An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

[Andy McGregor]

I've posted this on the Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination thread. But I think it could do with its own thread.

I've just had a thought about 'independents'. Ceroc are independent too. They're just a very big one! Any organisation of 'independent' MJ organisers would, IMHO, fail if all all they were set up to do was defend against the biggest independent of them all. Of course, an organisation with many members would be better placed to defend against sharp practices from any source. But they would also need to be about more if they were to become a true dance organisation. Off the top of my head they'd also need to offer some of the following;

Teacher training
Teacher accreditation
A promise to customers of certain standards (kite marking for want of a better description)
Insurance
Advice on PPL, PRS and MCPS
Legal advice
A pool of experience
Fabulous parties at their annual conference

Any other ideas?

[David Bailey]

What would be the difference between this and the current LeRoc federation (http://www.leroc.org.uk/)?

Seems a bit redundant to propose setting up another federation doing the same sort of thing... :confused:

[Andy McGregor]

What would be the difference between this and the current LeRoc federation (http://www.leroc.org.uk/)?

Seems a bit redundant to propose setting up another federation doing the same sort of thing... :confused:Putting aside the whole going back on the left thing for a moment, the LeRoc Federation seems to be bogged down in ancient politics. Some of it seems to be about who originated Modern Jive but some of it is intelligible to anyone who's not part of the Federation - in other words, I don't understand it and don't feel the need to devote any of my time to things that are irrelevant.

The other thing is that the LeRoc Federation has been running for years and isn't really representing Modern Jive organisations. I've no real idea why, but it just isn't working and doesn't sound like an attractive proposition to me as an independent organiser.

Besides, if they were throwing fabulous parties we'd have been invited. Wouldn't we...

[Lynn]

Putting aside the whole going back on the left thing for a moment, the LeRoc Federation seems to be bogged down in ancient politics. And I suspect that not long after starting a new organisation there would be a strong liklihood it would get bogged down in new politics.

[Andy McGregor]

And I suspect that not long after starting a new organisation there would be a strong liklihood it would get bogged down in new politics.That's always a problem with any organisation, and not just in jive. Look at religion if you want to find ancient grudges :tears:

I think that democracy goes a long way to making an organisation forward looking - thinking about it, maybe some religions should try it :eek:

[David Bailey]

Putting aside the whole going back on the left thing for a moment, the LeRoc Federation seems to be bogged down in ancient politics. Some of it seems to be about who originated Modern Jive but some of it is intelligible to anyone who's not part of the Federation - in other words, I don't understand it and don't feel the need to devote any of my time to things that are irrelevant.
:confused: The site seems fairly straightforward to me - and much better than most franchisee sites or Ceroc.com.

Training - tick.
Event map / list - tick.
Dance Diary - tick.

What more do you want exactly?


The other thing is that the LeRoc Federation has been running for years and isn't really representing Modern Jive organisations. I've no real idea why, but it just isn't working and doesn't sound like an attractive proposition to me as an independent organiser.
Well, I notice that the "Jive Nxxxxn" site is a Leroc member - displays the logo proudly on the front page. So Simon clearly doesn't think it's worthless.

But what it sounds like you want is "A better leroc organisation", and it sounds like it'll be easier to improve the current one than set up a new one, or am I missing something? Otherwise, you'll just get a "People's Front Of Judea" situation.


Besides, if they were throwing fabulous parties we'd have been invited. Wouldn't we...
Dunno, I never get invited anywhere.

[El Salsero Gringo]

That's always a problem with any organisation, and not just in jive. Look at religion if you want to find ancient grudges :tears:

I think that democracy goes a long way to making an organisation forward looking - thinking about it, maybe some religions should try it :eek:I think you should run for Pope. Can I manage your campaign?

[David Franklin]

I think you should run for Pope. Can I manage your campaign?Sorry, but I think Barry has earned that position on the team. Maybe you could be one of the Papal Diplomats?

[Andy McGregor]

But what it sounds like you want is "A better leroc organisation", and it sounds like it'll be easier to improve the current one than set up a new one, or am I missing something? Otherwise, you'll just get a "People's Front Of Judea" situation.How do you think I know something about the LeRoc Fed? I looked into joining. I spoke with John Eastman, even met him. If the rest of the LeRoc Fed were like John I'd have no hesitation in joining. And it probably wouldn't need much improving if they all thought like John.

However, I also had a chat about it with a few other people. Members and non-members. I got an overwhelming impression of an organisation that had not moved forwards since 1995! Change? We did that once, people didn't like it!

[David Bailey]

How do you think I know something about the LeRoc Fed? I looked into joining. I spoke with John Eastman, even met him. If the rest of the LeRoc Fed were like John I'd have no hesitation in joining. And it probably wouldn't need much improving if they all thought like John.

However, I also had a chat about it with a few other people. Members and non-members. I got an overwhelming impression of an organisation that had not moved forwards since 1995! Change? We did that once, people didn't like it!
OK, but surely you'd want these people as members in any new organisation anyway?

So you'd still have to drag them kicking and screaming into the Century of the Fruitbat, wouldn't you? You'd still have to promote new working practices, to people who might be resistant, no matter what you called the organisation.

If so, why not work within an existing structure than go to the effort of creating a new one?

(I'm desperately trying to avoid a phrase containing words like "wheel", "the" and "re-inventing" here...)

[Lynn]

That's always a problem with any organisation, and not just in jive. Look at religion if you want to find ancient grudges :tears: Having been involved in both, religious debates are mild in comparison to dance politics!

I know its a problem with any organisation, and I know I've only been involved in the dance scene for 3 years, but the level of 'I don't like what X is doing I'm going to boycott their events/ban them/set up on my own' seems to be pretty high and there are some strong personalities on the scene. Any organisation taking on the task of trying to establish a 'common ground' will face several challenges, not least of which will be how to have strong leadership, while at the same time trying to avoid issues of 'history' of any personalities that might be involved in that leadership.

[Gadget]

DeJaVouz? Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva! (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4363) it was only 2 years ago you raised the same thing...

It was more to do with having a 'unified voice' to bully competition and event organisers, but I don'treally see what else a blanket MJDA would cover and how it would benifit any of the "independants" (inc. Ceroc)?? :confused:



This would only be of interest to those who have an interest in competitions. Even then, a vocal interest and/or a grumble about how existing competitions are run.
Of the number of MJers, how many actually compete? And of these, how many 'expect' better than they get? And how many of these think that their opinions should influence future events and other competions?

IMHO this would create an elite clique giving more voice to an already vocal minority.

What's wrong with just contacting the organisers and puting your views to them? Especially since most of the complaintives are experanced dancers who are known "on the scene" and who's opinions do actually hold some weight? What's wrong with organisers contacting other organisers or attending events to see what works and dosn't work so that they can apply it to their event?

[Will]

(I'm desperately trying to avoid a phrase containing words like "wheel", "the" and "re-inventing" here...)
You did better than me. I came right out with it!

[Lou]

So you'd still have to drag them kicking and screaming into the Century of the Fruitbat, wouldn't you? You'd still have to promote new working practices, to people who might be resistant, no matter what you called the organisation.
So what you're all saying is that we need is a democratic organisation with no leader, where we all think as one, and where the organisation would need to overcome futile resistance in order to assimilate the newcomers?

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/smiley/borg.gif™? :na:

[David Bailey]

So what you're all saying is that we need is a democratic organisation with no leader, where we all think as one, and where the organisation would need to overcome futile resistance in order to assimilate the newcomers?
Not me, guv - Andy is the one saying that LeRoc are a bunch of old women fuddy-duddies who can't even step back on the correct foot. :whistle:

I'm saying that we already have a "MJ federation", two if you count the MJDA as well, and creating a third is just, well, insane to the point of Python.

If there is a "problem" with LeRoc member attitudes (and I've no idea one way or the other), that's not the fault of LeRoc, that's a reflection of what lots of independent MJ organisers think.

So, again, the only way a new structure or organisation would avoid that, is if it doesn't include LeRoc organisers. And with no Ceroc, no Leroc - one wonders how inclusive this organisation would be... :rolleyes:

In other words - join LeRoc, Andy, that's what it's there for. And if you want change, promote it. I'm sure LeRoc Federation will welcome input and assistance with open arms.

[El Salsero Gringo]

In other words - join LeRoc, Andy, that's what it's there for. And if you want change, promote it. I'm sure LeRoc Federation will welcome input and assistance with open arms.You're missing the point. Andy just wants to be a founder member of something.

[Andy McGregor]

Having been involved in both, religious debates are mild in comparison to dance politics! I think it depends on your religion. I get the impression that a huge amount of terrorism in the world is part of a religious debate that's got out of hand. Ask Salman Rushdie...

[Lou]

Not me, guv - Andy is the one saying that LeRoc are a bunch of old women fuddy-duddies who blah blah blah blah....

Have you forgotten already that there is no such thing as a "LeRoc" organisation? ;) You do remember that many LeRoc classes are independent organisations, don't you, and that "LeRoc" is a generic term for the dance? :whistle: Andy's talking about the LeRoc Federation. :D A voluntary* organisation that MJ organisers & teachers can join for various benefits. If not - I'm sure Barry & I can remind you.... :rofl:

And John's already said that Andy can step back on any foot he pleases. I agree with ESG - Andy just wants to be Queen (ooops! I mean Founder) of something. :whistle:


*Voluntary = not mandatory, which means LeRoc teachers & organisers don't have to join.

[David Bailey]

Have you forgotten already that there is no such thing as a "LeRoc" organisation? ;) You do remember that many LeRoc classes are independent organisations, don't you, and that "LeRoc" is a generic term for the dance?
Vaguely, but I didn't actually care enough to remember about it. I remember they had some silly ideas about footwork, that's about it.

Who are you again?

[Andy McGregor]

Not me, guv - Andy is the one saying that LeRoc are a bunch of old women fuddy-duddies who can't even step back on the correct foot. :whistle:

-snip-

In other words - join LeRoc, Andy, that's what it's there for. And if you want change, promote it. I'm sure LeRoc Federation will welcome input and assistance with open arms.I think that's a significant part of it. I couldn't join a dance organisation that got its technique so incredibly wrong that they teach their students to step back with the wrong foot. How would I pass their exam? :tears: Would I want to pass an exam when I disagreed with the basic tecnique? A couple of the people I know who've recently taken the exam told me that they had to learn to dance differently to pass the exam and then go back to dancing properly afterwards :confused:

Maybe the danced differently in the mid-nineties. I know I did :blush:

And, why would I want to join the LeRoc Federation when they're mostly based in Bristol?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Have you forgotten already that there is no such thing as a "LeRoc" organisation? ;) You do remember that many LeRoc classes are independent organisations, don't you, and that "LeRoc" is a generic term for the dance? :whistle: Andy's talking about the LeRoc Federation. :D A voluntary* organisation that MJ organisers & teachers can join for various benefits. If not - I'm sure Barry & I can remind you.... :rofl:

And John's already said that Andy can step back on any foot he pleases. I agree with ESG - Andy just wants to be Queen (ooops! I mean Founder) of something. :whistle:


*Voluntary = not mandatory, which means LeRoc teachers & organisers don't have to join.Hilarious. Someone misrepresents an organisation that you're part of, and suddenly you get snippy about it. How I love it when the boot is on the other foot.

[Andy McGregor]

And John's already said that Andy can step back on any foot he pleases. I agree with ESG - Andy just wants to be Queen (ooops! I mean Founder) of something. :whistle:I get all the glory I crave standing on-stage, and even more good feelings watching the teachers I've taught.

On the subject of footwork, the LeRoc trained teachers I spoke with recently said that they were taught to go back with the left foot when the right hand is compressed. In my experience, when you demonstrate a move on-stage the whole class will copy what you do.This means there will be whole groups of dancers getting it wrong.

I am arrogant, but I'm not so arrogant I'd join an organisation to tell them just how wrong they are. I can do that on here :devil:

[Andy McGregor]

How I love it when the boot is on the other foot.Maybe that's why the're moving the wrong foot. It's got the right boot on it :whistle:

[David Bailey]

I think that's a significant part of it. I couldn't join a dance organisation that got its technique so incredibly wrong that they teach their students to step back with the wrong foot. How would I pass their exam?
You'd say "The follower steps back on the foot led by the leader", or possibly "Learn a proper dance like AT then you'll know what you're talking about".

That should go down well, I'm sure.


And, why would I want to join the LeRoc Federation when they're mostly based in Bristol?
So what you're saying is, you want is an association of independent dance organisers, as long as they're all based near you? :rolleyes:

(Hell, I'm going to have to admit ESG was right at this rate :eek: )

Seriously, Andy, no-one else seems to think yet another dance organisation is needed. A Ceroc teacher, a LeRoc teacher, and several mere dancers all agree on this - possibly the first time ever. So is that maybe a hint of some kind?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Seriously, Andy, no-one else seems to think yet another dance organisation is needed. A Ceroc teacher, a LeRoc teacher, and several mere dancers all agree on this - possibly the first time ever. So is that maybe a hint of some kind?It's a hint for Andy to take a leaf out of the ID-cards issue song-book and step up the campaign!

[Lynn]

Seriously, Andy, no-one else seems to think yet another dance organisation is needed. A Ceroc teacher, a LeRoc teacher, and several mere dancers all agree on this - possibly the first time ever. So is that maybe a hint of some kind?Well he's got them agreeing something already - common ground - good start for the the new organisation. OK - slight flaw in that what they are agreeing about is the lack of need for said organisation but I'm sure that could be overcome.

[David Bailey]

It's a hint for Andy to take a leaf out of the ID-cards issue song-book and step up the campaign!
:rofl:
I guess - great revolutionaries by definition are always in the minority at the time.

Andy "Lenin" McGregor, has a certain ring to it. Maybe he should be smuggled into Ceroc HQ in a goods train or something... :whistle:

[El Salsero Gringo]

A Ceroc teacher, a LeRoc teacher, and several mere dancers all agree on thisHey, I hope you didn't mean me. I haven't said it would be a good or a bad idea, and I certainly don't want to get a reputation for agreeing with anyone on anything.

[David Bailey]

Hey, I hope you didn't mean me. I haven't said it would be a good or a bad idea, and I certainly don't want to get a reputation for agreeing with anyone on anything.
I think you're safe.

So, you do think it's a good idea? :eek:

[Andy McGregor]

Seriously, Andy, no-one else seems to think yet another dance organisation is needed. A Ceroc teacher, a LeRoc teacher, and several mere dancers all agree on this - possibly the first time ever. So is that maybe a hint of some kind?As far as I can make out, 2 people don't like the idea, DJ and Lou.

I'm still undecided. But it's useful to hear your objections :wink:

[Lou]

Hilarious. Someone misrepresents an organisation that you're part of ...
:D I'm a member of an organisation that doesn't exist!


OK - slight flaw in that what they are agreeing about is the lack of need for said organisation but I'm sure that could be overcome.
ESG'd have no problem with that. See above. :wink:


....and suddenly you get snippy about it. **snip**.
I reserve my right to get "snippy" if it means I get to snip the boring bits out of people's posts. :na:


On the subject of footwork, the LeRoc trained teachers I spoke with recently said that they were taught to go back with the left foot when the right hand is compressed.
I think you've misunderstood, slightly. Presuming you're talking about the follower's steps in your example above, no one is taught that they "step back on the left foot when the right hand is compressed". The choice of foot for the step back is a combination of the direction of travel & the lead. It does work, and it's not only used in LeRoc, but in Australian Ceroc too.

As in our numerous posts about the subject of footwork, there are pros & cons in all of it.

I know that John Eastman has said to you on a number of occasions that, when it comes to their exams, the Federation is flexible about things such as taught footwork. I believe that they're more interested in marking teaching ability, and the fact that a consistent approach is taught (regardless of which one you choose).

[Lou]

As far as I can make out, 2 people don't like the idea, DJ and Lou.
Nah - I couldn't care less. I just think you're basing the need for a new organisation on flawed assumptions. :)

[El Salsero Gringo]

:D I'm a member of an organisation that doesn't exist!Be positive - at least you found one prepared to have you as a member.

[David Bailey]

As far as I can make out, 2 people don't like the idea, DJ and Lou.

I'm still undecided. But it's useful to hear your objections :wink:
I'm more interested in why you don't take the obvious step of joining LeRoc (OK, OK, the "LeRoc Federation", whatever), instead of creating another organisation.

Firstly it was "They're all fuddy-duddies, not fit for modern life".
Then it was "Ah, they step back on the wrong foot".
What's next - their dress sense?

[Lou]

Firstly it was "They're all fuddy-duddies, not fit for modern life".
Except Andy then admitted that only some of them were fuddy-duddy...

Then it was "Ah, they step back on the wrong foot".
And he was told he could step back on any foot he wanted....

What's next - their dress sense?
I've seen men in skirts at several (LeRoc-Federation-affiliated) ElmgroveLeRoc events before, if that helps Andy?

[MartinHarper]

If anyone is feeling a sense of Deja Vu, it's because we had this discussion back in Jan 2005: The Need for an INDEPENDENT Teacher Training Organisation (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3364).

Ahh, Gordon J Pownall. Where is he now?
Anyway, based on that thread, Andy's next objection will be:


When I contacted LeRoc I was told it would cost me £190 per person to do the exam!

Effervescent!

[David Bailey]

Anyway, based on that thread, Andy's next objection will be:


When I contacted LeRoc I was told it would cost me £190 per person to do the exam!

Effervescent!
Just £190 to train a teacher?

Blimey, bargain - CTA costs thousands doesn't it?

Actually, I think £190 is way too lttle for any proper training - it should be much more than that IMO.

[MartinHarper]

Just £190 to train a teacher?

No, silly. To take the exam.

[Andy McGregor]

Just £190 to train a teacher?

Blimey, bargain - CTA costs thousands doesn't it?

Actually, I think £190 is way too lttle for any proper training - it should be much more than that IMO.Get with the programme. Training is really expensive and really hard. IMHO the exam is of little value. You are judged each time you put on your head-mike. And the biggest judges are, of course, the students in your class. If they keep coming back for more you've passed their exam.

[David Bailey]

Get with the programme. Training is really expensive and really hard. IMHO the exam is of little value. You are judged each time you put on your head-mike. And the biggest judges are, of course, the students in your class. If they keep coming back for more you've passed their exam.
Oh good, that's a relief.

So, let's not bother assessing teachers at all, then, if that's the only criterion :rolleyes:

[Andy McGregor]

Oh good, that's a relief.

So, let's not bother assessing teachers at all, then, if that's the only criterion :rolleyes:I did say the exam. I've known people who've passed the LeRoc exam who can kill a class in 6 weeks. And I've seen other graduates build a fabulously successful night. So, IMHO, the exam makes no difference in the real world.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Actually, I think £190 is way too lttle for any proper training - it should be much more than that IMO.Oh, I agree. I'll arrange some training for you. What subject, and what's your budget?

[David Bailey]

I did say the exam. I've known people who've passed the LeRoc exam who can kill a class in 6 weeks. And I've seen other graduates build a fabulously successful night. So, IMHO, the exam makes no difference in the real world.
So, getting back on-topic, is that why you don't want to join then? :devil:

(Martin, you were right :worthy: - you got tomorrow's Lottery numbers on you?)


Oh, I agree. I'll arrange some training for you. What subject, and what's your budget?
Spanish for Tango dancers. 50p. Go for it.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Spanish for Tango dancers. 50p. Go for it.¿que? ¡non!

[Andy McGregor]

And John's already said that Andy can step back on any foot he pleases. I agree with ESG - Andy just wants to be Queen (ooops! I mean Founder) of something. :whistle: Stepping back on any foot is worse than stepping back on the correct one - the correct one being the one that is led. You'd never know what your partner was going to do. And, on the subject of being a Queen, I've already come second as the Forum Queen in the first Forum Awards. That makes me a Princess - altogether younger, slimmer, prettier and better dressed than a Queen:innocent: