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Gadget
15th-May-2003, 10:48 AM
Something that Wendy said prompted me to wonder, does the quantity of dances and who you dance with relate to the amount of fun you have in an evening? (Tic all that apply, assuming that you don’t feel obligated to dance)

Chicklet
15th-May-2003, 11:09 AM
It is also possible to have a lot of fun and enjoy the night dancing relatively little but deliberately watching and absorbing music, moves, styles, smiles, outfits, quirks, body language etc etc..

Or does everybody start getting a buzz from the "periferals" and find that it passes??

Aleks
15th-May-2003, 11:16 AM
I was asked recently by an "experienced" Edinburgh dancer whether there were any "good men" to dance with that night.....knowing this person to be quite selective about her choice of partner/dancer I replied, "That's a stupid question to ask me, isn't it? I dance with everyone and enjoy every dance", to which she wrinkled her nose and walked off.

Obviously there are some dances you enjoy more or less than others for various reasons but, on the whole, I prefer to be dancing than to be watching/waiting for a "good" partner......


Wendy - I'd be upset if someone called me an "exclusive" dancer too. Doesn't make sense when we choose to be taxi dancers, does it?

Dave Hancock
15th-May-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
, does the quantity of dances and who you dance with relate to the amount of fun you have in an evening?

I don't think there is a huge amount of correlation between the number of dances and the amount of fun you have, I think the the real link is who you dance with. I'd probably rather have just a few really nice dances with a partner who is interacting with me and having as much fun as I'm having, rather than a full night of dancing with dancers whom you don't connect with.

PeterL
15th-May-2003, 11:41 AM
maybe it is just me, but my favourite dances are when the follower says "it's my first night".

There is something about having someone follow you with no preconceptions about what they are supposed to do.

This is where you really get to lead.:D

Chicklet
15th-May-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
. I'd probably rather have just a few really nice dances with a partner who is interacting with me and having as much fun as I'm having, rather than a full night of dancing with dancers whom you don't connect with.


But how often can you know if they will before you do?

And what would be the ideal way (IYO) to spend the time inbetween?

Dave Hancock
15th-May-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by PeterL
maybe it is just me, but my favourite dances are when the follower says "it's my first night".

There is something about having someone follow you with no preconceptions about what they are supposed to do.

This is where you really get to lead.:D

Totally disagree with you that you really get to lead beginners, in my experience the vast majority of beginners are extremely nervous and generally dance their 4 moves from memory and thus you are not leading at all, but merely performing 4 moves in a set pattern.

I think following while a seemingly natural thing to do is one of the hardest things for a lady to do and requires a great deal of practice.

PeterL
15th-May-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Totally disagree with you that you really get to lead beginners, in my experience the vast majority of beginners are extremely nervous and generally dance their 4 moves from memory and thus you are not leading at all, but merely performing 4 moves in a set pattern.

I think following while a seemingly natural thing to do is one of the hardest things for a lady to do and requires a great deal of practice.


That is the challenge, and believe me when it goes right which is more often than you would think, it is the most fun you can have.

And yes following is a difficult thing to do, so when dancing with someone who doesn't know how to, as I said , is where you really learn to lead.

Dave Hancock
15th-May-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by PeterL
it is the most fun you can have.



:confused: :confused:...does Julie read the forum :wink:

PeterL
15th-May-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
:confused: :confused:...does Julie read the forum :wink:

yes

Graham
15th-May-2003, 11:57 AM
I'm with Dave on this one. Most beginners can't follow, and it's a tricky balance between letting them feel comfortable by using moves they recognise and deliberately leading moves they don't know so they can't just do it themselves. Don't get me wrong - I have lots of fun dancing with beginners, and it's really good at developing your leading, but it's precisely the fact that they can't follow that highlights where you're being imprecise and allows you to correct/develop.

Wendy
15th-May-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
Wendy - I'd be upset if someone called me an "exclusive" dancer too. Doesn't make sense when we choose to be taxi dancers, does it? When I saw your name I was kinda hoping you'd join in on this...

Wxxx

TheTramp
15th-May-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
That is the challenge, and believe me when it goes right which is more often than you would think, it is the most fun you can have.

And yes following is a difficult thing to do, so when dancing with someone who doesn't know how to, as I said , is where you really learn to lead. Sorry. Can't possibly agree with your first statement. Don't quite see how you can make it.

Okie, so, I do enjoy dancing with beginners. And the challenge of leading them, when they are nervous, and don't really know what's happening. And yes, when it goes reasonably well, and the smile you get at the end of (and maybe even during if they're brave enough) the dance, is very rewarding. But to say that's the 'most fun you can have' just can't be right.

That's like saying that you'd prefer to go play a football match with your pub team, than go play with (insert your choice of top football side here). Or that you'd prefer fish and chips, to dinner at a top restaurant.

While, as I said, dancing with beginners does have it's own reward, and I do enjoy doing it, dancing with someone who you really connect with, with who it becomes more like dancing, rather than just connecting up a few moves in a row, with who you can give the barest of leads, knowing that they will follow you, and with who you can really express yourself with is what everyone should be aiming for. Where you forget everyone else around you, and you're just there for your partner, and the dance.

It doesn't happen very often. But to get as close as possible, as often as possible......

I do agree with your second statement though... :D

Steve

PeterL
15th-May-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Sorry. Can't possibly agree with your first statement. Don't quite see how you can make it.



I stand by this statement and people who have danced with me on there first or second night will know what I mean.
When you can lead someone all the way through a dance who hasn't got a clue what you are doing, then that is fun.

whereas I have had some dances with experienced dancers that I just haven't enjoyed because of there preconceptions of what should be done.

not sure if what I am trying to say is totally clear but a few people out there who know me will get what I mean.

Or maybe it is just that I am a begginer myself and prefer dancing with people of my own level:D

Wendy
15th-May-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
whereas I have had some dances with experienced dancers that I just haven't enjoyed because of there preconceptions of what should be done. So how was your dance with me last night ????? :devil:

Wxxx

Graham
15th-May-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
whereas I have had some dances with experienced dancers that I just haven't enjoyed because of there preconceptions of what should be done. I don't think anyone's saying that dancing with an experienced dancer is always better than dancing with a beginner. Just that it's possible to have way more fun with a dancer who you really connect with, who feels the music in the same way, who lets you do your thing and you almost instinctively know what each other are going to do. IMO, you just don't get beginners who fall into this category very often. Occasionally you do get one, and I agree that this can be really special, partly because it's so unexpected, but I think this has happened to me perhaps twice in the two years I've been dancing: one of these people has now been dancing for about 18 months and is still a joy to dance with - it's because she's such a great dancer that it was fun, not because she was a beginner.

PeterL
15th-May-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Wendy
So how was your dance with me last night ????? :devil:

Wxxx

It was great, I was a bit of form but I am just a begginer

Dave Hancock
15th-May-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Wendy
So how was your dance with me last night ????? :devil:


Did she let you lead???

Gadget
15th-May-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
...Or does everybody start getting a buzz from the "periferals" and find that it passes??
I would say it never passes, but if you have a choice - to be out there dancing, or standing, watching; which would you choose?


Originally posted by David Hancock
I don't think there is a huge amount of correlation between the number of dances and the amount of fun you have, I think the the real link is who you dance with.
But surley you raise the odds of having a 'good' dance (ie one you "link" with) or have more 'good' dances if you have more dances in general?


Origionally posted by Peter L
maybe it is just me, but my favourite dances are when the follower says "it's my first night".
Yup, with you 100%.


Origionally posted by David Hancock
Totally disagree with you that you really get to lead beginners, in my experience the vast majority of beginners are extremely nervous and generally dance their 4 moves from memory and thus you are not leading at all, but merely performing 4 moves in a set pattern.
Yea, but aren't you a taxi dancer, and so are almost 'required' to dance the "four moves in a set pattern"?
I try to lead beginners into the 4 moves, hardly ever in the taught order {lack of memory rather than by design}, and throw in a variation when I think that they are getting the hang of one move, then go back to the taught move again.
In my experience, the vast majority of beginners get less nervous and follow better after the first few moves when they gain more confidence; by the end of the dance I would say that the beginners I dance with are definetly following.

Dave Hancock
15th-May-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Gadget


In my experience, the vast majority of beginners get less nervous and follow better after the first few moves when they gain more confidence; by the end of the dance I would say that the beginners I dance with are definetly following.

Big generalisation about beginners getting less nervous after a few moves and in all my years of taxi'ing (3 or 4 now) I could probably count on one hand the amount of dancers who were definetly following at the end of the dance.

Dave Hancock
15th-May-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Gadget


Yea, but aren't you a taxi dancer, and so are almost 'required' to dance the "four moves in a set pattern"?


Not at all, think the role of a taxi dancer has been discussed on other threads and it is definitely not to dance the "four moves in a set pattern"

Graham
15th-May-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Big generalisation about beginners getting less nervous after a few moves and in all my years of taxi'ing (3 or 4 now) I could probably count on one hand the amount of dancers who were definetly following at the end of the dance. Although speaking with a lot less experience, I completely agree. I think Peter and Gadget are confusing "following" with "not leading". There's a big difference.

Dave Hancock
15th-May-2003, 01:26 PM
Graham,

No way, I actually agree with you:D

Gadget
15th-May-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Although speaking with a lot less experience, I completely agree. I think Peter and Gadget are confusing "following" with "not leading". There's a big difference.
{FYI I havn't been dancing that long, and Dave is a much better dancer than me}
Hmmm... :confused: Don't actually see much of a difference: If the lady is not leading, going where I am guiding her, spinning where I want them, catching my hand when offered and moving in the same steps as me {you know what I mean}; then how does this differ from following?
OK, so they don't know the correct cues for neck-breaks, dips etc - but you should never be doing these moves with a beginner anyway! They may be a bit wobbly on spins, but that's just practice and I try to be consious of the number of spins and break them with fairly static moves (arm jive, side 2 side, basket...)

The only move I have ever had problems with leading (when it's not been taught) is the yo-yo {like the 1st move but led with the other hand} and this is jsut because they don't know what they should do - now if I want to lead a yo-yo I lead a 1st move before it and hope that they catch the similarities.


Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Big generalisation about beginners getting less nervous after a few moves
perhaps a better phrase would be "more relaxed" - you can still be nervous then. :wink:
Re: taxi dancers - I know the good job you all do, but you are there to go over the class {as well as all the rest of it}

TheTramp
15th-May-2003, 01:42 PM
*sighs* Me too..... (agree with Graham that is)

Steve

TheTramp
15th-May-2003, 01:59 PM
Hmmm... Don't actually see much of a difference: If the lady is not leading, going where I am guiding her, spinning where I want them, catching my hand when offered and moving in the same steps as me {you know what I mean}; then how does this differ from following?Okie. First up, how many beginner ladies do you ever find who don't lead. I've never found one, and I've been taxi-dancing and teaching for longer than Dave. It's quite hard finding experienced dancers who don't lead, let alone beginners.

If you're doing the class moves that they've just learnt in freestyle, then they aren't following, they're just repeating what they've learnt. And doing almost any other move other than what they've done in the class, usually doesn't work 100% right (apart from things like arm jives, man spins, where it's almost impossible not to follow, or where the man does most of the move).

Like anything, following (and leading) is a skill that has to be learnt, and no-one can do it straight away (although, there are lots of degrees of 'not being able to do it').

And I still find it hard (impossible) to believe that you would prefer to dance with a completely new 'first timer', than an experienced dancer. I don't know who your favourite partners are, and I'm not going to start naming mine here (:D), but (as said before) while I agree that dancing with beginners does have it's own rewards, dancing with an experienced dancer who you connect with. No comparison.

And yes, I agree that sometimes I dance with experienced (and good) dancers who I don't connect with, and have horrendous dances, that's a specific, rather than a generalisation.

Still, on the other hand, why am I complaining. I'll just keep all the experienced dancers to myself (do I still have to share with Dave and Graham?)!! :na:

Steve

Dave Hancock
15th-May-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp

Still, on the other hand, why am I complaining. I'll just keep all the experienced dancers to myself (do I still have to share with Dave and Graham?)!! :na:


Definately, share and share alike we say up here:wink:

Dave Hancock
15th-May-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
...I don't know who your favourite partners are, and I'm not going to start naming mine here (:D)...


It's okay big guy, you won't embarrass me that easily

:D

TheTramp
15th-May-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
It's okay big guy, you won't embarrass me that easily

:D Okie. So it's Dave.

Especially in the kilt!

:sorry

Steve

PeterL
15th-May-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp

And I still find it hard (impossible) to believe that you would prefer to dance with a completely new 'first timer', than an experienced dancer. I don't know who your favourite partners are, and I'm not going to start naming mine here (:D), but (as said before) while I agree that dancing with beginners does have it's own rewards, dancing with an experienced dancer who you connect with. No comparison.



Maybe it is the teacher in me. I still maintain that it is more fun to lead someone well on there first(second) night than an experienced dancer. Don't get me wrong I enjoy dancing with anyone and get a thrill out of all dances. Good bad or as some people say BTC.

So lets agree to differ on this. Horses for courses ad variety is the spice of life, if all followers danced the same it would be a very boring world.

As far as following taking practice is concerned I agree. You manipualte your lead for the ability of the dancer. It is amazing how complicated a move you can do with someone on there first night if you lead it well.

Infact it is easier to do a pretzel than a YO-YO with someone who doesn't know either.

If you vary the moves to make them easier to follow, don't expect the follower to step into exactly the right place etc, you would be amazed what can be acheived.

A blank slate can be far more fun to doodle on than a masterpiece is to look at.

Gadget
15th-May-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Okie. First up, how many beginner ladies do you ever find who don't lead. I've never found one, and I've been taxi-dancing and teaching for longer than Dave. It's quite hard finding experienced dancers who don't lead, let alone beginners.
tries to lead, yes. And I have more than once come off a dance floor with shoulders stiff from 'fighting' for the lead - it doesn't mean that neither of us enjoyed the dance, or that I forced the lady into moves that they didn't want to do. Stopping someone who wants to over-spin, or re-directing them when they have little floor awareness uses muscles that don't normally get used.


If you're doing the class moves that they've just learnt in freestyle, then they aren't following, they're just repeating what they've learnt.
:confused: so how does getting a 'signal' from a man and repeating the move differ from following a lead of that move?
As taught, a move has a start and end point; the beginner is expecting cues as to where to start, and where the end point is. The more experienced follower just has more points through the move that they know a variation may be inserted. If one of these is led to a beginner, then they will not know what is happening, but their arm/body should follow the lead into the variation. The more experienced follower will have half-expected this variation and can follow with more control/style, but both are following.


Like anything, following (and leading) is a skill that has to be learnt, and no-one can do it straight away (although, there are lots of degrees of 'not being able to do it').
A subtle disagreement, but I think that anyone can follow straight away - there is a path to follow; the clarity of that path may differ and you may not know where it goes, or follow it well, but at least there is something to follow. Beginners may have a match to light the way, but the path should be clear.
However I don't think that anyone can lead straight away; you could draw a path, but it has to be one going in the correct direction that the follower can see and move down.


And I still find it hard (impossible) to believe that you would prefer to dance with a completely new 'first timer', than an experienced dancer.
"Prefer"... I don't really have a preference one way or another - the plusses for one cancel the negatives for the other. I have had more 'connection' dances with experienced dancers and while they are worth seeking out, you can find them with anyone - no mater the level.


Still, on the other hand, why am I complaining. I'll just keep all the experienced dancers to myself (do I still have to share with Dave and Graham?)!!
Feel free; the beginners I dance with today will be experienced dancers tomorrow. (...then they are mine :na: )

Graham
15th-May-2003, 05:06 PM
A good follower will follow ANYTHING, and in particular will be able to follow a complete improvisation, matching the leader's style. They are concentrating on what the leader is doing and the music: they are not using their (often considerable) knowledge of set moves. Try to think of it as a continuum of hinting, suggesting, persuading, commanding, coercing. Most beginners need to be coerced (given no other option about what to do). A good follower will do what you lead even though there are other options available (unless she decides to deliberately do some other improvisation).

Franck
16th-May-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
And I still find it hard (impossible) to believe that you would prefer to dance with a completely new 'first timer', than an experienced dancer.I don't... I have been reading this thread with interest and must admit I agree with PeterL, I find dancing with Beginners hugely rewarding and immense fun! :nice:
I don't know if it is better than dancing with experienced dancers or not as I don't spend much time categorizing / rating my dances anyway, but in the last 11 years, I have opened / launched over 20 new venues, so in the process I have danced with hundreds of Beginners and enjoyed most every dance! :D
i have found that many of them were quite able to follow, even on their first night, even throw in some musical interpretation right from the start, especially if you pay attention to their style of dancing and adapt / adjust accordingly.

It all boils down to what you expect out of the night / dance... I am with Dave H, when he says he is a giver... I love seeing a Beginner relax and discover the thrill of dancing. :waycool:
When I look at the Perth night, which is still completely new (less than 4 months old), most people there are Beginners, but I can say in all honesty that I enjoy the nights as much as any other night i have been to. :cheers:

Franck.

TheTramp
16th-May-2003, 12:35 PM
I do agree that dancing with beginners is enjoyable, and is a rewarding experience. After taxi-ing/teaching for almost 4 years, I've danced with 100's of beginners too, and have enjoyed the vast majority of the dances.

On a pure enjoyment level though, it isn't the same as getting someone that you've danced with often, so have built up a good rapport and trust with, and dancing to one of your favourite tracks.

And on any night I go dancing. I usually like to experience both....

Steve

Gadget
16th-May-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Graham
A good follower will follow ANYTHING...
A good follower in a room full of people who can't dance {modern jive/Ceroc} will never be able to have any dances when just following.
A good lead could dance with any/all of the people and have a good time.

I think my point is that there has to be something worth following before a follower can actually slip into their role, no matter how good they are.
As you say, leading is all about guiding your partner allong with hints and suggestions - the more advanced the dancer, the more subtle the hints she will be able to pick up on but she will also be more aware of the other paths that could branch off from where you are going...
A nod in a different direction would mean little to the beginner, but set the advanced down a different path entirley. The only reason they know that the path exists is because they have been shown it before: I uphold the concept that "knowledge of set moves" is a large part of what makes an advanced follower.

If both partners are in the same mind-set, dancing to the same song in their heads, then it lights up some paths stronger than others and the direction that the dance takes becomes closer to telepathy than actual lead/follow; this is when dancers 'connect'. BTC.

Graham
16th-May-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
A good follower in a room full of people who can't dance {modern jive/Ceroc} will never be able to have any dances when just following.
A good lead could dance with any/all of the people and have a good time.
I should have said anything which is led. Obviously they can't follow someone who isn't leading. You're still not getting the following thing. It's not about recognising moves: I know a beginner who is an excellent follower. I think it's about picking up on the body language of the leader and seeing/feeling ALL the visual/movement cues he's giving out which betray his intentions. There are a whole host of things you are doing subconsciously when you're dancing, and all a good follower is doing is noticing these (including the signs you give out if she starts deviating from your lead!)

PeterL
16th-May-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Graham
There are a whole host of things you are doing subconsciously when you're dancing, and all a good follower is doing is noticing these (including the signs you give out if she starts deviating from your lead!)


And to be honest most of these things are not taught but refined, and improved through practice.

Leading and following is a natural thing to do, that is how dance came aout I imagine, If you are a strong lead (and by that I don't mean forceful) then as long as you can put a begginer at ease there are very few moves that you cannot get her to follow. Just open and close the right doors. And when it does go wrong which it does, don't let her know think on your feet and do something else.
:waycool:

Graham
16th-May-2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
And to be honest most of these things are not taught but refined, and improved through practice.

Leading and following is a natural thing to do, that is how dance came aout I imagine, If you are a strong lead (and by that I don't mean forceful) then as long as you can put a begginer at ease there are very few moves that you cannot get her to follow. Just open and close the right doors. And when it does go wrong which it does, don't let her know think on your feet and do something else.
:waycool: I agree. :waycool:

Gadget
16th-May-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Graham
You're still not getting the following thing. It's not about recognising moves: I know a beginner who is an excellent follower. ~snip~ There are a whole host of things you are doing subconsciously when you're dancing, and all a good follower is doing is noticing these
But the beginner is following you blind - believing that you will lead her in the correct direction; it's more a trust thing I think - How many women actually trust a man to do something right?! {:what:}

I danced with a beginner last week that followed with the lightest of touches and moved with lovley fuid movements, however there was very little style or interpretation on the dance; only what she could pick up from me. {As I said: "very little" :sick:} But she was definetly a beginner - reacting to the lead instead of with the lead.

Peter L: I don't think I do anything but make it up as I go allong and cover up the {multitude of} mistakes; the beginners are less likley to notice and the more experianced dancers think that it's a new move (...or it turns out that it actually is one and I didn't know it! :sorry)

Lou
16th-May-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
A subtle disagreement, but I think that anyone can follow straight away I disagree. Strongly. I don't think that following is a natural skill - at least it wasn't for me, and isn't with quite a few ladies I know.

Before I discovered the wisdom on this forum :wink: I just assumed following meant identifying the signals or starts of moves, recognising them, and then performing the steps that I had been taught (an example - when being led into a Yo-Yo, I'd realise it was a Yo-Yo (my right hand was across the man's chest, hand held, etc...), so I knew to dance a Yo-Yo). Nowadays, I wouldn't consider that good following. It's being aware of every nuance, in every step, or every dance, and understanding what the leader wants you to do. (Whilst also listening & interpreting the music yourself!).

Please don't underestimate the skill involved in following - it's at least equal to that of leading.

Rachel
16th-May-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Lou
Before I discovered the wisdom on this forum :wink: I just assumed following meant identifying the signals or starts of moves, recognising them, and then performing the steps that I had been taught (an example - when being led into a Yo-Yo, I'd realise it was a Yo-Yo (my right hand was across the man's chest, hand held, etc...), so I knew to dance a Yo-Yo). Exactly! This is what I have recently - very belatedly - realised and am now trying to rectify. Though it still takes a lot of concentration to stop myself switching onto autopilot.
R.

PeterL
16th-May-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Lou

Please don't underestimate the skill involved in following - it's at least equal to that of leading.

believe me I would never do that. I have tried following and quite simply can't.

:sorry

SwingSwingSwing
16th-May-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I uphold the concept that "knowledge of set moves" is a large part of what makes an advanced follower.


I have to disagree with this Gadget. In my opinion, you can be an advanced follow and have a very limited knowledge of moves. A couple of examples, in the last couple of years I danced with a some foreign follows (one American, who did Lindy Hop and a Eastern European who did Boogie Woogie). I was able to dance Ceroc with them (of which they knew nothing) and lead them through a whole variety of moves (except ones with signals) without any bother. They knew how to follow and they did it very well.

A similar thing happened to me in at Ceroc in Glasgow only a few months ago dancing with a German girl who had done Ballroom Jive. I don't think she had been going to Ceroc for long but she was an absolute dream to lead.

Knowing moves is a very small part of that huge set of skills that make up following.

SwingSwingSwing

TheTramp
16th-May-2003, 02:58 PM
Gadget posted;
I uphold the concept that "knowledge of set moves" is a large part of what makes an advanced follower.I missed this before.

Can't agree more with you SSS. Knowledge of moves does not make a good follower at all. In fact, more often than not, quite the opposite. IE, I'm leading something, follower thinks 'Ah, he's doing this move', so starts 'following' that move, I'm doing something else. It all falls apart.

As Lou said, following is a skill - and I maintain what I said earlier. Beginner ladies have very little ability at this skill - in the same way that any beginner at anything has no skill. And yes, some do pick it up much quicker than others.

Doing known moves, is not following. You can teach monkeys to do moves. Following is a hell of a lot more than that.

I'm teaching an advanced workshop this month, and I've already told the people coming not to expect lots of new (and very difficult) moves. For me, an advanced dancer is one who does the intermediate moves well, and either leads or follows well. Dancing is about the music, and the movement. Not the moves.

I'll shut up now.....

Steve

Aleks
16th-May-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
Though it still takes a lot of concentration to stop myself switching onto autopilot.
R.

That's exactly what I aim TO do; be on autopilot. That way I can respond to the leader. If I start concentrating my left brain kicks in and I begin to anticipate - bad move!

Rachel
16th-May-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
That's exactly what I aim TO do; be on autopilot. That way I can respond to the leader. If I start concentrating my left brain kicks in and I begin to anticipate - bad move! So you have to think about NOT concentrating? Wow, that must be even harder!

Gadget
16th-May-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Knowledge of moves does not make a good follower at all. In fact, more often than not, quite the opposite. IE, I'm leading something, follower thinks 'Ah, he's doing this move', so starts 'following' that move, I'm doing something else. It all falls apart.
but that's not following - that's doing as lou said - just recognising the start of a lead and going down the path yourself, not being led down it.
Awareness of the various paths is what I'm getting at; not just a blind running down one route, then seeing what the next move is going to be, then running down that one. It's a partner dance where the man leads the lady.

I have the vision of the dance being a walk through some edwardian park with paths going everywhere:
- The more experianced couple saunter, arm in arm, from one junction to another with the whole park at their command; the man leads the lady with his presence and gentle walking. The lady walks along side, aware of all the other paths but matching steps with the man.
- The experianced lead and beginner are like a man and daughter; he is walking allong the paths, telling her which route to take while she runs from one junction to another - if she goes down a path not intended, then he catches up at the next junction.
- The experianced follower and beginner lead are like a lady and son; he runs from one junction to the next in the small area of the park that he knows, expecting the lady to catch up and follow - she can take a slightly different route to end up at the same junction, but this confuses him, or go down another path altogether and loose him untill he catches her at a junction he recognises.


Lou: I don't envy the follower in the slightest and I don't think that it takes less skill than the lead; just that they are both different skills and {IMHO} learned at different rates.


SSS: The followers you sited were dancers already, so they would have been aware that there were paths, although where they led would still be a mystery because it wasn't their dance.


{I actually think my opinion has changed in the course of this thread :sorry; while I still believe that a repertoir is usefull, I think that 'trust' and focus on the lead (person, not signal) are probably what makes a good follower.}

Aleks
16th-May-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
So you have to think about NOT concentrating? Wow, that must be even harder!

I would decribe it more as NOT thinking but instead moving to (my interpretation of) the music, hopefully responding to the leader!

TheTramp
16th-May-2003, 04:12 PM
Hmmm. Sometimes, I have to say, that dances with people I don't know improve after the following conversation takes place during the dance:

Me: Smile
Her: I can't, I'm concentrating
Me: Concentrate on smiling instead
Her: *smiles*

Sometimes, when I'm dancing as a follow, I find that I dance best when I don't think about what I'm doing.....

Steve

SwingSwingSwing
16th-May-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Awareness of the various paths is what I'm getting at; not just a blind running down one route, then seeing what the next move is going to be, then running down that one. It's a partner dance where the man leads the lady.

...snip...

SSS: The followers you sited were dancers already, so they would have been aware that there were paths, although where they led would still be a mystery because it wasn't their dance.



Gadget, you think waaaay to much about this :) (but so do I )

Your path analogy is interesting. I'll try and use it in this post. I may have a different interpretation of it though.

I'm not sure that even the awareness of the various paths is important to be a good follower (or good leader for that matter) (You may have been coming that conclusion yourself by the end of our post but I wanted to extend the analogy). The followers I was dancing with may have been aware of other paths but they were irrelevant, Being good followers, they were following my path.

If we're talking about strictly following, then following is all about following the leads of the leader. In this case, the follower doesn't have to know about any of the other paths in the garden, just the one that the leader is indicating should be followed.

Being good at following is part of being a good dancer (follower). A good dancer improvising within a move will be able to make little detours on the path but will get to the end of the path when the leader expects.

A good dancer may take the opportunity to shine and extend a move, which means he/she will take a bit more time going down a detour but will return to the path a short while after the leader expects.

Now not all the paths in the garden are visible. Both leader and followers may discover new paths. They may have been aware of these paths before (ie previously been taught about them or see other people on them) but they might be discovering them for the first time.

And the best dancers will be able to create brand new paths.


SwingSwingSwing

PS. If that's just a lot of tosh, just tell me!

Gadget
16th-May-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by SwingSwingSwing
Gadget, you think waaaay to much about this :) (but so do I )
~snip~ PS. If that's just a lot of tosh, just tell me!
as much tosh as mine was :sorry :D :D
{...but I do like the anology...}

PeterL
16th-May-2003, 05:25 PM
All I said was I like dancing with beginners. ;)

and look what happened.:cheers:

Gadget
16th-May-2003, 05:40 PM
I think also that there is slightly more to the lead than simply showing the path that the lady follows; if he sends her down a little side path to do her own thing, he also has to watch her and alter his speed of progress (or path) so that they can meet up again seamlessly at the next junction.

Peter L: thanks for making this an interesting thread (Much better than the one I started :wink::D)

{I wonder what merry paths I will be led around at the Aberdeen party on Sat?... Not that I'm sugesting that the lady's lead... I think I'll just shut up before I get snubbed at the party! :sick::wink: }

Graham
16th-May-2003, 06:20 PM
Liked your post, SSS.

Gadget: a good follower pays attention to where the leader is going, and only pays attention to the paths when the leader points to one (i.e. a signal).

Tiggerbabe
16th-May-2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Gadget

{I wonder what merry paths I will be led around at the Aberdeen party on Sat?... Not that I'm sugesting that the lady's lead... I think I'll just shut up before I get snubbed at the party! :sick::wink: }

I will happily lead you if you will follow Gadget!

Gadget
16th-May-2003, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Sheena
I will happily lead you if you will follow Gadget!
I'll give it a go...:what: but remember that I'm only a beginner at this 'following' thing - you'll have to be very clear on which paths I should take :grin:

{...and I don't mean "beginner" as in The Tramp's title}

Tiggerbabe
17th-May-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
I'll give it a go...:what: but remember that I'm only a beginner at this 'following' thing - you'll have to be very clear on which paths I should take :grin:



OK - it's a date! :D I promise to be very gentle with you :wink: and only beginner's moves (this time!)

Bill
17th-May-2003, 05:49 PM
Having just scanned a few of the contributions on thsi thread I'd only add the following :

I enjoy dancing with beginners but not surprisingly less experienced women follow less well because they are nervous, new to ceroc and have to really concentrate on the moves they have been taught.

A good follower , in my experience, is someone who has experience and confidence in their own dancing and in their partners so that they can relax and simply respond to the lead. as a few women have said - they can almost stop thinking - assuming the lead is good enough.

Dancing with someone as good as Lily is a dream as she responds to even small changes in the lead but that's because she is a 'real' dancer and been dancing since she was about 6. There are dozens of women, and a number of men who follow really well and can make the leader look wonderful ( too many to name :sorry :D ).

A good night for me is having fun with the women I dance with regularly and also having a few dances with 'new' women and helping them realise that they can dance. But I have to admit that there are always some women I'd look for to make the night really great - and especially when certain songs start playing.

Better go get my glad rags ready for tonight......and see some of you browsers tonight :wink: :grin:

John S
18th-May-2003, 07:08 PM
This has been a really interesting thread, because a lot of it has been on the theory of "following", which for me is really the differentiating skill that some women have that makes the whole dance come together in a way that just doesn't happen on every occasion.

And it is definitely not about knowing lots of moves or just recognising the specific learnable signals that the leader gives. Women are generally acknowledged to be far better than men at picking up and empathising with non-verbal signals and body language, and that's what this is all about.

When it works (and I can only guess at how) there seems to be an intuitive understanding by the woman of where the dance is going, of how far she can go to add her own interpretations without losing the man's lead, and it results in an almost subliminal melding into one entity of the two minds (and bodies) for the period of the dance.

When we watch (or even better are part of) a couple on the dance floor where everything fits together and flows there is an almost palpable sense of being caught up in something wonderful. The style of the dance comes from the interaction of the man and the woman, their unspoken thoughts (yes, maybe sometimes even about each other!) and their joint interpretation of the music.

I now propose that this post be entered into Pseuds Corner for OTT pretentiousness.
:sorry

Wendy
18th-May-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by John S
When it works...there seems to be an intuitive understanding by the woman of where the dance is going, of how far she can go to add her own interpretations without losing the man's lead, and it results in an almost subliminal melding into one entity of the two minds (and bodies) for the period of the dance.

When we watch (or even better are part of) a couple on the dance floor where everything fits together and flows there is an almost palpable sense of being caught up in something wonderful. The style of the dance comes from the interaction of the man and the woman, their unspoken thoughts (yes, maybe sometimes even about each other!) and their joint interpretation of the music.I love that, John. I think it is beautiful, poetic and perfectly true... sigh....

Wxxx

John S
18th-May-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Wendy
I love that, John. I think it is beautiful, poetic and perfectly true... sigh....

Wxxx

See the crap we guys have to write to make a woman react like that - it's bloody hard work, you know!
:wink:

But thanks, Wendy - you're way up there in all the things I wrote about!
:kiss:

Wendy
18th-May-2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by John S
See the crap we guys have to write to make a woman react like that - it's bloody hard work, you know!.....It certainly isn't crap and I can't beleive it was hard work either... a feeling in the heart expressed in words.. sigh....

Wxxx

PS Might just start a new thread "Is it possible to be in love in a dancey way ....." or something.....

Gadget
18th-May-2003, 10:08 PM
I note that most of the writing about Following has been by Leads; perhaps we just think about it too much instead of going with the flow?


Origionally posted by John S
When it works (and I can only guess at how) there seems to be an intuitive understanding by the woman of where the dance is going, of how far she can go to add her own interpretations without losing the man's lead, and it results in an almost subliminal melding into one entity of the two minds (and bodies) for the period of the dance.
Very pretty text. :nice: However - don't sell yourself short: it takes two to "mind meld" - the man has to be just as able to contrive and send the signals as the lady has to recieve and interperate them.

Sheena: Thank you {I think} for the reversed rolls dance (don't ask...:sorry I'll stick to leading.) And thank you {I 'm a lot more sure of this one} for the other dances.

While I'm remembering to thank people: A great night (as usual) and thank you to all the ladies that made it so by submitting themselves to my leading. :waycool: :waycool:

LilyB
19th-May-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Bill
Dancing with someone as good as Lily is a dream as she responds to even small changes in the lead but that's because she is a 'real' dancer and been dancing since she was about 6..............and can make the leader look wonderful......

Gee whiz, Bill. Don't know what to say! :sorry Such praise from the man for whom a thousand women would gladly forego chocolate... :yum: :devil: :wink:

Believe it or not, I do not consider myself a natural dancer. As you noted, I have been dancing since the age of 6 and everything I do has been learnt either from lessons or from observing other dancers. That's many, many years of learning & practising, believe me!!!:sick:

However, all that would be worth while if it achieves the ultimate aim - to make my partner look wonderful! :wink: :D

LilyB

Sheepman
19th-May-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
if it achieves the ultimate aim - to make my partner look wonderful!
Ultimate aim? But Lily you ALWAYS manage this, simply by taking most of the attention away from your partner! I don't think I consciously have the aim of making my partner, or myself, look good (except in competition if I get it right). More a matter of what feels good for us, and what works with the music. Hopefully this translates into enjoyment of the dance, which is essential for looking good. There are always things which work better with one partner than another, not necessarily down to skill or experience. Of course with Lily it feels a bit too good just standing there watching her looking great, there again if Robert Cordoba can get away with it . . .
Greg

Sandy
18th-June-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I don't think anyone's saying that dancing with an experienced dancer is always better than dancing with a beginner. Just that it's possible to have way more fun with a dancer who you really connect with, who feels the music in the same way, who lets you do your thing and you almost instinctively know what each other are going to do.

I agree totally. Dancing with beginners can be good (can also be very difficult because of nerves, lack of rythm etc but everyone is a beginner at some time), but nothing to beat dancing with someone you connect with, a style you can relate to and even better if dancing to some fantastic music!

Sandy :wink:

Yogi_Bear
14th-February-2005, 12:22 AM
It is also possible to have a lot of fun and enjoy the night dancing relatively little but deliberately watching and absorbing music, moves, styles, smiles, outfits, quirks, body language etc etc..

Or does everybody start getting a buzz from the "periferals" and find that it passes??
Exactly - my approach is sometimes to dance relatively little and spend a lot of my time just watching others and seeing what they do well - or badly. If anyone spends practically the whole evening on the dance floor then I would have my doubts that they would be learning anything new that night...

Lynn
14th-February-2005, 12:34 AM
Exactly - my approach is sometimes to dance relatively little and spend a lot of my time just watching others and seeing what they do well - or badly. :yeah:
I find myself doing things with my 'spare arm' or my feet and not being aware of it - and I hope that its because I am picking up things from watching other stylish female dancers. Though I would never dance 'relatively little' but that's because I dance so infrequently!

Clive Long
14th-February-2005, 12:39 AM
Exactly - my approach is sometimes to dance relatively little and spend a lot of my time just watching others and seeing what they do well - or badly. If anyone spends practically the whole evening on the dance floor then I would have my doubts that they would be learning anything new that night...

I really am trying to watch and follow couples who I think are "flowing" - and try to analyse what they are doing - but my brain don't work that fast - and all I can do is get fleeting reminders of moves I might have done in the past - to make my dancing less repetitive.

Goodness. This is sounding rather glum!

I know as a good student of MJ I should be analysing and internalising but after one dance watching people enjoying themselves I feel I'm in the wrong place - I'm itching to get going again - unless it is 3am at Camber - and I have lost all co-ordination and my feet are burning.

CRL

Yogi_Bear
14th-February-2005, 12:46 AM
:yeah:
I find myself doing things with my 'spare arm' or my feet and not being aware of it - and I hope that its because I am picking up things from watching other stylish female dancers. Though I would never dance 'relatively little' but that's because I dance so infrequently!
Well, it does vary a good deal with me, but when not dancing I find I can gain from
(a) watching good male dancers for style and musicality
(b) watching good female dancers for the same reasons, and making a mental note to dance with them later..
(c) watching less good men, women and couples to see how they cope with different styles and speed of music, and so on.
(d) watching how couples enter and leave the dance floor,
..and so on.

Lynn
14th-February-2005, 12:57 AM
(b) watching good female dancers for the same reasons, and making a mental note to dance with them later.. In my case, good male dancers and making a mental note to...hope they ask me at some point (did happen last weekend!)

Clive Long
14th-February-2005, 01:04 AM
Deleted

bigdjiver
14th-February-2005, 01:55 AM
Totally disagree with you that you really get to lead beginners, in my experience the vast majority of beginners are extremely nervous and generally dance their 4 moves from memory and thus you are not leading at all, but merely performing 4 moves in a set pattern...

This is not a planet I recognise. ( I have never been a taxi-dancer. )
I have danced with thousands (scary?) of beginners, including hundreds that have never had a lesson. Each one is their own story, and there have been some I have not got through to on any level :-< However, I try to relax them with a joke, find their level and attitude as quickly as I can, and generally succeed in having an enjoyable dance.
If the beginner has been in a class I deliberately do not do the class moves. The lady has to learn to follow. I use double handed moves a lot, and walk-arounds, so I can chat and take her mind off of the moves. Most ladies work out pretty quickly that I know something, and just go with the flow.
These are generalisations. Each lady is different, and there are a few that seem to have to be in control, for which the Taxi-dancer and the class moves are the only option. Usually by the time I have discovered this the track is over, and I apologise and point her at a taxi-dancer.
OTOH There are some ladies that can follow from the start, but have struggled with the class, trying to learn the moves.

Rose
14th-February-2005, 02:46 AM
:o I am really happy when I can dance with everyone and anyone no matter if they are experienced or beginners. The way I feel is that I hope to learn something from more experienced dancers and feel good when beginners learn something from me. I also love when you have those special dances when you can just just feel the chemistry and the energy between you. Its also great to watch other people connecting that way. It looks as if they think they are the only ones on the dance floor and it is electric to watch.

At work at the moment doing my night shift. Must be hooked still thinking about Ceroc! :hug:

Rose
14th-February-2005, 03:29 AM
In my case, good male dancers and making a mental note to...hope they ask me at some point (did happen last weekend!)

Hi Lynn, the good male dancers are probably making a mental note about you. Be confident (or pretend to be) and ask them no matter what - its not so scary once you do it. :cheers:

MartinHarper
14th-February-2005, 10:22 AM
"knowledge of set moves" is a large part of what makes an advanced follower.

I'd say that knowledge of set moves is a large part of what makes an intermediate follower, but not part of what makes an advanced follower.

Intermediate following is a valuable skill, as it allows you to follow intermediate leads. This means you can get more dances per night. :)

Lynn
14th-February-2005, 11:17 AM
Hi Lynn, the good male dancers are probably making a mental note about you. What, like 'run away...fast' :rofl:


Be confident (or pretend to be) and ask them no matter what - its not so scary once you do it. I think its because when I started dancing, the first few dances I went to where there were mixed ability were salsa (after MJ class, when we had them last year, everyone was at the same level - complete beginner - so that was fine). So my first experience of 'better male dancers' was to notice that they only danced with good female dancers. I think if I did see them up with a less experienced dancer they tended to look bored (my salsa teacher didn't but I was too shy to ask him!).

I know the attitude is so different in MJ, so I should start asking the guys more.

Bill
14th-February-2005, 01:55 PM
In my case, good male dancers and making a mental note to...hope they ask me at some point (did happen last weekend!)


but I think the point made earlier is that as there are usually more women than men at most events the men are on the floor more often. And although there are 'good' men who only seem to ask 'good' women to dance it may be that the more experienced women get to the 'good' men first :whistle:

I know male dancers who do try and get round the newer women but can't always manage because they are asked to dance by the experieced women and the newer women are often shy and reticent about askingmen to dance.

It would be nice to watch people dance more but few men up here get the chance to observe for very long because our women aren't shy about asking :D :wink:

drathzel
14th-February-2005, 02:55 PM
it may be that the more experienced women get to the 'good' men first :whistle:


:yeah: its due to learning how to fight for a dance! you have to become thick skinned! :hug:

Piglet
14th-February-2005, 03:19 PM
I just have great fun dancing and usually with anyone - but once you've had a great dance with someone, its simply natural to want to recreate that magic (though it doesn't always happen). I don't mind dancing with the new guys either - its nice to return the compliment that so many paid me when I was (and still am) learning to dance.

Rose
14th-February-2005, 03:23 PM
What, like 'run away...fast' :rofl:

If a man were to do that here you can be sure a dozen other women would notice but a sense of humour definitely helps a lot :clap:

I know the attitude is so different in MJ, so I should start asking the guys more.

in a word YES....and keep us girls posted please...this could be interesting :yeah:

Frankie_4711
25th-June-2006, 06:02 PM
Going back to the original question, the amount of fun I have is in the amount of dancing I do - doesn't matter who with, what music it's to, even how good the dance is - just from dancing in general. I will therefore dance every dance every time I go, to anything, with anyone and still want more when it's over!

drathzel
25th-June-2006, 11:47 PM
when i answered this poll i only danced to half the songs, but not that i run my own classes i make it so that i dance at least 3/4s of the songs. But i still have fun doing it!

Has anyone else changed their minds?