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David Bailey
2nd-November-2006, 09:29 AM
Taken from here:

Over the last couple of years, the ambient temperature has risen, so what used to be in-acceptable is now common place! Happy to debate whether you want a cleaner / nicer forum or if you like it as it is!
I don't have a basis for comparison, but I think it's a good question.

Is the forum too hot (nasty) for you? If so, what should be changed*?

Is the temperature just fine?

Or would you prefer it to be even "hotter" and more argumentative? If so, why?

* Apart from me leaving of course, let's get that joke out of the way first

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 09:48 AM
Taken from here:

I don't have a basis for comparison, but I think it's a good question.

Is the forum too hot (nasty) for you? If so, what should be changed*?

Is the temperature just fine?

Or would you prefer it to be even "hotter" and more argumentative? If so, why?

* Apart from me leaving of course, let's get that joke out of the way first

It's a nice balance as it is because you can currently have a serious discussion, or take the **** as much as you like.
As long as people don't get the two mixed up we'll be fine. :eek: :blush:

"Taxi for DavidJames"

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 09:52 AM
I think that there's definitely more arguments and conflicts on here now than there was when I started.

As long as they are kept relatively impersonal (yes, I know I haven't always! :na: ), and aren't too nasty, then I don't see too much of a problem.

After all, who only wants to see the lovey, mushy stuff?

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 09:53 AM
Temperature in here? Too cold. Much too cold.

Shodan
2nd-November-2006, 10:06 AM
I'm a newbie to this forum so I haven't been here long enough to p155 people off...... YET. :devil::grin:

Gus
2nd-November-2006, 10:24 AM
Is the forum too hot (nasty) for you? If so, what should be changed*? I think is is 'too warm' (hanker after the early days:rolleyes: )... usualy resulting from challenges to facts that descend into personal slanging matches. Should there be an 'ettiquette' rule that brick batting should only be done by PMs ... and this should be enforced by Moderators .. using the Yelllow Card system?

Lory
2nd-November-2006, 10:48 AM
should be enforced by Moderators .. using the Yelllow Card system?

As Franck has said before, if anyone feels that a post is out of order for what ever reason, too personal or offensive, please bring it to our attention, using the 'report post button'

We then have the choice to edit it, remove it and if necessary give a warning.:cool:

Just as a note, I know when I first joined the forum, I was quite frightened to use the report post button, I didn't know who read it or what happened - But actually, all that happens is a notice is sent to Franck, Tiggerbabe and myself, nothing more than that. ;)

Its also a great way to tell us if you think we should keep an eye on a certain thread or that you've simply made a mistake, eg double posted, or need to edit something, as it also directs us straight to that post (which is helpful for us). It saves you writting a PM to tell us all :nice:

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 10:49 AM
Its also a great way to tell us if you think we should keep an eye on a certain thread or that you've simply made a mistake, eg double posted, or need to edit something, as it also directs us straight to that post. It saves you writting a PM to tell us all :nice:Last time I tried that, I found I couldn't report one of my own posts. Was I being dumb?

EDIT: Apparently so: I can now. Does it have anything to do with member status?

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 10:52 AM
Temperature - I was trying to decide whether that was the correct word there but I think you may be right. But it seems to come from friction!

Has anyone done a friction search yet to find out who starts the threads that get all the arguments started and I suppose who actually is involved? That'd be an interesting piece of research I think

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 11:01 AM
Last time I tried that, I found I couldn't report one of my own posts. Was I being dumb?

Probably. No change there then!


EDIT: Apparently so: I can now. Does it have anything to do with member status?

Okie, so no you weren't. I guess that's changed. Don't think that it's anything to do with being a member though...

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 11:03 AM
Has anyone done a friction search yet to find out who starts the threads that get all the arguments started and I suppose who actually is involved? That'd be an interesting piece of research I think

I don't think that it'd take long to come up with a list of who is involved. Can probably mostly do that from memory!

GetAGrip
Tiggs Tours
ESG
Gus
DavidJames
Wittybird
Me :blush:

Or did you want to go back a little further?
AndyMcGregor
Mikey

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 11:08 AM
I don't think that it'd take long to come up with a list of who is involved. Can probably mostly do that from memory!

GetAGrip
Tiggs Tours
ESG
Gus
DavidJames
Wittybird
Me :blush:

Or did you want to go back a little further?
AndyMcGregor
Mikey

Don't forget Fletch :whistle:

Stuart M
2nd-November-2006, 11:10 AM
Its also a great way to tell us if you think we should keep an eye on a certain thread or that you've simply made a mistake, eg double posted, or need to edit something, as it also directs us straight to that post (which is helpful for us). It saves you writting a PM to tell us all :nice:
Regarding the reporting system, it'd be interesting if the number of times a person was reported, appeared alongside their rep on each post...

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 11:12 AM
Regarding the reporting system, it'd be interesting if the number of times a person was reported, appeared alongside their rep on each post...

Why?
Does anyone actually care how many times someone is reported? I know I don't, but then I actually have a life so I don't really give a sh1t what others get up to.

Gus
2nd-November-2006, 11:13 AM
Regarding the reporting system, it'd be interesting if the number of times a person was reported, appeared alongside their rep on each post...Would be also to see how many 'ignore lists' someone was on ... fair indication of how many people they had managed to hack-off.

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 11:16 AM
But what does that tell us then?

If these people are all posting in a thread then the posters should be prepared for fireworks.

I reckon it's a case of if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

You're; We're all big boys - Witty included in a Rotweiler pretending to be a poodle sort of way. If someone don't like your post they can have a go in my book and not by hidden and sly PM.

Argue away! It's about the only thing British people can do well now!

Double Trouble
2nd-November-2006, 11:18 AM
Why?
Does anyone actually care how many times someone is reported? I know I don't, but then I actually have a life so I don't really give a sh1t what others get up to.

I'm with you on this one witty. The heated messages on this site make it what it is. You don't have to join in if you don't want to, just enjoy everyone else getting all of a kuffufle. Love it...!

David Bailey
2nd-November-2006, 11:19 AM
Would be also to see how many 'ignore lists' someone was on ... fair indication of how many people they had managed to hack-off.
But then it'd become a badge of honour, like ASBOs or something. :rofl:

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 11:21 AM
Here's another thing

Why is everyone (exageration is my middle name) invisible now?

Who's scared of what ?

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 11:26 AM
But then it'd become a badge of honour, like ASBOs or something. :rofl:

we already sorted that out on a weekender at Camber when Dirty D was awarding DASBO's out :rofl:

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 11:35 AM
Regarding the reporting system, it'd be interesting if the number of times a person was reported, appeared alongside their rep on each post...


Would be also to see how many 'ignore lists' someone was on ... fair indication of how many people they had managed to hack-off.


Here's another thing

Why is everyone (exageration is my middle name) invisible now?

Who's scared of what ?

So you have neg rep, you've been reported, you've had threads taken upstairs, outside and down the road, and now you're invisible.

Who gives a fat rat's @rse?

Let's just dance!

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 11:38 AM
So you have neg rep, you've been reported, you've had threads taken upstairs, outside and down the road, and now you're invisible.

Who gives a fat rat's @rse?

Let's just dance!

Might be hard with someone who is invisible.....

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 11:41 AM
Might be hard with someone who is invisible.....

That might help me with my Going Solo (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10228) thread!

David Franklin
2nd-November-2006, 12:00 PM
I reckon it's a case of if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.Problem with that is you end up with a kitchen devoid of chefs and filled with pyromaniacs.

I do find it a real shame that so few teachers post here. And yes, that's largely because a lot of them have busy lives. But I also know of several who have said they've looked at the forum, seen all the bitching and thought "I don't want to be involved in this". And it's definitely got worse - there are several people whose posts I looked forward to who have either left or are now only lurkers.

This forum gets more than 10 times the traffic of any other dance forum I follow. But there are several that I find more informative when it comes to actual dance discussion. It would be nice if we could improve the dance discussion here without losing all the other good bits.

Gus
2nd-November-2006, 12:08 PM
This forum gets more than 10 times the traffic of any other dance forum I follow. But there are several that I find more informative when it comes to actual dance discussion. It would be nice if we could improve the dance discussion here without losing all the other good bits.Can't argue with that :wink:

Sparkles
2nd-November-2006, 12:08 PM
It would be nice if we could improve the dance discussion here without losing all the other good bits.

Asking for your cake and eating it there too DF :rolleyes:

It's a shame there's so much 'heated debate' (in terms of personal attacks) but the comfort I take from that is that people really care about things - if they didn't care they wouldn't bother to speak up.
The good thing about the forum in this respect is that you don't *have* to join in - there's no-one forcing you to read the threads, there's no-one forcing you to type replies - so how much or little you are involved is entirely up to you.

Other dance forums may concentrated more on pure dance discussions, but I doubt they have such a sense of community (which is one of the things I love about this forum) and I doubt they are nearly so entertaining.

When it comes down to it this is Franck's forum. If he decided that all the 'fun' threads and all the 'heated debates' were not to be tolerated he could delete them all and impose rules accordingly. So far he hasn't done that - and maybe that is the reason why this is one of the busiest dance forums out there...?

:flower:

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 12:12 PM
There's a bunch of people on this forum – no names, I can't be bothered listing them all – who don't seem to realise that it's *people* they are communicating with, and talking about. Or else just don't care. :(

robd
2nd-November-2006, 12:12 PM
It's a shame there's so much 'heated debate'

I blame Mrs Merton for encouraging it :D

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 12:14 PM
who don't seem to realise that it's *people* they are communicating with... as opposed to?

Double Trouble
2nd-November-2006, 12:15 PM
There's a bunch of people on this forum – no names, I can't be bothered listing them all – who don't seem to realise that it's *people* they are communicating with, and talking about. Or else just don't care. :(

Go on.....Name them, then see the steam coming out of your computer. I dare you.

MartinHarper
2nd-November-2006, 12:16 PM
When it comes down to it this is Franck's forum. If he decided that all the 'fun' threads and all the 'heated debates' were not to be tolerated he could delete them all and impose rules accordingly. So far he hasn't done that...

Franck said in the other thread that he (and the other two moderators) didn't have time to impose rules accordingly, even if he wanted to. I wouldn't read too much into these things.

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 12:20 PM
Franck said in the other thread that he (and the other two moderators) didn't have time to impose rules accordingly, even if he wanted to. I wouldn't read too much into these things.

Yeah.... Probably expects us to behave like responsible adults!

How foolish is that? :rolleyes:

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 12:34 PM
... as opposed to?
God only knows... Funny pictures on their computers that talk to them and make them laugh?

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 12:35 PM
Franck said in the other thread that he (and the other two moderators) didn't have time to impose rules accordingly, even if he wanted to. I wouldn't read too much into these things.
Time for more moderators?

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 12:39 PM
Is there any way of adding a poll to this thread?

Unsurprisingly I'm in favour of the temperature cooling down a bit.

Read the Sofa for any length of time and it quickly becomes apparent that a lot of people go through rough times and the last thing they need is someone ripping into them for fun.

Banter's fine, that's what the smilies are for :na: .

Nothing wrong with differences of opinion. It's really hard to be completely right about something as subjective as dance. But there's a big differenec between "I think what you're saying is wrong" and "I think you're wrong".

"There is no substitute for good manners -- except fast reflexes." ~ Vlad Taltos

David Bailey
2nd-November-2006, 12:40 PM
It's a loosely-moderated forum - both by culture and by time constraints.

Obviously, it could become more strictly-moderated, if Franck wants some more people to help out. But, would that be a good or a bad thing?

The trouble is that this type of question is always self-selective - most of the "Just noisy enough" people will of course be happy with it, whereas few of the "it's too noisy" gang will poke their heads over the parapet...

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 12:43 PM
But there's a big difference between "I think what you're saying is wrong" and "I think you're wrong".

I don't think that there's much difference between those. There is however a lot of difference between "I think you're wrong", and "I think you're wrong, and a complete w@nker, and a performing seal"! :whistle:

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 12:44 PM
Read the Sofa for any length of time and it quickly becomes apparent that a lot of people go through rough times and the last thing they need is someone ripping into them for fun.


What a load of b0ll0cks Ghost.

Read the sofa for any length of time and it sends you to sleep. If they can't take the heat get out of the fire. Nobody is forcing them to get involved. The keyboard doesn't type itself :rolleyes:

Anyway I'm really easy to get along with once you people learn to see it my way :D

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 12:51 PM
You just need to lighten up, ***!

If you don't like the thread, go read another one.

If you don't like what I said, you're wrong, I mean, report me or PM me or something. If I'm that bad, what the hell get me booted out. The systems are there, use them or stop whining.

The second the forum becomes so heavily moderated that you can't speak your mind, is the second that everyone with an opinion will start using other forums instead.

David Franklin
2nd-November-2006, 01:00 PM
It's almost a comedy sketch:


Q: Does anyone else ever think the forum's got too argumentative and vitriolic?

A: F*ck off, you t*sser!

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 01:02 PM
You just need to lighten up, ***!
"Smile when you say that so all may know you speak in jest :hug: "


If you don't like the thread, go read another one.

But what if it's a thread I actually want to read eg someone's finally figured out which foot to step back on in the first move?

I'm not asking people to not comment. All I'm asking is that people be polite.
:flower:

Double Trouble
2nd-November-2006, 01:03 PM
It's almost a comedy sketch:


Q: Does anyone else ever think the forum's got too argumentative and vitriolic?

A: F*ck off, you t*sser!

Couldn't have put it better myself...! :rofl:

David Bailey
2nd-November-2006, 01:03 PM
It's almost a comedy sketch:


Q: Does anyone else ever think the forum's got too argumentative and vitriolic?

A: F*ck off, you t*sser!
:rofl:

I was wondering how long it'd take to get self-referentially argumentative.

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 01:08 PM
"If you can't stand the heat ..." is not any sort of justification for rudeness ever.

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 01:09 PM
All I'm asking is that people be polite.


I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

Shodan
2nd-November-2006, 01:10 PM
Errrr... from a newbies (to this forum) perspective this thread seems to be fairly argumentative and we are only discussing whether this forum is becoming too 'hot'. :sick:

I know I'm too new here to comment on historical incidents for you long term people on this forum, but I'm very keen on meeting some new people here and being nice and so forth.

I mean I work along the lines of if I have nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all. :nice:

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 01:11 PM
"Smile when you say that so all may know you speak in jest :hug: "

Yes, I'm aware of that convention.



But what if it's a thread I actually want to read eg someone's finally figured out which foot to step back on in the first move?

I'm not asking people to not comment. All I'm asking is that people be polite.
:flower:

I agree, on serious threads people should remain polite. All I'm saying is that you should use the existing systems to sort out people who aren't, not impose some system where the moderators have to crack down upon everyone. Ultimately that could kill the forum off altogether. Whether that's because people feel unable to speak out or because the extra work leads to charges for registering to pay for the moderators extra time.

Look you've got me being all serious now. G1t. :D

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 01:14 PM
Read the Sofa for any length of time and it quickly becomes apparent I'm with Witty on that one: read the Sofa for any length of time and your brain will start to dribble out of your ears.
God only knows... Funny pictures on their computers that ... make them laugh?If only.

Double Trouble
2nd-November-2006, 01:14 PM
Errrr... from a newbies (to this forum) perspective this thread seems to be fairly argumentative and we are only discussing whether this forum is becoming too 'hot'. :sick:

I know I'm too new here to comment on historical incidents for you long term people on this forum, but I'm very keen on meeting some new people here and being nice and so forth.

I mean I work along the lines of if I have nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all. :nice:

BORING.....!

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 01:17 PM
BORING.....!

See, I borrowed Witty's gag but you just couldn't resist could you? :rolleyes:

Lory
2nd-November-2006, 01:17 PM
Time for more moderators?

Un-contentious question.. can you give examples of threads/posts you would have liked to see moderated more stringently?

Its hard to make personal judgements about how each individual feels about having a 'personal attack' on them.

Some may wish the post to stay, as they believe that it shows the 'poster' in a worse light than them. And therefore wish the post to stay.

Some may get very upset and in which case, if they reported it, we would remove it immediately

Anyone can report a post that concerns them and we (moderators) could then make a decision to PM the person involved and ask if they were aware if it and if they're happy for it to stay :)

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 01:20 PM
Un-contentious question.. can you give examples of threads/posts you would have liked to see moderated more stringently?


None.

Unless, as you say, it's a personal comment about a specific person, and that person objects.

Although, as you also say, most of the personal attacks that have taken place, have shown the poster in a worse light than the person that they are attacking...

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 01:52 PM
Un-contentious question.. can you give examples of threads/posts you would have liked to see moderated more stringently?

I'd be very interested in seeing this thread moderated more strongly as an experiment :flower:

Lory
2nd-November-2006, 01:53 PM
I'd be very interested in seeing this thread moderated more strongly as an experiment :flower:

How, exactly?

MartinHarper
2nd-November-2006, 01:59 PM
The second the forum becomes so heavily moderated that you can't speak your mind, is the second that everyone with an opinion will start using other forums instead.

It's possible to express opinions without being rude/aggressive/etc.

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 02:00 PM
How, exactly?
Ok how about posts 14,38, 39, and 49 on this thread?

Before I upset Witty et al, no I didn't take offence :flower: , but as Shodan pointed out they do come across as unnecessarily arguementative. I'm interested in whether the Moderators feel they need to be moderated seeing as that's the essence of this thread.

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 02:04 PM
Un-contentious question.. can you give examples of threads/posts you would have liked to see moderated more stringently? I think that some of the nonsense that led to David B leaving could have been better handled. Also some of the stuff concerning Simon Borland and the Hippodrome got a bit nasty.


Its hard to make personal judgements about how each individual feels about having a 'personal attack' on them. Indeed, I don't envy your task.


Some may wish the post to stay, as they believe that it shows the 'poster' in a worse light than them. And therefore wish the post to stay. I think I'd prefer to see bad posts stay in place, but a private (or if needed, public) warning given to the poster.


Some may get very upset and in which case, if they reported it, we would remove it immediately I think I'd prefer to see a post edited in this case to show that someone said something which was found to be unacceptable.

Most of what the moderators do we are blind to – we don't see posts or threads that have been deleted, we don't see warnings given to posters. Perhaps because of this, we just assume there are no controls...


Anyone can report a post that concerns them and we (moderators) could then make a decision to PM the person involved and ask if they were aware if it and if they're happy for it to stay :)
I rarely have reported a post – I think I've only ever reported spam. I'm assuming that the moderators are watching these kinds of threads I've referred to, and acting accordingly.

We're told that the moderators don't have time to read everything and that you rely on people reporting things. If it's such a time-consuming task then perhaps more moderators could share the load.

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 02:06 PM
Think I'll go and poke some sleepy, dangerous animals with sticks now, just to see if they have a sense of humour. :love:

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 02:06 PM
Ultimately that could kill the forum off altogether. Imminent death of the forum predicted! :D


Whether that's because people feel unable to speak out or because the extra work leads to charges for registering to pay for the moderators extra time. Do the moderators get paid for their time at present? :confused:

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 02:08 PM
Ok how about posts 14,38, 39, and 49 on this thread?


Definitely not!

I'm not really worried about a bit of bad language. It's just a language deficiency on the part of the person posting, rather than anything else :flower:

So, apart from sh1t, and b0ll0cks, I don't see anything in any of those threads that I'd even consider remotely in need of moderation. We are after all adults here. And some mild disagreement is inevitable in a forum that gets as many posts per day as this one.

I really don't want to be wrapped in cotton wool, and prevented climbing trees, or going outside after dark, or any of the other things that kids don't seem to be able to do today. Especially now I'm an adult.

There have been threads and posts here that I have thought maybe should be moderated in some way (and most have). Those definitely don't count in that bracket.

MartinHarper
2nd-November-2006, 02:14 PM
I'm not really worried about a bit of bad language. It's just a language deficiency on the part of the person posting, rather than anything else :flower:

Pointless bad language bores me rather than offends me.
So... I guess I should neg-rep it rather than report it. :)

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 02:16 PM
Ok how about posts 14,38, 39, and 49 on this thread?

Before I upset Witty et al, no I didn't take offence :flower: , but as Shodan pointed out they do come across as unnecessarily arguementative. I'm interested in whether the Moderators feel they need to be moderated seeing as that's the essence of this thread.

Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. You couldn't upset me in any way, shape or form.

In no way were any of those posts, argumentative or horrible. I think you're being way to sensitive.

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 02:18 PM
Pointless bad language bores me rather than offends me.
So... I guess I should neg-rep it rather than report it. :)

We all thought that you did already!! :whistle:

Gus
2nd-November-2006, 02:25 PM
I really don't want to be wrapped in cotton wool, and prevented climbing trees, or going outside after dark, or any of the other things that kids don't seem to be able to do today. Especially now I'm an adult.True, but there are things said on the Forum that people wouldn't dare say to someone face to face. If such things had been said in public it could very quickly lead to semething un pleasant kicking off ... so why should it be tolerated here? I fully aknowledge its sometimes difficult to draw a line but becasue we are 'adults' that doesn't excuse us from our social obligations of respect and manners ... in fact quite the opposite.

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 02:27 PM
Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. You couldn't upset me in any way, shape or form.

Good to know :flower:

In no way were any of those posts, argumentative or horrible.
And I took them in the context they were intended.

But they can be read as being argumentative (horrible is a bit strong, but certainly rude) as without smilies they can be taken at face value.

There's a big difference to me between

BORING!!!!

and

BORING!!! :wink:


I think you're being way to sensitive.
And you may well be right - which is why I'm interested in where the Moderators feel the boundaries should lie. There's also the simple question of how many other sensitive types are on the Forum who don't post because of remarks they view as being overly hostile.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 02:27 PM
True, but there are things said on the Forum that people wouldn't dare say to someone face to face. If such things had been said in public it could very quickly lead to semething un pleasant kicking off ... so why should it be tolerated here?Precisely because unlike in public, it won't lead to something unpleasant kicking off. You can actually say what you think, without artificial constraints.

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 02:34 PM
True, but there are things said on the Forum that people wouldn't dare say to someone face to face. If such things had been said in public it could very quickly lead to semething un pleasant kicking off ... so why should it be tolerated here? I fully aknowledge its sometimes difficult to draw a line but becasue we are 'adults' that doesn't excuse us from our social obligations of respect and manners ... in fact quite the opposite.

I agree. And the next line of my post which you didn't quote, said that there have been things on the forum that I have thought should have been moderated. And most have been.

But I don't want the forum to turn (back?) into a lovey, dovey place, where everyone is just 'nice' to everyone else, and there's no real interesting discussion....

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 02:36 PM
Precisely because unlike in public, it won't lead to something unpleasant kicking off. You can actually say what you think, without artificial constraints.
It's one thing to "say what you think", it's quite another for it to be used as a licence to attack people.

Society needs rules. People are always going to rub each other up the wrong way, that's just life. Ettiquette helps smooth things over. If it comes down to whoever has the sharpest wit is "right", well then I hope they're an excellent dancer and give good advice.

Lou
2nd-November-2006, 02:39 PM
Ok how about posts 14,38, 39, and 49 on this thread?
I + repped at least one of those posts as I thought the author made a good point (but I'm not sensitive to swe@r1ng!).


There's also the simple question of how many other sensitive types are on the Forum who don't post because of remarks they view as being overly hostile.

Ahh.. but they can comfort themselves with the thought that one day they'll inherit the Earth. :nice:

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 02:41 PM
But I don't want the forum to turn (back?) into a lovey, dovey place, where everyone is just 'nice' to everyone else, and there's no real interesting discussion.... Is it not possible to be nice *and* interesting? :confused:

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 02:42 PM
Is it not possible to be nice *and* interesting? :confused:Most people on this forum who try to both fail in at least one of them.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 02:44 PM
It's one thing to "say what you think", it's quite another for it to be used as a licence to attack people. What if what you think is that the other person is a brainless dolt who shouldn't be allowed within fifty feet of a keyboard? How can you say that, without making it sound "personal"?

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 02:44 PM
Is it not possible to be nice *and* interesting? :confused:

Possibly. But not all the time! :flower:

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 02:44 PM
What if what you think is that the other person is a brainless dolt who shouldn't be allowed within fifty feet of a keyboard? How can you say that, without making it sound "personal"?

I can't rep you again yet. But I did laugh*! :rofl:






*Second thought: Unless you were talking about me! :tears:

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 02:45 PM
What if what you think is that the other person is a brainless dolt who shouldn't be allowed within fifty feet of a keyboard? How can you say that, without making it sound "personal"?

Ask them if they still have the box for their PC/Laptop/PDA :D

Do you?

Andy McGregor
2nd-November-2006, 02:47 PM
Or did you want to go back a little further?
AndyMcGregor
MikeyOoh! A list with me on it. What a shame it also contains Mikey.

I would like to point out that being listed with Mikey does not mean we have anything in common. Something I believe Mikey would also point out - OK, so the only thing we probably agree about is that we have nothing in common :confused:

On the subject of this thread, I think that the joining of an individual can make the forum much less fun and raise the temperature for some people more than others. I used to post here a lot. Then an individual started picking on me, over and over again and the resultant arguments made me look bad. I used reaching 5,000 posts as a convenient way to exit what was becoming a silly situation for me. That person no longer posts much so I look in from time to time and chip in when I've got something to say.

But it's unlikely that I'll ever go back to the situation where I started contentious threads on days when the forum seemed a bit slow :devil:

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 02:48 PM
. . . .the comfort I take from that is that people really care about things - if they didn't care they wouldn't bother to speak up. . . . .


Wise words young lady!
and very spooky - I sat in my car with a mate going on about the forum and a few other dance related issues as I saw them. He remarked that over the years we've known each other he'd never really noticed how passionate I could be about my issues. That obviously turns into forthright though.

Hit somebodies special little emotion buttons and you'll get get more response than you expected. This is the Human animal at work in its purest form. Like sex (always try and bring sex into an argument it's a great leveller) little movements often lead to the biggest orgasms.
Start a fight with someone who feels passionately about the subject and you could be in trouble.

Look at Iraq - they (the baddies) are willing to die for their cause we (errr the not so baddies I think could possibly be fair here although I won't argue on that point {strange I know}) don't want to die regardless. We can never win.

straycat
2nd-November-2006, 02:51 PM
What if what you think is that the other person is a brainless dolt who shouldn't be allowed within fifty feet of a keyboard? How can you say that, without making it sound "personal"?

You can't - because that's your personal opinion of them, not of their posts. You could, however, point out in a non-emotive fashion what's wrong with what they're saying - which, considering that you're clearly an intellectual giant, while they're a brainless dolt who's broken the fifty foot exclusion zone again - is likely to be pretty easy. :wink:

Why - did you have someone specific in mind? :devil:

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 02:53 PM
On the subject of this thread, I think that the joining of an individual can make the forum much less fun and raise the temperature for some people more than others. I used to post here a lot. Then an individual started picking on me, over and over again and the resultant arguments made me look bad. I used reaching 5,000 posts as a convenient way to exit what was becoming a silly situation for me. That person no longer posts much so I look in from time to time and chip in when I've got something to say.


Pray tell . . . . .?

can't be arsed to got back through 5000 posts to find out



But it's unlikely that I'll ever go back to the situation where I started contentious threads on days when the forum seemed a bit slow :devil:

Wish some others would take that line too!

Gadget
2nd-November-2006, 03:05 PM
It used to be that most arguments were arguing about how someone posted and how it could be misconstrude as being insulting.

Now people are just insulting.

:tears:
{Just shows a lack of imagination IMHO... for a dance form that relies on imagination to dance well: those that show such a poor imagination can only be showing themselves as poor dancers :whistle:}

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 03:08 PM
You could, however, point out in a non-emotive fashion what's wrong with what they're sayingTrue, and that's why I don't post personal attacks.

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 03:09 PM
What if what you think is that the other person is a brainless dolt who shouldn't be allowed within fifty feet of a keyboard? How can you say that, without making it sound "personal"?
If they truly are a "brainless dolt", then nothing you say will make a difference, so it's better not to bother.

If they have any sort of brain (and most of us have, along with feelings), I'm sure they'd prefer to hear your opinion on why they are mistaken in their beliefs, without needing you to get personal.

Here's a couple of phrases which so many folks around here would do well to practice...

"I believe you are mistaken, because ..."

"That's an interesting point of view, but I think ..."

:flower:

Shodan
2nd-November-2006, 03:20 PM
Errrr... from a newbies (to this forum) perspective this thread seems to be fairly argumentative and we are only discussing whether this forum is becoming too 'hot'. :sick:

I know I'm too new here to comment on historical incidents for you long term people on this forum, but I'm very keen on meeting some new people here and being nice and so forth.

I mean I work along the lines of if I have nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all.

BORING.....!
Maybe so, but I have chocolate eclairs. :yum:

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 03:24 PM
True, and that's why I don't post personal attacks.

30 secs on the Search engine came up with this


You simply haven't got a clue about who is actually using which statistics, and how. Please - credit somebody, somewhere in the universe with some intelligence, apart from you.

Which goes back to my original point that different people seem to have widely varying ideas about what is acceptable and the possible need to draw a clearer line

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 03:27 PM
30 secs on the Search engine came up with this

That isn't a personal attack. What is wrong with you today Ghost? You're being argumentative and un necessarily obnoxious.

Cruella
2nd-November-2006, 03:27 PM
30 secs on the Search engine came up with this

And this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=300176#post300176) :whistle:

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 03:28 PM
That isn't a personal attack. What is wrong with you today Ghost? You're being argumentative and un necessarily obnoxious.

Sorry you typed too fast - I editted my post while you were posting

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 03:28 PM
And this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=300176#post300176) :whistle:

That isn't a personal attack either, purely fact.

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 03:30 PM
And this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=300176#post300176) :whistle:
Good catch! :respect:

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 03:35 PM
True, but there are things said on the Forum that people wouldn't dare say to someone face to face.

There are?
I wouldn't say anything behind someone's back or on-line that I wouldn't be prepared to say to their face.
Mind you, if I know I'm unlikely to ever meet them... :whistle:

Lory
2nd-November-2006, 03:43 PM
I enjoy intelligent debate and I can see that sometimes there's a fine line between, saying exactly what one really feels and being insulting. It depends on which side your viewing the comment from.

e.g. if someone reviews a venue and it comes off less favourably, the venue manager 'might' see that as a personal attack.:angry: Someone else might see it as very informative. :cheers: In an ideal world the venue manager would come on here and either defend his case, explaining the situation and if need be, take onboard the criticism and rectify the problems. :clap: Then report back again and receive his well deserved pat on the back!:worthy:

Back to the heated forum debates....Unfortunately, it takes a degree of intelligence and education to be able to articulate exactly what one means, without causing too much offence and the same applies to being able to comprehend what 'other's' mean in such debates. :waycool: Sadly, we have a very wide spectrum of intellect on here :devil: :whistle:

The other thing is, we all appreciate wit but not always in the same form...Some people's idea of 'wit' comes in the form of short outbursts of profanities and playful insults to one's mates...other people hate it!!

We all react differently!

Some people get riled up and take the bait, some choose to roll their eyes at it and move on.:rolleyes: ;)

My position 'IS' a difficult one, as I don't feel I would be justified in imposing 'my own' set of values on this forum, I think it would be extremely narrow minded but if given direction and informed that people have become offended, I WILL do something about it!

The saddest thing is when people just leave or stop posting, without even telling us they've been unhappy about something, we're not mind readers!:innocent: :tears:

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 03:59 PM
I Back to the heated forum debates....Unfortunately, it takes a degree of intelligence and education to be able to articulate exactly what one means, without causing too much offence and the same applies to being able to comprehend what 'other's' mean in such debates. :waycool: Sadly, we have a very wide spectrum of intellect on here :devil: :whistle:



Gosh!

To highlight that i feel is a little demeaning.

Should we now start a remedial section of the forum?

Who would be headmaster, who the admission clerk

Double Trouble
2nd-November-2006, 04:00 PM
I enjoy intelligent debate and I can see that sometimes there's a fine line between, saying exactly what one really feels and being insulting. It depends on which side your viewing the comment from.

e.g. if someone reviews a venue and it comes off less favourably, the venue manager 'might' see that as a personal attack.:angry: Someone else might see it as very informative. :cheers: In an ideal world the venue manager would come on here and either defend his case, explaining the situation and if need be, take onboard the criticism and rectify the problems. :clap: Then report back again and receive his well deserved pat on the back!:worthy:

Back to the heated forum debates....Unfortunately, it takes a degree of intelligence and education to be able to articulate exactly what one means, without causing too much offence and the same applies to being able to comprehend what 'other's' mean in such debates. :waycool: Sadly, we have a very wide spectrum of intellect on here :devil: :whistle:

The other thing is, we all appreciate wit but not always in the same form...Some people's idea of 'wit' comes in the form of short outbursts of profanities and playful insults to one's mates...other people hate it!!

We all react differently!

Some people get riled up and take the bait, some choose to roll their eyes at it and move on.:rolleyes: ;)

My position 'IS' a difficult one, as I don't feel I would be justified in imposing 'my own' set of values on this forum, I think it would be extremely narrow minded but if given direction and informed that people have become offended, I WILL do something about it!

The saddest thing is when people just leave or stop posting, without even telling us they've been unhappy about something, we're not mind readers!:innocent: :tears:

You wrote "Sadly, we have a very wide spectrum of intellect on here".

There's nothing sad about that, even if it is true.

Maybe we should all take a test before we join & you can vet us all to see if we meet your expectations.

Being abusive has nothing to do with intellect. You either speak your mind or you don't.

Lory
2nd-November-2006, 04:04 PM
You wrote "Sadly, we have a very wide spectrum of intellect on here".



Sorry :flower: That was my very weak attempt at humour :blush: :o

Double Trouble
2nd-November-2006, 04:08 PM
Sorry :flower: That was my very weak attempt at humour :blush: :o

Hilarious.....There goes another rib...!

Of all the messages I've read today, your last one was more offensive and narrow minded than all the others put together, you even managed to pretend you hadn't meant it to be.

David Franklin
2nd-November-2006, 04:09 PM
Gosh!

To highlight that i feel is a little demeaning.Well, if you can't take the heat...

straycat
2nd-November-2006, 04:11 PM
You wrote "Sadly, we have a very wide spectrum of intellect on here".

There's nothing sad about that, even if it is true.

Taken in context, this was an intentionally funny remark. Taking it more seriously though - it means something quite different from: "some people are intelligent, and others not" - it means that different people perceive the same things in different ways.



Maybe we should all take a test before we join & you can vet us all to see if we meet your expectations.

Back when I joined, there was a four hour exam before you could gain membership (though there was a cut-down two and a half hour version if you could present your Ceroc membership card). I wasn't aware that things had changed that much - are you saying Franck's removed that requirement completely? :tears:



Being abusive has nothing to do with intellect.
True.


You either speak your mind or you don't.
It has nothing to do with that either. You can speak your mind, even when very angry with someone, without being abusive.

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 04:14 PM
Of all the messages I've read today, your last one was more offensive and narrow minded than all the others put together, you even managed to pretend you hadn't meant it to be.

Knowing Lory, it probably wasn't meant to be any of that. Lory is the least narrow minded and offensive person I've met! :D

straycat
2nd-November-2006, 04:19 PM
Hilarious.....There goes another rib...!

Well - at least that'll give you something useful to say on the NHS thread ;)



Of all the messages I've read today, your last one was more offensive and narrow minded than all the others put together, you even managed to pretend you hadn't meant it to be.

And yet I found it open-minded, well expressed, and generous, which nicely illustrates some of the points people have made about different perceptions.

I take no issue at your finding the post offensive, but what you do here is accuse Lory of being intentionally offensive, rather than allowing for the fact that the offense you felt might not have been intended on her part.

CJ
2nd-November-2006, 04:27 PM
Hilarious.....There goes another rib...!

Of all the messages I've read today, your last one was more offensive and narrow minded than all the others put together, you even managed to pretend you hadn't meant it to be.

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you ever met Lory?!?:eek:

My dear Double Trouble.

Welcome to the forum. I hope that within your next 40 or so posts, you will gain more insight than you have with the first 40.:flower:

There are many types of people on the forum. There are many life experiences, intellects, cretinous points of view and closed minds that have contributed over the piece. I look forward to discovering where exactly, your inputs will lie...

Yours,

CJ.
P.S. A wise lady once wrote that what we see, and what troubles us, in other people, we would do well to look at ourselves and see what it is, and why:flower:

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 04:30 PM
Taken in context, this was an intentionally funny remark. Taking it more seriously though - it means something quite different from: "some people are intelligent, and others not" - it means that different people perceive the same things in different ways.



I take no issue at your finding the post offensive, but what you do here is accuse Lory of being intentionally offensive, rather than allowing for the fact that the offense you felt might not have been intended on her part.

You're trying to make the point about meaning being read into things when it isn't neccessarily there, but I can't tell if you're deliberately doing the same with DT's posts for sarcastic effect or whether you're being completely hypocritical?

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 04:32 PM
30 secs on the Search engine came up with this
And this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=300176#post300176) :whistle:Neither of those are comments about the poster; they're comments about what he posts. So neither qualify as personal attacks, by the distinction drawn by Straycat. (Ghost: perhaps you need to re-read the first one to see what I actually said.) Whereas Gus has actually posted personal attack about me, and then found himself apologising for them afterwards. (I don't actually mind one way or the other, but it's interesting to see the hypocrisy at work.)

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 04:37 PM
Well, if you can't take the heat...

actually I was waiting till you'd finished in the kitchen david so i could have a warm

straycat
2nd-November-2006, 04:49 PM
You're trying to make the point about meaning being read into things when it isn't neccessarily there, but I can't tell if you're deliberately doing the same with DT's posts for sarcastic effect or whether you're being completely hypocritical?

So you too were exempted from the forum entrance exam? :wink: :devil: :flower:

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 04:51 PM
So you too were exempted from the forum entrance exam? :wink: :devil: :flower:

No, I cheated. :na:

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 04:55 PM
Neither of those are comments about the poster; they're comments about what he posts. (Ghost: perhaps you need to re-read the first one to see what I actually said.)

To me

"You simply haven't got a clue about who is actually using which statistics, and how."
Is about the post (I included it for context / fairness)

"Please - credit somebody, somewhere in the universe with some intelligence, apart from you." is about the poster

But that's my point, different people see it different ways. Ducasi, Cruella and I see your remark about Gus as an attack. You and Witty don't.

Unfortunately because you believe your remarks aren't hurtful doesn't mean that they don't hurt people.

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 04:55 PM
No, I cheated. :na:

Oh, I get it. Like humour. Only different:rolleyes:

Double Trouble
2nd-November-2006, 04:56 PM
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you ever met Lory?!?:eek:

My dear Double Trouble.

Welcome to the forum. I hope that within your next 40 or so posts, you will gain more insight than you have with the first 40.:flower:

There are many types of people on the forum. There are many life experiences, intellects, cretinous points of view and closed minds that have contributed over the piece. I look forward to discovering where exactly, your inputs will lie...

Yours,

CJ.
P.S. A wise lady once wrote that what we see, and what troubles us, in other people, we would do well to look at ourselves and see what it is, and why:flower:

Thanks so much for your message, oh wise one.

No I have not met Lory, but then, you have never met me, so take your wise lady and do a pretzel on her.

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 04:59 PM
Oh, I get it. Like humour. Only different:rolleyes:

Get back in your cupboard. :angry:

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 05:04 PM
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



so take your wise lady and do a pretzel on her.


Popcorn anyone? :eek:


Get back in your cupboard. :angry:

If I throw a stick, will you leave?

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 05:06 PM
If there's been one good thing about this thread, it's that it's highlighted a few extra folks to add to my ignore list... :wink:

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 05:07 PM
If I throw a stick, will you leave?

You'll have to try harder than that. :rolleyes:

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 05:08 PM
"Please - credit somebody, somewhere in the universe with some intelligence, apart from you." is about the posterNo, in fact. I was asking BigDjiver to remember that he's not the only intelligent person to be concerned with getting people to come to dance. In other words, please believe there are other intelligent people around." It's not really an attack of any kind.

Is that any clearer?
Whereas Gus has actually posted personal attack about me, and then found himself apologising for them afterwards.Spoke too soon - I've just been informed by Gus that he didn't mean to apologise after all.

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 05:14 PM
If there's been one good thing about this thread, it's that it's highlighted a few extra folks to add to my ignore list... :wink:
Oh, the other cool thing about this thread, 'cos of where it is, is that rep is worth double points! :D

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 05:15 PM
No, in fact. I was asking BigDjiver to remember that he's not the only intelligent person to be concerned with getting people to come to dance. In other words, please believe there are other intelligent people around." It's not really an attack of any kind.

Is that any clearer?
I understand the concept that's being conveyed, but personally feel that it's an attack in the way you've expressed it.

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 05:18 PM
I understand the concept that's being conveyed, but personally feel that it's an attack in the way you've expressed it.

***. Was it aimed at you? No Well then Let it go :devil:

IMO Too many freaks, not enough circuses.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 05:20 PM
I understand the concept that's being conveyed, but personally feel that it's an attack in the way you've expressed it.But you've already agreed that you're over-sensitive to that kind of thing.

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 05:22 PM
But you've already agreed that you're over-sensitive to that kind of thing.

Yup. Kinda. Or maybe you're not sensitive enough.......

But that's a debate for someone far wiser than me :cheers:

Stuart M
2nd-November-2006, 05:23 PM
Oh, the other cool thing about this thread, 'cos of where it is, is that rep is worth double points! :D
Only a true genius could have worked that out. :worthy: :worthy: :crawl: (oops)



Is there a sweep yet, on how many posts before this thread goes Outside?

My betting is on the first "I can't believe how offensive you're all being" post following GaG's first post on the thread, if it ever arrives.

David Bailey
2nd-November-2006, 05:24 PM
Well.


Hmmm.


This has been fun, hasn't it?


I started this thread with a reasonably open mind - if I had to choose, I'd have put "just right" as the temperature.

Now, on reviewing this lot, I think Franck has made a good point - the general level of discussion has got less friendly, in my opinion, and there's a bit too much bitchery going on, and we could probably do with toning down the vitriol level a bit. There's always a balance to be drawn, but I think some more control mechanisms, and more use of such mechanisms, wouldn't be a problem.

I also think we could do with a few more moderators (I'm not volunteering, I'm not to be trusted with any power), given the increase in post rate and the apparent increase in "negativity" some people have mentioned.

I'm very glad to see DF back, and I agree it's a shame that others such as DavidB have left. In fact, I can't really think of anyone who I don't want contributing to the forum, even if only to disagree with.

Nuts - I hate myself for saying this, but I want a poll. Moderators, can we have one added to this thread please? ("Too hot" / "Just right" / "Not hot enough")

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 05:26 PM
Yup. Kinda. Or maybe you're not sensitive enough.......

But that's a debate for someone far wiser than me :cheers:No need for debate. I'll own up to that one without prompting.

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 05:31 PM
Is there any way of adding a poll to this thread?




Nuts - I hate myself for saying this, but I want a poll. Moderators, can we have one added to this thread please? ("Too hot" / "Just right" / "Not hot enough")

Good idea :whistle: though it's probably best if it isn't public so all the wallflowers can vote in safety

David Bailey
2nd-November-2006, 05:34 PM
Good idea :whistle: though it's probably best if it isn't public so all the wallflowers can vote in safety
Good point - thanks.

Hold on - :eek: - I meant "NO! How DARE you say such a thing! You complete and utter fool!" :angry: :mad:

(Sorry, I forgot which thread I was on for a minute there :blush: )

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 05:37 PM
Good idea :whistle: though it's probably best if it isn't public so all the wallflowers can vote in safety

Why? If you have an opinion share it, don't hide behind anything :mad:

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 05:39 PM
don't hide behind anything :mad:

Like being invisible on the forum? :flower:

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 05:41 PM
Like being invisible on the forum? :flower:

Being invisible is different. I am not hiding my opinion.
*** how can you compare that? :watt:

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 05:44 PM
What good is a poll?

We have what we have - it is a working forum

There are threads with lots of lovey dovey stuff (well i assume that sorta thing goes on in the 'singlets so far' thread {that thread is about vests isn't it?}) and then there are threads for the boys and WittyBird to exercise their 'witty put downs' (that was not a suggestion WittyBird it's a saying okay?).

As long as no blood is drawn surely it's all ok??

Gav
2nd-November-2006, 05:45 PM
Being invisible is different. I am not hiding my opinion.
*** how can you compare that? :watt:

Like shooting fish in a barrel! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

MartinHarper
2nd-November-2006, 05:45 PM
Being abusive has nothing to do with intellect. You either speak your mind or you don't.

I find that more intelligent and/or better educated people tend to be better at making their point whilst conforming to rules about politeness, language, and suchlike. It comes with a wider vocabulary, an aptitude for lateral thinking, and that kind of thing. Though such people often struggle to communicate well with stupid people, which balances things out a bit.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 05:50 PM
Though such people often struggle to communicate well with stupid people, which balances things out a bit.:rofl:

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 05:53 PM
I find that more intelligent and/or better educated people tend to be better at making their point whilst conforming to rules about politeness, language, and suchlike. It comes with a wider vocabulary, an aptitude for lateral thinking, and that kind of thing. Though such people often struggle to communicate well with stupid people, which balances things out a bit.

Utter Toss!




Sorry making a point

CJ
2nd-November-2006, 05:56 PM
There are threads with lots of lovey dovey stuff (well i assume that sorta thing goes on in the 'singlets so far' thread {that thread is about vests isn't it?}) and then there are threads for the boys and WittyBird to exercise their 'witty put downs' (that was not a suggestion WittyBird it's a saying okay?).

As long as no blood is drawn surely it's all ok??

I think you'll find she practices going down more than putting down...

WittyBird
2nd-November-2006, 05:59 PM
I think you'll find she practices going down more than putting down...

You'd know that how? :D

Ghost
2nd-November-2006, 06:01 PM
Why? If you have an opinion share it
I have, but I'd expect the more shy types to be more open to voting on a private poll.

:flower:

Andy McGregor
2nd-November-2006, 06:03 PM
I find that more intelligent and/or better educated people tend to be better at making their point whilst conforming to rules about politeness, language, and suchlike. It comes with a wider vocabulary, an aptitude for lateral thinking, and that kind of thing. Though such people often struggle to communicate well with stupid people, which balances things out a bit.Well said sir!

Please note, this is one of the few intelligent writings of Mr Harper. Remember this moment, it will not come again for some time as the guy is usually bigoted and ignorant :wink:

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 06:03 PM
You'd know that how? :D

Gosh :whistle:

So the rumour about you giving out Birthday Blow Jobs is TRUE!


:devil: :flower: :clap: :respect:


Cool (as they say in Iceland)

straycat
2nd-November-2006, 06:04 PM
Utter Toss!


Sorry making a point

Or, perhaps, reinforcing one? :devil:

ducasi
2nd-November-2006, 06:05 PM
Only a true genius could have worked that out. :worthy: :worthy: :crawl: (oops)
Sorry, you're wasting your compliments on someone who can't rep you. Also, you'd be better trying to butter up someone with 4 rep power points... ;)

Trousers
2nd-November-2006, 06:07 PM
Or, perhaps, reinforcing one? :devil:

Only really intelligent people can see the Emperor's new clothes you know!

MartinHarper
2nd-November-2006, 06:08 PM
Please note, this is one of the few intelligent writings of Mr Harper. Remember this moment, it will not come again for some time as the guy is usually bigoted and ignorant :wink:

You're just jealous that I look better in a skirt than you. :)

straycat
2nd-November-2006, 06:14 PM
Only really intelligent people can see the Emperor's new clothes you know!

Oh - that's what it was? I thought he was just queueing to see Wittybird for his Imperial Birthday Present....

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 07:15 PM
Oh. I am enjoying this thread. That probably means that I'm argumentative and stupid though! :rolleyes:

Minnie M
2nd-November-2006, 09:43 PM
You're just jealous that I look better in a skirt than you. :)

:rofl: :rofl: true !!

Lynn
2nd-November-2006, 09:58 PM
It's a shame there's so much 'heated debate' (in terms of personal attacks) but the comfort I take from that is that people really care about things - if they didn't care they wouldn't bother to speak up.Yes some threads get heated because people care about that subject - but other times its just stirring and being unpleasant because some people seem to find some sort of pleasure in that.
But I don't want the forum to turn (back?) into a lovey, dovey place, where everyone is just 'nice' to everyone else, and there's no real interesting discussion....No - but when a thread turns nasty any interesting discussion gets lost in the vitriol and most of the people whose opinion I would like to read on the subject simply stop posting on that thread.

Feelingpink
2nd-November-2006, 11:25 PM
Yes some threads get heated because people care about that subject - but other times its just stirring and being unpleasant because some people seem to find some sort of pleasure in that. ...Yes. The parts I usually don't like are when someone who feels passionately about their subject crosses swords with someone who is just out for an 'intellectual' ping pong match and simply wants to score points, rather than being strongly opinionated or trying to understand the other point of view. This is when the 'arguments' become an excuse to selectively quote others and lack integrity. These diminish the forum as they prevent others from wanting to share their opinions, since they will be treated with the contempt they do not deserve.

TheTramp
3rd-November-2006, 12:45 AM
No - but when a thread turns nasty any interesting discussion gets lost in the vitriol and most of the people whose opinion I would like to read on the subject simply stop posting on that thread.

Why does the fact that I said that I'm quite happy with non-personal arguments, mean that people are assuming that I condone things like the above.

Well-reasoned arguments on the subject are interesting. Vitriol isn't. End of story.....

Trouble
3rd-November-2006, 01:18 AM
absolutely gutted i missed the action on this thread. Worked too hard today clearly. Never mind, i'll catch the next one... anyone got any popcorn left :D

Andy McGregor
3rd-November-2006, 02:02 AM
You're just jealous that I look better in a skirt than you. :)This is a complete flight of fancy. I look better in short skirts than most people as they show off my best assets:whistle:

Minnie M
3rd-November-2006, 08:57 AM
This is a complete flight of fancy. I look better in short skirts than most people as they show off my best assets:whistle:
are we talking about Lory's photo again :eek:
(sorry Andy couldn't resist it !)

CJ
3rd-November-2006, 09:06 AM
are we talking about Lory's photo again :eek:
(sorry Andy couldn't resist it !)

What photo is this?!?!?:whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Lory
3rd-November-2006, 09:53 AM
What photo is this?!?!?:whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

The photo is one I took at Southport of Mr McGregor, bent over, in a pearl G-string, showing rather more of his 'assets' than he intended :really: or anyone else really wanted to see, for that matter! :sick: :rofl:

TheTramp
3rd-November-2006, 09:55 AM
The photo is one I took at Southport of Mr McGregor, bent over, in a pearl G-string, showing rather more of his 'assets' than he intended :really: or anyone else really wanted to see, for that matter! :sick: :rofl:

Yeah. Thanks. Why do people do things like this to me when I've just eaten!! :tears:

Lynn
3rd-November-2006, 10:08 AM
Why does the fact that I said that I'm quite happy with non-personal arguments, mean that people are assuming that I condone things like the above.

Well-reasoned arguments on the subject are interesting. Vitriol isn't. End of story.....Not meaning you specifically - more that your comment is one sometimes used as an excuse to just be harsh for the sake of it 'we don't want to be all lovey-dovey so lets just attack each other instead'.

I agree that people can disagree.

Caro
3rd-November-2006, 10:41 AM
I think people who tend to be seen as disrespectful (hence add to the 'heat' of the forum) are for various sort of reasons which can include:
- wanting to be funny (at what can be felt the expense of somebody else),
- wanting to be noticed, just spicing things up a bit - there's been lots of those lately :wink:
- being very passionate/emotional about a topic and not willing to consider a totally different point of view
- just not understanding somebody else (usually associated with one or both of the parties intellectual abilities and their skill at expressing clearly their opinions, as others have said) and reacting disproportionately
- plain rudeness/ignorance which reveals more about the poster than anybody towards whom the attack is addressed.
- cultural / languages differences, i.e. British people tend to be seen as quite reserved and polite in comparison to continental Europeans. Also people for whom English is not their first language can use words whose meaning they don't fully understand. :whistle:

Of course, there are also very disrespectful people who just try to put other people in boxes :whistle: :wink:

I usually find that once you have sorted out which one the 'hot' poster might be, it's easier to find the appropriate response. Of course you could just get it all wrong and worsen things :devil: :rofl: .

The forum is made of the same people you see at work, at home, out socialising etc. There's plenty of different styles, plenty of different reasons why people behave the way they do, and that's just fine - they're all valid.

I'm happy with the forum the way it is, I don't get involved in heated debates if I don't want to (or am just not feeling funny/passionate enough to post), and like most when bored I find they usually make a fun reading.

But I do regret that some people find the forum / some posters so rude that they would not dare posting, or worse, leave and deprive us of their enlightened contributions. (DavidB comes to mind...:sad: )

David Bailey
3rd-November-2006, 03:21 PM
Where are all the voters?

I thought this was a contentious issue, but we've only got 16 people voting :tears:

Come on, you lazy lot, get out there and VOTE!

WittyBird
3rd-November-2006, 03:23 PM
Come on, you lazy lot, get out there and VOTE!

No can't be bothered it's a private poll :na:

David Bailey
3rd-November-2006, 03:24 PM
No can't be bothered it's a private poll :na:
In the words of the great Al Murray: "My thread, my rules" :na:

Juju
3rd-November-2006, 03:33 PM
I voted.

Do I get rep?

:D

Caro
3rd-November-2006, 03:39 PM
I voted.

Do I get rep?

:D

:yeah: :whistle: :innocent:

David Bailey
3rd-November-2006, 03:39 PM
I voted.
See, you say that...


Do I get rep?
Amazingly, I've just run out - again, twice in two weeks.

Come back in 24 hours.

Juju
3rd-November-2006, 03:42 PM
Itchy trigger finger?

The forum can't be that bad, then - if you're running out of rep, again... unless it's negative rep.... :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-November-2006, 05:06 PM
Itchy trigger finger?

The forum can't be that bad, then - if you're running out of rep, again...David told me he can't let it build up, the pipes get blocked and that can be dangerous.

Cruella
3rd-November-2006, 05:13 PM
Where are all the voters?

I thought this was a contentious issue, but we've only got 16 people voting :tears:

Come on, you lazy lot, get out there and VOTE!

We're all waiting to see how hot this thread gets first.

Lynn
4th-November-2006, 01:29 AM
Amazingly, I've just run out - again, twice in two weeks. No point in voting then. :whistle:

Huh, run out of rep, you're not much use. *Goes off to other thread to vote for Donna as Moderator*

Andy McGregor
4th-November-2006, 01:32 PM
Yeah. Thanks. Why do people do things like this to me when I've just eaten!! :tears:Is there any time of the day when The Tramp hasn't "just eaten"?:whistle:

Freya
4th-November-2006, 01:37 PM
Is there any time of the day when The Tramp hasn't "just eaten"?:whistle:

When he's asleep????

David Bailey
4th-November-2006, 01:49 PM
Is there any time of the day when The Tramp hasn't "just eaten"?:whistle:
It's a pattern: Eat, Forum, sleep, eat, Forum, sleep... etc.

TheTramp
6th-November-2006, 12:29 PM
It's a pattern: Eat, Forum, sleep, eat, Forum, sleep... etc.

You forgot 'Dance'... :whistle:

bigdjiver
6th-November-2006, 02:01 PM
I find that more intelligent and/or better educated people tend to be better at making their point whilst conforming to rules about politeness, language, and suchlike. It comes with a wider vocabulary, an aptitude for lateral thinking, and that kind of thing. Though such people often struggle to communicate well with stupid people, which balances things out a bit.Not "stupid people". "Less intelligent" and "less informed about the subject" are better ways of expressing it. The communications gap is illustrated throughout history where even well informed and highly intelligent people have failed to grasp what geniuses are telling them. Knowing is one thing, communicating is quite another. Teaching and selling are gifts in themselves.

Ghost
6th-November-2006, 02:21 PM
I like David's idea of trying to find other solutions before we get to the point where all the sheep either leave or become lurkers.



I think we've actually passed that point. :sad:

Just looking at the poll it's a pretty healthy majority for "everything's fine"

WittyBird
6th-November-2006, 02:22 PM
Teaching and selling are gifts in themselves.

He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.

George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950), Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
-----------------------------------------------------------------
To repeat what others have said, requires education; to challenge it, requires brains.
Mary Pettibone Poole, A Glass Eye at a Keyhole, 1938

Ghost
6th-November-2006, 02:30 PM
He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.

George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950), Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. And those who can't teach can kiss my lily white...."
~Grace under Fire

bigdjiver
6th-November-2006, 02:51 PM
No, in fact. I was asking BigDjiver to remember that he's not the only intelligent person to be concerned with getting people to come to dance. In other words, please believe there are other intelligent people around." It's not really an attack of any kind... I have come to this thread quite late. My thanks to Ghost. I regretted ESG's post. I saw it as playing the man, not the ball. A "professional foul" that broke up the "game".

I took that as a personal attack. I have worked in and around IT for decades. I would have to be very stupid indeed not to have seen that there are many, many dedicated, intelligent, hard working and well informed people out there. I am also aware that everybody has weaknesses, blind spots, and makes errors. I regret to say that I believe Ceroc HQ fits into both categories where the database and marketing are concerned.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 03:09 PM
I took that as a personal attack. I have worked in and around IT for decades. I would have to be very stupid indeed not to have seen that there are many, many dedicated, intelligent, hard working and well informed people out there. I am also aware that everybody has weaknesses, blind spots, and makes errors. I regret to say that I believe Ceroc HQ fits into both categories where the database and marketing are concerned.Speaking as one of those people involved (albeit peripherally) in the areas of Ceroc's management that you criticise (and criticise again, and again and again and again, and again) I could - should I chose - take that personally too. But I choose not to. If posting as I did put an end to the rather dull "game" - your word - of moaning about how Ceroc isn't marketed right, then my only regret is that I didn't post it earlier.

Basically your reaction to what's posted - just like everyone else's reaction to what's posted - is entirely within your control. You can make of it what you will.

Ghost
6th-November-2006, 03:44 PM
Basically your reaction to what's posted - just like everyone else's reaction to what's posted - is entirely within your control. You can make of it what you will.
Controlling / changing your reactions is a skill-set though. What if the person the comments are directed to doesn't have the skills?

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 03:46 PM
Controlling / changing your reactions is a skill-set though. What if the person the comments are directed to doesn't have the skills?The Forum is a harmless self-contained arena in which to learn those skills - so it would be a good place to start!

WittyBird
6th-November-2006, 03:47 PM
Controlling / changing your reactions is a skill-set though. What if the person the comments are directed to doesn't have the skills?

I think that just proves a point.:na:

David Bailey
6th-November-2006, 03:53 PM
Just looking at the poll it's a pretty healthy majority for "everything's fine"
Depends how you interpret the data. At the moment it's


Yes, too hot - 32.14%
No, could do with more heat! - 0%
It's just fine as it is. - 60.71%


But note that (as of now) no-one has voted for "too cool". So, another way of looking at it is that nearly a third of people are dissatisfied with the atmosphere, and that no-one thinks it's too luvey-dovey.

Whereas you'd expect a more even distribution if people had a range of opinions. So, at the least, it shows some bias towards "too much heat".

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 03:55 PM
But note that (as of now) no-one has voted for "too cool".Sorry - I did on the other poll, but missed this one. I've fixed that now.

David Bailey
6th-November-2006, 03:58 PM
Sorry - I did on the other poll, but missed this one. I've fixed that now.
:rolleyes:

I knew the fact of observation would alter what's being observed - there's always at least one smartass - but it's still a valid point.

Ghost
6th-November-2006, 04:02 PM
The Forum is a harmless self-contained arena in which to learn those skills - so it would be a good place to start!

But what if a person just wants to discuss dance?

David Franklin
6th-November-2006, 04:10 PM
I knew the fact of observation would alter what's being observed - there's always at least one smartass - but it's still a valid point.More to the point, and as you alluded to earlier with your "too late" comment, there's a strong element of self-selection: the people who really don't like the atmosphere here have either left, or indeed never joined. David and Lily, ChrisA, Jayne and Divissima have either left or good as. A number of teachers I've suggested post here have said they took a look and decided it wasn't something they'd want to be involved in - basically because of all the bitching and negativity.

Still - "the lurkers support me in email" has always been a pretty weak comment. At the end of the day, it's up to the people here to choose what atmosphere they want. It's just a shame that at least from my perspective, the people who leave tend to be the most knowledgable and helpful posters.

Lou
6th-November-2006, 04:21 PM
I don't mind the heat at all. :D

However, I'm finding all the whingeing really depressing. It makes me grumpy. :mad:

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 04:36 PM
More to the point, and as you alluded to earlier with your "too late" comment, there's a strong element of self-selection: the people who really don't like the atmosphere here have either left, or indeed never joined. David and Lily, ChrisA, Jayne and Divissima have either left or good as.As I'm sure you appreciate, David, the same argument cuts both ways. It's feasible that there are people who are put off by all the lovey-dovey stuff, too.

As you acknowledge, the forum is made up by the people who post. Anyone who decides not to post is voluntarily giving up the opportunity to shape it.
A number of teachers I've suggested post here have said they took a look and decided it wasn't something they'd want to be involved in - basically because of all the bitching and negativity.You've mentioned this before. Just out of interest, what is the number of teachers who have said this to you?

David Bailey
6th-November-2006, 04:48 PM
But what if a person just wants to discuss dance?
They probably go elsewhere (http://www.mjda.org/forum/)... :wink:

David Franklin
6th-November-2006, 04:49 PM
Just out of interest, what is the number of teachers who have said this to you?3 or 4 teachers, 1 or 2 "A-list" competitors (not entirely sure who's taught out of that lot). Not a lot in terms of posters. In terms of contributions a pretty big loss, IMHO.

Oh, while we're calling people on statements they've made:


I don't post personal attacks.

OK. Which twit voted for Donna?

EDIT: stupid question. It was Donna.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 05:05 PM
3 or 4 teachers, 1 or 2 "A-list" competitors (not entirely sure who's taught out of that lot). Not a lot in terms of posters. In terms of contributions a pretty big loss, IMHO.I wouldn't dream of calling you, I was simply curious to know how many. 3, then, or 4? 1, or 2?

Oh, while we're calling people on statements they've made:Is it still an insult if it's true? I should point out that Donna herself (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=270267&postcount=48) advertised her IQ as less than 100. In any case, I suspect she's about as offended at being called a twit as I would be.

David Franklin
6th-November-2006, 05:12 PM
3, then, or 4? 1, or 2?Either 3 teachers and two 'A-list' competitors, or 4 teachers and one 'A-list' competitor (I'm not sure whether one of the A-list competitors has taught - though I'm sure they're knowledgeable enough). Before you ask, seeing as at least one expressly said "I wouldn't want to be involved with the forum", I won't mention their names or say anything likely to identify them.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 05:13 PM
Either 3 teachers and two 'A-list' competitors, or 4 teachers and one 'A-list' competitor (I'm not sure whether one of the A-list competitors has taught - though I'm sure they're knowledgeable enough). Before you ask, seeing as at least one expressly said "I wouldn't want to be involved with the forum", I won't mention their names or say anything likely to identify them.I wouldn't dream of asking.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 05:42 PM
Oh, while we're calling people on statements they've made:All right. I've thought about that one again and I agree. It was out of order. Apologies to Donna, I'm sorry.

David Franklin
6th-November-2006, 05:48 PM
All right. I've thought about that one again and I agree. It was out of order. Apologies to Donna, I'm sorry.
:respect: (I'd also agree that as personal insults go, it was a pretty mild one).

TheTramp
6th-November-2006, 07:00 PM
Either 3 teachers and two 'A-list' competitors, or 4 teachers and one 'A-list' competitor (I'm not sure whether one of the A-list competitors has taught - though I'm sure they're knowledgeable enough). Before you ask, seeing as at least one expressly said "I wouldn't want to be involved with the forum", I won't mention their names or say anything likely to identify them.

Which is a shame. Since, as someone said, it's the people who are on the forum that guide the direction that it's going.

Out of interest, these people, have they subsequently become involved in another forum, which is less chit-chat, more dance based, and less 'nasty' (though, I don't think that this one particularly is).

Or are they just not involved in the forum thing at all? Cos everytime I look at another forum which purports to primarily be there to discuss dancing, there's not very many posts on there at all....

David Franklin
6th-November-2006, 07:08 PM
Or are they just not involved in the forum thing at all?Not involved at all.

Cos everytime I look at another forum which purports to primarily be there to discuss dancing, there's not very many posts on there at all....True. But you know, there aren't an awful lot of posts here about dancing either. (Yes, there are more dance posts here than the other place. But the ratio is a hell of a lot smaller than you might guess from the general traffic level).

TheTramp
6th-November-2006, 07:18 PM
Not involved at all.
True. But you know, there aren't an awful lot of posts here about dancing either. (Yes, there are more dance posts here than the other place. But the ratio is a hell of a lot smaller than you might guess from the general traffic level).

So, it's less of not wanting to get involved in THIS forum, as not wanting to get involved in forums at all then?

And I know that there's not a lot of stuff actually about dance, but, if that's what the people using the forum generally want, then that's what'll happen. If more people wanted to start talking about dancing, then that'd happen too. Although, that might require a change in forum personnel of course....

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 07:39 PM
And I know that there's not a lot of stuff actually about danceTo be quite honest, I spend enough time actually *doing* dance that I don't really feel I need to talk about it most of the rest of the time. I value the fact that this "dance" forum isn't mainly about dance.

And how much is there to actually *say* about it anyway? We have the which foot to step back on and bouncing the hand threads periodically, and other stuff just about as often as DavidJames can think of it.

TheTramp
6th-November-2006, 07:43 PM
Oh. I should have said - I'm quite happy with the amount of threads on dancing. To be honest, a lot of the time, those are the ones I find the least interesting anyhow. They tend to either be lots of people just posting up with the same stuff, or they tend to degenerate into 2 sides, all reiterating the same point over, and over, and over.... :yum:

I think that one 'problem' is that having been here so long, we've discussed a lot of points on dancing ad infinitum. What's left to talk about? :rolleyes:

David Franklin
6th-November-2006, 07:54 PM
So, it's less of not wanting to get involved in THIS forum, as not wanting to get involved in forums at all then?It's hard to know. At the time, there was no other forum; I told them about this one, and they said they didn't like all the bitching on it. If they were to post elsewhere, someone else would have to persuade them, and they'd probably respond "Sorry, but I looked at a dance forum before and it wasn't to my taste".

Also, even now, the other MJ forums are a long way from critical mass, so I don't think you can conclude too much from who does or doesn't post to them.

Of course we have at least some empiric evidence that (some) teachers who would be happy to post to forums avoid this one because of the atmosphere (David and Lily).

Gus
6th-November-2006, 08:05 PM
Of course we have at least some empiric evidence that (some) teachers who would be happy to post to forums avoid this one because of the atmosphere (David and Lily).Aye, I don't see what is so hard to comprehend that due to either (or a combination of) luvinees, outright bad manners and marginalised dance discussion, there are respected dancer and teachers who don't want to partake ... know several personally.

Juju
6th-November-2006, 10:20 PM
:rolleyes:

I knew the fact of observation would alter what's being observed - there's always at least one smartass - but it's still a valid point.

Schrodinger's Ass?

Ghost
7th-November-2006, 02:11 AM
I think that one 'problem' is that having been here so long, we've discussed a lot of points on dancing ad infinitum. What's left to talk about? :rolleyes:



And how much is there to actually *say* about it anyway?

Huh? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Are you saying that everything useful I could want to know about Ceroc is on this Forum already? In which case could the Search Engine be upgraded :flower:

El Salsero Gringo
7th-November-2006, 09:25 AM
Huh? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Are you saying that everything useful I could want to know about Ceroc is on this Forum already? In which case could the Search Engine be upgraded :flower:I think it's a given that the Forum's search engine could be upgraded, or better still, chained to some heavy concrete and thrown into a deep ocean!

There is a great deal about dance stored in the Forum archive; I expect that if you were to think of a question there's a 95% chance it's been answered already, which is of course not to say that it's not worth asking or discussing again. But, I don't think most people would spend nearly as much time posting here if the predominant content was about dance, it would be like reading a dictionary instead of reading a novel.

David Bailey
7th-November-2006, 09:40 AM
Are you saying that everything useful I could want to know about Ceroc is on this Forum already?
I think a lot of common topics have been discussed, yes. Whether they've been "answered" or not, I couldn't say.

But so what? Any forum is a living community, an ongoing pub conversation if you will.

Do people stop talking in the pub if someone says "Oh, we sorted that out 3 years ago, here's the tape we made of our discussion, now go and listen to it for a while"?

(The answer, BTW, is "no")


In which case could the Search Engine be upgraded :flower:
As ESG said, the Search Engine is indeed a big steaming pile of poo.

But, implementing a decent Search Engine is a massive undertaking, for very little obvious immediate return, so I can't blame Franck for not wanting to get started on it.


And how much is there to actually *say* about it anyway? We have the which foot to step back on and bouncing the hand threads periodically, and other stuff just about as often as DavidJames can think of it.
Which isn't often, seeing as how TalkTalk have killed my home internet access for another couple of weeks... :sad:

Dance is evolving, we continue to talk about it. Anyone seriously interested in historical discussion can find the information in the archive. Or ask MartinHarper.

bigdjiver
7th-November-2006, 03:24 PM
...As ESG said, the Search Engine is indeed a big steaming pile of poo...and even if it worked it would just direct us to many discussions with a few good posts invaded by fluffy bunnies, chocolate, and less loveable things.

El Salsero Gringo
7th-November-2006, 04:25 PM
and even if it worked it would just direct us to many discussions with a few good posts invaded by fluffy bunnies, chocolate, and less loveable things.Agreed. I really do think a "relevance" score for each post, and an individual threshold before displaying a post would be an asset to the Forum.

David Bailey
7th-November-2006, 05:58 PM
David and Lily, ChrisA, Jayne and Divissima have either left or good as.
Apart from those, I can see that a lot of well-known teachers and luminaries in the MJ world have registered, and used to post, but no longer do so.

I have no idea whether this is due to "temperature" or other factors - but as this list includes Viktor, Nina, Howard, Simon B, Amir, Franco, Marc, Toby, and others, I do believe the forum is poorer without their contributions.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2006, 12:21 AM
Apart from those, I can see that a lot of well-known teachers and luminaries in the MJ world have registered, and used to post, but no longer do so.

I have no idea whether this is due to "temperature" or other factors - but as this list includes Viktor, Nina, Howard, Simon B, Amir, Franco, Marc, Toby, and others, I do believe the forum is poorer without their contributions.I think you mean SimonR...?

Amir still posts. Howard only ever posted three times, to my recollection (and two of those were about his hat). I recall about five posts in total from Viktor over the 18 months that I've been a member. Marc hasn't posted himself for a long time - although Rachel still does sometimes. And we heard from Toby over the SimonB party at the Hippodrome. So not much has changed in recent months.

Lynn
8th-November-2006, 12:59 AM
Marc hasn't posted himself for a long time - although Rachel still does sometimes. Eh? Marc only registered a few months ago, so he hasn't even been on here a long time yet. Rachel used to post a lot more.

It used to be certain people clashed. It was like being in a room with some strongly conflicting personalities. Now lots of threads seem to 'flare up' for no good reason. Its more like being in a room with a crowd of rather drunk teenagers.

drathzel
8th-November-2006, 02:07 AM
ok i have come to this thread a little late but here is my thoughts.

When i joined this forum it was about dance with a little bit of lovely dovey and a little bit of friction. It was a nice place to enter and i had time to get comfortable. Debates started and thats cool, there is no where that you can go that there are this many people and people dont disagree.

I am happy in the main with the way this forum is, yes i would like to see a little more dance and a little less of personal digs, but that is the way life is. People change, circumstances change and opinions change. People start of quiet and become argumentative. Some people start argumentative and calm down.

Who we are changes, what we are stays the same. If we all remember that everyone on the forum is a person and has feelings, whether we like them or not, also has there dignity and its not up to me or anyone else to take it away. If you do have a personal attack then make it to the person in person or by pm. If you have a general grievance then let us hear about it.:hug:

David Bailey
8th-November-2006, 08:54 AM
I think you mean SimonR...?
Nope, I mean Simon B, he's registered, and has posted previously, and still lurks, I believe - just doesn't post.


Amir still posts. Howard only ever posted three times, to my recollection (and two of those were about his hat). I recall about five posts in total from Viktor over the 18 months that I've been a member. Marc hasn't posted himself for a long time - although Rachel still does sometimes. And we heard from Toby over the SimonB party at the Hippodrome. So not much has changed in recent months.
The point is, that these people are significant in the community, but they don't feel it's worth it (for whatever reason) to contribute to the forum in any significant manner. There may be a variety of reasons for this, but the general evidence backs up (or at least, doesn't contradict) David Franklin's point about "temperature" putting people off.

TheTramp
8th-November-2006, 09:14 AM
The point is, that these people are significant in the community, but they don't feel it's worth it (for whatever reason) to contribute to the forum in any significant manner. There may be a variety of reasons for this, but the general evidence backs up (or at least, doesn't contradict) David Franklin's point about "temperature" putting people off.

And how did you make that leap of faith then? Just because those people don't post backs up the point that temperature puts people off?

I reckon those people don't post because they've got webbed hands, and find it really difficult to type. And the general evidence backs this up too! :whistle:

David Bailey
8th-November-2006, 09:43 AM
And how did you make that leap of faith then? Just because those people don't post backs up the point that temperature puts people off?
You sound like a lawyer :na:

The trouble is, you're not going to get a lot of outspoken posts by people who think the forum is too aggressive, so there's always going to be a weight of evidence on the side of the "loudest". So, to a large degree, we have to rely on the evidence of private comments, PMs, and lack of posting from people who might otherwise be expected to have incentives to post.

I realise this makes the case weaker, and I realise there's always a "it was better in the good old days" tendency, and I realise that you can't lump people into groups and assign general motivations to all of them.

However, that all said, my feeling is that the Forum is too aggressive in tone occasionally, and more importantly, is getting a reputation as being too aggressive, which is potentially putting some people off.


I reckon those people don't post because they've got webbed hands, and find it really difficult to type. And the general evidence backs this up too! :whistle:
Ah. Humour. I've heard of that.

David Franklin
8th-November-2006, 09:46 AM
And how did you make that leap of faith then? Just because those people don't post backs up the point that temperature puts people off?Fair comment, and that's the reason I didn't list them myself. On the other hand, repeating myself, there are definitely 'high-profile' dancers who have never posted here because the temperature puts them off.


I reckon those people don't post because they've got webbed hands, and find it really difficult to type. And the general evidence backs this up too! :whistle:Actually, the general evidence tends to contradict the 'webbed hand' hypothesis rather strongly. Unusual hand features tend to get noticed in the dancing community, after all!

straycat
8th-November-2006, 10:01 AM
And how did you make that leap of faith then? Just because those people don't post backs up the point that temperature puts people off?

Could always try asking them. I'm told some of them are quite approachable :wink:

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2006, 10:38 AM
Eh? Marc only registered a few months ago, so he hasn't even been on here a long time yet. Rachel used to post a lot more.I see Marc's registration; but I could have sworn I'd read posts from him from three or four years ago.

It's inevitable that there will always be people "who used to post more". That was just as true two years ago when I joined, when people used to give lists of recently departed posters and mourn the lack of their interesting contributions.

However there are also a lot of new contributors with interesting points of view.

Dreadful Scathe
8th-November-2006, 10:47 AM
I don't think that it'd take long to come up with a list of who is involved. Can probably mostly do that from memory!

GetAGrip
Tiggs Tours
ESG
Gus
DavidJames
Wittybird
Me :blush:

Or did you want to go back a little further?
AndyMcGregor
Mikey
Plenty of MY threads have had arguments in them, are you sure your nonsensical made up list is entirely reliable? :)


I would say compared to the majority of public forums this is a shining beacon of light and humanities last, best hope for peace. We can actually talk about the things we want to take about with hardly any pointless abuse at all. Anyone who put "Yes too hot" should take a good look in the mirror as you may begin to see the startings of a HITLER MOUSTACHE. Fascists.

Carry on. :)

Dreadful Scathe
8th-November-2006, 10:52 AM
, it would be like reading a dictionary instead of reading a novel.

The forum is a novel? Hmm probably a Dan Brown/Irvine Welsh joint effort* I'd say :)

* with footnotes by Barbara Cartland

straycat
8th-November-2006, 11:06 AM
Plenty of MY threads have had arguments in them, are you sure your nonsensical made up list is entirely reliable? :)


Maybe your arguments weren't all that memorable? :devil:



I would say compared to the majority of public forums this is a shining beacon of light and humanities last, best hope for peace.


Yeah - but the majority of public forums are frequented by a high proportion of hormonal adolescents. :devil:
Compared to the ones I generally use, one sees a different picture. NOT, I stress for the majority of threads / posts - it's not all doom and gloom. Still too often though :(



Anyone who put "Yes too hot" should take a good look in the mirror as you may begin to see the startings of a HITLER MOUSTACHE. Fascists.

Carry on. :)

Sig Heil!
(TooHotCat)

Lynn
8th-November-2006, 12:29 PM
And I know that there's not a lot of stuff actually about dance, but, if that's what the people using the forum generally want, then that's what'll happen. If more people wanted to start talking about dancing, then that'd happen too. That can be part of the problem though. Some people do want to talk about dance. They start a relevant thread (or renew an old one, if relevant) and start the discussion. Other people who don't want to talk about dance start chit chat on the dance thread. Either the thread has to be dragged back onto topic, or the posters who were talking about dance just stop posting on that thread. Any time I've stopped posting for a while, this has been the reason, I've gone back to dance discussion threads to find that they are just banter. (I've commented before that it doesn't happen to the tango threads, I think because non-tango dancers find them too technical and boring.)

I don't mind banter and I don't mind the amount of chat and fun on here. But I wonder how the 'fun' people on here would react if a lot of chit chat threads started to be full of technical dance posts. (Suspect the reaction would be along the lines of 'go and get a life'.)

TheTramp
8th-November-2006, 01:46 PM
That can be part of the problem though. Some people do want to talk about dance. They start a relevant thread (or renew an old one, if relevant) and start the discussion. Other people who don't want to talk about dance start chit chat on the dance thread. Either the thread has to be dragged back onto topic, or the posters who were talking about dance just stop posting on that thread. Any time I've stopped posting for a while, this has been the reason, I've gone back to dance discussion threads to find that they are just banter. (I've commented before that it doesn't happen to the tango threads, I think because non-tango dancers find them too technical and boring.)

I don't mind banter and I don't mind the amount of chat and fun on here. But I wonder how the 'fun' people on here would react if a lot of chit chat threads started to be full of technical dance posts. (Suspect the reaction would be along the lines of 'go and get a life'.)

So, what you're basically saying then, is that you wish there was more banter and chit chat on the tango threads? Will try harder. Just for you Lynn! :flower:

Dreadful Scathe
8th-November-2006, 02:33 PM
Maybe your arguments weren't all that memorable? :devil:

I didnt mention MY arguments at all, its rarely me that posts the most in any thread. Its a toss up between David "let me explain it to you in a careful non-denominational way" James , ES "heres something fools havent considered" G or Barry "want some disdain with that?" Schnikov

Dreadful Scathe
8th-November-2006, 02:34 PM
to temper the possible insults taken from the last post - the rest of you are bastards as well...


...er...

straycat
8th-November-2006, 02:38 PM
to temper the possible insults taken from the last post - the rest of you are bastards as well...


Awww. There there. Have a hug. We all love you too :hug: .

Dreadful Scathe
8th-November-2006, 02:46 PM
Awww. There there. Have a hug. We all love you too :hug: .
aww :) :rolleyes:

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2006, 02:47 PM
ES "heres something fools havent considered" G It's not the fools I worry about (which should give you a measure of personal comfort, DS) - but everyone else. :na:

David Bailey
8th-November-2006, 02:48 PM
I didnt mention MY arguments at all, its rarely me that posts the most in any thread. Its a toss up between David "let me explain it to you in a careful non-denominational way" James , ES "heres something fools havent considered" G or Barry "want some disdain with that?" Schnikov
Excellent, I needed a new sig :)

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2006, 02:54 PM
Excellent, I needed a new sig :)While we're at it, can you please tell us what it says on your avatar? (Assuming you know, that is!)

David Bailey
8th-November-2006, 03:05 PM
While we're at it, can you please tell us what it says on your avatar? (Assuming you know, that is!)
"Come let's make a date, to Tango till late, And when we get Tired, We'll just Hesitate"

It's an eye test, maybe you need spectacles...

Rachel
8th-November-2006, 03:22 PM
Eh? Marc only registered a few months ago, so he hasn't even been on here a long time yet. Rachel used to post a lot more.


I see Marc's registration; but I could have sworn I'd read posts from him from three or four years ago.Lynn's right, Marc registered for the first time a couple of months ago. He'd not even seen the forum before then, as we didn't have internet access at home.

He'll be back posting again though – at the moment, he's still in the throws of excitement at being able to download music. Every spare minute at home is taken up with this.

However, the forum must be pretty scary when you don't know the people on it. Or worse, when you think you should know the people but don't recognise their forum alias!

I still come on the forum from time to time – mostly for PMs and to look at the what's on when polls (I love them! Alongside Lyndaslist they're the quickest way of finding out what's happening at the weekend.)

Work's too busy for me to post more on the forum right now. I normally just post before weekenders when I'm too excited to get my head round work anyway.

Rachel x

Dreadful Scathe
27th-November-2006, 01:20 PM
Its very cool in the forum these days!

David Bailey
27th-November-2006, 01:24 PM
Its very cool in the forum these days!
I know, it's very boring, I haven't infracted anyone for, ooh, hours and hours now.

I notice the "too hot" votes are creeping up though...

Andy McGregor
27th-November-2006, 01:33 PM
I know, it's very boring, I haven't infracted anyone for, ooh, hours and hours now.

I notice the "too hot" votes are creeping up though...I think those are from the people who think the whole "infraction" thing is making them hot under the collar.

From my own point of view the heavy-handed moderating I've seen of late is raising the temperature and reducing the fun. The days when Franck was a God-like voice who occasionally stepped in to say "play nice" are long-gone and I regret their passing :tears: Today I received a headmaster type ticking off from David James - my temperature was 110F!!!

I, for one, am now continuing to participate in the Forum out of habit and because I've met some nice interesting people through it. But I'm on the edge and am resigned to the fact that the Forum is a lesser place due to this high-minded and high-handed approach :tears:

Franck
27th-November-2006, 01:43 PM
From my own point of view the heavy-handed moderating I've seen of late is raising the temperature and reducing the fun. The days when Franck was a God-like voice who occasionally stepped in to say "play nice" are long-gone and I regret their passing :tears: Today I received a headmaster type ticking off from David James - my temperature was 110F!!!Maybe you should start to play nice then Andy!

The forum cannot be like it was then as we have ten times the volume of posts and I cannot step in to cool things down often enough. All the moderators are doing is enforcing the rules I have set and with my full endorsement.
All moderating decisions are automatically posted in a "Mod & Admin" forum and are discussed as a result with moderators questioning whether each sanction was appropriate.

Infractions are unpleasant to receive but are a great way to make everyone aware of when they've crossed a line and should cool down or take perspective.

Andy McGregor
27th-November-2006, 07:43 PM
Maybe you should start to play nice then Andy!People aren't always nice, it's the way of the world. Now we've got rules saying that being nice is compusory. I'm afraid of the massive saccharine attact that the new rules will create :sick:

And it seems that now we're expected to leave out criticism. I believe that the biggest mistake on a dance forum is to allow bad advice about dance. I also believe that people who give that bad advice should have it deleted and receive negative reputation, possibly infractions if they persistently give bad advice, especially if that advice could cause injuries. However, it seems that you can give bad advice freely. But you will receive infractions if you disagree with that bad advice, especially if that bad advice is given by somebody new to the Forum.

On the chit-chat side, the thing that persistently annoys me is whinging about the mood/temperature/etc of postings on the Forum. Again, there seems to be nothing wrong with whinging - the mistake you can make is to disagree with the whinger, especially if they are someone 'returning' to the Forum.

We have different styles of disagreeing. Mine is combative. It's not especially personal, I disagree with what people say and I state my case in a way that I hope most people will find entertaining and/or funny.


The forum cannot be like it was then as we have ten times the volume of posts and I cannot step in to cool things down often enough. All the moderators are doing is enforcing the rules I have set and with my full endorsement. Then maybe we should join a smaller forum. Anybody fancy starting one?

TheTramp
27th-November-2006, 07:50 PM
Then maybe we should join a smaller forum. Anybody fancy starting one?

Go post on the MJDA one Andy. I'm sure that they'd love to see you! :whistle: :wink: