPower ............etc.

[stewart38]

we have





I don't want to pay my hard earned cash to a company that lie to me, and treat their customers like they are stupid, and their opinions do not matter.

If, however, the did conduct this market research, then between us all we must surely know of at least one person who was asked, that's the only reason I'm asking.

If Ceroc felt that they did not need to question their customers to know that gender balancing is important to them, that's fine, and completely understandable, I'd just like to think that they respect their customers enough to be honest about it.


and we have


I do still think you're carping though :whistle:


Tigg Tours watch you back this lunch time and dont go to lunch with strangers and make sure if your hair does start to fall out you seek immediate medical treatment

This maybe a new watergate and i dont want to get involved, the management have said who gives a s***, so let it rest :sad:

[El Salsero Gringo]

But we don't have a forum to vent on for Sainsburys, NPower ............etc.Actually now you mention it, I have read posts on things like www.blueyonderarecrap.com (OK, not that one, I just made that up but you get the idea) that match some of the stuff on here. But those forums are *designed* for people who dislike the service the company gives - the Ceroc Scotland Forum (you'd think) would be for people who actually like Ceroc!

[El Salsero Gringo]

the management have said who gives a s***, so let it rest :sad:I'm not management.

[TiggsTours]

If that's what they say they did, then I have no reason to doubt it.

Once again I am agog at the level of mendacity, condescenscion, amorality and conspiracy that so many people enjoy reading into every word and action that comes out of one company.

You spend your "hard earned cash" with hundreds or thousands of commercial enterprises over the course of a year. Do you really subject every word that you receive from each of them to this level of sceptical micro-interpretation?

What is it about Ceroc that gives everyone the impression that they have the right to preach to it?

In all the years that I have been a Ceroc customer or crew, I have only been asked for feedback once on anything, and that was by you. I have never felt that they value the opinions of their staff or customers because of that.

I have always been asked for feedback from all the other smaller dance companies that I attend, consequently I have always felt like a valued customer.

I am not saying that they have not conducted this research, all I'm saying is that I have seen no evidence that they have, and so far you (being the one defending them so strongly) have failed to produce any. I am fully prepared to accept that they may well have conducted this research, and so am meerly enquiring as to whether anyone heard anything about it. My enquiry only seems to have highlighted that I am not the only one who has not seen any evidence of this research.

I personally do not like to be lied to. I am happy to accept I may not have been, and I was not looking for evidence that I was, but reactions I have had in the past from the organisation, and the lack of knowledge amongst ourselves of this research, leads me to feel as if I have been misled.

[MartinHarper]

If, however, the did conduct this market research, then between us all we must surely know of at least one person who was asked, that's the only reason I'm asking.

If it helps, I recently took part in a poll at Ceroc Wythall about whether I wanted a class before the weekend freestyle. I said I didn't mind, and the person taking the poll marked me down as "Yes, I would like a class". I mention this just to reassure people that Ceroc (or at minimum, this particular Ceroc franchisee) do indeed conduct market research.

My guess is that Ceroc Ent. used focus groups to determine how to successfully enter the weekend market, rather than larger scale polls. That's what I'd do. Also, I'd select focus group members who could be trusted not to blab my plans to all and sundry. IE: non-forumites.

In any case, I don't see any motive for lieing about it.

[TiggsTours]

If it helps, I recently took part in a poll at Ceroc Wythall about whether I wanted a class before the weekend freestyle. I said I didn't mind, and the person taking the poll marked me down as "Yes, I would like a class". I mention this just to reassure people that Ceroc (or at minimum, this particular Ceroc franchisee) do indeed conduct market research.

My guess is that Ceroc Ent. used focus groups to determine how to successfully enter the weekend market, rather than larger scale polls. That's what I'd do. Also, I'd select focus group members who could be trusted not to blab my plans to all and sundry. IE: non-forumites.

In any case, I don't see any motive for lieing about it.

Thank you Martin. I am now happy that Ceroc do conduct market research, and so am happy that they have been honest with us all.

[Franck]

In all the years that I have been a Ceroc customer or crew, I have only been asked for feedback once on anything, and that was by you. I have never felt that they value the opinions of their staff or customers because of that.I'm assuming you feel frustrated they haven't listened to your feedback!

Ceroc spend a huge amount of time and money researching their customer base. By phone, direct polls at venues, using the extensive database and yes, reading the forum too.

The only time people complain about Ceroc doing any research is when the results differ from their personal views.

[Lou]

Maybe they look at old threads, like this one (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6442) or this one (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6971)... :flower:

[stewart38]

Thank you Martin. I am now happy that Ceroc do conduct market research, and so am happy that they have been honest with us all.

Me to and all joking aside , id like to thank ceroc for coming back so quickly :worthy:

Ceroc and i use the word ceroc have given me 12yrs of great fun although if they had gender balancing 9 years ago i might not have met the ex wife , bas**** why not sooner

[MartinHarper]

Off-topic, but:


You spend your "hard earned cash" with hundreds or thousands of commercial enterprises over the course of a year. Do you really subject every word that you receive from each of them to this level of sceptical micro-interpretation?

Ya, pretty much. For example, when a company tells me to Obey My Thirst, I sceptically assume that they are suggesting this in order to boost their sales, rather than out of a concern for my health if I fail to keep properly hydrated.

[El Salsero Gringo]

In all the years that I have been a Ceroc customer or crew, I have only been asked for feedback once on anything, and that was by you. I have never felt that they value the opinions of their staff or customers because of that.

I have always been asked for feedback from all the other smaller dance companies that I attend, consequently I have always felt like a valued customer.

I am not saying that they have not conducted this research, all I'm saying is that I have seen no evidence that they have, and so far you (being the one defending them so strongly) have failed to produce any. I am fully prepared to accept that they may well have conducted this research, and so am meerly enquiring as to whether anyone heard anything about it. My enquiry only seems to have highlighted that I am not the only one who has not seen any evidence of this research.

I personally do not like to be lied to. I am happy to accept I may not have been, and I was not looking for evidence that I was, but reactions I have had in the past from the organisation, and the lack of knowledge amongst ourselves of this research, leads me to feel as if I have been misled.Oh Lord.

"They've failed to produce any evidence... you've failed to produce any ... I've not seen any evidence ... lack of knowledge amongst ourselves ... feel as if I have been misled."

So you've made it clear that the practical outcome of Stewart's enquiry is that you're calling Ceroc a bunch of liars, and that you feel worse about wards the company than if they hadn't even bothered to respond! It was my suggestion to Stewart that he email Ceroc to ask about the gender balancing policy. I now think that was a mistake. I see now that it's actually better for Ceroc *not* to attempt to answer customer queries because someone here will always twist, turn and manipulate whatever they say in a desperate desire to feel done-down.

Ceroc HQ is staffed by real people too, also with feelings, just like you. If you want to get the best out of them - encourage a little more communication - and feedback - both ways, then you can help too.

[Lory]

Maybe they look at old threads, like this one (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6442) or this one (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6971)... :flower:

What about THIS (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8007) one?


From my quick skim through again, it seems it was 'high' on the list of importance for most ;)

[stewart38]

Oh Lord.

"They've failed to produce any evidence... you've failed to produce any ... I've not seen any evidence ... lack of knowledge amongst ourselves ... feel as if I have been misled."

So you've made it clear that the practical outcome of Stewart's enquiry is that you're calling Ceroc a bunch of liars, and that you feel worse about wards the company than if they hadn't even bothered to respond! It was my suggestion to Stewart that he email Ceroc to ask about the gender balancing policy. I now think that was a mistake. I see now that it's actually better for Ceroc *not* to attempt to answer customer queries because someone here will always twist, turn and manipulate whatever they say in a desperate desire to feel done-down.

Ceroc HQ is staffed by real people too, also with feelings, just like you. If you want to get the best out of them - encourage a little more communication - and feedback - both ways, then you can help too.

I respect their response and additional comments from forum members who have given actual examples, where punters views were sort

now what do you want me to find out from the united nations ?

[TiggsTours]

I'm assuming you feel frustrated they haven't listened to your feedback!
No, I thought I made myself clear that I feel frustrated that in the 10 years I have been a customer, I haven't once been asked for my feedback, that's totally different to not having been listened to.


The only time people complain about Ceroc doing any research is when the results differ from their personal views.
Well, that's where you're wrong, I completely agree with their views on gender balancing, I never said that I didn't, all I said was that I was interested to know if anyone on this forum had ever been asked to give their feedback in the wide reaching research they were talking about.


So you've made it clear that the practical outcome of Stewart's enquiry is that you're calling Ceroc a bunch of liars.
Not at all, I made it quite clear that I was perfectly willing accept that they had conducted the research, and was purely interested to see if anyone had been part of it. The fact it took so long for someone to say they had, and people very quickly made it clear that they had not, made me wonder, that's all.


Ceroc HQ is staffed by real people too, also with feelings, just like you. If you want to get the best out of them - encourage a little more communication - and feedback - both ways, then you can help too.
I would love to. I have emailed Ceroc head office with my thoughts in the past, and been completely ignored. I have also asked Mike Ellard directly if he ever reads this forum, and been told straight that "nobody in the Ceroc headoffice has time to bother with it".

[El Salsero Gringo]

You're still doing it, TT - still having a bash.
The fact it took so long for someone to say they had, and people very quickly made it clear that they had not, made me wonder, that's all.Yes, it took a whole, what, three hours? And if they hadn't you'd still be shouting "LIAR LIAR" at the top of your voice.
I have also asked Mike Ellard directly if he ever reads this forum, and been told straight that "nobody in the Ceroc headoffice has time to bother with it".I'm coming round to his way of thinking because threads like this must make desperately unpleasant reading for anyone who works there.

[TiggsTours]

You're still doing it, TT - still having a bash.Yes, it took a whole, what, three hours? And if they hadn't you'd still be shouting "LIAR LIAR" at the top of your voice.I'm coming round to his way of thinking because threads like this must make desperately unpleasant reading for anyone who works there.
I didn't once shout LIAR, I said I do not like to be lied to, I said that I was interested to see if anyone had been included in the research, and I repeatedly said that I was happy to accept the research may have been conducted, and was interested to see if anyone was involved. You were the one who said they may not have conducted the research, and if they hadn't "who gives a *****", perhaps you ought to consider why exactly it was you allowed someone simply asking a general question as to whether or not anyone here had been involved in the research generated such a strong response inside yourself.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I didn't once shout LIAR, I said I do not like to be lied to,:whistle:

[David Bailey]

I have also asked Mike Ellard directly if he ever reads this forum, and been told straight that "nobody in the Ceroc headoffice has time to bother with it".
Thus proving that Mike Ellard knows what's important and what's irrelevant... :D

[TiggsTours]

:whistle:


Really? I'd say we have quite a large cross-section of their membership here on this forum, was anybody here asked for their views in this research?No suggestion here that I'm saying they lied, only a general question asking if anyone was involved.


Ceroc claim that the conducted research amongst a number of their members, I'd like to think that if they were doing proper market research, they ensured that they made sure it was a wide-spread approach, so being there are so many of us on here, who also happen to be members of Ceroc, that at least a few of us were approached.

I'm not saying we weren't only that I never heard of anyone being asked for their opinion, and I'm interested to see if anyone on here was.
Again, quite happy to accept that the research was carried out, and enquiring if anyone was involved. Nobody is being called a liar here.


What I'm saying is, there are quite a few active members here on this forum, if Ceroc were doing market research, where they asked a good cross-section of their members (not just all their mates at Ceroc London) for their feedback, don't you think its reasonable to expect that someone amongst the active members of this forum was asked?
Still no hint of me calling anyone a liar.


Maybe they didn’t approach anyone ?
Posed as a question, not a statement, and not by me.


So what if they didn't? Who gives a *****?


Ah! The first attack! The first person to actually suggest that they didn't carry out the research!


I don't want to pay my hard earned cash to a company that lie to me, and treat their customers like they are stupid, and their opinions do not matter.

Who does? Have I once mentioned in this sentence that this is what Ceroc have done?


If, however, they did conduct this market research, then between us all we must surely know of at least one person who was asked, that's the only reason I'm asking.

If Ceroc felt that they did not need to question their customers to know that gender balancing is important to them, that's fine, and completely understandable, I'd just like to think that they respect their customers enough to be honest about it.
Still only asking if anyone was involved, still not claiming anyone lied.


I am not saying that they have not conducted this research, all I'm saying is that I have seen no evidence that they have.
And very clearly stating that I am not calling anyone a liar, still just asking for an answer to my original question.


I personally do not like to be lied to. I am happy to accept I may not have been, and I was not looking for evidence that I was, but reactions I have had in the past from the organisation, and the lack of knowledge amongst ourselves of this research, leads me to feel I may have been misled.

And finally, only stating that I'm not convinced they carried out the research, but still quite clearly stating that I'm also not convinced that they didn't.

[stewart38]

You're still doing it, TT - still having a bash.Yes, it took a whole, what, three hours? And if they hadn't you'd still be shouting "LIAR LIAR" at the top of your voice.I'm coming round to his way of thinking because threads like this must make desperately unpleasant reading for anyone who works there.

Lets use another example

We contacted ceroc members as to wether we should keep our troops in Iraq

94% said we should , hence we are keeping there

A valid question is , who did they contact (not who give a sh**)

Martin has given an example where contact was made and that’s fine with me

[SilverFox]

Isn't there a Lindy forum somewhere out there that needs someone really annoying and bitter?

I bet your buddy Franco would never lie to you..... *splutter*

[bigdjiver]

The point that is often missed is that Ceroc works with a gender imbalance. The joining ratio of women to men is too high, but people drop out according proportionately to the enjoyment that they get from Ceroc. If the ratio suits men more than women, more women will drop out. If the ratio suits women more than men, more men will drop out. Market forces are at work. What we see is approaching a working balance, as far as classes are concerned, especially amongst the longer term membership.

An imbalance whilst dancing allows women a chance at leading, and allows them the opportunity to chat. They do both those things when there are even numbers, and it tends to deter men, especially the less confident ones.

An imbalance in a class means that the leaders get more training in the class, and ensures that the ladies are less bored and work harder when they do get their turn. It may be harsh, but it works.

Ceroc HQ have the power to make an informed decision on gender balancing. Simply query what proportion of men and what proportion of ladies from a gender balanced weekender event book others. If they could compare those ratios with open events so much the better.

[TiggsTours]

Lets use another example

We contacted ceroc members as to wether we should keep our troops in Iraq

94% said we should , hence we are keeping there

A valid question is , who did they contact (not who give a sh**)

Martin has given an example where contact was made and that’s fine with me

And me.

[TiggsTours]

Isn't there a Lindy forum somewhere out there that needs someone really annoying and bitter?

I bet your buddy Franco would never lie to you..... *splutter*

Franco? Sorry? How did his name come up? I think I just about say hello to him once a month on the door of Hipsters, if I go, and he's on the door.

I'm not being bitter, I never was, I asked a simple question, and ESG went all out on the attack with his first response to it. Oh, unless of course you're asking if he'd like to join a Lindy forum!

I'm on a few Lindy forums, people are much nicer to each other there. :flower:

[killingtime]

We contacted ceroc members as to wether we should keep our troops in Iraq

Maybe they did ask weighted questions like:

Do you think:
a) We should have balanced sexes at events?
or
b) I should take this sledgehammer and break your kneecaps?

99.5% of the 200 people surveyed said they'd prefer balanced sexes at events.

[stewart38]

Maybe they did ask weighted questions like:

Do you think:
a) We should have balanced sexes at events?
or
b) I should take this sledgehammer and break your kneecaps?

99.5% of the 200 people surveyed said they'd prefer balanced sexes at events.

Ill go ask, be back tomorrow with answers

[SteveK]

The point that is often missed is that Ceroc works with a gender imbalance. The joining ratio of women to men is too high, but people drop out according proportionately to the enjoyment that they get from Ceroc. If the ratio suits men more than women, more women will drop out. If the ratio suits women more than men, more men will drop out. Market forces are at work. What we see is approaching a working balance, as far as classes are concerned, especially amongst the longer term membership.



It doesn't feel right looking at the CerocScotland forum on a Friday afternoon at work and being the only person logged on..... the joys of being halfway round the world working in Australia for a bit.

Can I advise all women moaning about the gender imbalance; please come and join me out in Brisbane (Oz) please? The standard pattern here seems to be slightly "men over" - I'm still stuggling learning what to do with class rotation thing.... and if you persuade them out here a bit of Blues dancing would be worthwhile, that would be even better :grin:

[Cruella]

Franco? Sorry? How did his name come up? I think I just about say hello to him once a month on the door of Hipsters, if I go, and he's on the door.

I'm not being bitter, I never was, I asked a simple question, and ESG went all out on the attack with his first response to it. Oh, unless of course you're asking if he'd like to join a Lindy forum!

I'm on a few Lindy forums, people are much nicer to each other there. :flower:

I presumed SF was saying this to Stewart38 as it came directly after his post. :confused:
Either i'm wrong or you're paranoid or both and he was talking to himself again. :rolleyes:

[Russell Saxby]

I presumed SF was saying this to Stewart38 as it came directly after his post. :confused:
Either i'm wrong or you're paranoid or both and he was talking to himself again. :rolleyes:

nope that was def aimed at Tiggs

:worthy:

[stewart38]

I presumed SF was saying this to Stewart38 as it came directly after his post. :confused:
Either i'm wrong or you're paranoid :rolleyes:


was he :what: so i need to be paranoid now