Should 'Shines' be taught as part of MJ?

[Gus]

I remeber one of the first times I saw Marc doing " A Marc", putting in some of his trademark solo moves. Sometime after I was introduced to the concept of shines and saw that it could look really cool. Recently we've taught a few moves that could be classed as shines. By their nature, they are semi-choreographed moves/mini-routines ... which got me wondering clan they still be classed as MJ? If people, especially for competition, classify the 'lead and follow' as being a key element of MJ, do 'shines' belong in MJ lessons?

[Andreas]

I'd not do it. I dislike Shines in a dance because they break a couple apart. Having said that, I reasonably frequently use them in slower music as alternatives to 'same old same old' footwork. However, I'd not class them as shines there because I don't usually let go of the lady and it only takes a bar as opposed extended abuse. So perhaps there is scope in teaching them as footwork for very brief moments in a dance. But teaching shines that have your partner more or less wait for 2,4,8 or so bars just sucks. :cheers:

[Andy McGregor]

And who says that you have to be touching your partner for there to be effective lead and follow?

IMHO it's the timing and the fact there is lead and follow that makes it MJ. If you're leading your partner in the correct timing but not touching there is an argument that it's still MJ.

[David Bailey]

There's an old discussion "Should shines be included in MJ? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5416)" - interesting to see if people's views have changed.

Mine have probably hardened against it - shines are not my favourite thing even in salsa, and that's with an existing framework. Introducing them into MJ is too much like signals to me - most MJ followers are very unused to being separated out from the leader and can get confused / annoyed / upset.

Shines aren't MJ, to me.

[timbp]

Shines? No! They are not part of the dance.

However, connections do break, and it is better if both partners can dance to reconnect rather than looking lost at the loss of connection, stopping, reconnecting and dancing.

Some education in dancing alone, in a partner dance scenario, might help in this situation.

[MartinHarper]

They are semi-choreographed moves/mini-routines ... which got me wondering can they still be classed as MJ?

I've seen 100% choreographed showcases that get classed as MJ. Why not shines too?

[Jamie]

Sorry to sound thick, but I've never heard of a 'shine' before, can someone gimme a brief description?

[Daisy Chain]

Ten years, I've been dancing and I've no idea what Gus is talking about, so yes, I would like to be taught to shine in a MJ lesson.

Is a shine when the man stops dead, looks at you expectantly, says "Well, go on then!", you freeze with horror and eventually wriggle in an embarrassed fashion and start leading just to get it over with?

Daisy

(An Ignorant Little FLower)

[Donna]

I think shines is a great idea and adds something more interesting to MJ. However, I think if the lead is thinking of doing this when freestyling, it's best done to someone they know is an experienced dancer, who is playful on the dancefloor or just has a natural instinct.

There's nothing worse than doing that to someone who is maybe a beginner or is not yet confident enough on the dancefloor - it makes them feel lost and awkward.

[David Bailey]

I've seen 100% choreographed showcases that get classed as MJ. Why not shines too?
Because the question was (I believe) referring to teaching shines within general dancing culture, rather than the specific area of competition showcase routines.

Should shines be taught in a bog-standard Ceroc class? No, I don't think so.

Should they be taught in specialist workshops? Hmmm, maybe, under the umbrella of a "footwork" workshop.

Should they be used in social dancing? If you both know what you're doing yes, but not with someone you don't know, as it's likely to go wrong. I remember an infamous Marc incident from last year's Southport along these lines... :whistle:

[Jamie]

Is a shine when the man stops dead, looks at you expectantly, says "Well, go on then!", you freeze with horror and eventually wriggle in an embarrassed fashion and start leading just to get it over with?

If this is a 'shine' then yes, I think they should be taught in style workshops, I do ton's of shines in my dancing, usually with experienced dancers, I even get the chance to do shines when I'm following, the leader usually doesn't expect what they're given tho! haha!

But yes, taught in workshops, not so much in classes.

[David Bailey]

Sorry to sound thick, but I've never heard of a 'shine' before, can someone gimme a brief description?

Sorry - shines are a Salsa term for set pieces of footwork - see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsa_(dance)#Shines) for a definition.

Typically they're done to mutliples of 1 bar (e.g. 8, 16, 24 beats), but can be done to halves I think (4, 12, 20, etc.)

[David Bailey]

Oh, and:

Ten years, I've been dancing and I've no idea what Gus is talking about
That's such a good line. I wonder if I should change my sig...

[Gus]

Ten years, I've been dancing and I've no idea what Gus is talking about, so yes, I would like to be taught to shine in a MJ lesson.

Is a shine when the man stops dead, looks at you expectantly, says "Well, go on then!", you freeze with horror and eventually wriggle in an embarrassed fashion and start leading just to get it over with?



Shines - Normally Salsa is a partner dance, danced in a handhold. However advanced dancers always include shines, which are basically "show-offs" and involve fancy footwork and body actions, danced in separation. They are supposed to be improvisational breaks, but there are a huge number of "standard" shines. Also, they fit best during the mambo sections of the tune, but they may be danced whenever the dancers feel appropriate. They are a good recovery trick when the connection or beat is lost during a complicated move, or simply to catch the breath. One possible origin of the name shine is attributed to the period when non-latin tap-dancers would frequent Latin clubs in New York in the 1950s. In tap, when an individual dancer would perform a solo freestyle move, it was considered their "moment to shine". On seeing Salsa dancers perform similar moves the name was transposed and eventually stuck, leading to these moves being called 'shines'.

The reason for the question is that we ended up teaching some solo stuuf in last nights lesson .... not sure if it would constitute a 'shine' or not but it just got me thinking. One part of it was 'shadow dancing'. The lady was behind the chap with minimal contact. The chap then goes into a cha-cha step varaiation whoch the lady shadows. The routine ended up with the guy breaking away, with his back still to the lady, so the lady does a catwalk thing, messes with the guy a bit and does a bit of tango leg-stroking before the guy reaquires the lead. Seemed to go down well, the main reason for teaching it was for the lasses to have confidence to take the focus of the dance and play about a bit.

[TheTramp]

Oh, and:

That's such a good line. I wonder if I should change my sig...

:yeah: :rofl:

Do it. You know you want to! :D

[David Bailey]

The reason for the question is that we ended up teaching some solo stuuf in last nights lesson .... not sure if it would constitute a 'shine' or not but it just got me thinking. One part of it was 'shadow dancing'. The lady was behind the chap with minimal contact. The chap then goes into a cha-cha step varaiation whoch the lady shadows. The routine ended up with the guy breaking away, with his back still to the lady, so the lady does a catwalk thing, messes with the guy a bit and does a bit of tango leg-stroking before the guy reaquires the lead. Seemed to go down well, the main reason for teaching it was for the lasses to have confidence to take the focus of the dance and play about a bit.
Doesn't really sound very shine-y to me - depends how you define it of course. Salsa shines are things like Suzie-Qs, bowties, and that sort of nonsense.

I guess if you define it as "any independent movement when the couple separate and which ends when the couple comes back together", then yes, that's a shine.

[David Bailey]

Do it. You know you want to! :D
Can't be bothered - I turned off viewing sigs ages ago (and avatars for that matter), I haven't missed them.

[Daisy Chain]

.... so the lady does a catwalk thing, messes with the guy a bit and does a bit of tango leg-stroking


Messes with which bit exactly? :really:

Daisy

(An Really Interested Little FLower)

[Donna]

Seemed to go down well, the main reason for teaching it was for the lasses to have confidence to take the focus of the dance and play about a bit.

Thought it was a great lesson Gus. I just stood back and watched and some of the ladies looked a bit :blush: :rofl: but they all looked like they were having a laugh except for one guy... one of the ladies moved her foot too far up his leg and kicked him in the nuts. :rofl:

[Gus]

Doesn't really sound very shine-y to me - depends how you define it of course. Salsa shines are things like Suzie-Qs, bowties, and that sort of nonsense.
I guess if you define it as "any independent movement when the couple separate and which ends when the couple comes back together", then yes, that's a shine.Apologies, my misunderstanding ... lots to learn:( Thanks for the explanation previously. Will have to get hold of some of my salsa mates to show me these things ... may be able to incorporate verison of them?

[TheTramp]

Can't be bothered - I turned off viewing sigs ages ago (and avatars for that matter), I haven't missed them.

I turned off viewing sigs ages ago. Then turned them back on recently, when I heard that something I'd said was being used as someone's.... :whistle:

[David Bailey]

Apologies, my misunderstanding ... lots to learn:( Thanks for the explanation previously. Will have to get hold of some of my salsa mates to show me these things ... may be able to incorporate verison of them?
Well, I don't think it's necessarily a bad definition - just that "shines" are a salsa term, and refer to a distinct set of actions within salsa. (I always thought the name came as a shortening of "shoe shines" because of the motions of some of those silly foot movements, but I know nothing)

One very simple "shine" I use is when your both doing the forward-and-back step (Manhattan? Mambo? Whatever..), and simply disconnect, but keep moving forward and back - and then the guy can do a turn on the forward step.

Only a brief disconnect, but it works OK.

[Jamie]

I've heard it being called Giving 'the floor' before, where you as a leader literally step back, and present an open space of floor for your follower to do a little playing about on their own.. Also, during a break-away if that's what they're called, you break away from your partner and slowly get back together after beckoning eachother until one gives in! haha. I break away sometimes from friends as a mess about kinda thing to do.. but I usually give my followers 'the floor' so they can have a chance to do what they like.

[MartinHarper]

I remember an infamous Marc incident from last year's Southport along these lines...

So spill. :)