Should we have 'critique' class in MJ/Ceroc ?

[Caro]

A concept that is very popular in WCS, especially in the US, is the one of critique class.

It's a class where basically dancer A volunteers to dance a track with another (volunteering) dancer B, while other attendees and teachers are observing; and at the end of the track the teacher(s) constructively 'critique' dancer A on the main 2 (or so) things he/she needs to work on to improve his/her dancing.
Then dancer B dances with volunteer C and gets critized and so on (so the critique is never about a couple dancing together).

Now I might be wrong but this doesn't seem to be done in MJ/Ceroc (at least I have never seen or heard of it).

Could that be a good idea?

Personally I think so for the following reasons:
- it's about volunteering so only the people interested in receiving feedback will have some
- it's focused on you and where you are in your dancing journey, so you can target your efforts where they are the most needed for you to improve
- also by looking at other dancers of various levels and listening to their critique it usually helps you to
> grasp or become aware of some concepts that would be much further ahead in your progression path
> understand other's people defaults, like sometimes when you see somebody dance and you can't exactly point out what they are doing wrong ...
> makes you think whether or not you might be guilty of the same defaults.

Now it can be frustrating if it's a big class and you want to volunteer but don't have time to...
Also if you receive some very unexpected feedback and you're not ready for it, the experience can be harsh...
Lastly eventhough your partner's level shouldn't really matter, you might be frustrated by the volunteering aspect of it and might want to choose your partner while you're being critised.

But another question if we think about that in a ceroc framework, is when to do it?
I don't think a normal weekly class is appropriate (unless the venue is big enough to divide the intermediate class - but then you might create that 'elite' feeling that ceroc doesn't promote), may be a workshop (but would enough people sign up especially for that)?
It looks like the best option would be to do that as a class before a freestyle party: so that only the people interested turn up early enough to participate, and it doesn't impact people who just want to dance socially.

So, do you think this is something MJ/Ceroc would benefit in organising?
Would it benefit us, the punters?

[Andy McGregor]

So, do you think this is something MJ/Ceroc would benefit in organising?
Would it benefit us, the punters?I've been thinking along these lines for a while now. I see this as a masterclass situation where the observers get almost as much from the situation as the subjects - but without the potential embarassment!

We do something like this in our teacher's training and even then you need to be very tactful when delivering coaching and suggestions for change. I even had one of the guys sticking up for the teacher and saying I shouldn't be so critical as she was doing her best!

IMHO this critique wouldn't go down well on a normal night as it's not part of the formula. We've been considering setting up a special night with masterclasses for volunteers. But, even then, it's the potential for people to have their feelings hurt that's putting me off.

[El Salsero Gringo]

But, even then, it's the potential for people to have their feelings hurt that's putting me off.The phrase the comes to my mind is "will the last one quitting the class please turn out the lights".

[David Bailey]

I'm a big fan of providing feedback.

But in the MJ culture as it is now, It's almost certainly unworkable except in a specialist scenario, and probably involving very experienced dancers who can take criticism.

Effectively, that's what you get from private lessons, so people who want that sort of feedback are probably getting privates anyway.

[Gav]

Yes, yes, yes, yes!!!! :clap:

I've been pestering our local mob to see if they'd do it on an individual basis, but they're not interested, even if they get to charge more for it. :sad:

If it's done on an optional basis, rather than as part of a class, then you should only get the people that are strong enough to accept criticism doing it.

[David Franklin]

The phrase the comes to my mind is "will the last one quitting the class please turn out the lights".I prefer:

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!

I agree that I can't really see it working here currently.

I think one problem is it's "too late" for a lot of people. By the time they would consider for such a class, they've probably had over a year of doing the intermediate class with little or no difficulty. They're starting to feel pretty good about their dancing, and they aren't used to, or expecting criticism. So the idea of such a critique is more than a little daunting. Whereas something similar during the early months, (when they don't actually think they can dance) might actually be a little easier to take, and then they would be more used to it.

The other thing I think might work is for the teacher to spend half an hour or so doing 'mini-privates' (only half-an-hour so as to not take up all the freestyle time). You'd pay £10 or so to book a 10-minute slot and get some feedback and advice. All reasonably low key and therefore non-intimidating, but it would give you an idea of where you were and what you needed to work on. It would also give you an idea of what a full private lesson would be like, if you wanted to go that route. (Again - I think people find the idea of a whole hour spent one-on-one correcting their dancing more than a little intimidating. So a taster first might be a good marketing ploy).

[El Salsero Gringo]

The other thing I think might work is for the teacher to spend half an hour or so doing 'mini-privates' (only half-an-hour so as to not take up all the freestyle time). It's a lovely idea, but that's time when the teacher ought to be out dancing with all and sundry; 30 minutes taken away from that time is a lot of dances.

[MartinHarper]

I went to a Lindy class recently that was advertised with a warning that there might be some personal feedback and suchlike, though not a "critique class" in the sense Caro describes. One thing the teacher did is insist that there be no other criticism during the class. "No nagging".


maybe a workshop (but would enough people sign up especially for that)?

Probably not. One of the problems with MJ is that, because it's taught with no emphasis on technique, people tend to think that technique is unimportant, or something you only need to learn once.

[Andy McGregor]

It's a lovely idea, but that's time when the teacher ought to be out dancing with all and sundry; 30 minutes taken away from that time is a lot of dances.And the DJ wouldn't have anyone to chat with :wink:

[David Franklin]

It's a lovely idea, but that's time when the teacher ought to be out dancing with all and sundry; 30 minutes taken away from that time is a lot of dances.I'm unconvinced this is a show stopper. I know this goes against many opinions, but from my perspective, I don't think that I ever thought it was a big deal whether or not the teacher "worked the floor". Visibly sloping off immediately after the class is one thing - it certainly gives an impression their heart isn't really in it. But taking half an hour out to help dancers wouldn't have impaired my enjoyment of the evening.

Fact of the matter is, I learned more from all the more experienced punters I danced with than I ever did dancing freestyle with the teachers.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Fact of the matter is, I learned more from all the more experienced punters I danced with than I ever did dancing freestyle with the teachers.I agree that it's dubious how much people learn from dancing with the teacher, but my experience is that if new members see that the teacher makes an effort to dance with everyone - including them - that sets a good tone for the night. It might be different at a long-established venue; but my experience is limited to the venue I teach at, which I started. I know that for better or worse, eyes are on me and what I do right up until I call the last dance.

[MartinHarper]

Perhaps something to think about doing before the class starts, or after it ends, or maybe only look at a single 10 min session /week to start with, until demand settles down.

[David Franklin]

It might be different at a long-established venue; but my experience is limited to the venue I teach at, which I started. Yeah, I agree it would be harder at a new venue. In London, I'd only do it at a couple of the established venues.


I know that for better or worse, eyes are on me and what I do right up until I call the last dance.But again, there's a big difference between:

"ESG didn't dance with all the beginners because he was teaching"

and

"ESG didn't dance with all the beginners because he was too busy chatting up the barmaid / showing off with his favourites / left the moment the class finished to watch a re-run of Coronation Street"


Perhaps something to think about doing before the class starts, or after it ends, or maybe only look at a single 10 min session /week to start with, until demand settles down.Possible - the other option is to only do it monthly. One of the reasons for making it at least half an hour is that it's actually making a statement that "This is one of the services Ceroc offer - and everyone should consider doing it". If it's one 10 minute session 'snuck' in at the beginning or end, then it almost becomes a secret.

[El Salsero Gringo]

But again, there's a big difference between:

"ESG didn't dance with all the beginners because he was teaching"
and
"ESG didn't dance with all the beginners because he was too busy chatting up the barmaid / showing off with his favourites / left the moment the class finished to watch a re-run of Coronation Street"I acknowledge that, but I think that's a straw man, as you might say. The crucial difference is between "The teacher got a chance to dance with loads of people" and "The teacher was stuck in a corner with the same person for 30 minutes and I didn't get a chance to dance with him/her." It's not the setting of a bad impression that has to be avoided - it's the opportunity to set a good one that must be seized.
Possible - the other option is to only do it monthly. One of the reasons for making it at least half an hour is that it's actually making a statement that "This is one of the services Ceroc offer - and everyone should consider doing it". If it's one 10 minute session 'snuck' in at the beginning or end, then it almost becomes a secret.I fear that to make any useful difference to anyone, it would have to be offered more often than once per month. That's only 12 lessons (total) per year, I can't see it making much impact either on individuals who would likely need to wait 6 months for a slot. I love the idea, but whichever way I go through it, it comes down to the fact that there's not enough time in one evening to get it to work. I hope someone will try it though and prove me wrong!

[David Franklin]

I acknowledge that, but I think that's a straw man, as you might say. The crucial difference is between "The teacher got a chance to dance with loads of people" and "The teacher was stuck in a corner with the same person for 30 minutes and I didn't get a chance to dance with him/her." Well, 'stuck in a corner' isn't going to work well for teaching anyhow (even if the student isn't called Baby). But however you do it, it's important to make it clear that "Between 9:30-10:00 ESG will be taking privates. Please see the venue manager if you want to book a slot". In which case people know you're not skiving, you're working. I don't see it as any different from when BillCo would disappear into a back room to teach an advanced class at the Jive Bar.

As far as dancing with all the beginners - it still gives you an hour to do that. Which is a darn sight more time than most teachers seem to spend with the beginners...


I fear that to make any useful difference to anyone, it would have to be offered more often than once per month. That's only 12 lessons (total) per year, No, I meant 3 x 10 minute slots, once a month (i.e. 36 lessons). Obviously, if there's a big waiting list, you could increase frequency or number of slots - I was mainly arguing that going down to a single 10 minute slot per week wasn't ideal.

But I concede that in a fledgling venue (which really does rely on the teacher being around most of the time), there might not be any way of getting the numbers to work.

[TheTramp]

But I concede that in a fledgling venue (which really does rely on the teacher being around most of the time), there might not be any way of getting the numbers to work.

2nd teacher?

If you can do 6*10 minute private 'lessons', at £10 each. That's £60, which might make it worth another teacher coming along (if they weren't already).

Now, if you could just guarantee the number of people booking them, and had space to do them, it might work!

[El Salsero Gringo]

2nd teacher?

If you can do 6*10 minute private 'lessons', at £10 each. That's £60, which might make it worth another teacher coming along (if they weren't already).

Now, if you could just guarantee the number of people booking them, and had space to do them, it might work!A second teacher would work. *But* the world is not awash with Ceroc teachers, most of whom (discussed elsewhere) don't do it for the money anyway. It's another evening a week given up, for what reward? And I reckon while people will pay for a private lesson with their regular teacher (who's earned the reputation by teaching from the stage every week) would that work with someone who just comes to do private lessons?

Not insuperable problems, granted, but I don't see it as straighforward.

[Caro]

I see this as a masterclass situation where the observers get almost as much from the situation as the subjects


indeed, that's the point



We've been considering setting up a special night with masterclasses for volunteers. But, even then, it's the potential for people to have their feelings hurt that's putting me off.

People have volunteered, so that shouldn't be an issue unless the teacher(s) are as tactful as a sledgehammer. :rolleyes:



I think one problem is it's "too late" for a lot of people. By the time they would consider for such a class, they've probably had over a year of doing the intermediate class with little or no difficulty. They're starting to feel pretty good about their dancing, and they aren't used to, or expecting criticism. So the idea of such a critique is more than a little daunting. Whereas something similar during the early months, (when they don't actually think they can dance) might actually be a little easier to take, and then they would be more used to it.

Good point. I didn't want to go initially in the debate of 'is technique important in MJ' but it seems that one of the reasons WCS critique classes are so popular is that everyone is well aware of the technique required behind the dance. Now I don't want to be a snooty arrogant westie but I don;t think those critique classes in MJ are for everyone, hence may not be suitable for a normal class, as I have said earlier.



The other thing I think might work is for the teacher to spend half an hour or so doing 'mini-privates' (only half-an-hour so as to not take up all the freestyle time). You'd pay £10 or so to book a 10-minute slot and get some feedback and advice. All reasonably low key and therefore non-intimidating, but it would give you an idea of where you were and what you needed to work on.

I like that idea, although you loose the benefit of the 'masterclass'. Could we make those mini private (reasonably) open for other people to watch?

As for the frequency, well it just has to match the demand, but I can imagine that once a week / a fortnight should work.


Now there's another thing I didn't touch on in my first post, but I have to say that for me who is going to critize is also important... I need to feel some sort of admiration/respect for the teacher (whether it is for his/her style, or technique), and the most admiration I feel for them, the more likely I am to sign up for a critique class with them...

[David Franklin]

People have volunteered, so that shouldn't be an issue unless the teacher(s) are as tactful as a sledgehammer. :rolleyes: Yeah, but you think the average punter at a MJ night would volunteer? I don't.


Good point. I didn't want to go initially in the debate of 'is technique important in MJ' but it seems that one of the reasons WCS critique classes are so popular is that everyone is well aware of the technique required behind the dance. Now I don't want to be a snooty arrogant westie but I don;t think those critique classes in MJ are for everyone, hence may not be suitable for a normal class, as I have said earlier. Possibly, but my main point was that people in MJ aren't "trained" to deal with criticism; instead they grow up on a diet of intermediate classes that leave them expecting to be able to do everything in the class comfortably. It's not that they think their technique is perfect - they know it isn't, because they know they've never really been taught it. So when you go to them and say "How'd you like to dance in front of the class and I'll explain to everyone what you're doing wrong" they are terrified. It's not just the fear of being up in front of everyone, but because they've never really had any critique, they have no idea what to expect, what the teacher is going to pick up on, and so on. Dunno about you, but I think that's scary as hell.


I like that idea, although you loose the benefit of the 'masterclass'. Could we make those mini private (reasonably) open for other people to watch?Well, the whole point of my suggestion was to provide an easy introduction to being criticised, in a low-key, private, environment. So in that context, I don't see making them open to viewers as a great plan. Once you've got a few people comfortable with the concept, you could maybe do a semi-public class, where (a) other people will see what to expect, and (b) they will see lots of other people doing it first. Which I think will make your idea a much easier sell.


Now there's another thing I didn't touch on in my first post, but I have to say that for me who is going to critize is also important... I need to feel some sort of admiration/respect for the teacher (whether it is for his/her style, or technique), and the most admiration I feel for them, the more likely I am to sign up for a critique class with them...Well, yes. But the typical punter only really knows their venue teacher, or possibly 2 or 3 others. It's only really a small elite who are going to be particularly fussy, and to some extent they are capable of working out a solution (privates, group workshop, etc.) by themselves. Whereas I think it would be a big step forwards if everyone considered one-on-one feedback as part of the norm.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think it would be an interesting format for an afternoon workshop.

[MartinHarper]

One of the reasons WCS critique classes are so popular is that everyone is well aware of the technique required behind the dance.

There also seems to be more agreement about what is good WCS technique, compared to MJ. It's possible I'm just not exposed to the religious wars within WCS.

[Caro]

Possibly, but my main point was that people in MJ aren't "trained" to deal with criticism; instead they grow up on a diet of intermediate classes that leave them expecting to be able to do everything in the class comfortably. It's not that they think their technique is perfect - they know it isn't, because they know they've never really been taught it. So when you go to them and say "How'd you like to dance in front of the class and I'll explain to everyone what you're doing wrong" they are terrified. It's not just the fear of being up in front of everyone, but because they've never really had any critique, they have no idea what to expect, what the teacher is going to pick up on, and so on. Dunno about you, but I think that's scary as hell.
.

yeah, I recognise that's a fair point... personally I am okay with that but I've always been a big fan of constructive feedback so I might be biaised...

TFYAP? :whistle: :wink:



Well, the whole point of my suggestion was to provide an easy introduction to being criticised, in a low-key, private, environment. So in that context, I don't see making them open to viewers as a great plan. Once you've got a few people comfortable with the concept, you could maybe do a semi-public class, where (a) other people will see what to expect, and (b) they will see lots of other people doing it first. Which I think will make your idea a much easier sell.


I reckon that's probably a good start indeed. Then once this is fairly established, moving onto masterclass... or may be running them only during week-end workshops? (weekenders such as Southport or Ceroc stuff or even more 'local' things such as BFG, Beach Ballroom week-ends in Scotland?)



Well, yes. But the typical punter only really knows their venue teacher, or possibly 2 or 3 others. It's only really a small elite who are going to be particularly fussy, and to some extent they are capable of working out a solution (privates, group workshop, etc.) by themselves. Whereas I think it would be a big step forwards if everyone considered one-on-one feedback as part of the norm.

again, good point, may be I tend to think too much from my own frame of reference...

I'm not that keen on polls but may be we could try and see...

[Gav]

There also seems to be more agreement about what is good WCS technique, compared to MJ. It's possible I'm just not exposed to the religious wars within WCS.

HAHA, now you're in danger of opening up that whole "is bouncing a style or a bad habit" discussion again! not to mention slotted vs travelling, little steps vs big steps...

But it's a fair point, if no-one can agree what's good and what's bad, how can you critique?

If my local teacher told me (as one lady did recently), very good, now you just need to introduce a little bounce into your style, I'd probably want my money back!

[Gadget]

I seem to remember suggesting this sort of thing a couple of times - an informal 'workshop' type thing where people just turn up, dance and help each other out - can be critism, explinations of stuff, ask how to do a move better, ask how someone else does a move... etc.
The point being that it's not a "dance" and it's not a structured "workshop"... I thought a T-Dance would be almst perfect for it.

[Gav]

I seem to remember suggesting this sort of thing a couple of times - an informal 'workshop' type thing where people just turn up, dance and help each other out - can be critism, explinations of stuff, ask how to do a move better, ask how someone else does a move... etc.
The point being that it's not a "dance" and it's not a structured "workshop"... I thought a T-Dance would be almst perfect for it.

A dancer's peer review?

with suggestions and guidance from other dancers as opposed to "this is wrong and this is right, because I am god"

Sounds like a good idea to me.

and it's not as simple as asking someone for criticism at your usual freestyle. How many timeshave you asked and heard "yeh, everything was fine"? I'm not sure about dancing but in document review terms, that means either I can't be @rsed taking the time to tell you, or if I tell you you might bite my head off.

[spindr]

I think that to make it fair it should be a complete "360 review".
Which means that everyone gets reviewed, including any "teachers".

SpinDr

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think that to make it fair it should be a complete "360 review".
Which means that everyone gets reviewed, including any "teachers".

SpinDrIt's a brave and egoless teacher, or a foolhardy one, who will sign up for that.

[Yogi_Bear]

Possibly, but my main point was that people in MJ aren't "trained" to deal with criticism; instead they grow up on a diet of intermediate classes that leave them expecting to be able to do everything in the class comfortably. It's not that they think their technique is perfect - they know it isn't, because they know they've never really been taught it. So when you go to them and say "How'd you like to dance in front of the class and I'll explain to everyone what you're doing wrong" they are terrified. It's not just the fear of being up in front of everyone, but because they've never really had any critique, they have no idea what to expect, what the teacher is going to pick up on, and so on. Dunno about you, but I think that's scary as hell.

I largely agree . People in MJ classes are not normally - in my experience - given any individual feedback unless they go out and ask for it. In fact the opposite is true. The message is given and continually reinforced that they are all excellent dancers (in the Ceroc context this means 'You are dancing the moves we are trying to teach you.). They may know they haven't got things right, but not necessarily.No matter what horrors they are perpetrating, what mess they are getting into, the comment from the stage during the classes will always be 'excellent, give yourselves a big round of applause!'......If you tell any of them they couldn't dance their way out of a paper bag, you would never see most of them again......:whistle:

[TheTramp]

It's a brave and egoless teacher who will sign up for that.

That's interesting. Cos when I read SpinDr's post, my first thought was that I'd be up for that...

[El Salsero Gringo]

That's interesting. Cos when I read SpinDr's post, my first thought was that I'd be up for that...Thanks. I was just in time to edit my post. :whistle:

[Tessalicious]

I think that to make it fair it should be a complete "360 review".
Which means that everyone gets reviewed, including any "teachers".

SpinDrAside from Trampy's comment :rolleyes:, I would add that whether this would work depends on the aim of the individuals and the group.

If you are aiming to get critique from a teacher you really respect in a masterclass, the last thing you need is someone in the class ripping that teacher apart (this applies at any level, from taxi dancer to top tier teacher). Of course, if the person doing the ripping knows what they're talking about, you might still learn something, but even so you end up so confused you don't know what to take from the session, and then you've wasted your time (and money).

On the other hand, if you want teacher-lead mutual critique, and everyone in the class has something positive to bring as well as something they want to work on, then it could be an interesting proposition. But it has to be by mutual consent, and as ESG says, the ego must be left at the door (of the teacher, but also of the class, because they're going to get critique from fellow classmates who they might not expect it from, not just the teacher).

[Andy McGregor]

If my local teacher told me (as one lady did recently), very good, now you just need to introduce a little bounce into your style, I'd probably want my money back!I suppose it depends what you're doing with the lady and how much you'd already paid her:whistle:

[Andy McGregor]

That's interesting. Cos when I read SpinDr's post, my first thought was that I'd be up for that...And the Tramp is well know for his bravery and lack of ego...

[TheTramp]

Thanks. I was just in time to edit my post. :whistle:

Pleased to be of service....

[Gav]

I suppose it depends what you're doing with the lady and how much you'd already paid her:whistle:

I was asking for directions, I didn't know where I was, honest :blush: :whistle: