Dancing "with" the partner...

[Merovingian]

Hi Guys,

(highly non-technical thread)

I don't know if it's the best thing, or the most difficult thing that has happened to me in a very-long while (maybe both) ;..;..;..; whatever dances I have had till date, I have enjoyed almost all of them. But I've realised (to my horror or surprise) that most of the time I am dancing "at" my partner, rather than "with" her. Don't get me wrong, my lead's still improving, and I always get asked for a dance if I'm not asking anyone else.

This is a bit hard to explain: It's like a feeling you get when you've reached an important milestone in your project, only to realise that something's missing, and you don't know what it is.

So, what exactly is dancing "with" the partner?

You know, the couple on the dance floor who arn't really doing any fancy moves, maybe doing wrong moves ....but you really enjoy watching them dance. What exactly makes a good dance or a dance partner? (not for competitions)

To be frank, I don't really know the question anymore... :blush:

...hope this makes some sense.

[Caro]

Don't know if that will be of any help, but could that be something to do with connecting (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9744) with your partner? Not that I want to refer you to my threads all the time... :whistle: :innocent: :wink: but I think I know what you mean and I expressed it as the difficulty to really 'connect' with your partner.

[Minnie M]

.........So, what exactly is dancing "with" the partner?.

IMHO it is difficult to dance WITH your partner (in the dance sense) until you are confident with your own dancing - then you can relax and enjoy the music and your lovely partner :flower:

BTW confidence doesn't necessarily mean you are a good dancer, just to be comfortable with yourself on the floor.

AND over-confidence can have the opposite effect :really:

Good luck - it is more fun when you are dancing together :clap:

[straycat]

IMHO it is difficult to dance WITH your partner (in the dance sense) until you are confident with your own dancing

:yeah:
I went to an amazing all-weekend blues workshop taught by Rena last weekend - and she started by saying exactly that.

Back to one of my favourite dance-related sayings... a dance with your partner is a conversation. It's constant communication between you and your partner - and one of the essential things you need to do this is good connection .... which leads on to reams and reams of discussion about frame, body-leads, tension / compression and so on. Suffice to say... I began to learn all this from doing a lot of blues (social blues, not performance) - and have since gone for every single connection-based workshop or class I could get my hands on.

Learning other dances (AT & Lindy, if taught correctly) has been invaluable as well. It takes a lot of time, and there's far more involved than meets the eye.... but oh boy, is it ever worth it... :grin:



So, what exactly is dancing "with" the partner?

You know, the couple on the dance floor who aren't really doing any fancy moves, maybe doing wrong moves ....

Which reminds me... keeping things simple is another good start point. If you remove the complexity and difficulty from what you're leading, then you can pay more attention to how you lead it, and to your own dancing.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as a wrong move - if there is, at least 75% of what I lead is 'wrong', because I make so much up - in my world, there's no such thing as a 'textbook' move with textbook timing - I just do.... whatever move, or part of move or completely random thing fits my mood, the music, and my partner....

[spindr]

Step one: take some time to see and feel how your partner is dancing. You may find this easier if you lead something slightly simpler that you feel confident about.

SpinDr

[CeeCee]

originally posted by Merovingian
But I've realised (to my horror or surprise) that most of the time I am dancing "at" my partner, rather than "with" her.

Well done for noticing. This suggests you have reached another level and you are becoming more aware of connection and communication with your partner.

You've already had some great suggestions and advice about learning other dances, keeping it simple, enjoying the music and having fun. It all helps.


originally posted by straycat264
Back to one of my favourite dance-related sayings... a dance with your partner is a conversation.
Heard this often and it always seems so apt.
I feel that when I am communicating with my partner and we are listening to each other then it feels more like we are dancing with each other.

[David Bailey]

You know, the couple on the dance floor who arn't really doing any fancy moves, maybe doing wrong moves ....but you really enjoy watching them dance. What exactly makes a good dance or a dance partner? (not for competitions).
Yes, that'll be connection. Very difficult to define, but you know it when you see it.


Which reminds me... keeping things simple is another good start point. If you remove the complexity and difficulty from what you're leading, then you can pay more attention to how you lead it, and to your own dancing.
For a typical dance with someone I know, I reckon I now do about 2-3 "proper" Ceroc moves per dance now, most of the rest of the time is spent doing returns, walks, and general messing-around.

I've said it before - at some point, I'll get to doing a dance with no moves :)

[MartinHarper]

What exactly is dancing "with" the partner?

1) Noticing what she does.
2) Responding to what you notice.

Both of these are much easier said than done.

[Juju]

...hope this makes some sense.

Yes, it does. Good question to ask. Have no idea about the answer, mind. Maybe it's because I'm a follower and not a leader. Maybe it's because I know nothing. :what:


...and general messing-around.

That's all I ever do on the dancefloor. I must be really good. :D

[Trouble]

I've said it before - at some point, I'll get to doing a dance with no moves :)

bit like Friday then :whistle:

[Andreas]

So, what exactly is dancing "with" the partner?

You know, the couple on the dance floor who arn't really doing any fancy moves, maybe doing wrong moves ....but you really enjoy watching them dance. What exactly makes a good dance or a dance partner?

To give the other person the feeling he/she is the only one in the world you'd like to share this dance with. :awe:

And imply lots of things you will never do. :whistle: :rofl:

[NZ Monkey]

To give the other person the feeling he/she is the only one in the world you'd like to share this dance with. :awe:

And imply lots of things you will never do. :whistle: :rofl:What about implying things you would do? :devil:

[Andreas]

What about implying things you would do? :devil:
That is then referred to being sleazy. :na: Or you may get more than you bargained for ... :eek:

[NZ Monkey]

That is then referred to being sleazy. :na: Or you may get more than you bargained for ... :eek:Gotcha.

The difference between being sleazy and dancing with your partner is therefore intention.

Q.E.D.

My defence next time will be a link to this thread :na:

[Twirly]

I suspect that sleaze is in the eye of the beholder...

[TheTramp]

Gotcha.

The difference between being sleazy and dancing with your partner is therefore intention.

Absolutely. In the committal of every crime, you need both Actus Reus, and Mens Rea.

[David Bailey]

The difference between being sleazy and dancing with your partner is therefore intention.
Yes - the intention of your partner, that is :innocent:

[JonD]

So, what exactly is dancing "with" the partner?
Excellent question and very relevant to my dancing at the moment.

During a private AT lesson a week or so ago I was asked; "Jon, why are you not with Julie"? I immediately knew exactly what Stella meant - I was focussed on sundry technical points to do with leading, taking a step, timing and foot position and had lost my connection with my partner. The strange thing is that I put it right instinctively and almost immediately ("Yes Jon, yes Jon" from Stella) but I can't put my finger on how. In the dances I have had since I know that I've been "with" my partners more, so I should be able to rationalise it!

At a prosaic level, I did ensure that I kept my physical attention on my partner by keeping my chest facing her (AT thing that doesn't translate exactly to MJ - though I guess it wouldn't hurt) but I think it is more to do with where your focus is and that is less easily defined.

I think the change is that I've been more focussed on my partner than on the movement I am making or the lead for that movement. It's not "concentration" and it's not entirely conscious; I'm just aware of where she is, how she is moving and how she is reacting to me and the music. As a result I'm more sensitive to the conversaton between us - I don't "leave her behind" in turns, stop her abruptly or ignore her when she wants to change or develop something in the dance.

There's lots of good advice on here; it's hard to have your primary focus on your partner if you're not confident about your lead, the figure you're trying to perform or you're dodging other couples on the dance floor. I know it's not much help but, as you walk out onto the floor, try thinking about focussing on your partner above anything else and see what happens.

(Being a sweet, innocent sort of guy, I know nothing about sleaze - honest)

[Genie]

Absolutely. In the committal of every crime, you need both Actus Reus, and Mens Rea.

I knew it was all Men's fault.

[Trouble]

I knew it was all Men's fault.

:yeah:

seconded :flower:

[TheTramp]

Oh. Haha. I'm sure my criminal law lecturer will like that one.

I'm fairly sure that she's already heard it about 1134598314 times though...

[Genie]

Oh. Haha. I'm sure my criminal law lecturer will like that one.

I'm fairly sure that she's already heard it about 1134598314 times though...

Yea, but I'm not your criminal law lecturer. And it amused me. As you often do.

[Gav]

Hi Merovingian.

Not sure if this is any help, but I think what you're looking for is what happened to me on Monday. I had "that moment" when suddenly I didn't need to think about moves any more (obviously I still need to learn more and work on what I do know) and for the first time ever, I actually heard the music and reacted to it (still lots of work required there:blush: ).

Anyway, that night somone told me that when I danced with one particular lady, it looked liked we've been dancing together for years (our second ever dance I think!?).

I danced with her again on Friday night quite a lot and in the first dance I noticed that she was off-balance, or wrong-footed from time to time. Because I wasn't panicking about what move to do next, I spent a little time watching and thinking and found that if I responded to her feedback properly, it didn't happen any more. That is, delaying a lead in by a split second until I feel some tension, another example was a turn out which worked better when I waited to feel a good compression between us.

OK, that dance consisted mostly of the same 1/2 dozen moves over and over, but at the end she thanked me for it and said that she noticed how my lead was so much better.

Very cheesy I know, but when I explained what it was I had done, she commented about how most men she dances with would never be so considerate.:blush:

Really I was trying to make my dancing better, but in doing so, I accidentally made it better for my partner and earned myself some respect. :clap:

It's incredible the things you start to notice when you're not panicking about what comes next!

[Genie]

Yes. It is nice when a lead can read your body movements enough not to throw you off balance :) Good for you in finding the music though. That's so important in a good dance.

[Ghost]

I've said it before - at some point, I'll get to doing a dance with no moves :)
Have you tried dancing with Freya, Georgious Dancer, Princess Fi, Rachel or WittyBird recently?

No moves required :respect:

[David Bailey]

Have you tried dancing with Freya, Georgious Dancer, Princess Fi, Rachel or WittyBird recently?
Ooh no - I'm too scared, they're the Good Dancers. :innocent:

And I'm certainly not getting into a discussion of the dance styles of various forumites, I don't have that much pf a death wish :rofl:

[Ghost]

And I'm certainly not getting into a discussion of the dance styles of various forumites, I don't have that much pf a death wish :rofl:
Hmmm good point. I deliberately didn't go for a comprehensive list so hopefully I won't get yelled at.....

On a slightly more serious note though, Merovingian if you quietly ask around the dancers at your venues, they should be able to point out certain dancers who are easier to dance "with". It does vary a bit according to personal taste though.

[Gav]

On a slightly more serious note though, Merovingian if you quietly ask around the dancers at your venues, they should be able to point out certain dancers who are easier to dance "with". It does vary a bit according to personal taste though.

"The only way to get smarter, is by playing a smarter opponent" - The fundamentals of chess, 1885

Now I'm not suggesting that your partner is your opponent! :na:
But surely if you want to get better, you need to dance with better, sometimes "challenging" partners?

[Minnie M]

"The only way to get smarter, is by playing a smarter opponent" - The fundamentals of chess, 1885.......
:yeah: :respect: :yeah:
Great quote - have some rep :flower:

[Gav]

:yeah: :respect: :yeah:
Great quote - have some rep :flower:

Thanks, but I'm only applying a famous quote to what everyone keeps telling me! :cool:

[CeeCee]

originally posted by straycat264
I just do.... whatever move, or part of move or completely random thing fits my mood, the music, and my partner....
How about this for a random thing to fit the mood...

At the weekend I danced with a guy who I've never met before. He did something to me that noone has ever done, on any dance floor, at any time and I mean ever.

We were dancing to a lovely slow number, with lots of smiling and eye contact it was a really nice dance. He invited me to turn, his hand draped over his head for a familiar comb, we released, his hand gently stroked my outstretched arm to my elbow.

I thought we were dancing well with each other when he reached forward and ...





tickled my armpit !!!

What the...

It certainly spoilt the moment and I was lost for words. I told a friend and she was as surprised as I was.

What was he trying to lead and how was I expected to follow?



.

[Genie]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[David Franklin]

I thought we were dancing well with each other when he reached forward and ...

tickled my armpit !!!

What the...

What was he trying to lead and how was I expected to follow?
"Well, it worked when Patrick Swayze did it..." :blush:

[straycat]

tickled my armpit !!!

What the...

It certainly spoilt the moment and I was lost for words. I told a friend and she was as surprised as I was.

What was he trying to lead and how was I expected to follow?

Isn't that one of many "standard" signals for The Nutcracker? :whistle:

[CeeCee]

Isn't that one of many "standard" signals for The Nutcracker? :whistle:
Oh good, at least I'll know next time.


originally posted by DavidJames (from the 'evil or instructive' thread)
Originally Posted by Caro
The Straighjacket is an Evil, Evil, move. I don't think I have ever managed to do it ... smoothly, so was it me anticipating or the leader not being accurate enough ?

Possibly both.
If you tried to move out of it, that's anticipation.
If the leader's looking / feeling awkward with it, that's bad leading.

Let us not forget the element of choice.

I know leaders who regularly lead me into a straightjacket. It never occurs to me to resist or complain because I am comfortable doing this move with them. This doesn't mean that I want to be in this helpless, vulnerable position with everyone. It's my choice.

Last night I danced with a guy who led me into a straightjacket. His facial expressions, attitude and previous moves during this dance made me uncomfortable so I worked my way out of it.
He tried again, I aborted the move.
He glared at me, grunted something, gritted his teeth, clamped his thumbs and tried for a third time.
The alpha male had emerged.

It wasn't going to happen. We stopped dancing. Clearly our interaction wasn't about mutual respect and enjoyment. He had his agenda and continued without my consent. We weren't dancing with each other at all.

I didn't want to do that move with him, simple.

[TheTramp]

Ah. But did he lead pretzels too then?? :rolleyes:

[Jhutch]

Which move is the straightjacket?:sick:

[Juju]

Which move is the straightjacket?:sick:

:yeah:

[Trouble]

How about this for a random thing to fit the mood...

At the weekend I danced with a guy who I've never met before. He did something to me that noone has ever done, on any dance floor, at any time and I mean ever.

We were dancing to a lovely slow number, with lots of smiling and eye contact it was a really nice dance. He invited me to turn, his hand draped over his head for a familiar comb, we released, his hand gently stroked my outstretched arm to my elbow.

I thought we were dancing well with each other when he reached forward and ...





tickled my armpit !!!

What the...

It certainly spoilt the moment and I was lost for words. I told a friend and she was as surprised as I was.

What was he trying to lead and how was I expected to follow?



.

honestly, dont think ive laughed out loud on anything on the forum before but this one tickled me :flower: :D

[Caro]

Which move is the straightjacket?:sick:


:yeah:

it's that move where the lady ends up facing the guy with both her arms in a half-nelson position behind her back, with the guy still holding both her hands behing her back. It's difficult to get there smoothly, but then, when you're there, the lady often feels totally trapped and at the guys' 'mercy'

horrible move, 1. it's not often well lead and followed, 2. some ladies just feel uncomfortable in that position (physically and emotionally), as CeeCee said.

[David Bailey]

it's that move where the lady ends up facing the guy with both her arms in a half-nelson position behind her back, with the guy still holding both her hands behing her back. It's difficult to get there smoothly, but then, when you're there, the lady often feels totally trapped and at the guys' 'mercy'

horrible move, 1. it's not often well lead and followed, 2. some ladies just feel uncomfortable in that position (physically and emotionally), as CeeCee said.
Ah, it's my favourite move... :innocent:

(Actually, not now - it used to be a couple of years ago, though)

[Genie]

it's that move where the lady ends up facing the guy with both her arms in a half-nelson position behind her back, with the guy still holding both her hands behing her back. It's difficult to get there smoothly, but then, when you're there, the lady often feels totally trapped and at the guys' 'mercy'

horrible move, 1. it's not often well lead and followed, 2. some ladies just feel uncomfortable in that position (physically and emotionally), as CeeCee said.

:yum: I don't think I know that one :drool:

[TheTramp]

:yum: I don't think I know that one :drool:

I'll show you. If you ever come to Culter again!

[Genie]

I will, I will. I am flying to Manchester tomorrow to visit the Grandparents. I will be back Monday, and in Culter on Tuesday (assuming I can get a lift off Gadget - I shall bribe him with food...)

[TheTramp]

I will, I will. I am flying to Manchester tomorrow to visit the Grandparents. I will be back Monday, and in Culter on Tuesday (assuming I can get a lift off Gadget - I shall bribe him with food...)

Or maybe try bribing other people. Food should do it!! :rolleyes:

[Genie]

Well yes. But Gadget would have to give me a lift back. And yes, you can come for dinner before Culter. I should love to have you. And even feed you dinner. :) xx

[Juju]

it's that move where the lady ends up facing the guy with both her arms in a half-nelson position behind her back, with the guy still holding both her hands behing her back. It's difficult to get there smoothly, but then, when you're there, the lady often feels totally trapped and at the guys' 'mercy'

horrible move, 1. it's not often well lead and followed, 2. some ladies just feel uncomfortable in that position (physically and emotionally), as CeeCee said.

You know, I don't recall anyone doing that move on me, ever. Maybe it's because I come across as the sort of girl who would kick up a fuss if they tried it - I can be very vocal on the dancefloor, in a sort of confused way.... :what:

[David Bailey]

You know, I don't recall anyone doing that move on me, ever. Maybe it's because I come across as the sort of girl who would kick up a fuss if they tried it - I can be very vocal on the dancefloor, in a sort of confused way.... :what:
If it's led well, you don't get the chance - by the time you realise you're in it, you're out of it again :)

[angelblue]

!!!I think this is a very good thread!!!

Dancing "with" a partner rather than "at" them really can make the difference between a good and bad night out.

As a lead and a follow i think it is about good connection, however there are the occasions when you dance with someone and you just "fit"

You cant buy this type of chemistry but you can create the next best feeling with is gentle but firm lead

For the first few bars of the track hold your follow close(not too close as this can be intimidating) and move side to side-but lead it!!Not just stepping it!You will be able feel how responsive she is and give her an indication of how strong your lead is. She will subconciously adjust her resistance to you and hopefully you will have a great dance. If you have 2 moves or 20 shouldnt matter if they are done with a great lead.

Because you have took the time to do this, you wont be forcing your lead upon her, so instead of dancing at her you will be dancing together, both adjusting to get the right connection. (Hope this helps and is not too much)

:D

[Lory]

You cant buy this type of chemistry but you can create the next best feeling with is gentle but firm lead

For the first few bars of the track hold your follow close(not too close as this can be intimidating) and move side to side-but lead it!!Not just stepping it!You will be able feel how responsive she is and give her an indication of how strong your lead is. She will subconciously adjust her resistance to you and hopefully you will have a great dance. If you have 2 moves or 20 shouldnt matter if they are done with a great lead.


I agree with some of what you've said but I've had dances when the technical side of the lead is perfect, just the right amount of tension and compression, it's in time, with interesting musicality but for some reason, it just feels clinical, aloof and measured, as if they're holding something back, maybe it's nerves or shyness, or they just don't like dancing with me? :sick:

Even though everything is so called 'right' I still feel as though i'm dancing on my own. :sad:

Then there's other times, when the whole dance goes 'technically' wrong but the emotional connection is perfect, laughing together is a big icebreaker.:rofl: :hug:

If someone asked me to pinpoint exactly how to make it feel right, I couldn't, as I don't think it's something that can be learnt or faked! It has to come from within and that why, when it does happen it feels so fabulous :drool: :clap:

Maybe it has a lot to do with those old chestnuts, eye contact and smiling again.:yeah:

[angelblue]

Maybe it has a lot to do with those old chestnuts, eye contact and smiling again.:yeah:

yes this is very true...

there is nothing worse than dancing with someone who is looking at who is looking at him

that good ol' smiling always works even if its going wrong you gotta show them pearly whites.

[CeeCee]

originally posted by angelblue
As a lead and a follow i think it is about good connection, however there are the occasions when you dance with someone and you just "fit"

You cant buy this type of chemistry but you can create the next best feeling with is gentle but firm lead
I've been thinking about the subject of this thread, leading, following, dancing with, dancing at and good connection. Do we have to hold hands to have a good connection?

I've had some fun following without holding hands with the leader. It works. It shows that it's unnecessary for leaders to clamp the follower's hands and yank them through the moves.

Without holding hands we still have a connection. How does that work? Often it flows beautifully as he leads my walks forwards, backwards, turns and side steps. It feels great.

I've noticed that it doesn't work quite so well if I start thinking about the space between us instead of feeling the space between us.

Has anyone else tried leading and following without holding?





.

[TheTramp]

Has anyone else tried leading and following without holding?

Yeah. Do it occasionally, for a bit of fun!

Had a great dance in Inverness with Tiggerbabe, without actually touching. She followed everything I "led" no problem.... :worthy:

[MartinHarper]

A purely visual connection (or a purely physical connection) isn't as versatile and precise as one that is both physical and visual. Both can be made to work.

Relating this back to the topic, it occurs to me that having the follower close her eyes reduces her styling options. Equally, having the leader not touch his partner reduces his styling options. Either of these reductions could well result in a better feeling of dancing "with" each other, as there just aren't as many opportunities to style independantly.

[CeeCee]

Admittedly I wasn't thinking of versatility, precision or the absence of independent styling options but I am now.

It can be fun. No hands, he leads, I follow, it works, it's magic.

My personal impression is that when following without a physical connection it still feels like I'm dancing with my partner.


.

[Babycham]

I've noticed that it doesn't work quite so well if I start thinking about the space between us instead of feeling the space between us.

Has anyone else tried leading and following without holding?


.

I've done this in salsa with friends with whom I had a great connection..'look Mum, no hands!' - it's fun!

I also have done it in AT, but not so much for fun, in classes that aimed to teach how to establish/feel connection with your partner. In fact - how to 'listen'. Another thing we did was to play around with switching within the couple between who was leading and who was following without any verbal communication and no physical connection. This really heightened our awareness of the 'conversation' between leader and follower - awesome!