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David Bailey
13th-November-2006, 01:26 PM
Looking at the cha cha demonstration on Strictly Come Dancing last Saturday, it stuck me how similar it looked to an MJ demonstration - in fact, I couldn't even tell it was cha cha for most of the dance.

Given that (unlike salsa or rumba) cha-cha tempo is similar-ish to MJ tempo, and that a lot of the time the "cha cha cha" bit seems to be missed out in showcases, do people think there's a lot of overlap between the two dances?

Would, therefore, "Latin Jive" classes and sessions be more accurately described as "Cha cha jive"? Or is Cha cha just seen as irredeemably naff?

Andreas
13th-November-2006, 01:42 PM
Haven't seen the demo you refer to (no TV) but in general, Cha Cha and also Samba tend to reasonably close to MJ, just nicer because of refined body action and a focus on that action as opposed to moves. The art of doing little and make it look fabulous.

I personally prefer watching Latin American presentations way over MJ.

El Salsero Gringo
13th-November-2006, 02:00 PM
Is this the time for a debate about dancing ceroc "on 1" and cha-cha "on 2"?

Simon r
13th-November-2006, 02:03 PM
move on nothing to see, again.

David Bailey
13th-November-2006, 02:07 PM
Is this the time for a debate about dancing ceroc "on 1" and cha-cha "on 2"?
Is it ever?

Seriously, that demo looked very MJ-esque to me - did anyone else see it?

Tessalicious
13th-November-2006, 02:33 PM
I don't think your point about 'Latin Jive' classes necessarily follows - sometimes they include tango-type steps (MJ ochos and lunges, for example), samba moves (laybacks) etc.

Also, there is a fundamental difficulty in the concept of 'Cha Cha Jive' - in Jive, by definition, the partners are moving in opposite directions (away, towards, away) for the majority of the movement where they are facing each other, while in Cha Cha most of the dance is done moving in the same direction.

That doesn't mean that the dances aren't similar in their way - Cha Cha has very similar energy to fast-ish Ceroc in a certain style, a similar proportion of hand/body lead (again, when MJ is danced in a certain way), and a similar potential for ostentatious flashy stuff. All the musicality in Cha Cha is to do with keeping the feet moving in the rhythm dictated by the dance, though, not in hitting breaks and matching mood.
Is this the time for a debate about dancing ceroc "on 1" and cha-cha "on 2"?Speaking of which I have a question for all the cha-cha-ing guys out there. There are quite a lot of guys that I am told are fabulous at cha cha so I dance it with them and find that they are leading cha-cha on 1 rather than 2. Do these guys (I'm not going to name names, but I'd be interested to see whether they know who they are) do this because they think it's right, because they don't know the difference, because they think I wouldn't be able to follow real cha-cha on 2, or for some other obscure reason?

David Bailey
13th-November-2006, 02:41 PM
Speaking of which I have a question for all the cha-cha-ing guys out there. There are quite a lot of guys that I am told are fabulous at cha cha so I dance it with them and find that they are leading cha-cha on 1 rather than 2. Do these guys (I'm not going to name names, but I'd be interested to see whether they know who they are) do this because they think it's right, because they don't know the difference, because they think I wouldn't be able to follow real cha-cha on 2, or for some other obscure reason?
I dance on 1. :blush:

I know, I'm evil and will go to heck, but I do it because it's easier, and because I'm lazy.

It's difficult enough to lead an MJ-er into cha-cha anyway, without having to wait for a beat, during which they may well decide to wander off and do their own thing (figuratively speaking). We found that problem when doing our mambo class at Cheshunt - pausing is difficult for most MJ-ers.

Also, as my brand of cha-cha is more like salsa with a bit of cha-cha thrown in - e.g. I've yet to see anyone else do cross-body leads in cha-cha - I'm more comfortable dancing on the 1. So shoot me.

I'd love to take proper cha-cha classes - I think it'd definitely help me - but I don't want to have to do 9 other ballroom dances just to learn that one. I mean, Ballroom Tango? :sick:

Msfab
13th-November-2006, 02:52 PM
Seriously, that demo looked very MJ-esque to me - did anyone else see it?

Yeap, I saw it. And if you missed it http://youtube.com/watch?v=qwDy6DVjCzo There were a couple of moves/patterns in there that Id say were like ones taught at MJ classes. Eg the Pretzel (by the Jordans), Backhander thing and an octopus.


I'd love to take proper cha-cha classes - I think it'd definitely help me - but I don't want to have to do 9 other ballroom dances just to learn that one. I mean, Ballroom Tango? :sick: Come to the ChaCha workshop that Cat and Lee doing on the 25th (I think)

David Bailey
13th-November-2006, 03:07 PM
Yeap, I saw it. And if you missed it http://youtube.com/watch?v=qwDy6DVjCzo
Excellent, thanks :clap:

OK, from a brief review, it is clearly cha-cha, I probably wasn't paying attention the first time round (possibly I was distracted by Ola's costume :yum: )

Anyway, I saw:

Walks (by all)
Cross-body leads (yay! It is OK to do that in cha-cha!), a return and a ladycomb - from James and Camilla
Lots of spins (Matthew and Nicole)
Yes, something that looked very pretzel-like from the Jordans (did I mention Ola's costune? :drool: )
Arm jive, wrapin and drop from Vincent and Flavia


Hmmm - in hindsight it's not as MJ-y as it first looked, though - but that was the first impression I got yesterday.


Come to the ChaCha workshop that Cat and Lee doing on the 25th (I think)
Got any details?

Beowulf
13th-November-2006, 03:08 PM
There was an intermediate class routine that we were taught in Aberdeen a month or so back that used cha cha footwork (Cha cha three step IIRC) as part of the MJ routine.

didn't feel too odd so I would assume that Cha cha and MJ are mutually compatible... (ish)

El Salsero Gringo
13th-November-2006, 03:18 PM
There was an intermediate class routine that we were taught in Aberdeen a month or so back that used cha cha footwork (Cha cha three step IIRC) as part of the MJ routine.

didn't feel too odd so I would assume that Cha cha and MJ are mutually compatible... (ish)Well they are if you dance the cha-cha-cha on the 3-and-4. A ballroom cha-cha has the cha-cha-cha on the 4-and-1. I don't really mind which beat anyone dances it on, but I wouldn't agree they're "compatible" unless that difference is taken into account.

latinlover
13th-November-2006, 03:34 PM
.Speaking of which I have a question for all the cha-cha-ing guys out there. There are quite a lot of guys that I am told are fabulous at cha cha so I dance it with them and find that they are leading cha-cha on 1 rather than 2. Do these guys (I'm not going to name names, but I'd be interested to see whether they know who they are) do this because they think it's right, because they don't know the difference, because they think I wouldn't be able to follow real cha-cha on 2, or for some other obscure reason?

yes yes it's me,
guilty as charged:whistle:
I do know the difference and it's because I have to try too hard to get started on the 2 and it just doesn't feel as natural to me as doing it on the 1
and anyway, who cares?
as long as it's in time with the dynamics of the music one way or another AND I can get my partner to do it, I'm happy.
This is the WONDERFUL thing about MJ you can put in everything including the kitchen sink, and who's to say what's right and what's wrong?
Who would have thought, 3 years ago we would have heard so much TANGO at an MJ night?
long may it continue, I say:clap:

Msfab
13th-November-2006, 04:16 PM
Got any details?

Take a look at the workshop page http://www.westcoastswing.co.uk/contact.html

David Bailey
13th-November-2006, 05:01 PM
Take a look at the workshop page http://www.westcoastswing.co.uk/contact.html
Thanks, but I think it's not really what I'm looking for - I think I can just about handle the basic patterns, although I'm probably deluding myself again. Mind you, I still haven't found what I'm looking for, as the song goes...

bigdjiver
13th-November-2006, 05:32 PM
Michaela has taught a couple of cha-cha moves as part of normal MJ classes, and I believe I recall other Ceroc Central teachers teaching some.

David Bailey
13th-November-2006, 05:33 PM
Michaela has taught a couple of cha-cha moves as part of normal MJ classes, and I believe I recall other Ceroc Central teachers teaching some.
There's the "open out" one, which I think is called the Butterfly in MJ? Something like that...

Miguel
13th-November-2006, 06:25 PM
Speaking of which I have a question for all the cha-cha-ing guys out there. There are quite a lot of guys that I am told are fabulous at cha cha so I dance it with them and find that they are leading cha-cha on 1 rather than 2. Do these guys (I'm not going to name names, but I'd be interested to see whether they know who they are) do this because they think it's right, because they don't know the difference, because they think I wouldn't be able to follow real cha-cha on 2, or for some other obscure reason?

At the Cha cha workshop (Camber) this weekend, the men were taught to step forward on 1. In the ballroom/latin scene this is an absolute no-no (you would fail your medal test!) but it's regarded OK socially. More info:
http://www.thedancestoreonline.com/ballroom-dance-instruction/cha-cha-free-lessons.htm

Seahorse
13th-November-2006, 07:28 PM
Cha-cha on '2' when I can remember though much easier on the '1' as discussed. Anyone tried synchopation in cha-cha? We had a go at this last week along with what I think was a cross body lead.

Andreas
13th-November-2006, 07:37 PM
Speaking of which I have a question for all the cha-cha-ing guys out there. There are quite a lot of guys that I am told are fabulous at cha cha so I dance it with them and find that they are leading cha-cha on 1 rather than 2. Do these guys (I'm not going to name names, but I'd be interested to see whether they know who they are) do this because they think it's right, because they don't know the difference, because they think I wouldn't be able to follow real cha-cha on 2, or for some other obscure reason?

Well, I can't dance it on one, to me it feels wrong. BUT, I can't say dancing it on one is wrong because it isn't. The real Cuban 'Street' Cha Cha is danced on 1. Dancing it on 2 is more of a definition established in Europe for Ballroom references. There is also an increasing number of Salsa 'schools' that start teaching Cha Cha on 1. Back in the old days 'social' Cha Cha was often taught on 1 because it was easier to comprehend. So theoretically there should be a larger number of people who dance it on 1 than on 2. :flower: Doesn't change the fact that I prefer seeing it danced on 2. :na:

clevedonboy
13th-November-2006, 09:08 PM
Dancing on the "1" or the "2" "Cha Cha"" or "MJ" - we're really talking two diefferent dialects

The problem here with MJ is the "non recognition" of beats 2 & 4 (key beats in the latin dances) as each MJ beat is two musical beats

Cha Cha = familiarly 2 3 4&1 (quick quick cha cha cha) but you can count it as 1 2 3 4 & .The music "tells" you where the & is in most cha cha and that's the key to the dance but there are many tracks you feel are cha cha that you can get dragged into dancing 1 2&3 4 (as the rhythm is 1 2&3 4&)- does it matter? not in my book but obviously if you were dancing in a ballroom competition, it would

spindr
13th-November-2006, 09:08 PM
At the Cha cha workshop (Camber) this weekend, the men were taught to step forward on 1. In the ballroom/latin scene this is an absolute no-no (you would fail your medal test!) but it's regarded OK socially.
Not, if I did the same Cha cha workshop as you :)

The teachers explained at the start that one would normally take a side step on the one, but for the purposes of the (simplified) workshop they wouldn't complicate the steps by including it. However, when they counted the steps they called the forward/back on the 2/3 and the cha-cha-cha on the 4+1.

SpinDr

Zebra Woman
13th-November-2006, 09:53 PM
I am no expert at all.

I have no cha cha training whatsoever I have just adapted my salsa to become cha cha. Initially I could only dance cha cha on the 1, but certain (unnamed) people insisted that I dance on the 2 so I have adapted.

When dancing cha cha on the 1, I seem to remember it was very easy to flit between MJ and cha cha everything just flowed (except the cha cha bit didn't actually gel with the music :sick: ).

Cha cha on on the 2 was a different story - I spent some time struggling to set off on the two. TOP TIP use the 1 to take an invisible side step onto the left foot then you're ready to step back on the right (that was for the follower, opposite for the leader). Once I started on the two there was no turning back , now I find dancing on the 1 really wierd ( although I will tolerate it for a dance with DJ :respect: )

The transitions from MJ into cha cha on the 2 I think are harder but not too difficult - a truncated return, or any move with good connection resulting in a pause usually does the trick.

A few months ago I was going to start a thread on here about blended dances. Do we like them or not?

At the time I was loving the blend of tango and MJ but feeling frustrated with the blending of MJ and WCS. I hate the confusion about whether to step back on the one or come forward on the one.....:confused: I am still not convinced I like a blend of WCS and MJ. At the moment as I'm such a beginner I prefer a continuous WCS dance...unless it really is a very bad dance indeed :blush: .



In contrast I have to say I have always enjoyed the blending of cha cha and MJ. Love it, love it, LOVE IT! :D :D :D

Thank you - MikeyR :clap: , Andreas :clap: , DJ :clap: , KevF :clap: , RobD :clap: , ESG :clap: , Chef :clap:

My heroes :respect:


If any one else wants to to add themselves to my 'Cha Cha/MJ' list, please go ahead.

preferably counting:

'AND, 2, 3 cha, cha, cha'

ZW

(but really I'm not fussy, I'll take it on the 1 :innocent: )

ZW

Lynn
14th-November-2006, 12:06 AM
Re the cha cha on 1 and on 2 thing, I think I'm starting to get it. I can now hum a cha cha tune and switch from on 1 to on 2 and back again etc - not immediately, I have to pause, find the beat and jump in. (I really should do it to music because trying to hum the tune myself just adds something else into the mix to concentrate on and probably makes it harder.:rolleyes: ) Now I would like to be led more on 2 to see if I can follow on 2 for a whole track.

I've had lovely dances that have had been partly MJ and partly cha cha - but have clearly moved from one to the other at different points of the dance, not a hybrid.

David Bailey
14th-November-2006, 09:02 AM
There were and are big arguments in the salsa scene about the musical "validity" of dancing on 1 versus on 2 - most of which are just hot air, in my expert and swollen-headed opinion. Neither method is "better", they're both valid.

In "blending" terms, it's easier to jump striaght from MJ to Cha cha if you move on 1, but it's hardly challenging to pause a beat and then move.

I'm more naturally an "on 1" person anyway, but I'm trying to become comfortable on 2, as it's good practice.

El Salsero Gringo
14th-November-2006, 09:19 AM
There were and are big arguments in the salsa scene about the musical "validity" of dancing on 1 versus on 2 - most of which are just hot air, in my expert and swollen-headed opinion. Neither method is "better", they're both valid.That point is well made; but salsa tracks have a different percussion beat from cha-cha tracks so to carry it over I think you'd need to argue it out from scratch looking at the way a cha cha rhythm works.

Zebra Woman
14th-November-2006, 09:39 AM
That point is well made; but salsa tracks have a different percussion beat from cha-cha tracks so to carry it over I think you'd need to argue it out from scratch looking at the way a cha cha rhythm works.

Yes IMO it's much easier to stay in time with a cha cha track if you are doing a cha cha cha as you hear the cha cha cha in the music. Most satisfying :drool:

A problem track for me is 'Won't You Join Me For A Drink' by Lemon. In my experience if you start dancing on the 2 then later on when the cha cha cha accents kick in they don't line up with the cha cha cha of your feet :sick: . Is it just me? I find myself wanting to realign...

David Bailey
14th-November-2006, 10:19 AM
A problem track for me is 'Won't You Join Me For A Drink' by Lemon. In my experience if you start dancing on the 2 then later on when the cha cha cha accents kick in they don't line up with the cha cha cha of your feet :sick: . Is it just me? I find myself wanting to realign...
Spooky - that's exactly what I was thinking, our minds are becoming one... :what:

Ste
14th-November-2006, 10:27 AM
There are quite a lot of guys that I am told are fabulous at cha cha so I dance it with them and find that they are leading cha-cha on 1 rather than 2. Do these guys (I'm not going to name names, but I'd be interested to see whether they know who they are) do this because they think it's right, because they don't know the difference, because they think I wouldn't be able to follow real cha-cha on 2, or for some other obscure reason?


Personally, I believe that technically a pure cha will be danced on the 2.

However, it is easy to slide back into bad technique when you dance on the 1. That is what happened to me. I try to dance on the 2 but end up going on the one particualrly in more complex moves.

By the way, and sorry for digressing, can you convert rumba steps into salsa. I have done salsa and rumba and because I dno't do both all the time, I have become quite confused!

El Salsero Gringo
14th-November-2006, 10:32 AM
A problem track for me is 'Won't You Join Me For A Drink' by Lemon. In my experience if you start dancing on the 2 then later on when the cha cha cha accents kick in they don't line up with the cha cha cha of your feet :sick: . Is it just me? I find myself wanting to realign...That's true for several tracks (don't ask me for examples, I can't think of any off the top of my head) but I don't think the triple step is *supposed* to always be on the cha-cha-cha accents.

David Bailey
14th-November-2006, 10:34 AM
By the way, and sorry for digressing, can you convert rumba steps into salsa. I have done salsa and rumba and because I dno't do both all the time, I have become quite confused!
I don't see why not - same rhythm. Rumba could be defined as "very slow On 2 salsa", in a sense :)

It depends on the move, I assume - got any particular ones in mind.

Lynn
14th-November-2006, 12:16 PM
In my experience if you start dancing on the 2 then later on when the cha cha cha accents kick in they don't line up with the cha cha cha of your feet :sick: . Is it just me? I find myself wanting to realign...Yep. That's been my problem with trying to learn on 2, my natural inclination is often to dance on the 1 as thats what the music seems to be telling me to do. I have to consciously dance on the two, and yes, after some moves, maybe with a turn, if I don't watch them my feet will fall back into on 1 pattern on some tracks.

But I think I just need more practice, I've only ever done 1 class on 2 (now I think about it that's possibly the only cha cha class I have done at all) my learning has been by freestyle and I think I've more often been led on 1 by leads who know its a little easier for beginners perhaps. Must make sure I practice on 2 where I can.

MartinHarper
14th-November-2006, 12:35 PM
A problem track for me is 'Won't You Join Me For A Drink' by Lemon. In my experience if you start dancing on the 2 then later on when the cha cha cha accents kick in they don't line up with the cha cha cha of your feet :sick:

Interesting.
If you dance WCS to swing music, or dance Lindy, you'll find a similar effect. The standard rhythm in the music is "1 2&3 4&1", while the standard footwork is "1 2 3&4".

robd
14th-November-2006, 01:30 PM
I have been learning some basic cha cha as part of the beginner's ballroom course this term at Cambridge Dancer's Club. It's great fun though I struggle to transfer it to MJ. I had a hybrid dance at FL with ZW. No idea if were were on the 1 or 2 though :blush: I know in class we are taught it on the 2. Generally my problem with transferring this (and rumba :drool: ) to MJ is my inability to count myself in for these styles. I hope this will come with time. Occasionally there are also space constraints. I remember a good track for cha at Hipsters recently but I took one look around and thought it way too crowded to try :sad:

ducasi
14th-November-2006, 05:43 PM
In the few classes and workshops on ChaCha that I've done, it was always on 2. And I recall that in one or two, the first "1" was a "shift", where you changed your weight to the other leg. Gave you something to do with the first "1" that matched up more-or-less with all the others...

I've recently become much more aware of the "cha cha cha" in ChaCha music, and find dancing to it in strictly MJ terms a bit frustrating.

Maybe I need to back to those Latino Swing classes I did one of a few months back...

HelenB
14th-November-2006, 05:54 PM
I learnt cha-cha first before MJ so find it difficult to dance on the 1 as we were taught "on the 2" :blush:

Originally we were taught to start on the 4 with a "cha, cha, cha" (4 and 1, 2, 3) before the first back step (or forward for the menfolk). Then, as we progressed, we started with the shift in weight (or side step) on the 1.

As for the routine on SCD Saturday, it was definitely a cha cha to me :D As you get more advanced, you play round more with the breaks (just as in MJ). When there's a break, the move just after then looks snappier and therefore more flashy. Good dancers use this to their advantage to show control.

Miguel
28th-November-2006, 10:42 PM
At the Cha cha workshop (Camber) this weekend, the men were taught to step forward on 1.

Apologizes to Graham Fox for the above posting. I misunderstood his instructions. Graham taught the men to step forward on 2.

Best wishes, Mike