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David Bailey
3rd-November-2006, 03:43 PM
Jumping the gun a bit here.

But if some people do think we need moderation, what's the best way of achieving it without damaging the atmosphere of the place?


More / more interventionist moderators?
Some other automated mechanism (e.g. penalty points for bad behaviour)
More members "reporting" bad posts?
More use of negative rep?
Some sort of structural re-vamp ('coz they're always fun)?
Other suggestions?


I'm looking forward to another civilised and polite discussion, respecting each others' views...

under par
3rd-November-2006, 03:48 PM
J
I'm looking forward to another civilised and polite discussion, respecting each others' views...

SOD OFF !

Juju
3rd-November-2006, 03:50 PM
To be honest, as I've got to know this forum and its posters, I'm surprised at some of the stuff people get away with saying. I'd go for more moderators and tougher moderating.

More use of neg rep would just create more opportunities for online strops, so I'd avoid that! Penalty points... ASBO's... not sure anyone would give a stuff and they'd just be treated as a joke.



I'm looking forward to another civilised and polite discussion, respecting each others' views...

An afternoon in with Radio Four?

Gav
3rd-November-2006, 03:54 PM
SOD OFF !

DJ lights another flaming bag of poo and leaves it on the doorstep?


To be honest, as I've got to know this forum and its posters, I'm surprised at some of the stuff people get away with saying. I'd go for more moderators and tougher moderating.

More use of neg rep would just create more opportunities for online strops, so I'd avoid that! Penalty points... ASBO's... not sure anyone would give a stuff and they'd just be treated as a joke.


online strop for neg rep? If I saw that, I'd neg rep them for a laff!

Trouble
3rd-November-2006, 04:01 PM
DJ im beginning to think you are a little bit of a naughty boy. You land a nice link, sit back and wait for the fireworks dont you.

tsk tsk


THATS MY BOY !!!! :worthy:

Stuart M
3rd-November-2006, 04:21 PM
online strop for neg rep? If I saw that, I'd neg rep them for a laff!
Mmm...a standing rule that any post moaning about neg rep is fair game for neg repping by everyone would be interesting. Probably end up with the moderators setting up a creche for all the bruised egos though.

Suggestion: if a thread goes Outside, it is closed to new posts after an agreed period of inactivity, say 2-3 days. Are threads ever closed on this Forum?
One of the most recent threads to end up Outside became a Zombie which wouldn't die - every few days it was brought boringly back to life by an occasional forumite who'd just picked it up in "New Posts", and felt compelled to add:

I've just seen this thread and can't believe all the negative blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah why can't you all blah blah blah blah blah...
And then everyone else would pipe up again...

By closing the thread after a pause, any johnny-come-lately has to start a new related thread to get involved, and a basic rule of the internet is that the more clicks it takes for something to happen, the less likely it happens. Even the morally indignant are lazy f***s at heart...

straycat
3rd-November-2006, 04:30 PM
Jumping the gun a bit here.

But if some people do think we need moderation, what's the best way of achieving it without damaging the atmosphere of the place?



I think... we need every single post to be independently assessed by a full committee of impartial third party observers.

In order to help them do their jobs correctly, when submitting a post, we need to do a pre-assessment of the levels of humour, vitriol, fact, assistance, bullsh1t, stirring, fantasy, sexual content, negativity, optimism, self-deceit, hopeless longing, controversy, bigotry, open-mindedness, prejudice, sexism, self-disparagement, childishness, aged and refined wisdom, incalculable elegance, geekiness, dance-related content and pornographic images of lobsters to be found within the post.

If they judge that the post lies relatively close in content to the assessment of the poster, and that those levels fall within the acceptable boundaries for the thread concerned (taking into account the any allowed the poster based on their past contributions and overall value to the forum), the post will be added to the desired thread (or an alternative thread to be selected by the committee or a sub-committee designated by the above, or by the tossing of a disc-shaped unit of currency)

Turnaraound should be kept within a time-limit of seven days, in order to keep the flow of banter to an acceptable level.

A system of targets should be established and maintained religiously by each forum member for numbers of posts, quantities of each of the above named categories to be achieved over the course of each month, reputation to be received and given, and so on. Forum members failing to meet their own personal targets will be subject to the usual disciplinary measures.

I think that this system will go a long way towards achieving the feeling of harmony and unity within the forum that we all subconciously yearn for.

David Bailey
3rd-November-2006, 04:31 PM
Suggestion: if a thread goes Outside, it is closed to new posts after an agreed period of inactivity, say 2-3 days. Are threads ever closed on this Forum?
Good suggestion.

I'd also suggest (widening the discussion a bit) that all polls should be closed after a certain amount of time automatically - say, 6 months. That'd kill the Fat People thread off at last...

Feelingpink
3rd-November-2006, 04:42 PM
Jumping the gun a bit here.

But if some people do think we need moderation, what's the best way of achieving it without damaging the atmosphere of the place?


...
Other suggestions?


I'm looking forward to another civilised and polite discussion, respecting each others' views...David's Dungeon? Anyone the mods find guilty of disrespect, gets three hours with you in your dungeon to do with as you please. They could clean the loo, watch SCD reruns, be put in chains, whipped within an inch of their lives, made to practise tango crosses or simply listen to you discussing how you felt used and abused on this forum. :what: Oooh, and we could have a poll for most 'popular' David's Dungeon activities ... :devil: Just imagine what you could do with ESG or SilverFox ...

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-November-2006, 04:44 PM
Just imagine what you could do with ESGI think I need to go and lie down

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-November-2006, 04:46 PM
But if some people do think we need moderation, what's the best way of achieving it without damaging the atmosphere of the place?And I thought *I* was a stirrer... I've got to hand it to the master though.

Personally I'd just vote for DavidJames as moderator ...

Ghost
3rd-November-2006, 07:04 PM
At the moment you can't start threads Outside. This means if you do want to have a "heated discussion" or throw around brickbats you've got to do it in the existing threads.

How about a separate area, one step calmer than Take It Outside, where people who don't want to have

civilised and polite discussion, respecting each others' views...

can do so and the more sensitive can carefully avoid (or watch from a distance and throw rep) with the caveat that the other threads, especially the Technical Ones then do have
civilised and polite discussion, respecting each others' views...

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-November-2006, 07:52 PM
At the moment you can't start threads Outside. This means if you do want to have a "heated discussion" or throw around brickbats you've got to do it in the existing threads.

How about a separate area, one step calmer than Take It Outside, where people who don't want to have


can do so and the more sensitive can carefully avoid (or watch from a distance and throw rep) with the caveat that the other threads, especially the Technical Ones then do haveNo, that's a rubbish idea. Nobody "decides" they're going to have a heated discussion. It's a regular discussion, all ways around, until somebody posts something that requires heat. That's a spur-of-the-moment thing.

Ghost
3rd-November-2006, 08:14 PM
No, that's a rubbish idea. Nobody "decides" they're going to have a heated discussion. It's a regular discussion, all ways around, until somebody posts something that requires heat. That's a spur-of-the-moment thing.
I know quite a few people for whom it isn't a spur of the moment thing, they just enjoy heated debate from time to time (or constantly). In fact on another Forum they've actually done this and it seems to work quite well.

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-November-2006, 08:20 PM
I know quite a few people for whom it isn't a spur of the moment thing, they just enjoy heated debate from time to time (or constantly).Sure, I like heated debate too - but I don't sit down at my computer and think "I'm going to have a heated debate today, which thread shall I pick?". I just respond with whatever's on my mind in threads that I find interesting.

MartinHarper
3rd-November-2006, 08:21 PM
How about people behave in a civilised way, and respect the views of others?

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-November-2006, 08:24 PM
How about people behave in a civilised way, and respect the views of others?Define (or at least elaborate upon) "respect the views of others", please.

MartinHarper
3rd-November-2006, 08:44 PM
Define (or at least elaborate upon) "respect the views of others", please.

Elaborating:
Accept that reasonable people can have differing views.
Acknowledge that people with differing views are unlikely to have chosen them as a personal slight to yourself.
Accept that convincing everyone to share your views is typically impossible and pointless.
Try to understand the views of others before slagging them off.
Listen to what people think, don't tell them what they think.
Realise that it is possible to be the person who is incorrect.

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-November-2006, 08:51 PM
Elaborating:
Accept that reasonable people can have differing views.
Acknowledge that people with differing views are unlikely to have chosen them as a personal slight to yourself.
Accept that convincing everyone to share your views is typically impossible and pointless.
Try to understand the views of others before slagging them off.
Listen to what people think, don't tell them what they think.
Realise that it is possible to be the person who is incorrect.OK.

My view is that I do all of those things even in the heat of argument. (I do remember arguing fiercely that reasonable people can hold different views many many times on this Forum.) That view extends far enough to consider that I might be incorrect in that view. Before you (or anyone else) jumps in to disagree, let me ask you to accord me the same respect in my holdling of that view as you would wish me to accord you in the holding of the same - or different view.

Incidentally - I see very little merit in making a habit of expressing a strongly-held view weakly, by saying "I might be wrong but I think...". Let the reader take for granted that you might be wrong, and credit them with the intelligence to understand that what you are about to say is what you think. Saying "I might be wrong but I think..." all the time is a way for lazy people to exhibit a lack of confidence in what they're about to say.

(If you prefer, you can preface the last sentence thusly: 'I might be wrong but I think that saying "I might be wrong but I think...." all the time is a way....'. The difference is meaningless.)

Ghost
3rd-November-2006, 09:03 PM
How about people behave in a civilised way, and respect the views of others?


OK.

My view is that I do all of those things even in the heat of argument.

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

~ Dean Inge

Simply reading the sister thread and looking at the poll, there appears to be two differing perspectives on what Martin's talking about. I don't think at this point either side is likely to change their view on what actually is "reasonable", no matter how well or clearly the other side expresses it.

I like David's idea of trying to find other solutions before we get to the point where all the sheep either leave or become lurkers.

MartinHarper
3rd-November-2006, 09:24 PM
My view is that I do all of those things even in the heat of argument.

Good. Keep it up.

El Salsero Gringo
4th-November-2006, 01:41 PM
Simply reading the sister thread and looking at the poll, there appears to be two differing perspectives on what Martin's talking about. I don't think at this point either side is likely to change their view on what actually is "reasonable", no matter how well or clearly the other side expresses it. I think you're right about two differing perspectives. But I'd still like to know in more detail what the other perspective is.

David Bailey
4th-November-2006, 02:01 PM
Incidentally - I see very little merit in making a habit of expressing a strongly-held view weakly, by saying "I might be wrong but I think...". Let the reader take for granted that you might be wrong, and credit them with the intelligence to understand that what you are about to say is what you think.
I agree with the former, disagree with the latter :)

"I might be wrong but I think" is poor. But it never hurts to preface an opinion with a reminder that it is just an opinion - both for the writer and the reader.

(At least, I don't think it ever hurts. I might be wrong.)


I like David's idea of trying to find other solutions before we get to the point where all the sheep either leave or become lurkers.
I think we've actually passed that point. :sad:

Ghost
4th-November-2006, 02:15 PM
I think you're right about two differing perspectives. But I'd still like to know in more detail what the other perspective is.

I'd recommend reading
"Violence, Blunders and Fractured Jaws" by Marc "Animal" MacYoung (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Violence-Blunders-Fractured-Jaws-Techniques/dp/0873646711/sr=11-1/qid=1162645250/ref=sr_11_1/202-1029479-8881407)

It thoroughly covers social interactions, mores, violence, boundaries, acceptable behaviour and the variations (and consequences)

Double Trouble
4th-November-2006, 04:53 PM
How about people behave in a civilised way, and respect the views of others?

:rofl: Best joke I've read all day. Love this site.

Gav
4th-November-2006, 11:07 PM
How about people behave in a civilised way, and respect the views of others?:rofl: Best joke I've read all day. Love this site.

How about we all remember that this is just a forum and there's actually a real life out there that matters just a little bit more?

Double Trouble
4th-November-2006, 11:30 PM
How about we all remember that this is just a forum and there's actually a real life out there that matters just a little bit more?

Yeah, as much as I love this site. its' just fun & I tell you, if it was all nicey nicey, lardy bloody dar, you would all be falling asleep on your mouse mats.

Gav
4th-November-2006, 11:34 PM
Yeah, as much as I love this site. its' just fun & I tell you, if it was all nicey nicey, lardy bloody dar, you would all be falling asleep on your mouse mats.

*Snores loudly*

Sorry, did you say something? I was just resting my eyes. :innocent:

:rofl:

Double Trouble
4th-November-2006, 11:36 PM
*Snores loudly*

Sorry, did you say something? I was just resting my eyes. :innocent:

:rofl:

Get your popcorn ready tiger...I'm feeling playful.

Gav
4th-November-2006, 11:38 PM
Get your popcorn ready tiger...I'm feeling playful.

uh-oh!:eek:

Trouble
4th-November-2006, 11:49 PM
uh-oh!:eek:

oh and so am I,, sis pass the popcorn. :devil:

Double Trouble
4th-November-2006, 11:53 PM
oh and so am I,, sis pass the popcorn. :devil:

Get your own you greedy mare. You can have my popcorn & gav when I've reduced him to a quivering wreck. Should take me all of about 2 minutes. :yum:

Trouble
4th-November-2006, 11:55 PM
Get your own you greedy mare. You can have my popcorn & gav when I've reduced him to a quivering wreck. Should take me all of about 2 minutes. :yum:

im going to bed so will leave you to it.....xxxx

laters

jivecat
5th-November-2006, 11:37 AM
Oh for pity's sake, yet another discussion derailed by completely mindless "banter". Yawn, yawn, yawn.

Oh, er, did I just inadvertently prove a point there?

I'll rephrase that.

I might be wrong here, but many people would prefer it if people could stick to the point when replying to threads.

Double Trouble
5th-November-2006, 01:17 PM
Oh for pity's sake, yet another discussion derailed by completely mindless "banter". Yawn, yawn, yawn.

Oh, er, did I just inadvertently prove a point there?

I'll rephrase that.

I might be wrong here, but many people would prefer it if people could stick to the point when replying to threads.

Blimey, you sound just like an old primary school teacher I once knew form Leicester. You can't be the same person, she was a miserable ugly old hag. nothoing like you at all.

Double Trouble
5th-November-2006, 01:49 PM
Blimey, you sound just like an old primary school teacher I once knew form Leicester. You can't be the same person, she was a miserable ugly old hag. nothoing like you at all.

Ok, now I will try and say something contructive.

This is a forum about dancing, but, having read lots and lots of threads before even daring to comment on here, I got the impression it's more of an on line social club for people who dance.

Any social club that I have visited has lots of discussion, heated debate, abusive language, banter, idle gossip, fights, funny gags, p1ss taking & people from all difference spectrums, with lots of different opinions and different ways of expressing them.

I, for one, love the fact that, when you mix all that up....it gets interesting.

Lory
5th-November-2006, 02:03 PM
Ok,This is a forum about dancing, but, having read lots and lots of threads before even daring to comment on here, I got the impression it's more of an on line social club for people who dance.

That's why we have different discussion lounges, like 'Chit chat,' 'let's talk about dance,' 'Geeks corner' and 'the DJ booth,' etc., if people stick to posting in the appropriate places, instead of taking every thread off topic, I think the forum would be a happier and friendlier place for everyone!


I, for one, love the fact that, when you mix all that up....it gets interesting.
I'm afraid I don't share your point of view :flower:

David Bailey
5th-November-2006, 02:10 PM
Ok, now I will try and say something contructive.

This is a forum about dancing, but, having read lots and lots of threads before even daring to comment on here, I got the impression it's more of an on line social club for people who dance.

Any social club that I have visited has lots of discussion, heated debate, abusive language, banter, idle gossip, fights, funny gags, p1ss taking & people from all difference spectrums, with lots of different opinions and different ways of expressing them.

I, for one, love the fact that, when you mix all that up....it gets interesting.
I never go to social clubs, I wouldn't know. David No-Mates, that's me.

Anyway. I suspect jivecat's point, with which I agree, is that there are already lots of places on this forum where you can play around, banter or whatever; Chit Chat, Singleton's Sofa etc.

But " Forum technical problems / Questions / Suggestions" is supposed to be for stuff talking about the Forum, and it's sometimes nice to keep threads, especially in these areas, on-topic as much as possible.

EDIT: Blast, Lory beat me to it. David No-Mates And Slow Typist...

bigdjiver
5th-November-2006, 05:39 PM
Blimey, you sound just like an old primary school teacher I once knew form Leicester. You can't be the same person, she was a miserable ugly old hag. nothoing like you at all.No, nothing like Jivecat at all. Regretably that teacher apparently did not teach you to write properly, or respect for others.

David Bailey
5th-November-2006, 05:53 PM
Anyway, dragging this thread kicking and screaming back on track, the only actual suggestions have been:

- Some way to kill off zombie threads once they've gone Outside.
- A "halfway house" to Take It Outside, where people can have a Heated Debate.
- Variations on the "Let's all be nicer to each other" theme.

Anybody else want to suggest anything?

Reminder: this is a discussion about possible control mechanisms, not about people.

El Salsero Gringo
5th-November-2006, 06:21 PM
Anyway, dragging this thread kicking and screaming back on track, the only actual suggestions have been:

- Some way to kill off zombie threads once they've gone Outside.
- A "halfway house" to Take It Outside, where people can have a Heated Debate.
- Variations on the "Let's all be nicer to each other" theme.

Anybody else want to suggest anything?

Reminder: this is a discussion about possible control mechanisms, not about people.Alright then, here's an idea. Not technically feasible as things stand. Let posts pick up a "heat" rating (I'm sure I've seen this on other forums, with little chilli icons). Maybe an average, or the poster can start it off. Then you can set a heat threshold - show me posts only with three or less chillis. That kind of thing. If you set it too low, you'd perhaps only get half a thread, but better than being inadvertantly offended.

For that matter you could have "relevance" score for each post. And people who don't like chat could set their relevance threshold higher than others who do.

Cruella
5th-November-2006, 06:27 PM
Sounds a good idea, as long as I can set it to only show posts with 5 chillies or more.:D

bigdjiver
5th-November-2006, 06:32 PM
Sounds a good idea, as long as I can set it to only show posts with 5 chillies or more.:DWhat? Just your own? :devil:

Cruella
5th-November-2006, 06:48 PM
No mine are only worthy of up to 3.

Feelingpink
5th-November-2006, 07:06 PM
Anyway, dragging this thread kicking and screaming back on track, the only actual suggestions have been:

- Some way to kill off zombie threads once they've gone Outside.
- A "halfway house" to Take It Outside, where people can have a Heated Debate.
- Variations on the "Let's all be nicer to each other" theme.

Anybody else want to suggest anything?

Reminder: this is a discussion about possible control mechanisms, not about people.What - you didn't like the idea of your dungeon? Oh well. :sad:

Another forum that I'm on has quite strong moderators. The guy in charge is very hot on forumites behaving themselves & openly states that people who continue to insult others will be thrown out. Posts with insults are removed, warnings given on threads where this is done & the threads locked where posters continue to be insulting to others, rather than their opinions. It had a forum section for 'heated discussions' (The Hot Zone) with more open conditions, but after it appeared that it was not possible to have civilised discussions about subjects like politics & religion, this was removed. All posts relating to either topic in any other section are also removed. There are times when this all seems a little harsh ... but it is also a 'safe' place to post and I don't know of anyone who has left that forum because of insults or impoliteness - unlike this one.

That forum has many more members & posts than this one (hard as it may be to believe), but also has about 8-10 moderators over a couple of time zones. Somehow get-together threads & chit-chat threads remain funny & friendly, at times very personal in a nice way and personalities & senses of humour are very much in evidence. However, on the more serious threads, posters remain on topic most of the time.

On this forum, I think there are two issues that have become more evident over the past four months or so. One is the 'chilli factor' - the heatedness & personal insults that have become so much more prevalent & seemingly acceptable. The other is the verbal diarrhoea. To an extent, there are only a few people who seem to do this, so it is easy enough to put them on an ignore list. On the other hand, if they actually go & post something of value to a topical discussion, how many of us would read it?

Lynn
5th-November-2006, 07:07 PM
Incidentally - I see very little merit in making a habit of expressing a strongly-held view weakly, by saying "I might be wrong but I think...". Let the reader take for granted that you might be wrong, and credit them with the intelligence to understand that what you are about to say is what you think. Saying "I might be wrong but I think..." all the time is a way for lazy people to exhibit a lack of confidence in what they're about to say.So instead of just disagreeing with what someone is saying you want to disagree with how they say it?

And I note you've also taken up mind reading - as you just know that its someone being lazy about a 'strongly held opinion' rather than someone who is thinking things through, tossing some ideas around, interested in hearing others opinions and is open to being proved wrong.

Of course I might be wrong about that.

El Salsero Gringo
5th-November-2006, 07:25 PM
On the other hand, if they actually go & post something of value to a topical discussion, how many of us would read it?More likely they (we/you) would have given up and found somewhere else to post, and you'd lose the prospect of even the occasional valuable contribution. (By the way I'm pretty sure that there'd be no great agreement on the forum as to which posters are worth trawling through. I suspect my list differs markedly from yours, for instance.)


So instead of just disagreeing with what someone is saying you want to disagree with how they say it?No. But I disagree that if I feel strongly that someone is talking a load of *******s, that I should (out of an "etiquette" that I don't subscribe to) be forced to say "I'm sorry, but although I might be wrong, I think you're somewhat incorrect. Please forgive me for having the temerity to disagree with you."

I'd much rather have someone tell me up front if they think I'm talking nonsense, and not pussy around it.

And I note you've also taken up mind reading - as you just know that its someone being lazy about a 'strongly held opinion' rather than someone who is thinking things through, tossing some ideas around, interested in hearing others opinions and is open to being proved wrong.As I tried to make clear - to always say it is lazy. I also say it, sometimes, when it has a meaning.



And I will firmly kick into touch your incorrect and implicit assumption that a strongly-held view is one that is not open to being proved wrong. Quite the opposite in fact.

Lynn
6th-November-2006, 01:28 AM
And I will firmly kick into touch your incorrect and implicit assumption that a strongly-held view is one that is not open to being proved wrong. Quite the opposite in fact.Ouch. Donkeys have a strong kick.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 09:50 AM
to always sayAaaarghhh... I can't believe I split the infinitive! Where's that whip?

Feelingpink
6th-November-2006, 09:56 AM
Aaaarghhh... I can't believe I split the infinitive! Where's that whip?Tessalicious has it? :wink:

bigdjiver
6th-November-2006, 11:16 AM
I reached for the quick replybutton to try to quote Winston Churchill. "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put."
Then I thought no, this is not a chit-chat thread.
Then I thought perhaps threads could be colour coded or otherwise styled so that the type of thread was more obvious.
Then I thought it might be better if the quick reply button brought up a "think about it" interim box , with a "count to ten" delay in certain forum areas and at high temperature times.
Then I thought it might be better if my quick reply box never came up at all ....

Gav
6th-November-2006, 11:44 AM
Aaaarghhh... I can't believe I split the infinitive! Where's that whip?

Sad, but most of the population don't even know what you mean and out of those who do there is a growing belief that it doesn't really matter
Don't fear the grammar nazis, English is an evolving language!

ducasi
6th-November-2006, 06:07 PM
Incidentally - I see very little merit in making a habit of expressing a strongly-held view weakly, by saying "I might be wrong but I think...". Let the reader take for granted that you might be wrong, and credit them with the intelligence to understand that what you are about to say is what you think. Saying "I might be wrong but I think..." all the time is a way for lazy people to exhibit a lack of confidence in what they're about to say. It could instead be modesty. ;)

Either way, I've learnt on this forum that unless you want to suffer someone's wrath (or get negative rep) for expressing a controversial opinion, it's best to prefix it with "I think", or similar.

ducasi
6th-November-2006, 06:12 PM
On the exact topic of Forum Control Mechanisms...

The current version of the forum software allows the moderators to give "penalty points" (can't remember the exact term they use) to users if they do something bad.

Then if a user collects enough points, they would be banned from posting for a period of time.

I don't know how much this system has been implemented or used by our esteemed moderators and admins, but I suspect it could be used more.

(Again, perhaps more moderators would make this an easier thing to do.)