Paying teachers...

[David Bailey]

Inspired by this troll:

I've been to 4 different Ceroc classes recently. At every one I did not see the teacher dancing with the less talented dancers or offering individual feedback in any way whatsoever.
I wonder if teachers would have more incentive to promote the venue if they had a financial incentive to do so?

At the moment, I believe, most Ceroc teachers are paid a flat fee (I think it's about £60 but I could be wrong). So there's no inbuilt incentive for teachers to "work the room", to dance with newbies, to spend time explaining the lesson afterwards and so on.

Obviously, most good teachers should do this anyway - and this may well be in the T&C's. But there's no reward for teachers who do a lot of this, and no penalty for teachers who don't (audits excepted) - they pretty much get paid the same either way.

So, would some form of bonus payment structure be sensible? You could argue that Ceroc teachers are salespeople to a point, so some form of commission might be helpful.

Comments?

[Caro]

I see two different ideas in this thread:
1. Teachers should be financially encouraged to dance more with their punters or 'customers'
2. Teachers should be financially encouraged to offer feedback and advice

I agree with both,

For 1. because for most beginners / improvers, dancing with the teacher can make their night and they are often too shy or not confident enough to ask them for a dance. Plus this helps raising the overall level of dancing at the venue. Also watching them dancing is usually enternaining / inspiring for most people, so this should have positive consequences on the frequentation of the venue.

For 2. well obviously cause it helps increasing the level of dancers at the venue and the better ... well the better really. But their is an issue there with feedback as usual, it must be done in a sensitive way, we have to remember that not everybody is there to improve their dancing, some just enjoy the social side of things and have no desire to improve / work on their dancing. So a teacher giving unsollicited feedback to somebody who's happy with their dancing might just put them off. But I trust most teachers are clever enough people to 'target' feedback to the right people and do that tactfully.


I think that any incentive that promotes teachers to be more pro-active with their punters and really transmit their passion of dancing (not just from the stage) should be encouraged. And a financial interest is usually a good incentive.

I don't know the conditions of remuneration for ceroc teachers, but shouldn't there be some sort of reward for those assessed* as good teachers* who make their venue succesful (and eventually raise lots of money for ceroc?).

*obviously those terms can be discussed, i.e. how do you assess that a teacher is good and what is good... but that's not the subject here.
I'm also aware that a venue which is struggling with number might be run by a very good teacher and the attendance level can be due to other factors than just the teacher. Let's say this is considered as part of the 'assessment'...

[David Franklin]

So there's no inbuilt incentive for teachers to "work the room", to dance with newbies, to spend time explaining the lesson afterwards and so on.Isn't the incentive to build up numbers of loyal followers, increasing your reputation until you can split off from the parent organisation, throw a party, and start your own venue? :devil:

[drathzel]

ah but as a teacher should you not want to dance with an encourage your class irrespective of financial gain?

[El Salsero Gringo]

ah but as a teacher should you not want to dance with an encourage your class irrespective of financial gain?That's a good point. There's an implicit assumption in the question that paying more is a incentive. It is to some - usually people who end up in sales. For lots of other people, motivation is provided by different things. It's actually a pretty idle form of management that assumes that any kind of human behaviour can be influenced by throwing more money at it. That is true, but only to the same extent for example as any kind of human behaviour can be influenced by pointing a gun at the right person.

[drathzel]

That's a good point. There's an implicit assumption in the question that paying more is a incentive. It is to some - usually people who end up in sales. For lots of other people, motivation is provided by different things.

My motivation as a teacher is seeing people get up and dance and enjoy themselves it makes me want to teach them even more so they can grow as a dancer!

[David Bailey]

Isn't the incentive to build up numbers of loyal followers, increasing your reputation until you can split off from the parent organisation, throw a party, and start your own venue? :devil:
Yeah, but you've gotta do 250 classes first - that's The Law.

Seriously, there are "large-scale" carrot-and-stick incentives (get fired if you're useless, start a business if you're great), but there's nothing much on a per-evening basis.

So, yes, Mr Borland is apparently working extremely hard to promote his own venue, because he has a direct financial stake in its success. Obviously he's a sales-type person, and obviously not all teachers are naturally motivated by money. But some are, I assume.


I'm also aware that a venue which is struggling with number might be run by a very good teacher and the attendance level can be due to other factors than just the teacher. Let's say this is considered as part of the 'assessment'...
Again, obviously it's a little unfair to put all the responsibility for a venue success / failure on the teacher. Maybe a general crew profit-sharing would be better? I dunno, I'm just throwing out ideas here...

[Caro]

My motivation as a teacher is seeing people get up and dance and enjoy themselves it makes me want to teach them even more so they can grow as a dancer!

of course that's the way we would all like it to be but it seems from Andy and DJ's posts that unfortunately not all teachers feel the same.

So may be what we should really look into is why some teachers are not willing to put in the extra energy (if that's what it is) to dance with their people after the class? What indeed as ESG said would be their trigger to increase their motivation and do just that?

Also I still think that ceroc being a commercial venture - and I a successful one at that at it seems - differenciating remuneration based on litterally how much money their teachers bring them back would make sense. Could that also be seen as a recognition (not just money) from central offices that a teacher has been doing really good?
All things kept into proportion obviously, let's not compare a venue in central london and another in a village in scotland....

And by the way I have to say that I understand we are quite lucky in scotland, because in all the venues where I have been teachers do dance with the people and provide feedback and advice.

[El Salsero Gringo]

obviously not all teachers are naturally motivated by moneyGot any ideas about how to "incentivise" those that aren't?

[Twirly]

Since different people are motivated by differing factors, if you want to encourage a certain behaviour, you need to have a variety of carrots to tempt them with.

For those who find financial rewards an incentive, then possibly a cut of the profits from a venue might be good (though if there were other factors making a venue fail, that might be problematic and would encourage such teachers to teach only at the big, popular venues). Financial incentives will always have their up and down sides though. It would be finding the right balance.

And what about a national recognition award for good teaching – for those who need a different incentive? Provide cards that could be completed at the venue and handed in. The venue manager then sends them into Ceroc HQ for them to be counted up/assessed, and the top few could be invited to the national champs and an award made there. Or something like that.

[ducasi]

Got any ideas about how to "incentivise" those that aren't?
A few ideas...

Send them on weekenders or dance holidays.
Use them for more teaching, for workshops, etc.
Feature them in your publicity more.

I guess at least one of these would be good motivation for someone who isn't interested so-much in money.

[Twirly]

Got any ideas about how to "incentivise" those that aren't?


And what about a national recognition award for good teaching – for those who need a different incentive? Provide cards that could be completed at the venue and handed in. The venue manager then sends them into Ceroc HQ for them to be counted up/assessed, and the top few could be invited to the national champs and an award made there. Or something like that.

There you go :nice:

[El Salsero Gringo]

There you go :nice:I've a much easier-to-administrate scheme to find the best teacher - we just ask Andy McGregor.

[Tessalicious]

On your scheme, Twirly, the teachers that get recognised will be the ones at large or high turnover venues - what about the teachers at small venues with a dedicated regular following, who would all nominate their teacher but can only vote once?

I like ducasi's ideas, but they still wouldn't work for everyone.

Unfortunately it is usually the case (not just for teachers but in most walks of life) that the only way to be rewarded for doing a good job is simply satisfaction in doing a good job.

[TheTramp]

Unfortunately it is usually the case (not just for teachers but in most walks of life) that the only way to be rewarded for doing a good job is simply satisfaction in doing a good job.

Well, they might get asked to teach more, or further afield. On the other hand, since for most it's a part-time interest, this may not be considered as incentive.

They may also get threads or posts about them on the forum. Which they won't read anyhow, since the forum is evil and they don't log on here! :whistle:

[David Bailey]

Got any ideas about how to "incentivise" those that aren't?
Blimey, what am I, a manager or something?

You motivate people by finding out what they want out of a job, and working with them to help achieve it. Duh.

But money does seem to work as a good motivation for most of us, so it's a start.

[Twirly]

On your scheme, Twirly, the teachers that get recognised will be the ones at large or high turnover venues - what about the teachers at small venues with a dedicated regular following, who would all nominate their teacher but can only vote once?

I like ducasi's ideas, but they still wouldn't work for everyone.

Unfortunately it is usually the case (not just for teachers but in most walks of life) that the only way to be rewarded for doing a good job is simply satisfaction in doing a good job.


Not if you do it by percentage of attendance. Evens out the disparity in the venues then and makes the village in the sticks equal to the one in the big smoke.

Or qualitative - special recommendations for a special class. Outstanding teaching.

Of course what you would have to do is motivate the punters to vote :rolleyes:

[El Salsero Gringo]

But money does seem to work as a good motivation for most of us, so it's a start.David, I really think you're entirely wrong about that. Money is a reward for doing a job; but that's very very different from optional extra money as motivation to try harder and do a better job.

[David Bailey]

David, I really think you're entirely wrong about that. Money is a reward for doing a job; but that's very very different from optional extra money as motivation to try harder and do a better job.
Well, I might be wrong. :)

What do you suggest then? or do you not think it's an issue?

[TheTramp]

David, I really think you're entirely wrong about that. Money is a reward for doing a job; but that's very very different from optional extra money as motivation to try harder and do a better job.

Yeah. Quite agree. I think that if money is the only motivational tool that's available, you'll really struggle to motivate any workforce...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Well, I might be wrong. :)

What do you suggest then? or do you not think it's an issue?I'm very much in favour of motivating people to do a good job, naturally. I don't have anything to add on whether Ceroc teachers need extra motivation, that wouldn't be a subject it's fair for me to comment on, but I've read some of the suggestions in this thread with great interest.

[David Bailey]

I'm very much in favour of motivating people to do a good job, naturally. I don't have anything to add on whether Ceroc teachers need extra motivation, that wouldn't be a subject it's fair for me to comment on, but I've read some of the suggestions in this thread with great interest.
Ah, ya big wussy-wuss-wuss. :na:

[drathzel]

Ah, ya big wussy-wuss-wuss. :na:

oh i can feel the temperature rising!

what you two need to go and do is take a time out and play the game!

[Groovemeister]

I would keep an eye on "Ceroc central" early next year as they may have beaten you to this :wink:

[David Bailey]

I would keep an eye on "Ceroc central" early next year as they may have beaten you to this :wink:
What, by forcing failing teachers to look at their website?

Gosh, that's a little harsh. :eek:

[MartinHarper]

So, would some form of bonus payment structure be sensible?

If you've had a good dance with a Ceroc teacher, tip them.

[Gus]

FWIW .... many of the teachers I've come across are in well paid jobs. To be honest, £60 is not compensation enough for giving up an evening ... UNLESS its something you enjoy. However, if you consider that there is all the travel, preparation and pressure of teaching, a key factor (can be) the fcat that the teaching night cuts into sleep time and could impact the day job. £60 is no compensation for that. I'm not using that as an excuse, just trying to put things in perspective. ..... and I KNOW that for some people £60 IS a lot of money ... but I know teachers who have turned down the £100 independants can offer because the key thing is there spare time, not the teaching fee.

Oh ... just on another edge. Newbie young teacher with limited (say 6 months expereince) .. fee £60. Experienced mid-aged teacher, loads of training and self development .. fee £60. Fair? Discuss. :wink:

[Genie]

Having worked for a franchise kind of business before, I have some idea of the stresses involved, so I have to agree with Gus.

Having said that, my local teachers do dance with the punters. Both female teachers have danced with me (they were leading, of course) and they dance with lots of people. Sometimes even coming down to Chicago afterwards with a small group of us, to have a few drinks and dance some more. But I think that is because some teachers have time to enjoy a night out and a good dance, whereas others may have other pressures on their time and mind. To be honest, I would rather they took the time to chill out at home, sleep and do well in their day jobs (there are, after all, other people to dance with), than stress, let it build up, and eventually quit. Which is what would happen if teachers were pressured into doing too much in an evening. Teaching a class can't be easy when you're just not in the mood for it. Organising isn't easy full stop. And helping the people who need it can be quite a chore too, when you're having a bad day and you really just need to kip.

I have every respect for those teachers who stay on and really enjoy the time they spend with us. But I also understand the ones that may leave after the freestyle has kicked off. They lead lives. How many times have you 'not felt like staying' or 'not come along because the kids need sitting' or 'had a bad day, not feeling too good, going to get an early night' ??? Normal punters have the option to just 'not go' or 'leave when they want to'. For teachers (and DJs, etc) they don't have that option. They have a responsibility to turn up and do the class with the same enthusiasm as always. For £60... if you can afford to turn down £60, you would want to sometimes.

You'd only do it if you were really dedicated.

[Cruella]

If you've had a good dance with a Ceroc teacher, tip them.

Aerials aren't practical in freestyle!

[David Bailey]

I'm still waiting for a sensible motivation suggestion, apart from a bonus scheme...


If you've had a good dance with a Ceroc teacher, tip them.
What, like "It's better if you let me lead, OK?" kind of tip? :innocent:

Well, OK, I'll give it a go next time.