Musicality... and WCS... and taking it to MJ

[TA Guy]

This is a French West Coast Swing site;
http://www.wcs.fr/
I use it for lots of clips and stuff.
If you click on the box marked "Jordan and Tatiana improvisation sur: Don't Cha !!" you get to download a 80MB clip of J&T rather than doing a choreographed routine, just dancing like we would (well, I don't dance like that, but the theory is the same :)) in freestyle. Improv.

When I first watched this clip, I was a little disappointed because it's obviously not quite so flash and entertaining as their choreographed routines and as I watched it, and the moves repeat, the words 'getting boring' did start to creep into my mind. Having watched it again tho, prolly paying more attention, I think it's a lesson on how to use musicality to turn a good routine into a great routine (the moves, not the dancing itself which is always fabulous from these guys). Anyway, I offer this clip up as a great source for anyone looking to pinch a bit of musicality to use in their own MJ routine and obviously apologise profusely if the clip has been mentioned on here before.

I wasn't sure whether to post this is the giant WCS thread, or the giant musicality thread, so I started a small WCS Musicality thread :)

[ducasi]

I think the point about choreographed routines vs normal freestyle is worth making – most of the YouTube, etc., videos of fab WCS dances are choreographed, as so look incredible.

I'm much more interested in seeing how in normal freestyle WCS leading and musicality works.

And as opposed to taking WCS musicality to MJ, I'd like to know how to take my MJ musicality to WCS.

Will try to get a look at the video you mention, TA Guy, and hopefully it'll give me some ideas... :)

[Lory]

i can't view it :tears: apparently the DX50 decompressor is not found :confused:

[Caro]

:yeah: have been trying ot view that video for the past 2 days (since it was posted :rolleyes: ) and apparently the guy used the latest codex blabla .... whatever geeky stuff that I am not allowed to get on my computer (work) so I can't see it. :tears: :tears: :tears:

Talking about WCS and musicality, did you see J&T's Musicology DVD? It's great :worthy: I've learnt loads that I am still trying to incorporate into my dancing (well, at least at that time when I used to dance...:rolleyes: )

[Dynamo]

This is a French West Coast Swing site;
http://www.wcs.fr/
I use it for lots of clips and stuff.
If you click on the box marked "Jordan and Tatiana improvisation sur: Don't Cha !!"...

...I think it's a lesson on how to use musicality to turn a good routine into a great routine (the moves, not the dancing itself which is always fabulous from these guys). Anyway, I offer this clip up as a great source for anyone looking to pinch a bit of musicality to use in their own MJ routine and obviously apologise profusely if the clip has been mentioned on here before.
....

Thanks for clip have interest in WCS into MJ


I think the point about choreographed routines vs normal freestyle is worth making –.....

I'm much more interested in seeing how in normal freestyle WCS leading and musicality works.

And as opposed to taking WCS musicality to MJ, I'd like to know how to take my MJ musicality to WCS.

Will try to get a look at the video you mention, TA Guy, and hopefully it'll give me some ideas... :)

:yeah: Totally Ducasi, you said it :respect:


.....

Talking about WCS and musicality, did you see J&T's Musicology DVD? It's great :worthy: I've learnt loads that I am still trying to incorporate into my dancing...

:yeah: Am looking for the DVD now also

Most interesting you guys :respect:

[Jamie]

If you click on the box marked "Jordan and Tatiana improvisation sur: Don't Cha !!" you get to download a 80MB clip of J&T rather than doing a choreographed routine, just dancing like we would (well, I don't dance like that, but the theory is the same :)) in freestyle. Improv.


If you've not seen this yet, it's easy to find on youtube.com, search "Jordan Tatiana" and it'll be in the list.

However, thanks for the vid, shall pinch a few more wcs moves, I love to see J&T freestyling!

[Geordieed]

[QUOTE=ducasi;300769]I'd like to know how to take my MJ musicality to WCS.QUOTE]


What sort of things did you want to take over to WCS?

[Caro]

If you've not seen this yet, it's easy to find on youtube.com, search "Jordan Tatiana" and it'll be in the list.



if you're refering to that (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zeNz-JuMRg) one with Parker and Jessica as well, I believe the one posted on the wcs.fr homepage is a different one with just J&T freestyling. And I'm craving to see it but I can't!!! :tears:

[ducasi]

What sort of things did you want to take over to WCS?
It's not so much "things" as understanding... In MJ I can play with timing and hit breaks in the middle of a sequence.

In WCS I feel hemmed in by the timing. E.g., dancing to "Wade In The Water". That tune has loads of breaks, but what happens if I'm in the middle of, say, a whip when a break comes?

Or even, if I'm fortunate and just managed to finish a move on a break... In MJ I can pose, I can let my partner do some wiggling, there's a few way of marking breaks. What can I do in WCS?

Sorry if this is a noddy question. When it comes to WCS I've very much a beginner.

[Lory]

if you're refering to that (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zeNz-JuMRg) one with Parker and Jessica as well, I believe the one posted on the wcs.fr homepage is a different one with just J&T freestyling. And I'm craving to see it but I can't!!! :tears:

:yeah: I've also seen that before too, it's obviously choreogrphed but it seems slightly under rehursed to their usual standards. I'd also like to see them freestyling! :)

[Jamie]

:yeah: I've also seen that before too, it's obviously choreogrphed but it seems slightly under rehursed to their usual standards. I'd also like to see them freestyling! :)

The reason it's under rehearsed is because the routine was made up 10 mins before performing it so I've heard..

[Caro]

:yeah: I've also seen that before too, it's obviously choreogrphed but it seems slightly under rehursed to their usual standards.


The video has been taken at the Sea Sun and Swing festival in France in 2005 - I wasn't there last year but if it was like this year (they did a small choregraphy at 4 on 'Crazy'), they've probably had about one hour to put the choregraphy together and rehearse. Also you'll see some '****-ups', which I guess are mainly due to the floor been extremely fast (it's tiles... we were all sliding like mad last summer :D ).
Which I think would explain why you find them below their usual standard :flower:


:rolleyes: Jamie beat me to it!

[Jamie]

It's not so much "things" as understanding... In MJ I can play with timing and hit breaks in the middle of a sequence.

In WCS I feel hemmed in by the timing. E.g., dancing to "Wade In The Water". That tune has loads of breaks, but what happens if I'm in the middle of, say, a whip when a break comes?

Or even, if I'm fortunate and just managed to finish a move on a break... In MJ I can pose, I can let my partner do some wiggling, there's a few way of marking breaks. What can I do in WCS?

Sorry if this is a noddy question. When it comes to WCS I've very much a beginner.

Right, I'm a beginner myself, however, I seem to have done West Coast Swing in a past life or something because it is so natural to me..

I only know a few moves so I make some up obviously, just as you would in jive, it's very easy if you've got the footwork and timing and elasticity that WCS has.

Refering to you "middle of a whip" comment, what do you do? Do what you do in Jive, stop dead, use your lead to slow your follower right down and let her do a simple west coast style walk away from you down the slot...

There's no rule as far as I'm aware that every move must finish exactly how it's taught... Use the timing, play about.. Mess moves up just as you would in jive.

[Lory]

It's not so much "things" as understanding... In MJ I can play with timing and hit breaks in the middle of a sequence.

In WCS I feel hemmed in by the timing. E.g., dancing to "Wade In The Water". That tune has loads of breaks, but what happens if I'm in the middle of, say, a whip when a break comes?


Kev and I struggled/struggle with exactly the same problem but gradually, little by little, the pieces of the jigsaw seem to be falling into place.

I think a lot is to do with understanding the 'phasing' of the music and the counts of the moves, to be able to think ahead to hit the break. Also, being able to dissect moves, hold beats and double up on the next steps (making single steps into triple's or visa versa), so the emphasis's fall in different places.

Its very hard to explain in writing :sick: :blush:

[Jamie]

Kev and I struggled/struggle with exactly the same problem but gradually, little by little, the pieces of the jigsaw seem to be falling into place.

I think a lot is to do with understanding the 'phasing' of the music and the counts of the moves, to be able to think ahead to hit the break. Also, being able to dissect moves, hold beats and double up on the next steps (making single steps into triple's or visa versa), so the emphasis's fall in different places.

Its very hard to explain in writing :sick: :blush:

Exacltly, extend moves, it's also great because followers have more of a chance of extending moves in WCS than in jive.. Play with the music, if you feel an extended note coming on, extend the move, that's the fun of WCS, it's elastic, one beat your partners winding up and BAM she's off in to some spin or stop dead in eachothers arms.

[straycat]

It's not so much "things" as understanding... In MJ I can play with timing and hit breaks in the middle of a sequence.

In WCS I feel hemmed in by the timing. E.g., dancing to "Wade In The Water". That tune has loads of breaks, but what happens if I'm in the middle of, say, a whip when a break comes?


Easy one. And hard one. Simply put: don't be in the middle of a whip when a break comes. :cool:

That probably sounds - well - like useless advice - especially as I'm coming from a Lindy perspective and don't know how WCS is structured, but - purely from a Lindy perspective - what I mean is this:

In Lindy, as you get better, you dance to the music. You structure your dance to the structure of the music (which is a lot easier with swing than with a lot of musical forms, as the structure is usually very easy to learn and anticipate) - so I automatically tailor what I'm doing to match upcoming breaks. I can often do this with tracks that I've never heard before.

Another Lindy-related point, which I suspect would also apply to WCS is that in Lindy, if you're doing 8-count moves, they fit the musical structure regardless.... so you're not generally going to be in the middle of a move when a break kicks in.

And finally - even the middle of a swingout (equivalent of whip, I think), if I have good connection with my partner, I can put in a break with very little notice, without having to complete the move.

I've posted a link to this before, but since I'm on the lindy perspective thing, here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=mI9FpfytQY4) is another musicality clip. In this one, there's even less in the way of 'flash' moves than in the J&T one (actually, I'm not sure there are any at all) - it's simply some great dancers messing around to the music. Inspired.

[TA Guy]

The clip uses DivX 5, which is not particularly new, choices are to download the codec and install (http://www.divx.com/ it's free, but some other crap included).
Or, install the videolan player (http://www.videolan.org/ free) which avoids external codecs and uses it's own.

[MartinHarper]

What happens if I'm in the middle of, say, a whip when a break comes?

Since it's a follower-centric dance... keep leading a whip and let your partner sort it out?

[Geordieed]

It is a shame that people feel bored if couples like Jordan and Tatiana aren't dancing a routine. 90 Something percent of us will only ever really social dance WCS so it is incredibly instructive to see the professionals freestyle. They make it look easy but put them on a floor with the same track with alot of other dancers and you will see the difference.


I like to watch how they work the slot and work their footwork to make the music work. It is not easy to do. It is instructive to see how they use timing to make the music work for them. You can hit a break at different points within a whip. We know where standard footwork will take us and we know that breaks occur on a downbeat so can factor that into to our patterns.


One last thing watching Jordan and Tatiana freestyle helps us to understand what can be done with the dance and not by copying the moves of the professionals instead. People tend to copy Jordan and Tatiana alot without realising how much technique and polish those guys have. They also have signature moves that sticks out a mile when anyone else tries to emulate them.

[David Franklin]

It is a shame that people feel bored if couples like Jordan and Tatiana aren't dancing a routine. Sorry to be contrary, but I think it is more of a shame if people feel they can't say they were bored, just because they were watching Jordan and Tatianna (swoon!).

Looking at that particular performance, I have to say I was uninspired too. J&T seemed disconnected from the music: sometimes YouTube gets the audio slightly out of sync, and I'm not sure if that was the case here, but it just didn't feel as tight to the music as I would expect from them. It also seemed like they felt compelled to put in some flash moves at the expense of musicality (and it's heartening to see that even J&T can't always make the flash moves match the music perfectly).

None of this is meant to be an attack on J&T, who are probably the best swing dancers in the world right now. But I have always felt the people who say of J&T's (or B&H) routines: "and they're almost as good freestyling" are deluding themselves. Yes, there are a few outstanding freestyle performances out there that show so much musicality you'd think they were choreographed. And unsurprisingly, those are the ones that win competitions and end up on YouTube, so we think it's the norm. But even the top WCS pros will often give J&J performances that leave me feeling "whatever". It's hard to put into words what I mean, and I certainly don't want to imply they give bad performances. But I'm left feeling they were only going through the motions - sure their 'motions' are 100x better than mine, but there's no true spark. The magical performances are the exception rather than the norm.

[David Franklin]

...sometimes YouTube gets the audio slightly out of sync...
Of course, the clip in question isn't from YouTube (Doh!). I'm sure there could still be similar sync problems due to the codec used, etc., though, so it's not a material issue.

On a more positive note - I was enormously impressed by the J&J clip of Benji with Deborah on YouTube, particularly as it shows a top dancer radically changing his style of dancing to suit the music.

[Andreas]

It is an interesting clip and I agree, I prefer much more seeing these people freestyle than do choreographed routines. Although, their choreography is always stunning and I love it.

Anyway, I love the way they move, or more precisely GLIDE. It is amazing. Variety of moves was perfectly fine with me. In terms of musicality I am a bit disappointed, though. They danced through quite a few break points w/o slowing down, something I didn't expect them to do. BUT, this could well be a limitation in WCS because these breaks were not at the end of a phrase but half way through, which means you are quite potentially in the middle of a move at the time. Either way, it'll take me a few decades to get to their WCS level.

As for a comparison to MJ, I think at a song like that MJ could have an advantage because it can at all times dance to the count of 4, hence break at any given time. The fact that it isn't regularly seen is a different story. :rolleyes:

[Yogi_Bear]

Easy one. And hard one. Simply put: don't be in the middle of a whip when a break comes. :cool:

That probably sounds - well - like useless advice - especially as I'm coming from a Lindy perspective and don't know how WCS is structured, but - purely from a Lindy perspective - what I mean is this:

In Lindy, as you get better, you dance to the music. You structure your dance to the structure of the music (which is a lot easier with swing than with a lot of musical forms, as the structure is usually very easy to learn and anticipate) - so I automatically tailor what I'm doing to match upcoming breaks. I can often do this with tracks that I've never heard before.

Another Lindy-related point, which I suspect would also apply to WCS is that in Lindy, if you're doing 8-count moves, they fit the musical structure regardless.... so you're not generally going to be in the middle of a move when a break kicks in.

And finally - even the middle of a swingout (equivalent of whip, I think), if I have good connection with my partner, I can put in a break with very little notice, without having to complete the move.

I've posted a link to this before, but since I'm on the lindy perspective thing, here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=mI9FpfytQY4) is another musicality clip. In this one, there's even less in the way of 'flash' moves than in the J&T one (actually, I'm not sure there are any at all) - it's simply some great dancers messing around to the music. Inspired.

Excellent choice - and here is one of WCS into Lindy.....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5uBwm3FjdP0&mode=related&search=

[Minnie M]

Excellent choice - and here is one of WCS into Lindy.....
:confused: that WAS lindy ......... Hollywood / Dean Collins style etc., Robert & Claire Austin teach it in London and so do Paul & Natasha (of SDF fame)

I love that style of lindy, so kwellll :waycool:

At the end of the day .... they are both swing dances anyway

[DJ Andy]

Excellent choice - and here is one of WCS into Lindy.....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5uBwm3FjdP0&mode=related&search=

Just absolutely superb swing-dancing and a joy to watch!
Thanks.:clap:

[clevedonboy]

:confused: that WAS lindy ......... Hollywood / Dean Collins style etc.,

:yeah: you can tell by the track that it's Lindy (it get's a bit quick)

[MartinHarper]

This could well be a limitation in WCS because these breaks were not at the end of a phrase but half way through, which means you are quite potentially in the middle of a move at the time.
...
As for a comparison to MJ, I think at a song like that MJ could have an advantage because it can at all times dance to the count of 4, hence break at any given time.

If you dance a mix of six-beat and eight-beat stuff in WCS then you can have the end of your moves midway through a phrase if you want. Plus you can break /extend/whatever mid-move. I don't see that MJ has an edge.

[TA Guy]

Another clip of J&T freestyling (for those that wanted them freestyling rather than choreographed routines). Click on 'Les videos', it's named: jordan_tatianna_sss2oo4.avi.

[Geordieed]

For the those out there who are either unimpressed or bored (with ever right to) the question does beg to be asked. What do you think you should get from the WCS professionals. They are not worthy of us.

On another note I have found like many other dances WCS gets more and more difficult. One of the workshops I did this year with an American instructor touched on at one point the musicality you will see with the top pros. The subtlety with which they will show they recognise a phrase change or a break with be different from less experienced dancers.

Looking back again and again as I learn more WCS it is amazing how much more I see. I can't believe how much I missed. God knows how much I am unable to see now because of lack of knowledge. WCS has also given me a greater appreciation for technique in general together with an appreciation for individual ability within dancers. Working from a MJ perspective I don't think I would have been able to see even a quarter of the stuff I do know.

When I first saw Benji I thought he was just too flash whether he was doing a routine or freestyle. These days I can appreciate him for his ability amoungst other things.

[straycat]

In WCS I feel hemmed in by the timing. E.g., dancing to "Wade In The Water". That tune has loads of breaks, but what happens if I'm in the middle of, say, a whip when a break comes?


Semi-relevant, recently found this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=zgbrH-8b2IY) lovely routine to exactly that song...

[David Franklin]

For the those out there who are either unimpressed or bored (with ever right to) the question does beg to be asked. What do you think you should get from the WCS professionals. They are not worthy of us.I'm not at all sure where this is coming from. As professional performers, J&T put their dancing out there for people to watch, appreciate, and comment on. And as professionals, I'm sure they'd would rather honest feedback than sycophantic praise.


Looking back again and again as I learn more WCS it is amazing how much more I see. I can't believe how much I missed. God knows how much I am unable to see now because of lack of knowledge. WCS has also given me a greater appreciation for technique in general together with an appreciation for individual ability within dancers. Working from a MJ perspective I don't think I would have been able to see even a quarter of the stuff I do know.Careful - you are heading dangerously close again to telling us MJ dancers we're too ignorant to be allowed to comment. If I were judging a WCS competition that might be reasonable enough , but when it comes to judging what I like, then my ignorance (or otherwise) is irrelevant. When we do a performance, what the audience finds impressive is not necessarily the moves we consider demanding. It might be frustrating, but the solution is not to criticise the audience. When you start saying "well, that might not look good to the untrained eye, but it's actually really difficult and impressive to those with 10 years training", then you are starting to see the death of the dance form as a mass participation event. It happened in ballroom, let's hope it doesn't happen to WCS.


I do note, incidentally, that when watching WCS competitions, my choices have tallied reasonably closely with the judges - so it's not like we have two completely different sets of criteria out there.

[Geordieed]

And as professionals, I'm sure they'd would rather honest feedback than sycophantic praise.

Careful - you are heading dangerously close again to telling us MJ dancers we're too ignorant to be allowed to comment. If I were judging a WCS competition that might be reasonable enough , but when it comes to judging what I like, then my ignorance (or otherwise) is irrelevant. When we do a performance, what the audience finds impressive is not necessarily the moves we consider demanding. It might be frustrating, but the solution is not to criticise the audience. When you start saying "well, that might not look good to the untrained eye, but it's actually really difficult and impressive to those with 10 years training", then you are starting to see the death of the dance form as a mass participation event. It happened in ballroom, let's hope it doesn't happen to WCS.


I do note, incidentally, that when watching WCS competitions, my choices have tallied reasonably closely with the judges - so it's not like we have two completely different sets of criteria out there.


I am not saying anyone is not allowed to comment. I meant exactly what I said. I see more now because I have learnt more. The more informed you are the better an opinion you can develop as time progresses.

Some of the pros have been dancing since they were very young. The amount of hours these guys dance every week shows through in the way they perform some of the simpliest things. Another thing to add would be the level of performance these guys give after travelling a long way and sometimes teaching for hours that day. You also find alot of people making demands of them through the day. Yes it's their choice to live that life granted.


Sounds like you're are going to end up a fan of WCS.

Well done on getting alot of the judges decisions close to your own.

[ducasi]

Semi-relevant, recently found this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=zgbrH-8b2IY) lovely routine to exactly that song...
Can't listen to it, but watching it, it's another choreographed routine where the musicality has been worked out ahead of time.

Looks cool, but not very instructive in how freestyle musicality in WCS works.

But thanks for the link anyway. :)

[MartinHarper]

Looks cool, but not very instructive in how freestyle musicality in WCS works.

That one is Boogie Woogie, not WCS. It's being danced to slower music than I would normally associate with Boogie Woogie.

[straycat]

Can't listen to it, but watching it, it's another choreographed routine where the musicality has been worked out ahead of time.

Looks cool, but not very instructive in how freestyle musicality in WCS works.

But thanks for the link anyway. :)

Hence the 'semi-relevant' qualifier. On the other hand - there is actually very little in it which could not have been improvised / lead (just the separated stuff - and a seasoned couple wouldn't have any difficulty doing that on the fly either).

I've been trying to find out if this was definitely choreographed or not - haven't been able to find out either way thus far.

[David Franklin]

Looks cool, but not very instructive in how freestyle musicality in WCS works.If you really want info on WCS, try looking at http://www.strictlywestie.com/bulletin/index.php (there's one forum "Ask The Pros" you need to specially register b.t.w.) or the r.a.d archives.

As far as your question goes, my guess is it's as simple as you're currently a much better MJ dancer than a WCS dancer, so you're much more comfortable with chopping and changing (and leading those changes) in MJ. But you can do all those things in WCS as well - and it's not really any different - it's just that you've currently got so much less 'spare brain' when dancing WCS that it seems you can't change anything without it all falling apart.

As far as the timing goes, (and someone more expert than me can chip in here), it really doesn't matter much how you mangle the timing as long as you end up on the right foot for the next move segment. In particular, I saw a quote (if memory serves, from Tatianna) something along the lines of "Don't worry about the girl's footwork if you change the timing. That's up to her to sort out, and if she's a decent follow, she will".

[Geordieed]

Don't know if it helps but I used to find myself picking out the freestyle that I really liked and count out the moves as they happened. I found repeating the process a few times with the same routine helped to make sense out of breaking the structure of the dance. I learnt about working outside of 6 and 8 count and leading patterns less than 6 or 8 that would traditionally be considered basic 6 and 8 count patterns.


When learning more about freestyling WCS it felt like the same conclusion with MJ that the bits inbetween meant more than the moves. Technique wise I'm still trying to get the basics right though.

[Gadget]

That one is Boogie Woogie, not WCS. It's being danced to slower music than I would normally associate with Boogie Woogie.

:confused: how can anyone tell the difference between any of the swing styles? :confused: (especially if you mute the clips)

[straycat]

:confused: how can anyone tell the difference between any of the swing styles? :confused: (especially if you mute the clips)

In this case, the title of the clip might help ('Competition Boogie Woogie') ;)

But yeah - without that, given how slow it is, I couldn't really see anything in the clip which would indicate that's what it was. Whether you mute it or not.

[MartinHarper]

how can anyone tell the difference between any of the swing styles?

Aside from the title... ;-)

It really didn't look like WCS to me; not slotted enough; the guy chases his partner on what would be her WCS anchor, which seems like a no-no for WCS; the jazz steps weren't very WCS-ish; guy not wearing WCS uniform of trousers+shirt; didn't have a WCS-ish 'snap' to the movements. Lots of little things, I guess.

I could buy it being slower Lindy, very slow Boogie Woogie, generic swing blues, maybe an MJ showcase with a heavy swing influence, but not WCS.

[clevedonboy]

:confused: how can anyone tell the difference between any of the swing styles? :confused: (especially if you mute the clips)

That doesn't look like boogie woogie to me - it's more of a generic slow swing style that i've seen in a large number of youtube videos. Still very good though.

Well done boogie woogie looks great and is pretty distinctive - http://youtube.com/watch?v=IcbB1BwpOlw&mode=related&search= (from the same poster on youtube).

[Jamie]

As far as the timing goes, (and someone more expert than me can chip in here), it really doesn't matter much how you mangle the timing as long as you end up on the right foot for the next move segment. In particular, I saw a quote (if memory serves, from Tatianna) something along the lines of "Don't worry about the girl's footwork if you change the timing. That's up to her to sort out, and if she's a decent follow, she will".

Following WCS is actually far far easier (sorry girls) than leading, once you've got your footwork down, you're in the playground and ready to start playing!

I actually prefer following WCS right now because of my limited move repertoir (spellin? lol), and because I can read music well, like most of us here, I can extend my leaders moves and make the dance much more interesting..

But yes going off what Tatiana said, I can sort my own footing out (following), if you lead it well enough, usually our footwork will match and there'll be no errors.

[Keith J]

Hi, its exactly the same concepts, you must consider the music rather than being purest about the 'pattern'. Try some simple ones to start like stopping on the 4 in a Whip when you face your partner.
Also try to think about bleeding the timing through say a right side pass. make it an 8 or 10 beat. TRiple in at the end and re-connect signalling 'were done here & I am good to go'.
Connection is all important as your partner needs to be aware you are 'off' with the freestyle thing for a few moments.
Good connection is the key to start with transferring the message, we need to break or stop. So visit your grips and hand position, high and left on the follow and ensure she is connected.

[MartinHarper]

This thread has some decent info on WCS musicality, ducasi.
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=14434&page=2

[ducasi]

This thread has some decent info on WCS musicality, ducasi.
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=14434&page=2
Thanks some interesting stuff there...

Makes me think that being a beginner at WCS with my existing MJ experience is going to continue to be an even more frustrating experience than being a beginner at MJ was.

[Msfab]

Makes me think that being a beginner at WCS with my existing MJ experience is going to continue to be an even more frustrating experience than being a beginner at MJ was.

Why not see it as a challenge, with a very rewarding out come! :clap:

[MartinHarper]

Makes me think that being a beginner at WCS with my existing MJ experience is going to continue to be an even more frustrating experience than being a beginner at MJ was.

What's making it more frustrating than being a beginner at MJ?

[ducasi]

What's making it more frustrating than being a beginner at MJ?
I didn't know then so much about dancing musically, and didn't mind so much missing breaks, etc., while I was learning MJ.

Now I do, and it appears that musicality in WCS is rather more difficult.

So while I'm still learning the ropes, can't concentrate on the music so much, and could never think things like "hmm, the break is on count 5, and I'm leading her forward on count one...", I feel much worse about every missed break or accent.

Frustrating.

[ducasi]

Why not see it as a challenge, with a very rewarding out come! :clap:
Still unsure exactly what the reward is... Sorry.

[Chef]

I didn't know then so much about dancing musically, and didn't mind so much missing breaks, etc., while I was learning MJ.

Now I do, and it appears that musicality in WCS is rather more difficult.

So while I'm still learning the ropes, can't concentrate on the music so much, and could never think things like "hmm, the break is on count 5, and I'm leading her forward on count one...", I feel much worse about every missed break or accent.

Frustrating.

Well I am still learning the ropes with WCS and Arg Tango and, like you, having to concentrate so hard on the content and the techniquethat there is not enough mental capacity left over to be fully aware of what is going to happen in the music (until it is too late to do anything about it) to be able to fully incorparate all the musicality that one might wish.

The important thing is that now you recogonise the opportunities for musicality and that you care. I am sure that if you was coming into MJ and were able in another dance form where you could express musicality then you would be equally frustrated by your MJ.

Dancing is very frustrating when you continue to get something wrong, and are aware of it (for ignorance is bliss) but that is compensated for by the joy of discovery when you can do something, and understand why you can now do it correctly.

No matter what it is it is never fun being at the bottom of a learning curve and wanting to make your way up.

Take heart, as we all do, at these times and know that if it was really easy to do the everyone would be doing it and one wouldn't value ones achievements as much.

The reward is being able to create a dance of beauty.

[MartinHarper]

It appears that musicality in WCS is rather more difficult.

If you listen to what people tell you, you'll think everything is harder in WCS. "Organise a ****-up in a brewery? Is that a brewery on the West coast or the East coast? Ooh, I'm not sure I could do that on the West coast". People just get stuck in a loop like this whilst dancing:

WCS is hard -> therefore I must do it perfectly -> argh! I made a mistake! -> I'm rubbish at WCS, boohoo -> WCS is hard -> etc[i]

When not actively dancing WCS, people get stuck in this loop instead:

[i]I'm a great MJ dancer -> But I suck at WCS -> WCS must be extra-difficult -> I'm sad, I need to cheer myself up -> Hey, I'm still a great MJ dancer -> But I suck at WCS -> etc

Oh, and this loop is popular amongst people who learnt their fifth WCS move recently:

I'm an uber-dancer! -> I can dance WCS and you can't ... ok, so I can't dance Salsa and you can -> but WCS is a really hard dance, and Salsa is easy-peasy -> that's why I'm an uber-dancer! -> etc

----

Top Ten Reasons why WCS is Easy for Leaders

1. It has a thinking move. Need to think? Do the thinking move. Need to think some more? Do more thinking moves. How easy is that?

2. If you can't remember what the thinking move is, it's the one that looks like you fancy a quick snog. What is the #1 cause of a guy getting distracted mid-dance? Fancying a quick snog. So if you get distracted, just do the first thing on your mind, and it'll be right.

3. The girl is always at point A (one end of the slot) or point B (the other end). As opposed to in MJ, where the girl is frequently at point ***. Spatially and mentally.

4. The guy is always at point M, in the middle. If you don't move at all, call it "sharing the slot" and get bonus style points.

5. If the thinking move is a bit challenging later on in the evening, WCS has a thinking non-move. Do nothing. Let the girl look cool over at point A for a bit, or until you fancy a quick snog.

6. 90% of the work gets delegated to the follower. Being on the right foot? Her job. Musicality? Her job. Looking good? Her job. Making you look good? Her job. Paying for dinner? Ok, that's still your job, but she has to signal the waiter.

7. Guy's footwork = do whatever the heck you like and call it a variation.

8. Girl's footwork = complicated enough to stop her nagging you about the way you just lead 58 Sugar Pushes in a row.

9. At the risk of getting dangerously on-topic, musicality in WCS is super-easy, and it says so on a US dance forum, so it must be true:

Breaks -- You can dance obliviously and play redlight greenlight, stopping wherever you happen to be in the pattern.

10. In WCS, smiling is optional!

----

Ya, and I say that with all the confidence of a guy who still can't lead a whip. Which turns out to be lots, because my thinking move is honed to perfection. See points 1, 2, and 8.

[TheTramp]

Had a great WCS with Peaches tonight in Dundee (well, I enjoyed it!).

Actually started to really feel like I was getting into the music, while still keeping within WCS patterns (the few that I know!). And finding some space to play, and to express myself.

Roll on Paris! :clap:

[ducasi]

Top Ten Reasons why WCS is Easy for Leaders Good post! :respect:

To tell the truth, I think my main problem with WCS is lack of practice. I haven't been getting to classes, and even when I was, I didn't get much freestyle practice. :(

[Geordieed]

I take it Martin Harper doesn't like WCS then...

[Simon]

Top 10 Reasons Why WCS is Easy for LeadersBrilliant post. :clap: Have some rep!

[Feelingpink]

I take it Martin Harper doesn't like WCS then...
I take it that Martin Harper has a sense of humour.

[Geordieed]

I take it that Martin Harper has a sense of humour.

I take it that FeelingPink is a fan of Martin Harper...

[Geordieed]

Just to expand on that reply. I didn't get the impression that it was all humour.

[David Franklin]

I take it that FeelingPink is a fan of Martin Harper...I take it that Geordieed has a sense of humour...

This could go on all night...

[TheTramp]

Seemed humorous to me....

Just because you like something, doesn't mean that you can't make a humorous (sarcastic) comment about it as well.....

[TA Guy]

Seemed like humour to me, tho like a lot of good humour, elements of truth are included :)

[Geordieed]

Seemed humorous to me....

Just because you like something, doesn't mean that you can't make a humorous (sarcastic) comment about it as well.....


True...

Didn't get the humour in everything that was said.

[TheTramp]

Didn't get the humour in everything that was said.

Ah. Well, not everything that is intended to be humourous works out that way. Like I said, it seemed humourous to me, without conveying any impression that Martin doesn't like WCS.

And, on balance of probabilities, I'd guess that it was also a cut and paste job. Apologies to Martin if he did write it himself :blush:

[clevedonboy]

I'm a fan of WCS & I had a good laugh at MH's post - and a lot of it is just so true anyway

[Geordieed]

Ah. Well, not everything that is intended to be humourous works out that way. Like I said, it seemed humourous to me, without conveying any impression that Martin doesn't like WCS.

And, on balance of probabilities, I'd guess that it was also a cut and paste job. Apologies to Martin if he did write it himself :blush:


Thanks Trampy for your replies and your comments. I enjoy a good discussion without braking any crockery. I did go back and read it again to see if I would change my point of view. Maybe I'm just having a slow morning.


The list bit was fine but it was the part before that which got me thinking.

[MartinHarper]

On balance of probabilities, I'd guess that it was also a cut and paste job. Apologies to Martin if he did write it himself :blush:

All my own work. :)

I am fond of WCS, even if it is silly at times.

[Geordieed]

All my own work. :)

I am fond of WCS, even if it is silly at times.



Yes you're right...

[Keith J]

Can we get back to the subject matter now, of WCS and mucicality in MJ. That is of high interest to me as it was a prime reason I started WCS.
However as time has gone by WCS has begun to make 'more sense' in technique, the connection, the dance partnership communication and its ability to take to new levels.

MJ needs to exploit, the quiet zone, connection, mirroring and opposition all of which are taught within WCS.

We teach 'signals' in MJ, but feel we lack connection. (Do I need to enhance explanation of connection at all?)
My thinking at the moment is connection is the key to partnership musicality, or it is a seperate Lead & Follow show.
I understand from Paul Warden the equalisation of dance partnership in terms of should a lead be as musical as the follow, and be as active as the follow is a huge debate for the judges and marking at competition level.

[Gadget]

We teach 'signals' in MJ, but feel we lack connection. (Do I need to enhance explanation of connection at all?)
My thinking at the moment is connection is the key to partnership musicality, or it is a seperate Lead & Follow show.We?

Who is this "we" encompasing?

And why are the skill sets people seem to be looking for from WCS outside of what you* think MJ can offer?


{* using "you" in the same way as you used the "we" :wink:}

[MartinHarper]

MJ needs to exploit, the quiet zone, connection, mirroring and opposition all of which are taught within WCS.

What do you mean by "the quiet zone" and "opposition" within the context of WCS?

[Keith J]

We?

Who is this "we" encompasing?

And why are the skill sets people seem to be looking for from WCS outside of what you* think MJ can offer?


{* using "you" in the same way as you used the "we" :wink:}

The royal 'we' is those of us who teach MJ (over 6 years). I also dance WCS.

The core skill set I teach include 'frame' and 'core balance', extension, connection is always a pre-cursor in my Ceroc classes at Woking.

[Gadget]

Can we get back to the subject matter now, of WCS and mucicality in MJ. That is of high interest to me as it was a prime reason I started WCS.
However as time has gone by WCS has begun to make 'more sense' in technique, the connection, the dance partnership communication and its ability to take to new levels.

The core skill set I teach include 'frame' and 'core balance', extension, connection is always a pre-cursor in my Ceroc classes at Woking.
So, you are saying that you are now teaching the 'core' that dancers can build their musicality on within MJ...

Is it just that you are now teaching it, or that it was being taught and you are now understanding it? I.e. is WCS "easier" to pick up musicality because there is more of a structure in place to do it? Once you 'have it', are there any barriers in taking 'it' into MJ?

As Ducasi pointed out earlier, he has learned musicality through MJ (as have I) and is looking to implement it within WCS: musicality is tailoring the dance to the music. My theory is that what makes WCS easier to pick up musicality also makes it more of a challenge to pull into MJ: the structure.