Dancing with beginners

[Jayne]

Girls - I've been reading the posts about "exclusive dancers" and dancing with beginners with interest (I'll reply at some point when I've figured how to phrase it...). Some of the the guys are saying that they love dancing with beginners because it's great to see the look on a girl's face when she follows etc etc. But all that a beginner girl has to do is follow. A beginner guy however has to get not only the shape of the moves but also the lead and the timing before a girl can follow.

My question is - do you think it's easier for a guy to lead a beginner than it is for a girl to follow a beginner?

Just wondered...

Jayne
:nice:

PS This wasn't the topic I was thinking of posting - I've still got that one up my sleeve... :wink:

[PeterL]

I think that it is far easier to lead a begginer than be led by one.

However it is true that begginers should dance with people of a greater experience than themselves, whether they are leading or following.
And the more variety of people they dance with the better I don't know how it is for a follower but leading people varies from dance to dance. You do not lead all people the same, it depends on many things.
From how much tension they give you to how responsive they are.

I won't go into it too much because you don't think about it when you are dancing you just dance.

As I havbe said on another thread that is why I like dancing with begginers so much, they are like a blank slate, no preconceptions etc.

Maybe it is selfishness but you will find that if you lead a begginer then when they become experienced you dance well together because when they learnt they learnt the way you lead.

[Gadget]

Damn - just replied to this in my last post without reading this one :rolleyes:

Yes, I would imagine that it would be easier for a man leading a beginner than for a lady to follow a beginner - but I've never been a lady following a beginner, so I can't say for sure.:wink:

[PeterL]

at christmas Obi always teaches a class where the ladies take the lead.

I was amazed at how difficult following was, which was the point he is trying to make.

However it was also pointed out to me that most of the ladies are begginers when it comes to leading.
So next time I wanted to try following it would be best to get an experienced lead.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Jayne
do you think it's easier for a guy to lead a beginner than it is for a girl to follow a beginner?

IMO - definitely!

I think about half of it comes from the mindset of the follower. If you are on autopilot following an absolute beginner your dance is unlikely to "flow", leaving you both frustrated. If, however, you take an interest in encouraging the beginner - even if it is just to repeat the first move over and over and over until they've got it and it takes them the whole dance, for me that's what's fun and rewarding. I can fully understand why people love to dance with beginners.

As a taxi I find it more challenging to lead beginners. Maybe it's because I'm short and don't have "big muscles". I find it much more rewarding (and easier on my arms and shoulders!!) to taxi as a follower.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Jayne
My question is - do you think it's easier for a guy to lead a beginner than it is for a girl to follow a beginner? I would think so, yes. Especially if a girl is not sure where or in which direction the leader is wanting her to go. I danced with a couple of beginners recently who'd only been dancing a few weeks - one was extremely forceful (finger nails digging in, pulling the lady in too close so you could hardly move at all) and the other with complete spaghetti arms. I couldn't decide which dacne was the more difficult. They'll probably both turn out to be really good dancers before too long, though.


Originally posted by PeterL
at christmas Obi always teaches a class where the ladies take the lead.

I was amazed at how difficult following was, which was the point he is trying to make.

However it was also pointed out to me that most of the ladies are begginers when it comes to leading.
So next time I wanted to try following it would be best to get an experienced lead.

I'm still trying to learn how to follow properly after almost 6 years!!

Funny, though, Marc did a fun bank holiday class once where the ladies took over the lead for part of the routine. Unfortunately, from the stage, I could hear several of the men doing the class, muttering things like, 'this is silly nonsense' ... Which was such a shame, cos I thought it could be a really useful exercise. Perhaps we didn't explain the useful side of it enough, so people just thought it was something they'd never need to use in freestyle?
Rachel

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Rachel
Perhaps we didn't explain the useful side of it enough, so people just thought it was something they'd never need to use in freestyle?
Rachel


Obi taught a neck-break and a lady spin and told the girls to spin us as hard as possible, and rest there hand on our shoulders for the neck break. He was purposely telling tem to do the leads badly, and stressed it was so us men would think more before throwing girls into spin aftre spin etc.

a very useful exercise and a lot of fun.

[Graham]

Originally posted over and over and over and over by PeterL
begginers Peter, I'm an easygoing chap, but if you insist on talking about beginners on virtually every post, can you PLEASE spell it correctly. Thanks! :grin:

[Grant]

Originally posted by Graham
I'm an easygoing chap
I love the one you make a sweeping statement and then proceed to demolish it with your followthrough:D :D
Grant

[Grant]

Originally posted by Grant
I love the one you make a sweeping statement and then proceed to demolish it with your followthrough:D :D
Grant
oops i meant 'i love the way...'.
Guess I will be next in line for a demolition. :D :D
Grant

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Grant
I love the one you make a sweeping statement and then proceed to demolish it with your followthrough:D :D
Grant

:rofl: :rofl:

[Graham]

Originally posted by Grant
I love the one you make a sweeping statement and then proceed to demolish it with your followthrough:D :D
Grant Undermine, perhaps - not demolish, surely? Demolish would have been :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad SPELL IT CORRECTLY YOU MORON!!!! :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

[Rachel]

Originally posted by PeterL
Obi taught a neck-break and a lady spin and told the girls to spin us as hard as possible, and rest there hand on our shoulders for the neck break. He was purposely telling tem to do the leads badly, and stressed it was so us men would think more before throwing girls into spin aftre spin etc.

a very useful exercise and a lot of fun. I like it!!

(I've only tried to lead a few times, since I've been a taxi dancer, and I find it so difficult - especially to know how hard to push the ladies on a spin because they all do it so differently. When I'm about to do a spin, I hardly like to be touched at all as almost any kind of push will put you off balance. But many new ladies seem to prefer you to be pretty forceful. How on earth do you know how much force they'd like when you've never danced with them before? I admire all you men and ladies who lead!!!)
Rachel

[PeterL]

like all computer people I have lost the ability to spell over time.
and to be honest, don't care that much as long as people understand me.:D :D

[Grant]

Originally posted by PeterL

and to be honest, don't care that much as long as people understand me.:D :D
Ok, hand in your chief worrier badge. :D :D
Grant

[Grant]

Originally posted by Graham
Undermine, perhaps - not demolish, surely? Demolish would have been :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad SPELL IT CORRECTLY YOU MORON!!!! :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad
A pedant being pedantic.:D :D Fancy that.
:cheers:
Grant

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Graham
:reallymad :reallymad :reallymad SPELL IT CORRECTLY YOU MORON!!!! :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad Aaah - you're still so cute when you're angry !!! And it's great how you are brave enough to show your true colours to the other boys and girls and not just to those closest to you.....

:kiss: :hug: :kiss:

Wxxxx

[Wendy]

And when I was a beginner I was sooo desperate to dance that I kind of was a beg-giner... maybe our chief worrier deserves a little slack and perhaps a little poetic licence ??? Non ???

(Of course, if he doesn't correct it NOW, he'll have me to deal with... and I've never had a volunteer for that !!!)

Wx

[TheTramp]

Ummm..... Wendy

I think that the idea was that would be what he'd say if he was showing his true colours. Not what he did say....

So, the question is: is saying what you would say, and not what you did say, really showing your true colours?

Discuss!

Steve

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Wendy
how you are brave enough to show your true colours to the other boys and girls and not just to those closest to you.....

:kiss: :hug: :kiss:

Wxxxx


Wendy, you'll never guess what he did on Saturday while you were away too...........






Cracked a :D on the dance floor, at least I've decided it was a :D , it might have been a :rofl: at me being a crap begginer (sic) and not following properly :eek:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Wendy, you'll never guess what he did on Saturday while you were away too...Cracked a :D on the dance floor Yeh, he's still a begginer in the smiling on the dancefloor department. But I only want the best for him and for him to be happy and if other girls can get him to smile.. so be it.....I'd even let him go to Dundee if that worked.... so if I have to go to Camber by myself again... well sometimes you have to put the other person first... (no smiley for this stuff !!!!)

Wxxx

[Wendy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I think that the idea was that would be what he'd say if he was showing his true colours... That's why Max Clifford is so well paid !!
So, the question is: is saying what you would say, and not what you did say, really showing your true colours? Discuss! Yes. No!

Wxxx

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by PeterL
like all computer people I have lost the ability to spell over time.
and to be honest, don't care that much as long as people understand me.:D :D

Oi. I'm a little blue computer person and my spelling isn't too bad.

Shouldnt you be worried about offending us good spellers :).

[Grant]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

Shouldnt you be worried about offending us good spellers :).
Sorry to report that PeterL cannot worry about this. His license to worry has been suspended pending full investigation of his "dont care that much" posting which was a flagrant breach of his obligations as a member of the international federation of worry wart's. :D
Grant

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Grant
His license to worry ....

Since this seems to be the spelling thread, should that be 'His licence to worry' .....? :D

[Grant]

Originally posted by DavidY
Since this seems to be the spelling thread, should that be 'His licence to worry' .....? :D
According to my sources both variants are acceptable in "British English" whereas license is more usual in "American English".
Any international federation would be dominated by Americans and hence would use the American version. :D :D
:cheers:
Grant

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Grant

Any international federation would be dominated by Americans and hence would use the American version. :D

Its also equally correct to use the spelling 'DavidY' instead of 'Pedant' :)

[Grant]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Its also equally correct to use the spelling 'DavidY' instead of 'Pedant' :)
And I found 'Graham' listed as another alternative. :D :D

Grant
PS. Expecting to get seriously flamed by Graham if I made any spelling mistakes or typo's in this post.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Grant
And I found 'Graham' listed as another alternative. :D :D

Grant
PS. Expecting to get seriously flamed by Graham if I made any spelling mistakes or typo's in this post. You must have me mixed up with someone else, Grant. As I said previously, I'm an easygoing chap. :waycool:

In any case, I'd be holding fire on the flaming, as you can still correct what I point out for another 57 minutes.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Graham
You must have me mixed up with someone else, Grant. As I said previously, I'm an easygoing chap.
Of course you are. Silly me, that's the second time you have had to correct me today. :D


In any case, I'd be holding fire on the flaming, as you can still correct what I point out for another 57 minutes.
I've been hiding under my desk since I read this, expecting a visit from the hitman. But it's after 3PM now so I guess that's not what you meant. :D
Wait a minute.. who's that outside my window..with the big gun.. oh no ..Miss Marples will catch you eventually Graham.. you can't kill all of us.. arghhh

Grant

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Grant

Wait a minute.. who's that outside my window..with the big gun.. oh no ..Miss Marples will catch you eventually Graham.. you can't kill all of us.. arghhh

Grant

R.I.P. Grant, very shakespearian the 'arghhh' - how did he manage to type it in ? UNLESS HE'S FAKED HIS OWN DEATH ha got u

[Bill]

Is this the dancing with beginners thread or the no-one can spell properly thread ???????????

bringing it back on track.......................... for a change...........

it was fun last night and danced with several 'beginners' and with a new temporary DJ it was a good night. One of the real advantages of dancing with beginners is that it does make you think of how well you lead and of ensuring the moves are appropriate.

The disadvantage of a busy venue though is that I danced with a 'new' person last night only to find she has been coming since January. And it was a lovely dance Nancy :grin: And I know several excellent female dancers who have been patronised by men who don't know them and make comments on how to follow or negative remarks when they get it 'wrong' not realising it's their lack of signal or lead that's the problem!!!:reallymad

Now .........any comments on the spelling ???????

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Bill
The disadvantage of a busy venue though is that I danced with a 'new' person last night only to find she has been coming since January. And it was a lovely dance Nancy :grin: And I know several excellent female dancers who have been patronised by men who don't know them and make comments on how to follow or negative remarks when they get it 'wrong' not realising it's their lack of signal or lead that's the problem!!!:reallymad

Now .........any comments on the spelling ???????

nope - lets keep it on topic shall we Bill ;)

I think commenting negatively on someone elses dancing is just setting yourself up for a fall. There isnt really a 'wrong' in dancing anyway theres just 'different' :)

[Graham]

Originally posted by Grant
Of course you are. Silly me, that's the second time you have had to correct me today. :D And that's without me mentioning your greengrocers' apostrophes! :wink:

Originally posted by Grant
I've been hiding under my desk since I read this, expecting a visit from the hitman. But it's after 3PM now so I guess that's not what you meant. :D Hitmen who turn up right on cue don't generally last too long in the business. YOU WILL BE VISITED WHEN YOU LEAST EXPECT IT. :what: :devil:

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I think commenting negatively on someone elses dancing is just setting yourself up for a fall. There isnt really a 'wrong' in dancing anyway theres just 'different' :)

I agree that negative comments are not a good thing in most cases. However I think they can be useful on occasion if done well.

I can remember once when someone commented negatively on my dancing and I was glad afterwards that they did. This was after I'd been dancing for well over a year. Someone that I knew and respected as a good dancer said I was a bit 'jerky' to dance with. This was a bit of a shock at first, especially as I'd been dancing a while, but I knew the person concerned and that she meant it kindly.

I hope I've modified my dancing since then to get a little better - but if she hadn't said anything I'd still have been reinforcing bad habits and potentially being uncomfortable to dance with. I think there's a danger that some of us (especially men/leaders) fall into bad habits and don't realise we're doing it because we never get feedback.

If I was a braver person I'd ask friendly partners to give me a bit of negative feedback every so often & hopefully not get too complacent about bad habits - but on the other hand giving and receiving feedback is very hard to do well.

David

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I think commenting negatively on someone elses dancing is just setting yourself up for a fall. There isnt really a 'wrong' in dancing anyway theres just 'different' :)
I kind of half agree with this;
Commenting negatively and constructive criticism are hard to accept, especially so if you have been dancing for years rather than hours.
While I agree that there isn't a wrong way to dance, I think that dancing differently to your partner is not dancing with them. Which is kind of the whole point.
Commenting on other's dancing - I would never comment unless something is repeatedly going wrong with a move (and then it's only "...when I do this, try and do that...") or they ask "What should I be doing here" - normally the answer is "exactly want you were/are doing".
I think that it is very hard for negative comments not to wound unless you are asked or are a teacher/taxi dancer {or have a BTC pass}.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
nope - lets keep it on topic shall we Bill

ok then


There isnt really a 'wrong' in dancing anyway theres just 'different' :)
Can't agree with this.
There may be a number of right ways of doing something but there will probably be a lot more wrong ways. Saying every way is ok, just different, sounds like some kind of PC speak to me.
:cheers:
Grant (the greengrocer)

PS If the follower does do something wrong it could well be because the lead itself was wrong.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by DavidY

If I was a braver person I'd ask friendly partners to give me a bit of negative feedback every so often & hopefully not get too complacent about bad habits - but on the other hand giving and receiving feedback is very hard to do well.

David

Well David, if your ever looking for some negative comments look no further...i'm an expert! :yum:
Just ask my poor partner who's had to suffer them for the past 6 months.....mind you, he's turning into a top class dancer so it can't be all that bad :wink:
Sherwin and Denise are another 2 who felt the wrath of my 'honesty' approach when we used to practice together. I just don't see any point in letting people think they're doing something correct when it's blatantly wrong. But before you think i'm being harsh, i do like to be on the recieving end aswell, and i'm my own worst critic. I think people know me well enough now to know that if they can't handle the truth...don't ask!

filthycute x x

and don't be feeling all sorry for James....he gives as good as he gets :yum:

[Chicklet]

on topic - I like constructive critisism from people I know to be giving it as such - I might not always adopt what they say from that point onward but I'll always try and see how it feels.

off topic - call me pedantina if you like but I'm with DavidY and will continue to use "c" for a noun and "s" for a verb in licenc/se and other words from the same "family" :D

[Grant]

Originally posted by filthycute

i do like to be on the recieving end aswell, and i'm my own worst critic.

I'm sure this has helped you to become the outstanding dancer you are today. How can anyone improve unless they can recognise their faults?



and don't be feeling all sorry for James....he gives as good as he gets :yum:
Saw that in the impromptu 'kung fu kid' display you put on at the end of the last Glasgow party
:cheers:
Grant

[Miss Marples]

Originally posted by Grant
Wait a minute.. who's that outside my window..with the big gun.. oh no ..Miss Marples will catch you eventually Graham.. you can't kill all of us.. arghhh
Aha! It is I! Miss Marples!
(or did you mean my evil twin?) :confused:

[Bill]

Originally posted by filthycute
Sherwin and Denise are another 2 who felt the wrath of my 'honesty' approach when we used to practice together. I just don't see any point in letting people think they're doing something correct when it's blatantly wrong.


Ah ......... but Mel - were they doing something 'wrong' or somehting you didn't like or agree with ?? If it was the wrong moves as part of a routine then that's one thing but what one dancer might percieve as 'wrong' someone else might see as a stylish interpretation :wink:

[TheTramp]

Or just a whole new move :na:

Steve

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Bill
Ah ......... but Mel - were they doing something 'wrong' or somehting you didn't like or agree with ?? If it was the wrong moves as part of a routine then that's one thing but what one dancer might percieve as 'wrong' someone else might see as a stylish interpretation :wink:

ahhh very good question young man :wink:(going to get my spade out for this one as i can see myself digging a big hole!!!

I know what you mean, but there's also a difference between 'not being to my taste' but looks good......and not being to anybodys taste.
:sick:
I'm not talking about Denise or Sherwin when i say that ......as you well know they're both top class dancers. I only mentioned them because we used to practise together, and obviously they can't see what they were doing so they'd ask me and James...and we'd ask them.

If anyone asked for an opinion on their dancing it would definately be based on how well they can lead/follow/time/etc: the move....i'd never harrang anybody for their interpretation or style.

filthycute x x

[Graham]

I think that when considering pseudo-philosophical questions like this it's best to consider examples which are as simple as possible. I dance with a lot of followers but not many leaders, so I'm not an expert on leaders' faults - at least, I'm not if you don't count my expertise in displaying them :tears: Anyway, if a follower consistently uses her thumb to grip on to your hand, to me that's just wrong. Similarly, if in a class she always starts too far away from you AND takes a big step back so that your arms are at full stretch it's a mistake, not just different. Now if you're aware of these faults you can adjust your own dancing to manage them to some extent, but they're still "wrong" rather than "just her style" as far as I'm concerned. Clearly there is a great deal of scope for "different", such as how many beats you make a comb last, or how you move your feet in an armjive, and I would certainly not dream of saying anything to anyone about their style unless specifically asked.

Having said all that, I kind of agree with DS that if you give anyone feedback you're opening a bit of a can of worms unless you're recognisably (to them) acting in a teaching capacity (at a workshop or as a teacher/taxi).

[Grant]

Originally posted by filthycute

If anyone asked for an opinion on their dancing it would definately be based on how well they can lead/follow/time/etc: the move
Right, I'm going to ask your opinion next time I see you... better take my 'brave' pills first though


i'd never harrang anybody for their interpretation or style.
No, but you obviously know enough about both to help others without turning them into little clones of you. Not that I have any problem with lots of little FC clones :D:wink:
:cheers:
Grant

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Chicklet
off topic - call me pedantina if you like but I'm with DavidY and will continue to use "c" for a noun and "s" for a verb in licenc/se and other words from the same "family"
:hug: :) :hug:

[DavidY]

Originally posted by filthycute
Well David, if your ever looking for some negative comments look no further...i'm an expert! :yum: Hmmm ... so I could travel hundreds of miles up to Scotland .... just to find out how bad my dancing is .... from someone I've never met ....

It would have to be at a really good party... :wink:

Mind you it's the best offer I've had all week :devil: so I shouldn't complain too much :wink:

David

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by DavidY
Hmmm ... so I could travel hundreds of miles up to Scotland ....

You could David - we'd be delighted to see you :D How about the 21st June?:wink:


It would have to be at a really good party... :wink:

Oh it WILL be :waycool:

(And I'm sure if you asked FC nicely, she'd put you through your paces.................:wink: )

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Sheena
You could David - we'd be delighted to see you :D How about the 21st June?:wink:
I'd love to go - was sorely tempted in fact, but I checked my diary and realised I'm committed to be elsewhere that weekend. :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears:

Maybe another time...

David