Simon Boreland - visionary or cynical manipulator?

[Get a grip]

Having attended SB's so called 'anniversary party' (complete with pre-printed business cards) there is no doubt in my mind which he is and frankly anyone attending with the notion that this was going to be anything other than some kind of 'business' venture needed their head testing.

Crap floor, crap music (I sincerely hope that Toby and Bunny WERE directed in what to play otherwise they have lost it) and only enough room to swing a fat Australian around by his tongue.

Of course the actual concept was not so bad and competition is IMO great for the dance world. A main London club venue that might crossover to encourage younger people to start partner dancing is an admirable vision - but why did he have to go about it in such an underhand way?

I've known SB for 2 years now and there was never any doubt in my mind where he was going to end up - his conversation often betrayed it. On arrival here he immersed himself in the dance scene and was at some points teaching 7 nights a week. The reason? Obvious... he wanted to get his name around, get visible and to start to build a data base of potential customers so that when he inevitably left the Ceroc network he could set up in immediate competition.

If Friday was a sign of things to come then we know what to expect, and certainly based on many of your comments you agree - he was dishonest, underhand and manipulative and any respect that he may have gathered for his teaching has gone out the window. IMO he does not deserve your support because by doing so you condone his actions - but then at £10 a head on Monday night in Central London we all know where this is going.

And as for the largest glitter ball in the World - well it was in evidence.... Simon Boreland in his waistcoat...

[Minnie M]

BTW There is no E in Borland :whistle:

[Get a grip]

BTW There is no E in Borland :whistle:

There is in my mind - because he does go on, and on, and on....

[Minnie M]

There is in my mind - because he does go on, and on, and on....
Well at least you have something in common :whistle:

[Gus]

Of course the actual concept was not so bad and competition is IMO great for the dance world. A main London club venue that might crossover to encourage younger people to start partner dancing is an admirable vision - but why did he have to go about it in such an underhand way?.If thats what it was all about ... then he's only followed the way that instructor after instructor has followed in setting up thier own venture. I'm no fan of SB but I do recognise that he has managed to promote himself as a clear brand and from that should be able to launch the new venture.

I'm not sure what the relationship is, if any, with Ceroc. If its an associated venture, then good marketing. If he's striking out alone that it oculd be seen taht he's really suckered Ceroc(tm) and they really should have seen it coming. Similar things have happened on a smaller scale up North for the last three yaers os so. Will be vaugely interested to see if/how the new venture succeeds and if/how Ceroc will seek to counter the competition (as they rarely let competition thrive ... RIP Hipsters :( )

[Andreas]

This thread should be moved. It has nothing to do in this category. And to be quite blunt, everybody who considered this party a free give-away without any agenda is naive, nothing more, nothing less. I could, of course, have been that SB had won lottery ... :whistle:

[bigdjiver]

... (as they rarely let competition thrive ... RIP Hipsters :( )So, what did Ceroc do to un-thrive Hipsters?

[Gordon J Pownall]

DJ Bunnie here, hope I am not creating a social fow par by logging in as my luverly bunnie boy gordon. Who by the way is off delivering a yacht in sunny Greece. At least I think the sun is till shining..........

You are right about Friday's music - we were given a musical remit for the night.

Don't know if anyone was there at the beginning of Ceroc, (me after reading a few archive documents from James Cronin, radio interviews and newspaper articles - because of course I was far too young to be there at the beginning, wasn't that what he wanted. A nightclub feel with partner dancing???

Me personaly, I like variety in my music. I like a real mixture of sounds, a bit of this, a bit of that, something for everyone - as like the world we live in, we all have different flavours to bring to the dance floor. The Dj's responsibility is to enable this to happen.

Happy dancing everyone, wherever that may be xx

[David Bailey]

Can't he be both?


Having attended SB's so called 'anniversary party' (complete with pre-printed business cards)
Oi! That was my sarky point, mister plagiarist you.


Of course the actual concept was not so bad and competition is IMO great for the dance world. A main London club venue that might crossover to encourage younger people to start partner dancing is an admirable vision
May I refer you to the "MJ for the club market (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9879)" thread?


If Friday was a sign of things to come then we know what to expect, and certainly based on many of your comments you agree - he was dishonest, underhand and manipulative and any respect that he may have gathered for his teaching has gone out the window. IMO he does not deserve your support because by doing so you condone his actions - but then at £10 a head on Monday night in Central London we all know where this is going.
Oh come on. Yes, it was, shall we say, a little roundabout a way of launching a new venture. But it's not worth getting worked up about, is it? And that's me saying it.

If it works, it'll pull in a whole new stream of dancers. If it doesn't, we the punters won't lose any money. So where's the downside?

Anyone launching a new MJ venue should automatically be applauded by punters. Yes, of course it's done to make money - so what?

[Andy McGregor]

So, what did Ceroc do to un-thrive Hipsters?Nothing.

Hipsters stopped because numbers dropped. And, I think, numbers dropped because they stopped listening to their customers. IMHO the Wednesdays failed because, towards the end, over half the people doing the lesson were fixed couples. My wife, Sue, wouldn't go back because she was waiting too much during the lesson, and the good guys had been grabbed to be fixed couples so the ones left in the lesson were the guys nobody wanted to be fixed couples with. And, IMHO, the Tuesdays failed because they tried to mix Lindy Hop and MJ for the freestyle.

On the subject of Simon Borland. He threw a party. It was still a party even if there are going to be classes in the same venue. He didn't trick anybody, he invited people to a party and there was a party. The fact is that most of the people who've commented didn't like the party - but it was still a party. What better place to promote your new venture than the party you're throwing in the same venue.

Please note, I don't know Simon Borland and have no opinion of him. I met him for the first time at Britrock and he was very reserved.

[David Bailey]

So, what did Ceroc do to un-thrive Hipsters?
Well, they cynically and ruthlessly set up a competitive class on the same night.

Teaching... err... ballroom dancing.

On.. err... the other side of London (about 10 miles away).

Hmmm.

OK, anyone else see the flaw in the logic here? :whistle:



Hipsters failed because people didn't go, OK? Let's not look for too many conspiracy theories, hmmm?

EDIT: Hell, Andy beat me to it. OK, just assume :yeah: to what he said...

[Lory]

I'm not sure what the relationship is, if any, with Ceroc.

I'd like to know this, (cos i'm nosey:innocent: )

I did notice a few faces there, that are quite close to Ceroc HQ.

I wonder if they invited as a gesture of good will ;) or as an 'up yours', look what i'm doing and right on your patch? :devil:

Did they come along in total ignorance, actually believing it was to celebrate one of 'their' teachers, teaching 250classes for them?

Or, were they there to condone the new venture?

Or, did they use the opportunity to simply to observe, with their own eyes what the competition will be and maybe even gain ideas?

[Spin dryer]

On the subject of Simon Borland. He threw a party. It was still a party even if there are going to be classes in the same venue. He didn't trick anybody, he invited people to a party and there was a party. The fact is that most of the people who've commented didn't like the party - but it was still a party. What better place to promote your new venture

Rubbish. The invitees were led to believe that they were attending a private party, albeit on a grand scale, to celebrate Borland's 250th dance lesson. Pathetically flimsy reason for a party though this would have been, it generated a great deal of enthusiasm, a heightened sense of expectation and a smattering of goodwill towards Borland. Goodwill is everything in business, and Borland threw it all away when he disclosed in the middle of his rambling soliloquy that the real motivation for the event was to launch "Jive Nation". As I mentioned in the main thread on this event, the sense of bewilderment was palpable when eveyone in the room realised they were only there so that they could be added to a mailing list.

Every single person I spoke to at the event and afterwards thought it was diabolically bad, and their negative feelings were compounded by the feeling that they had not been told what its primary purpose was. The venture is doomed to failure.

[Gus]

As I mentioned in the main thread on this event, the sense of bewilderment was palpable when eveyone in the room realised they were only there so that they could be added to a mailing list.Urrrrr ... SURELY NOT! That would be illegal :wink:

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'd like to know this, (cos i'm nosey:innocent: )

I did notice a few faces there, that are quite close to Ceroc HQ.You mean Bradders?
I wonder if they invited as a gesture of good will ;) or as an 'up yours', look what i'm doing and right on your patch? :devil: Probably the former, I should think.
Did they come along in total ignorance, actually believing it was to celebrate one of 'their' teachers, teaching 250classes for them?I doubt it. Last Thursday's email didn't leave much room for doubt. And it's been a while since Simon last taught for Ceroc.
Or, were they there to condone the new venture?No
Or, did they use the opportunity to simply to observe, with their own eyes what the competition will be and maybe even gain ideas?I'm amazed how conspiratorial you can make it all sound.

[stewart38]

Did people have a good time ? :sick:

[WittyBird]

There were a lot of people there. Also A lot of 'known' faces. To me it was more of a social than dance.
Does it matter if they take it to a business venture? I for one won't bother going purely because its a Monday evening in town and I can't be arsed.

I didn't bother with the class at the beginning of the evening- I hardly bothered dancing all evening either. I was happy to chat and speak to people I don't often get the opportunity to.

It was an entertaining evening when nothing else was on. I had a good one.

[Andy McGregor]

everyone in the room realised they were only there so that they could be added to a mailing list.How would they all feel if someone told them that the only reason they're at a Ceroc class is to make money for Ceroc?:whistle:

[stewart38]

Please note, I don't know Simon Borland and have no opinion of him. I met him for the first time at Britrock and he was very reserved.


I think Simon has improved dramatically over the years in teaching style and presentation. As a compare he would be good at any business function

[Heather]

How would they all feel if someone told them that the only reason they're at a Ceroc class is to make money for Ceroc?:whistle:

:rofl: :rofl: You are so sharp, Mr McGregor, you might cut yourself!!:wink: :rofl: :rofl:

:hug:
Heather

[David Bailey]

Goodwill is everything in business, and Borland threw it all away when he disclosed in the middle of his rambling soliloquy that the real motivation for the event was to launch "Jive Nation".
Yeah - in hindsight, I think that was a Dumb Move. The "250th" thing was dumber than dumb, even I thought it was strange and I'm gullible as heck...

On the other hand, being invited to a free party, in the hippodrome, with classes and demonstrations - listening to someone talk for a few minutes would seem a low price to pay. I mean, blimey, it's not as if he stole your firstborn or something.


The venture is doomed to failure.
I don't agree - it could succeed.

I'd agree that "Blatantly deceiving some of your customer base" is not a good way to start, of course. But he's certainly got a lot of publicity for his venue, so in that sense it's worked.

[Get a grip]

If thats what it was all about ... then he's only followed the way that instructor after instructor has followed in setting up thier own venture.

True, but I don't think most previous Ceroc teachers set out with the intention of training under Ceroc and then immediately leaving to do their own thing. The difference here is that I believe that SB's intention from day 1 was to do that. Free country and all that but it's not ethical and does nothing to build the belief in him as someone you could respect and trust. Still he does come from the land of convicts and criminals...


(as they rarely let competition thrive ... RIP Hipsters :( )

Hipsters failed for one very simple reason - it wasn't a venue that catered for beginners. Any venue that just relies on pulling established dancers from other venues will eventually fail (if run on a weekly basis) as people get bored. With no beginners there, who had been nurtured by an established teacher relationship, there was no loyalty to sustain the venue through tougher times. Say what you will about Ceroc, but they have got it right. New venues are constantly promoted and busked to get virgin members through the door for exactly that reason.


Can't he be both?


He's not bright enough to be both...



Oi! That was my sarky point, mister plagiarist you.

Yes it was, and it was such a good point I thought it was worth repeating..:wink:



And it's been a while since Simon last taught for Ceroc.

What, like 3 weeks ago at Bliss?

[David Bailey]

True, but I don't think most previous Ceroc teachers set out with the intention of training under Ceroc and then immediately leaving to do their own thing.
He'd been teaching for a while in Oz before coming to the UK, though, hadn't he? Possibly this was his game plan since being in the UK, but, really, who cares? We should applaud and encourage energy, entrepeneurship and initiative, shouldn't we?

Simon's very very good at the schmoozing side of business - as anyone who's seen him working the floor knows. So I think he's got a fighting chance.

As for the age thing someone mentioned - well, that hasn't stopped Stringfellow (unfortunately :sick: )


What, like 3 weeks ago at Bliss?
Hmmm, didn't know that. I dunno what the Ceroc Teacher T&Cs are, but there's a good chance he's broken them - I doubt there's anything in the standard teacher contract that says "Yeah, go on, start your own competitive business, we don't mind" :) .

But the trick is to prove that this is causing damage to Ceroc. And considering he's had a long break from regular-class-teaching, (6 months?), that he's clearly not using the Ceroc member database, and that there are no close-by events on Mondays (or any day) in Central London doing Ceroc, it becomes harder to prove damage.

[Cruella]

As I mentioned in the main thread on this event, the sense of bewilderment was palpable when eveyone in the room realised they were only there so that they could be added to a mailing list.
I don't honestly think that many people were bewildered! The rumours of this announcement had been winging it's way around for a few weeks before the actual event. As to the mailing list, i was never emailed directly, i had a PM on here, therefore i can't see how they would be able to add me to a mailing list. Unless of course they are relying on advertising on here! :rolleyes:


Every single person I spoke to at the event and afterwards thought it was diabolically bad, and their negative feelings were compounded by the feeling that they had not been told what its primary purpose was. The venture is doomed to failure.
You obviously didn't speak to many then, or they were a select group. It was a free evening out at the Hippodrome. I enjoyed the experience and am grateful for the opportunity to see that the famous 'London Hippodrome' was as rough and seedy as any other nightclub. :D
I personally think it'll be a struggle for it to work but if it does, all well and good. I'm sure that Ceroc will benefit from younger people getting involved with partner dancing, afterall they have been trying to encourage younger members in for a while now.

[El Salsero Gringo]

True, but I don't think most previous Ceroc teachers set out with the intention of training under Ceroc and then immediately leaving to do their own thing. The difference here is that I believe that SB's intention from day 1 was to do that.Simon is an Australian-trained teacher who began teaching for Ceroc in the UK at ISH the week after he arrived in London - I was at his first class there, by coincidence. He built the venue from 30 people that night to somewhere around 150-200 within a few months and kept it at that level throughout his time there. I don't think you can accuse him of "using" Ceroc any more than you can accuse Ceroc of "using" him. The thought that he intended to benefit from Ceroc training while here is hilarious.
What, like 3 weeks ago at Bliss?Fair point. It's a while since he gave up his regular London class though.

[El Salsero Gringo]

You obviously didn't speak to many then, or they were a select group. Just to be clear, how many people did you speak to (from a non-select group) to be able to claim that most were entirely happy with the situation? My experience of people's feelings about the way they'd been set up matches that of Spin-Dryer, and I'll bet my "not very many, select group" is entirely different to his.

[Get a grip]

I personally think it'll be a struggle for it to work but if it does, all well and good. I'm sure that Ceroc will benefit from younger people getting involved with partner dancing, afterall they have been trying to encourage younger members in for a while now.

Like everyone else I think it's admirable to encourage younger dancers into the partner dance format - and the idea of trying to appeal to the club dancer makes sense. But it just can't work.

To appeal to a younger, hipper audience it would make sense to use younger, hipper venues. Club venues by definition do not have large dance floors. The Hippodrome is a prime example (although I wouldn't have said that it was a 'hip' venue). Looking at the floor and the crowd I reckon that you would get a max of 40-50 couples on there - so with some stragglers around the edge let's say 150 max. Your guess is as good as mine as to the cost of hire but most London venues charge around £150-£250 per hour - so you do the Math's..

Then there's the music - if you want to attract a younger crowd then you have to play appropriate music. In fact, just the kind of music the majority of us hate dancing to (2 chords and a thumping beat...) So, experienced dancers won't attend for long and I doubt that you could get 100-150 regular newbie's in.

I hope Simon Oz Boreland (SOB) has got deep pockets...

[David Bailey]

Just to be clear, how many people did you speak to (from a non-select group) to be able to claim that most were entirely happy with the situation? My experience of people's feelings about the way they'd been set up matches that of Spin-Dryer, and I'll bet my "not very many, select group" is entirely different to his.
Woooh, poll:

Do you feel cynically exploited and used?
Do you enoy being cynically exploited and used and want more?
Did you not care?
How old is Simon Borland?


:)

[Cruella]

Just to be clear, how many people did you speak to (from a non-select group) to be able to claim that most were entirely happy with the situation? My experience of people's feelings about the way they'd been set up matches that of Spin-Dryer, and I'll bet my "not very many, select group" is entirely different to his.

Erm, where exactly did i claim that most people were entirely happy with the situation?
I am picking up on the 'every single person i spoke to at the event and afterwards' comment.
You are lying if you are saying that your experience matches his, as you spoke to myself about it on the night.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Erm, where exactly did i claim that most people were entirely happy with the situation?
I am picking up on the 'every single person i spoke to at the event and afterwards' comment.
You are lying if you are saying that your experience matches his, as you spoke to myself about it on the night.OK, a certain amount of poetic exaggeration is going on here. Not everybody I spoke to said it was "diabolically bad". The majority of people I spoke to (no I didn't keep count) were somewhat negative about being taken for a ride on the reason for the party.

I wasn't sure under what banner I should be judging the night - as a launch night for a new business, or a private party? My conclusions would be very different!

[Cruella]

OK, a certain amount of poetic exaggeration is going on here. Not everybody I spoke to said it was "diabolically bad". The majority of people I spoke to (no I didn't keep count) were somewhat negative about being taken for a ride on the reason for the party.

I wasn't sure under what banner I should be judging the night - as a launch night for a new business, or a private party? My conclusions would be very different!

Apology excepted. :rofl:

[David Bailey]

Like everyone else I think it's admirable to encourage younger dancers into the partner dance format - and the idea of trying to appeal to the club dancer makes sense. But it just can't work.
Yet again, I say - it works in salsa clubs, so it's clearly not inherently impossible to get a nightclub-based partner dance business going.


To appeal to a younger, hipper audience it would make sense to use younger, hipper venues. Club venues by definition do not have large dance floors.
Then again, if a venue is open longer, more people might spend time socialising than dancing.


The Hippodrome is a prime example (although I wouldn't have said that it was a 'hip' venue). Looking at the floor and the crowd I reckon that you would get a max of 40-50 couples on there - so with some stragglers around the edge let's say 150 max. Your guess is as good as mine as to the cost of hire but most London venues charge around £150-£250 per hour - so you do the Math's..
Errr.... OK then.

I imagine that the Hippodrome ain't cheap, even on Monday evenings, so yes, let's assume it's about a grand to hire it for the evening. Then assume that running costs etc. add another £500 on to that.

So at £10 entry, you need 150 people there, just to break even. Which is a lot, but SB's achieved that at ISH, and that's about normal for Finchley on Mondays - so it's not impossible.

Assume that 50% are dancing at any one time (I know, low, but it's a different atmosphere), then you can probably get 300 people there max, which would presumably be profitable.


Then there's the music - if you want to attract a younger crowd then you have to play appropriate music. In fact, just the kind of music the majority of us hate dancing to (2 chords and a thumping beat...) So, experienced dancers won't attend for long and I doubt that you could get 100-150 regular newbie's in.
"Newbies" is a relative term. There's an awful lot of people who like thump-thump music - much more than those of us picky devils who like the other stuff in fact. And who's to say that it's impossible to dance well to that music anyway? It may be more of a challenge initially, but so is Tango / Blues.


The majority of people I spoke to (no I didn't keep count)
I'm disappointed in you.
I was expecting an Excel-based survey pie-chart any time now :tears:

[Get a grip]

Simon is an Australian-trained teacher who began teaching for Ceroc in the UK at ISH the week after he arrived in London - I was at his first class there, by coincidence. He built the venue from 30 people that night to somewhere around 150-200 within a few months and kept it at that level throughout his time there. I don't think you can accuse him of "using" Ceroc any more than you can accuse Ceroc of "using" him. The thought that he intended to benefit from Ceroc training while here is hilarious. Fair point. It's a while since he gave up his regular London class though.

I think we might be at crossed porpoises here. I know Simon wasn't trained as a teacher here in the UK so you're right, he wasn't going to benefit from that side of the business. In fact all he did was moan about the standard of teaching here suggesting that we should be more like the Australians in our way of teaching (yawn....) GUYS DOUBLE SPIN, MAKING SURE YOU SMACK YOUR PARTNER IN THE EYE WITH YOUR ELBOW AND ALSO MAKING SURE THAT YOU GO WILDLY OFF BALANCE AND LOOK LIKE A DANCING DAG!

No, he was here to benefit from access to the network and to the venues, organizers, teachers and punters - job done.

As for building ISH up, that he did, but people soon get bored with a one trick pony (or donkey....) We must be careful not to confuse charisma with someone who just shouts a lot.

[mikeyr]

I don't honestly think that many people were bewildered! The rumours of this announcement had been winging it's way around for a few weeks before the actual event. As to the mailing list, i was never emailed directly, i had a PM on here, therefore i can't see how they would be able to add me to a mailing list.

I agree with Cruella. Also at no stage of the evening was I pressed for an Email address. Which is very different to when one is visiting the different Ceroc franchises. Also I have to say, I was left in very little doubt that this was something other than a promotional of some sort.


You obviously didn't speak to many then, or they were a select group. It was a free evening out at the Hippodrome. I enjoyed the experience and am grateful for the opportunity to see that the famous 'London Hippodrome' was as rough and seedy as any other nightclub

I thought that, as a promotional event. It was a good one, although more free water would have made it far more enjoyable. While the music was not what I would pay to dance to. It was a party and a pretty good one at that.

I also think it'll be a struggle for it to work if the format from the party is the format they'll use on Mondays. I also think it will struggle to attract many existing dancers.

However, I think if anyone can make it work it will be Simon and his crew, I have a great deal of respect for Simon as a MJ teacher and there are very few people as positive as him in attitude.

Also dont understimate the mans intelligence this venture was obviously not a spur of the moment thing. He has been in this business, and business generally to know that a clear strategy is key to success.

To be blunt, choice and competition benefit the punter in the long run, look how its transforming the weekender market. I am a punter + I have more choice = Good thing

My verdict, Simon Borland Entrepreneur.

[TiggsTours]

Well at least you have something in common :whistle:

:rofl:

[TiggsTours]

If thats what it was all about ... then he's only followed the way that instructor after instructor has followed in setting up thier own venture. I'm no fan of SB but I do recognise that he has managed to promote himself as a clear brand and from that should be able to launch the new venture.

I'm not sure what the relationship is, if any, with Ceroc. If its an associated venture, then good marketing. If he's striking out alone that it oculd be seen taht he's really suckered Ceroc(tm) and they really should have seen it coming. Similar things have happened on a smaller scale up North for the last three yaers os so. Will be vaugely interested to see if/how the new venture succeeds and if/how Ceroc will seek to counter the competition (as they rarely let competition thrive ... RIP Hipsters :( )

:yeah:

No matter how SB went about it, no matter what you think of him, a little healthy competition never did anyone any harm.

[TiggsTours]

You are right about Friday's music - we were given a musical remit for the night.


I'm so glad to hear it!

GAG is right on one thing (sorry, should have warned you all to sit down before I started agreeing with him!) the music was dreadful, and was the reason that my friends and I were tucked up in bed with a cup of cocoa by midnight! Not that what you played wasn't any good, it was just all the same!

I was hoping that with such a good line up of DJs (going by your usual standard) the music would be good, if you are going to be DJing for SB regularly, I do hope you will take all feedback back to him, and that he will allow you both to live up to your usual high standards in future.

[TiggsTours]

Every single person I spoke to at the event and afterwards thought it was diabolically bad, and their negative feelings were compounded by the feeling that they had not been told what its primary purpose was.

I wonder it they were the same people clapping and cheering when Simon announced the Monday classes? I didn't see many people not joining in then.

No matter what the primary reason was for the invitation (and I think that's pretty obvious) it was a highly successful marketing ploy, its certainly got everyone talking!


The venture is doomed to failure.

Why not just wait and see, what's so wrong with Ceroc having some real competition? About time too, in my opinion!

[TurboTomato]

So at £10 entry, you need 150 people there, just to break even. Which is a lot, but SB's achieved that at ISH, and that's about normal for Finchley on Mondays - so it's not impossible.


That dance floor cannot comfortably accomodate that many dancers IMO. I certainly wouldn't make it a regular venue, even if it was close to me, purely on that. The fact that the floor itself is not really suitable, having those joins all over it so that it can be raised and lowered, doesn't really help. Dancing is about enjoyment to my mind, and there was little to enjoy about that venue. Don't get me wrong - I enjoyed the party on Friday (more due to the people rather than the dancing) and I wish him luck in his venture but I can't see it succeeding. Btw I didn't feel 'bewildered and upset' by the fact that he essentially used it as a launch - it was a free party for crying out loud, it was my choice to go there and I wasn't made to sign up to anything

[Cruella]

“A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” -Winston Churchill.

"If they can make penicillin out of moldy bread, they can sure make something out of you."- Muhammed Ali.


:whistle:

[Lynn]

Yet again, I say - it works in salsa clubs, so it's clearly not inherently impossible to get a nightclub-based partner dance business going....

Then again, if a venue is open longer, more people might spend time socialising than dancing. Again, picking up on the salsa comparison - the average salsa dancer I know who goes out to a salsa club often dances only a few tracks per hour - or even per evening - they spend much more time socialising than dancing. So why can't a similar MJ night, with less dancing but more of a 'night out with some dancing' work? I think it could - given the right location, marketing and focus. I'm not going to comment on how this was launched as I wasn't invited and wasn't there - but the concept in itself is certainly worth a try.


but people soon get bored with a one trick pony...Ah, the irony! :rofl: :wink:

[Gus]

Free country and all that but it's not ethical and does nothing to build the belief in him as someone you could respect and trust.Ethics in MJ???? Are you kidding. As soon as people see the pound notes ethics go out of the window.

Hypothetical situation. If a certain large MJ organisation sees that a certain new entrant to the market is making inroads into their market, after building it up from inside their business, just how far do you think they will go to address this anomaly?

[David Bailey]

That dance floor cannot comfortably accomodate that many dancers IMO.
I dunno, I didn't go - I'm using figures based on what people have said. Can't find any stats for the dimensions online.

Altough, blimey, I just looked it up, and it's not a nightclub any more!

It was revealed in October 2005 that the club had lost its public drinks licence and would no longer be able to serve alcohol as the local police didn't want what they called 'vertical drinking' in Leicester Square. The police also shut down most of the venues in the local area. Following this, in December 2005, the club was eventually forced to close, following reports of violence involving rival gangs. The Hippodrome is now an Event space for private parties and corporate hire.
Hmmm, that's something I didn't know. So presumably the organisers are looking around desperately for regular events which don't serve alcohol... Ah-ha.

This all makes a bit more sense now.

Although I still want to know what the problem with "vertical drinking" is :confused:


my friends and I were tucked up in bed with a cup of cocoa by midnight!
Wa-hey, sounds good to me. How many friends was that then? :whistle:

Sorry, couldn't resist

[straycat]

Hypothetical situation. If a certain large MJ organisation sees that a certain new entrant to the market is making inroads into their market, after building it up from inside their business, just how far do you think they will go to address this anomaly?

Aye. This used to be quite common around Southampton - more than one Hampshire independent has woken up to find the head of a New Forest pony on their bed - and there was the infamous episode when a Lejive taxi dancer wound up 'sleeping with the fishes' after some moonlighting work :really:

The MJ world is a tough one. :what:

[Gus]

Looking back on the posts maybe SB has kept to his 'larger than life form' and ruffled a few feathers by his blatent self-promotion. HOWEVER, as an entrepreneur thats the way to make a mark. Whether it workls or not only time will tell but I think its a GOOD THING. New format, targetting a new section of dancers. May just wake up Ceroc to rethink its approach ..... and for everyone watching from the sidelines it should be some real entertainment to see what happens. :waycool:

[TiggsTours]

Hmmm, that's something I didn't know. So presumably the organisers are looking around desperately for regular events which don't serve alcohol... Ah-ha.
Well, they were certainly serving alcohol on Friday night!

Wa-hey, sounds good to me. How many friends was that then? :whistle:

Sorry, couldn't resist:wink:

[Lory]

Why not just wait and see, what's so wrong with Ceroc having some real competition? About time too, in my opinion!
Whilst agreeing with you on some level, I don't actually think it 'will' be much direct competition for Ceroc, as I think this venture is aimed at exploiting a whole new market, one which Ceroc (so far) has not chosen to target.

As it stands at the moment, if it's a success, it can only be a good thing for MJ on the whole, if it fails, at least someone's had a go!:cool:

As for the party, I don't feel particularly damaged by the night, although, as I said before, it wasn't my cup of tea, I hated the music, the floor and the lighting but at the end of the day, I didn't pay. ;)

My personal thought is, SB was just a bit stupid, trying to make out it was ever a celebration of his 250th night teaching and that this was just an after thought... :rolleyes:

Although I still want to know what the problem with "vertical drinking" is :confused:


If one drinks enough, one usually ends up horizontal anyway :whistle:

[David Bailey]

Whilst agreeing with you on some level, I don't actually think it 'will' be much direct competition for Ceroc, as I think this venture is aimed at exploiting a whole new market, one which Ceroc (so far) has not chosen to target.
Absolutely. And it's a shame Ceroc hasn't done it IMO - I wonder if SB tried to get them interested in it as a Ceroc-based operation beforehand?

Of course, the fact that it's clearly a different market also makes is more difficult for Ceroc to prove damage if they're considering legal action.

Anyway, to sum up the discussion so far:

People agree that more MJ venues are Good Things (!)
People agree that the "250th class" thing was Dumb
People disagree as to whether this venue will work
People disagree as to whether any nightclub venue can work in MJ (although obviously they're wrong, 'coz it can, OK?)


Have I missed anything?

[Gus]

Whilst agreeing with you on some level, I don't actually think it 'will' be much direct competition for Ceroc, as I think this venture is aimed at exploiting a whole new market, one which Ceroc (so far) has not chosen to target.For a long while Ceroc used to run a Ceroc club at one of the Universities, down by Aldwych. Think it ran for several years. Not sure why it closed.

[TiggsTours]

Of course, the fact that it's clearly a different market also makes is more difficult for Ceroc to prove damage if they're considering legal action.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see that either Ceroc or Simon are going for any particular "market"? Just because he's holding it at the Hippodrome, doesn't mean he's aiming for a "young" market, and just because Ceroc tend to hold theirs in town hall's doesen't mean they're going for any other kind. They are both aiming their marketing at absolutely anyone who might be remotely interested in dancing, and that is not in anyway an "exclusive market" and Ceroc have no rights over them legally.

However, the fact that Simon's advertising of this was really aimed at Ceroc members, some of it through the "Ceroc" forum (that's how I was contacted, how many others?), and I understand that he also mentioned it at a Ceroc weekender, and as a celebration of his 250th class taught for Ceroc, would show that legally they would have a point, if they chose to prosecute.

I don't think there is anything wrong with what Simon has done, or is doing, but I do think that, legally and professionally, he has been extremely stupid in the way he's gone about it.

[El Salsero Gringo]

No, he was here to benefit from access to the network and to the venues, organizers, teachers and punters - job done.I don't see that that's such a bad or one-way thing. People don't work in a vacuum, and the experience one gets in a job - the contacts made, things learned - are just as much part of the reward as the ££ at the end of each night. Venue operators get the benefits of the reputation and contacts of the teachers they employ and that cuts both ways. I think you'd be hard pushed to say for sure that Ceroc didn't get value for money from Simon. And if he thinks he can do it better then one way or another we'll all be better off for him having tried.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Aye. This used to be quite common around Southampton - more than one Hampshire independent has woken up to find the head of a New Forest pony on their bedI sure hope they steer clear of donkeys.

[TiggsTours]

I don't see that that's such a bad or one-way thing. People don't work in a vacuum, and the experience one gets in a job - the contacts made, things learned - are just as much part of the reward as the ££ at the end of each night. Venue operators get the benefits of the reputation and contacts of the teachers they employ and that cuts both ways. I think you'd be hard pushed to say for sure that Ceroc didn't get value for money from Simon. And if he thinks he can do it better then one way or another we'll all be better off for him having tried.

:yeah: As far as I'm aware, Ceroc are not a registered charity.

[Lory]

I'm sorry, but I really don't see that either Ceroc or Simon are going for any particular "market"?

I agree, I can hardly see him turning people away whoever they are, or Ceroc, for that matter, turning anyone away, that might come as result as of being introduced to partner dancing off the back of this venture ;)

BUT

if you choose to play 99% of your music in one particular style (be it club, salsa, tango, blues or swing), I think you ARE targeting a certain clientele that likes that music and will go to that venue, specifically cos they like that style!

I'll be the first to admit, my music tastes have changed dramatically since I started at Ceroc! If i'd been thrown straight into a full on Jango mix on my first night, I doubt if i'd have gone back!:blush:

[Andreas]

I agree, I can hardly see him turning people away whoever they are, or Ceroc, for that matter, turning anyone away, that might come as result as of being introduced to partner dancing off the back of this venture ;)

BUT

if you choose to play 99% of your music in one particular style (be it club, salsa, tango, blues or swing), I think you ARE targeting a certain clientele that likes that music and will go to that venue, specifically cos they like that style!

I'll be the first to admit, my music tastes have changed dramatically since I started at Ceroc! If i'd been thrown straight into a full on Jango mix on my first night, I doubt if i'd have gone back!:blush:

You obviously haven't been to NZ yet. Christine Simmons of Ceroc Hamilton is banning people that go to Ceroc Cambridge, not all of them but some ... say no more.

[Lory]

You obviously haven't been to NZ yet. Christine Simmons of Ceroc Hamilton is banning people that go to Ceroc Cambridge, not all of them but some ... say no more.

What for :confused:

[Lou]

Have I missed anything?
Yeah. Would you be so kind to explain to me (as someone who isn't Ceroc™ or London centric) just what all the fuss is about? AFAIK, new MJ ventures aren't that unusual... :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Yeah. Would you be so kind to explain to me (as someone who isn't Ceroc™ or London centric) just what all the fuss is about? AFAIK, new MJ ventures aren't that unusual... :flower:They are very unusual in London. And this one does seem to have started in a particularly underhand way.

[robd]

You obviously haven't been to NZ yet. Christine Simmons of Ceroc Hamilton is banning people that go to Ceroc Cambridge, not all of them but some ... say no more.

What have we done to upset her :confused:







See my location if this makes no sense.

[Get a grip]

I'm not going to comment on how this was launched as I wasn't invited and wasn't there -

Can't think why....:whistle:



Hypothetical situation. If a certain large MJ organisation sees that a certain new entrant to the market is making inroads into their market, after building it up from inside their business, just how far do you think they will go to address this anomaly?

I really don't think Ceroc are bothered about SOB as they have a tried and tested formula and it works very effectively. If Simon wants to try and break a new market more fool he. If it works I guess Ceroc will look at it more closely and could easily put him out of business if they wanted to. If it doesn't then hey, guess what? It's cost Ceroc nothing to find out that it was a crap idea.

I don't think SOB realizes that he is doing some very valuable R&D for Ceroc at his own expense - more rope anyone?

[Gus]

They are very unusual in London. And this one does seem to have started in a particularly underhand way.Hey, not even close to underhand. Rumour is a club up here got started by a teacher announcing from stage, as they were teaching for the last time, that they were starting a new club in direct competition. Must admit, that takes some real b*lls.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Hey, not even close to underhand. Rumour is a club up here got started by a teacher announcing from stage, as they were teaching for the last time, that they were starting a new club in direct competition. Must admit, that takes some real b*lls.That would at least be honest. This wasn't.

[fletch]

If Simon wants to try and break a new market more fool he. If it works I guess Ceroc will look at it more closely and could easily put him out of business if they wanted to.

I don't think SOB realizes that he is doing some very valuable R&D for Ceroc at his own expense -

Gosh :eek: it must be so nice for Ceroc to be perched on the top of that pedestal. :rolleyes: Thing is with pedestal you never now when they might fall.:na:



One thing is for sure in life, if you never try and have a go, you will never make a mistake, for someone who has spent most of my life taking chances, I say good you him for taking a chance, I wish him all the look in the world, and if I could be there on a Monday I would, if its open on a Bank holiday i'll travel the 4 hours to support him.


Go for it Simon :worthy:


.

[Gus]

If Simon wants to try and break a new market more fool he.Why fool? You may not like the guy all but all credit to those who try something new. History shows that those who are first in the game CAN make it big.


If it works I guess Ceroc will look at it more closely and could easily put him out of business if they wanted to.And how could they put him out of business? :whistle:


I don't think SOB realizes that he is doing some very valuable R&D for Ceroc at his own expense - more rope anyone?And who could Ceroc put up against SB. I don't think any of their teachers have got a bigger mouth or ego ... and thats maybe what it would take. Being slightly more objective, why should Ceroc want to? they have got a capable business model that already works but still needs more marketing investment. It would make far more sense to focus on their core market.

[straycat]

And how could they put him out of business? :whistle:

They could cut his feet off. That one usually works quite well, I've found :whistle:

[fletch]

If one drinks enough, one usually ends up horizontal anyway :whistle:

I see you have been out with Witty then :whistle:


:wink: :D

[David Bailey]

I'm sorry, but I really don't see that either Ceroc or Simon are going for any particular "market"? Just because he's holding it at the Hippodrome, doesn't mean he's aiming for a "young" market, and just because Ceroc tend to hold theirs in town hall's doesen't mean they're going for any other kind. They are both aiming their marketing at absolutely anyone who might be remotely interested in dancing, and that is not in anyway an "exclusive market" and Ceroc have no rights over them legally.
Well, choice of venue determines market, to a large degree.

And the Hippodrome is not a venue to attract - for example - 40-something married / divorced people, whose main mode of transport by car, living in the suburbs. It's a venue to attract a club(-ish) demographic, which means 18-25s. The choice of music on Friday also sounds like it reflected this.

Pretty much every leisure business has some demographic targetting - at least, successful ones do.


However, the fact that Simon's advertising of this was really aimed at Ceroc members, some of it through the "Ceroc" forum (that's how I was contacted, how many others?), and I understand that he also mentioned it at a Ceroc weekender, and as a celebration of his 250th class taught for Ceroc, would show that legally they would have a point, if they chose to prosecute.
Oh, don't get me wrong - IANAL but I don't know if he's completely in the clear. Just that he could make those sort of "empty market" arguments in court, if it came to that.


I don't think there is anything wrong with what Simon has done, or is doing, but I do think that, legally and professionally, he has been extremely stupid in the way he's gone about it.
Well, I'd put it rather as "he's made a couple of howling mistakes" - but that's life, starting up a new business involved mistakes. The trick is to learn from them, and not repeat them.

[ducasi]

Although I still want to know what the problem with "vertical drinking" is :confused: "Vertical drinking" is people drinking standing up. You tend to get more "disturbances" from groups of people drinking standing up, than when sitting down. Hope that helps clear up your confusion. :)

[Tessalicious]

I really can't be bothered to get into the whole argument, but I have to pick up on all the comments about the music at the party on Friday. I didn't personally particularly enjoy it, because I like variety and I wasn't in the mood to dance to 'fast and thumpy', but for the venue and the target audience ("club(-ish) demographic, which means 18-25s" to quote DavidJames), it was just right.

A certain friend of mine had a much better time on Friday than at a normal Ceroc night in London, despite knowing only five people there, because the music was of a type where if she didn't have a partner she was quite happy 'doing a fletch' or just enjoying 'her' type of music, and although she didn't dance much she would happily go again. Even more so if she finds in future that the crowd are a similar age to her, with similar tastes etc.

I think the nature of a club-style venue is that, particularly if you play the kind of music that might be heard in a normal club, you are likely to get fewer people dancing at a time, because they are used to standing around chatting, drinking, or dancing on their own at the side. Therefore the small floor space doesn't necessarily limit the number of people (except for classes), so you can bring in loads of people - turnover will be high, learning rate will be slow, but it will be mostly young people and mostly having a great time.

[Lou]

Hey, not even close to underhand.
Exactly. There's been a lot worse. And it's not as if you didn't have your suspicions, ESG. :D And you all got a free party out of it. That's more than your Average Underhand Startup normally offers!

So why all the pontificating on possible legal challenges? :rolleyes: Ceroc™ don't have a monopoly on MJ classes - even here in The Capital. Simon Borland didn't JUST target Ceroc™ bigwigs - I saw the invitation on uk-jive.

*** - it's just another MJ night. (Although I'm impressed about the variety of classes on offer on The Website That Mustn't Be Mentioned). Let's just keep a sense of proportion. :flower:

[bigdjiver]

That would at least be honest. This wasn't.Working for a competitor whilst being paid by your employer is "honest" ? :confused:

[David Bailey]

So why all the pontificating on possible legal challenges? :rolleyes:
'Coz I like to pontificate, it's good for the soul.


Ceroc™ don't have a monopoly on MJ classes - even here in The Capital.
Don't they?

Can you name one other non-Ceroc large-scale mainstream MJ class in London (Jango does not count)? AFAIK, Hipsters was the last one until now.


*** - it's just another MJ night. (Although I'm impressed about the variety of classes on offer on The Website That Mustn't Be Mentioned). Let's just keep a sense of proportion. :flower:
No, hysteria and religious denunciation is more fun! Burn him!

[straycat]

Working for a competitor whilst being paid by your employer is "honest" ? :confused:

Depends on whether your employer ever finds out :innocent:

[Lou]

Working for a competitor whilst being paid by your employer is "honest" ? :confused:
It's not exactly ethical - however, it's the best way to start up your own business, and not exactly unheard of.... :rolleyes:

Anybody would think the chap committed murder, or something, the way everyone's going on. It's Just. Another. Dance. Class.

[David Bailey]

Anybody would think the chap committed murder, or something, the way everyone's going on.
Really?

I dunno, I don't get the impression that everyone's favourite demon is now Mr Borland. In fact, I don't think there's that much of a consensus one way or t' other - if anything, people mostly seem to think it's a good idea. Which is right, of course, because it's my opinion.

I should be shot for saying this, but maybe we should have a poll? :eek:

[Lou]

Can you name one other non-Ceroc large-scale mainstream MJ class in London (Jango does not count)? AFAIK, Hipsters was the last one until now.
Why doesn't Jango count?
Hipsters wasn't that long ago, neither.
And does it have to be large-scale? There's a few independents listed on uk-jive. Dunno what they teach, nor the size of their classes....

And .... are you sitting comfortably, DJ?... there is a world OUTSIDE London. :wink:

[TheTramp]

Why doesn't Jango count?
Hipsters wasn't that long ago, neither.

Because it's a small club that's almost a private one?

Wasn't Hipsters over about 18 months ago. Apart from the BFF's, which don't count?

Personally, I think that Simon might have maybe started up in the wrong way. Having said that, I don't think that it's quite as bad as some people have been saying (without having experienced it myself of course).

And I wish him all the best. I doubt that I'll be going - it's a little far, and if I was in London on a Monday, I'd be at Jango (isnt' it called Meltdown now though?) for Sheepy's music, and Sparkles' cake (not to mention the dances with her!). But it'll be interesting to see how it does, and whether or not it does provide a new way into MJ for a different group of people who might appreciate the more clubby feel.

Oh, and if it was solely thump-thump music, isn't that just Simon going back to his Aussie roots (of 2 years ago)? Were the DJs allowed to play anything other than Sash? :devil:

[TheTramp]

And .... are you sitting comfortably, DJ?... there is a world OUTSIDE London. :wink:

Oh. And don't be silly. Except for Scotland of course.

But Bristol definitely doesn't count! :whistle:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Working for a competitor whilst being paid by your employer is "honest" ? :confused:Who was doing that? In the example given he quit one week, and started up the next.

Was it honest to be planning his own class while still teaching for someone else? Strictly speaking, no; but in the same way it's not strictly honest to browse the sits-vac columns or apply for new jobs - until you've quit your old one - but that's not how the world works.

The dishonestly I was referring to was to his (potential) customers - concerning the reason behind the party. You may burn your bridges with your former employer when you leave, one accepts that. But it seems dubious to burn the bridges with your customers before you've even built them.

[Gus]

Who was doing that? In the example given he quit one week, and started up the next.Interesting that you assumed it to be a bloke :whistle:

[David Bailey]

Why doesn't Jango count?
'Coz, like, 2 people go to it, and they usually get lost getting there. Money-wise, it's insignificant.


Hipsters wasn't that long ago, neither.
Yeah, but it's not running now, and that's the point.


And does it have to be large-scale? There's a few independents listed on uk-jive. Dunno what they teach, nor the size of their classes....
Yes, because that's the premise - that Ceroc has a monopoly (or near-as-damnit) in London.


And .... are you sitting comfortably, DJ?... there is a world OUTSIDE London. :wink:
Yes, because that's the premise - that Ceroc has a monopoly (or near-as-damnit) in London.

Hold on, was that an echo? You stated the premise, now you're attacking it? :confused:

[straycat]

Oh. And don't be silly. Except for Scotland of course.

So the rest of us just drift along in the gaps between the two realities, in a state of perpetual near-existance? That would explain a lot.

Come to think though, I've only ever seen you outside of London or Scotland, Trampy. Which suggests that you don't really exist either :devil:

[TiggsTours]

And .... are you sitting comfortably, DJ?... there is a world OUTSIDE London. :wink:

There are actually areas of the country where Ceroc have tried, a number of times, to get a foothold, but with no success.





The point is, does anyone on this forum think for one second that Simon is doing anything wrong in setting up his own classes? (Why does it have to be seen as opposition!?). I can see that some people may be upset at his decision to market it the way he did, although he did say in his email that came out:


Whats Next? - Well the originally proposed party for 150 has snowballed astronomically. With now in excess of 1000 (only 700 permitted this time) people super keen to be part of what is now shaping up to be the worlds first Jive Super Club, we have had to turn away many due to strict licencing laws. (Sorry guys :-( ) With a full house, we certainly have the owner’s attention, and they will be watching this Friday 20th Oct with great interest. They are amazed by your response rates, five times higher than we promised them. Great news - tonight the owners of The Hippodrome have said that we can do it all again soon! If you want to support us in creating an ongoing Jive Super Club then lets make the place hum. If this is a conflict for you personally, we understand - Please contact us if you do not wish to come, as I can contact people on the waitlist. Or come and see it and enjoy the party all the same! If you want to support and have ideas, send them in, and if you want further updates, just email me simon@simonborland.com

so, if you really didn't like what he was doing, he did give you the opportunity to first of all, not attend, and secondly, tell him. If you chose to attend the event still, and then complain about it afterwards, more fool you!

[El Salsero Gringo]

Interesting that you assumed it to be a bloke :whistle:I noticed it too; but I didn't want to spoil the flow of what turned out to be a well-written post by rewording it.

[El Salsero Gringo]

The point is, does anyone on this forum think for one second that Simon is doing anything wrong in setting up his own classes?No one on the Forum that I've read, I don't think...
If you chose to attend the event still, and then complain about it afterwards, more fool you!... in which case who exactly are you addressing?

[TiggsTours]

No one on the Forum that I've read, I don't think...... Exactly, so can we all stop discussing whether or not Simon setting up on his own is right or wrong?

in which case who exactly are you addressing?Erm, everyone on here who's complained about his "underhanded" or "dishonest" tactics, thought that was obvious.

[bigdjiver]

Who was doing that? In the example given he quit one week, and started up the next....I would count advertising your competing night from the stage whilst being paid to teach as working for a competitor.(in this case themself)

[Gus]

I noticed it too; but I didn't want to spoil the flow of what turned out to be a well-written post by rewording it.Agreed. Whether people like what SB is or what he did should be irrelevant. From a dance or business perspective I think there is much to be learned. The basic Ceroc model has stayed more or less the same for about 25 years ... time for a change? Though this particular venture may not succeed it may give others
the impetus to others to innovate :)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Erm, everyone on here who's complained about his "underhanded" or "dishonest" tactics, thought that was obvious.You'll have to run past me one more time the reason why no-one should comment on either of those things; I must have missed it the first time around.

[TiggsTours]

You'll have to run past me one more time the reason why no-one should comment on either of those things; I must have missed it the first time around.

You seem to have misunderstood (nothing new there then), what I'm saying is, why is everyone still talking about the rights and wrongs of him setting up on his own, when everyone seems to agree that there is no wrong there?

As for discussing the rights and wrongs of his advertising tactics, feel free to carry on, if you wish, I'm just expressing my opinion of "more fool you" (not you per say) for going along Friday night, when he made it quite clear in his emails before the evening exactly what he was intending. If you (not you per say) didn't want to be a part of this "underhanded" tactic, he did give everyone the opportunity to decide not to go.

[David Bailey]

Agreed. Whether people like what SB is or what he did should be irrelevant.
Well, being pedantic, it's only relevant if that like / dislike translates into gain / loss of revenue. And to be fair, as has been said, goodwill (from your customers) is important in business, especially in the leisure industry.

But, "What 5-10 people on the Forum like / dislike is irrelevant" is probably true. Even me, sadly enough. :tears:


From a dance or business perspective I think there is much to be learned. The basic Ceroc model has stayed more or less the same for about 25 years ... time for a change? Though this particular venture may not succeed it may give others
the impetus to others to innovate :)
Exactly.

In fact, I was thinking that, over the past 10 years or so, Ceroc seem to have drifted out of running venues in the central London area, and I think that's changed the demographic somewhat. A few years ago, you had the Central Club in Tottenham Court Road, 4 nights a week - now, there's almost nowhere.

[straycat]

You seem to have misunderstood (nothing new there then), what I'm saying is, why is everyone still talking about the rights and wrongs of him setting up on his own, when everyone seems to agree that there is no wrong there?

Because it's so much fun pulling people down from their lofty heights, savagely mauling them, mercilessly trampling them into the muddy ground, and leaving their mangled remains for the ravening Salsero hordes of London to feed on?

You should try it sometime :wink:

[under par]

There are actually areas of the country where Ceroc have tried, a number of times, to get a foothold, but with no success.





The point is, does anyone on this forum think for one second that Simon is doing anything wrong in setting up his own classes? (Why does it have to be seen as opposition!?). I can see that some people may be upset at his decision to market it the way he did, although he did say in his email that came out:



so, if you really didn't like what he was doing, he did give you the opportunity to first of all, not attend, and secondly, tell him. If you chose to attend the event still, and then complain about it afterwards, more fool you!

Sorry TT you are presuming that everyone recieved an email or 2!!!

I was pm'd and accepted via pm.

I had no further communication apart from the 2 pm s .

I accepted blindly ..I attended blindly.. and I was so disappointed with the music it was absolutely dire in the main, the size of the dance floor and the quality of the dance floor and too many flashing lights.

I have no real right to complain though as I paid nothing and accepted blindly. I should asked more questions!!!

Had I had my own transport onthe night I would have left much much earlier like many others. But I spent the evening watching from afar upon high with numerous others for what seemed like the longest night ever...
(ps I did try and get on the dance floor occasionally!)

Mrs Par enjoyed the night apart from having her foot stamped on twice!

Good luck to Simon in his venture.

I for one will not be attending a similar event again though.

Under Par

[El Salsero Gringo]

You seem to have misunderstood (nothing new there then), what I'm saying is, why is everyone still talking about the rights and wrongs of him setting up on his own, when everyone seems to agree that there is no wrong there?No, I understand ok. We're not discussing the rights and wrongs of him setting up on his own. We're discussing the rights and wrongs of the way he's gone about announcing it. Feel free not to join in if you don't want to.
As for discussing the rights and wrongs of his advertising tactics, feel free to carry on, if you wish, I'm just expressing my opinion of "more fool you" (not you per say) for going along Friday night, when he made it quite clear in his emails before the evening exactly what he was intending. If you (not you per say) didn't want to be a part of this "underhanded" tactic, he did give everyone the opportunity to decide not to go.He categorically *didn't* say, anywhere, in advance, "I'm opening my own class every week and this is the promotion event". If he had, that would have been honest. But he didn't (and lord knows, he had plenty of opportunities.) Hints, and sneakily-worded emails do not count as honesty in my book. If you deliberately set out to decieve -which he did - then it's just nasty to rely on "well you should have guessed" to cover your arse. Shame on you, Tiggs.

[David Bailey]

You seem to have misunderstood (nothing new there then), what I'm saying is, why is everyone still talking about the rights and wrongs of him setting up on his own, when everyone seems to agree that there is no wrong there?
Coz we like to talk? Coz it's Monday and we're bored?

EDIT: no, take that back, I prefer straycat264's "ravening Salsero hordes" answer :rofl:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Because it's so much fun pulling people down from their lofty heights, savagely mauling them, mercilessly trampling them into the muddy ground, and leaving their mangled remains for the ravening Salsero hordes of London to feed on?

You should try it sometime :wink:I expect she would if she was able ... :whistle:

[TiggsTours]

Because it's so much fun pulling people down from their lofty heights, savagely mauling them, mercilessly trampling them into the muddy ground, and leaving their mangled remains for the ravening Salsero hordes of London to feed on?

You should try it sometime :wink:

:worthy:


Sorry TT you are presuming that everyone recieved an email or 2!!!

I was pm'd and accepted via pm.

I had no further communication apart from the 2 pm s .
Fair enough, but that was hardly Simon's fault, that was the fault of whoever booked you a space, for not passing on the full information that Simon sent out. An organiser can only send details to the lead name on a booking, and hope that the lead name forwards that to everyone they have booked for.


I accepted blindly ..I attended blindly.. and I was so disappointed with the music it was absolutely dire in the main, the size of the dance floor and the quality of the dance floor and too many flashing lights.

I have no real right to complain though as I paid nothing and accepted blindly. I should asked more questions!!!

Had I had my own transport onthe night I would have left much much earlier like many others. But I spent the evening watching from afar upon high with numerous others for what seemed like the longest night ever...
(ps I did try and get on the dance floor occasionally!)

Mrs Par enjoyed the night apart from having her foot stamped on twice!

Good luck to Simon in his venture.

I for one will not be attending a similar event again though.

Under Par


Like you, I attended the event, didn't enjoy it, and won't attend again. That is totally different to complaining about Simon's advertising techniques, that is expressing an opinion of the evening, regardless of any announcements.

[TiggsTours]

I expect she would if she was able ... :whistle:

When I believe there is a need to. :whistle:

[straycat]

I expect she would if she was able ... :whistle:

Reminds me of that old joke about how do you make a donkey go 'meow'...
um.
no.
not sure that was it.... :whistle:
:flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Fair enough, but that was hardly Simon's fault, that was the fault of whoever booked you a space, for not passing on the full information that Simon sent out.He didn't send out any information, because he was being dishonest about things. He was even dishonest to me on the phone on Thursday when I asked him, point-blank, what was going on. I wonder how those doing the inviting feel about their part in the deception?

[under par]

He was even dishonest to me on the phone on Thursday when I asked him, point-blank, what was going on. I wonder how those doing the inviting feel about their part in the deception?

Good point ESG the lovely person who invited me was probably fed a few lines as well .

I do not hold any malice against the invitor...... the dishonest approach to setting up this event rests firmly on the organiser's shoulders!!!!

nuff said

[Lou]

Hold on, was that an echo? You stated the premise, now you're attacking it? :confused:

Nah - my premise is that it's not unusual for new MJ organisations to start-up in the UK. ESG did then point out that he felt it was unusual in London. This is a fair enough viewpoint, as no doubt most people feel that 2 new well known starts-ups (Hipsters & JangoLushMelt) plus several smaller independents within London in the last 5 years isn't all that much. I'm not sure I agree, but I've listened to the comment, and I accept the validity of the opinion.

I also feel it's not unusual for a person involved with one organisation to then go on to start up independently. I agreed with Gus that this example is not even as unethical, dishonest and blatent as other ones we've seen. And it's not as if the more cynical/experienced forumites didn't see it coming. (Do you really think that an intelligent person who was planning to go it alone would openly announce it beforehand? This is the real world).

And I think that there's a certain vocal percentage of the forum who would rather moan about perceived unfairness, illegality and conspiracies (when there's even no indication that even Ceroc™ HQ have that point of view - and even if they did, I doubt they'd admit it openly ;) ) than celebrate the fact that folks in London have even more variety and choice of where to dance.

So does that clarify my position, DJ?

[David Bailey]

{ snip stuff saying DJ was right all along }
So does that clarify my position, DJ?
Yep. :na:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Nah - my premise is that it's not unusual for new MJ organisations to start-up in the UK. ESG did then point out that he felt it was unusual in London. This is a fair enough viewpoint, as no doubt most people feel that 2 new well known starts-ups (Hipsters & JangoLushMelt) plus several smaller independents within London in the last 5 years isn't all that much. I'm not sure I agree, but I've listened to the comment, and I accept the validity of the opinion.It's not a weekly occurence, let's agree on that.
And I think that there's a certain vocal percentage of the forum who would rather moan about perceived unfairness, illegality and conspiraciesThere are very few walks of life where all kinds of truth-hiding (for want of a better expression) can be avoided at all times - still fewer outside monasteries and convents. Anyone who wants to mark Simon down for this one needs to understand that. And no, nobody died. But it's still an unusual way to go about things.

[Gus]

There are very few walks of life where all kinds of truth-hiding (for want of a better expression) can be avoided at all times - still fewer outside monasteries and convents. Anyone who wants to mark Simon down for this one needs to understand that. And no, nobody died. But it's still an unusual way to go about things.Simon took a risk and relied on his strong core of devotess and his strong personal brand. He may have well 'expolited' the situation but I think the key question is not the reponse fomr those who may feel 'had' ... but of Ceroc! AFAIK this is the first time for 6 years or so that someone has taken on Ceroc HQ in their own patch and, in some eyes, rubbed their noses in it aswell. It would be great if Ceroc would state what their view is. Are they pi$$ed off or supportive? Anyone got the inside word?

[El Salsero Gringo]

...but I think the key question is not the reponse fomr those who may feel 'had' ... but of Ceroc!I know you like to stir even more than I do, but why is this the "key" question?

[David Bailey]

I know you like to stir even more than I do, but why is this the "key" question?
I think he meant to type "yek question".

And it's definitely the yek question. No doubt about it.

[Gus]

I know you like to stir even more than I do, but why is this the "key" question?OK ... not THE key question, but an interesting question. Like all good gossip mags I'd like to know what Ceroc's views are and what, if any, will be their response.

[foxylady]

Having been away all weekend, have just read the whole of this thread with interest.

I was one of the people that Simon asked to 'invite' people... I understand he asked 25 or so of us to invite people. And I asked a number of people via the forum, and I feel that I let them down. Not because of the launching of the business empire bit though (I must be quite gullible I think as I really didn't believe that this was anything other than a party that I had been asked to 'help' with), but let them down because the evening as a 'dance' evening really wasn't very good.

I also think that people would feel less aggrieved by the 'business launch' stuff if they had had a cracking evening !!

It was free. The nibbles were good. It had a good atmosphere.
BUT the music was dire for (good) MJ, and the floor wasn't great.
I had 4 dances all evening !! and all my favourite dancers (well the southern ones anyway) were there - I had invited most of them... :drool:

All I can say to those that I invited is that had we had the right music (and more floor space) there aren't many who weren't there with whom I would have preferred to spend an evening dancing with than you guys ...


I hope this makes sense, and I hope I haven't inadvertently offended anyone in the writing of this post !

[Spin dryer]

How would they all feel if someone told them that the only reason they're at a Ceroc class is to make money for Ceroc?:whistle:

Nobody objects to the pursuit of profit; everone objects to being manipulated.

[Spin dryer]

I'd agree that "Blatantly deceiving some of your customer base" is not a good way to start, of course. But he's certainly got a lot of publicity for his venue, so in that sense it's worked.

It's not true that all publicity is good publicity. I have never in my many years of dancing heard so many people make so many negative comments about an event. Those who attended will of course pass on that negative message to an exponentially greater number. I doubt that there are many people jiving at the Hippodrome tonight.

[WittyBird]

I doubt that there are many people jiving at the Hippodrome tonight.

:yeah: 2nd part of Spooks is on at 9pm.

[Spin dryer]

You obviously didn't speak to many then, or they were a select group. It was a free evening out at the Hippodrome. I enjoyed the experience and am grateful for the opportunity to see that the famous 'London Hippodrome' was as rough and seedy as any other nightclub. :D
I personally think it'll be a struggle for it to work but if it does, all well and good. I'm sure that Ceroc will benefit from younger people getting involved with partner dancing, afterall they have been trying to encourage younger members in for a while now.

I spoke to many people on the night and perhaps 25 women I danced with at Hammersmith the following evening. Not one person had anything positive to say. Incidentally Cruella, you do of course know how to stage a fantastic event (witness the Polar Freeze last year).

[Spin dryer]

I wonder it they were the same people clapping and cheering when Simon announced the Monday classes? I didn't see many people not joining in then.

The clapping could be characterised as courteous and somewhat embarrassed (even I joined in). People near to me were whooping ironically.

[Spin dryer]

Well, they were certainly serving alcohol on Friday night!
:wink:

Yes, but only until midnight, which is rather unusual for club.

[David Bailey]

It's not true that all publicity is good publicity. I have never in my many years of dancing heard so many people make so many negative comments about an event.
First Chiswick at Ceroc?

Besides:
- We've only heard from about 10 people, there were 700 there.
- I know for a fact that several forumites enjoyed it but don't want to say so publicly
- The forum is so far from the Hippodrome target market, that it's like asking the W.I. their opinion of Dr Dre.


Those who attended will of course pass on that negative message to an exponentially greater number. I doubt that there are many people jiving at the Hippodrome tonight.
I'm sure we'll find out...

[Feelingpink]

...
- The forum is so far from the Hippodrome target market, that it's like asking the W.I. their opinion of Dr Dre.
...Now look here, the WI isn't all bus pass holders, you know! The branch I belong to is comprised of 20, 30 and 40 somethings. So there! :tongue sticking out smiley:

[David Bailey]

Now look here, the WI isn't all bus pass holders, you know! The branch I belong to is comprised of 20, 30 and 40 somethings. So there! :tongue sticking out smiley:
:sigh:

My point was, the WI are not going to give a favourable impression (in public) of Dr Dre, and the Forum seems to have a similar type of young-people-going-nightclubbing-tsk attitude.

[Feelingpink]

:sigh:

My point was, the WI are not going to give a favourable impression (in public) of Dr Dre, and the Forum seems to have a similar type of young-people-going-nightclubbing-tsk attitude.I understand your point ... but could you make it without reinforcing incorrect stereotypes please? Ta. :hug:

[Lou]

:rolleyes: Still speculating baselessly & wildly?

So, FP - how do you feel about Dr Dre?

[Gus]

So ... back on thread .... any reports from the openning night? At least (so far) ther's not been the usual claims to be teaching something new/innovative/fusion/better than anyone else ..... we get that all the time up here :wink: Whats hus USP? What will be the key to pulling in the customers (away from Ceroc(tm) venues?) ?

[Feelingpink]

:rolleyes: Still speculating baselessly & wildly?

So, FP - how do you feel about Dr Dre?Don't like him much, although guess I could west coast to some of his stuff if pushed (& preferably drunk). I don't know about holding him up as a bastion of happening dudeness - the guy's older than me :what:

[El Salsero Gringo]

So ... back on thread .... any reports from the openning night? At least (so far) ther's not been the usual claims to be teaching something new/innovative/fusion/better than anyone else ..... we get that all the time up here :wink: Whats hus USP? What will be the key to pulling in the customers (away from Ceroc(tm) venues?) ?Um.... what could possible be uniqueabout Simon Borland teaching at the Hippodrome...there's something there ... but I can't quite put my finger on it. Nope, it's gone.

To be honest I can't see him pulling customers away from Ceroc, more likely generating his own customers from the non-dancing public. There are 11 million people living in london, and to a first approximation 0% of them have ever tried any form of partner dance.

[TiggsTours]

No, I understand ok. We're not discussing the rights and wrongs of him setting up on his own. We're discussing the rights and wrongs of the way he's gone about announcing it. Feel free not to join in if you don't want to.
You're very good at just pulling out the bits of people's quotes that you want to use to make them look bad, and ignoring the other bits, aren't you? e.g. the rest of my quote:


As for discussing the rights and wrongs of his advertising tactics, feel free to carry on, if you wish, I'm just expressing my opinion of "more fool you" (not you per say) for going along Friday night, when he made it quite clear in his emails before the evening exactly what he was intending. If you (not you per say) didn't want to be a part of this "underhanded" tactic, he did give everyone the opportunity to decide not to go.


He didn't send out any information, because he was being dishonest about things.


He categorically *didn't* say, anywhere, in advance, "I'm opening my own class every week and this is the promotion event". If he had, that would have been honest. But he didn't (and lord knows, he had plenty of opportunities.) Hints, and sneakily-worded emails do not count as honesty in my book. If you deliberately set out to decieve -which he did - then it's just nasty to rely on "well you should have guessed" to cover your arse. Shame on you, Tiggs.

Ah, so I just imagined receiving this email then, or made it up?:


If you want to support us in creating an ongoing Jive Super Club then lets make the place hum. If this is a conflict for you personally, we understand - Please contact us if you do not wish to come, as I can contact people on the waitlist.


He was even dishonest to me on the phone on Thursday when I asked him, point-blank, what was going on. I wonder how those doing the inviting feel about their part in the deception?
Fair enough, if you had a private conversation with him that left you feeling deceived, that's different, also, the people involved in inviting large groups of people for him also have every right to feel deceived, and if they choose to comment, that's fine. However, I personally was invited to a free party, I then received an email from Simon that (in my mind) clearly stated that he was embarking on launching a regular event, this would be the launch party for that, and if I didn't feel that I wanted to attend under those conditions, he would fully understand. I do not feel I was deceived in anyway, I'm sorry for those of you who do.

[Paulthetrainer]

I went to Simon Borlands 'party' on Friday - I'd never heard of him beforehand. I just got a text from a friend who somehow knew about it and gave me simon's email. I contacted him and got four places for myself and three friends. Anyway, my immediate thought was "why would some guy who doesn't know me, let me come to a 'free party' - he must be looking to ultimately promote something!". Which was correct....I went anyway cos a) it was free, and b) whatever he was trying to promote might be good.

Personally I didn't feel duped, but I guess others might have saw it differently depending on how they came across the info and if they already knew Simon...

[Amir]

Agree with all the above: The email made it clear that the intention was to create a new "Super Club".

So yes a new class was announced at the party, so what? It was still a private party that everyone there asked to be invited to. So what if '250 lessons' is not the 'real' reason for the party. Do you think Halloween is the real reason for any of the other jive parties happening? Will any of them be free?

What if Ceroc had held a free party at the Hippodrome, free food, show etc, and then on the night announced that they are going to start classes there every Monday. Would anyone be surprised? Would people have been upset?

I hope it is a big success.

Actually, I hope it is initially a big success, but then they all realize they would rather listen to chilled out quiet music in a relaxed atmosphere on a great dance floor somewhere like the Hammersmith Club.

But in the meantime, I hope it is a big success.

[TiggsTours]

Agree with all the above: The email made it clear that the intention was to create a new "Super Club".

So yes a new class was announced at the party, so what? It was still a private party that everyone there asked to be invited to. So what if '250 lessons' is not the 'real' reason for the party. Do you think Halloween is the real reason for any of the other jive parties happening? Will any of them be free?

What if Ceroc had held a free party at the Hippodrome, free food, show etc, and then on the night announced that they are going to start classes there every Monday. Would anyone be surprised? Would people have been upset?

I hope it is a big success.

Actually, I hope it is initially a big success, but then they all realize they would rather listen to chilled out quiet music in a relaxed atmosphere on a great dance floor somewhere like the Hammersmith Club.

But in the meantime, I hope it is a big success.
:yeah:
Oh, and by the way, you and Cat were fantastic! :drool:

[David Bailey]

Fair enough, if you had a private conversation with him that left you feeling deceived, that's different, also, the people involved in inviting large groups of people for him also have every right to feel deceived, and if they choose to comment, that's fine. However, I personally was invited to a free party, I then received an email from Simon that (in my mind) clearly stated that he was embarking on launching a regular event, this would be the launch party for that, and if I didn't feel that I wanted to attend under those conditions, he would fully understand. I do not feel I was deceived in anyway, I'm sorry for those of you who do.
Hmmm, I don't think anyone can really say that he was completely above-board. If you have to depend on hints, last-minute emails and rumours, then you're not being clearly-informed.

The main thing is, some people do feel deceived. Whether they "should" feel that way is irrelevant, the fact is, that's how they feel. It's a fact. So there's clearly some loss of goodwill from some people, which is a shame.

Personally, I didn't feel deceived, used, abused or exploited. But then, I didn't go, and probably won't go there in future either, so it's academic to me.


Actually, I hope it is initially a big success, but then they all realize they would rather listen to chilled out quiet music in a relaxed atmosphere on a great dance floor somewhere like the Hammersmith Club.
Somewhere like it, but not actually there, of course, because no-one can find it. :rofl:

[TiggsTours]

Hmmm, I don't think anyone can really say that he was completely above-board. If you have to depend on hints, last-minute emails and rumours, then you're not being clearly-informed.

The main thing is, some people do feel deceived. Whether they "should" feel that way is irrelevant, the fact is, that's how they feel. It's a fact. So there's clearly some loss of goodwill from some people, which is a shame.

That's fine, and if they want to waste their negative energy on feeling that way, that's up to them. Personally, I prefer to spend my positive energy on not feeling deceived, and not being pushed into believing I was deceived by people with a glass half empty way of looking at things.

[Lory]

Actually, I hope it is initially a big success, but then they all realize they would rather listen to chilled out quiet music in a relaxed atmosphere on a great dance floor somewhere like the Hammersmith Club.


I thinks its inevitable, if it is a success and he gains a completely new client base, there's bound to be a percentage that will end up spreading their wings, which 'will' benifit everyone else. :)

Although, when I first started at Finchley, it took me 6months to actually realise that 'Ceroc' wasn't just Monday's and Tuesdays at that particular venue! :blush: :rofl: Other venues and events were never ever mentioned! :cool:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Agree with all the above: The email made it clear that the intention was to create a new "Super Club". The email (the day before) made it somewhat hazy that might somehow be his intention if things worked out well. Which is why I spoke to him on the 'phone. What a pity that he didn't make clear when asked point-blank what his plans were. Pity also that it wasn't made clear at the time of my being invited, some three weeks earlier, so when I made plans to celebrate my girlfriend's birthday at this party I knew what it was going to be - and had the choice to do something else that night if I'd wanted to. Pity that the plans to teach a new weekly class, having arranged teachers, venue, preprinted materials, websites, trading names and the rest managed to be overlooked in this "maybe we'll have another party" sort of "Super Club". Pity the "the management decided tonight to let us have the venue on Monday so we've just decided we're going to start a class" line just somehow slipped out as if it were all a great big surprise to Simon himself.

Sorry but this way of going about things is all just so much bullshit. I still wish him and his class well, but don't try to tell me he's been even remotely straightforward.

[David Bailey]

Although, when I first started at Finchley, it took me 6months to actually realise that 'Ceroc' wasn't just Monday's and Tuesdays at that particular venue!
:confused: They do Tuesdays as well? :eek:


:blush: :rofl: Other venues and events were never ever mentioned! :cool:
:confused: There are other venues? :eek:

Blimey, no-one ever told me.

[El Salsero Gringo]

What if Ceroc had held a free partyThanks for the best laugh of the day.

[Amir]

Sorry but this way of going about things is all just so much bullshit. I still wish him and his class well, but don't try to tell me he's been even remotely straightforward.


Maybe he didn't feel he could be straightforward when




Ceroc ....could easily put him out of business if they wanted to.


I also think it is perfectly feasible that the Hippodrome wanted to see that he could run one successful event before agreeing to a weekly event. He can not be paying them the normal full hire fee, so its up to them too.

But even if it was all a cunning yet convoluted marketing ploy, (that backfired it seems) so what?

I just don't think that choosing to announce your new classes at your free party is 'cynical' or 'manipulative.'

[fletch]

But even if it was all a cunning yet convoluted marketing ploy, so what?

I just don't think that choosing to announce your new classes at your free party is 'cynical' or 'manipulative.'


:yeah:

[JamesGeary]

I am utterly confused at the flak Simon seems to have taken.
He wants to runs his own business rather than working for someone else (either is good) and has taken the steps necessary to make his business succeed (hopefully for him).

If he had promoted it as a regular night earlier then ceroc would have run a competing night on the same night, but free, and with free alcohol. Any sensible business would. Duh. I would.

I mean just think about Blackpool.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Maybe he didn't feel he could be straightforward I'm sure he felt that he couldn't - or shouldn't. He might even have been right - but that doesn't change the way it made me feel!

But even if it was all a cunning yet convoluted marketing ploy, (that backfired it seems) so what?No great shakes really. I don't dislike the man, and I don't hold anything against him. There is much that I admire about him.
I just don't think that choosing to announce your new classes at your free party is 'cynical' or 'manipulative.'Not necessarily per se, but he left me (and others) feeling a bit "used". It would have been nicer if he could have found a way that avoided that.

[MartinHarper]

I'm sure Simon will be happy to offer full refunds on his free party to anyone who feels used.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm sure Simon will be happy to offer full refunds on his free party to anyone who feels used.I'm interested in this implied concept that anything that isn't charged for in £'s and pence is ineligible for comment, and ultra common courtesy and consideration. Please expand on the subject!

[David Bailey]

So, did anyone go last night? What was it like?

I'm beginning to regret not going on Friday now, I feel left out of feeling used and abused...

[Lou]

....He might even have been right - but that doesn't change the way it made me feel!

....but he left me (and others) feeling a bit "used". ....


I feel left out of feeling used and abused...

I love this thread. :love: This is even better than Trisha. :respect:

[David Bailey]

I love this thread. :love: This is even better than Trisha. :respect:
"My friends all went out and got used, and I didn't - now I feel abused." ? :whistle:

[Lou]

"My friends all went out and got used, and I didn't - now I feel abused." ? :whistle:
"....and I didn't even get the refund!" ? :whistle:

[foxylady]

:yeah:
Oh, and by the way, you and Cat were fantastic! :drool:


That is the biggest understatement on this thread. Cat and Amir were sublime, and I personally loved the staging and lighting (albeit that the fog was slightly too dense at the beginning to actually see anything).

[Lory]

That is the biggest understatement on this thread. Cat and Amir were sublime, and I personally loved the staging and lighting (albeit that the fog was slightly too dense at the beginning to actually see anything).

:yeah: I was sitting on the balcony above and behind and had a perfect view, much better than i've seen in the photo's. :worthy:

I'd love to see it again :)

[Get a grip]

Still don't think some of you are getting this, especially Tiggs Tours who seems to have the morals of a goat (see her previous comments on the sleaze ball Nigel that she still insists on defending). 'He hasn't done anything wrong...' What a load of old twat. The guy purposely took every teaching job there was going to get noticed and to start building a reputation so that when (and there was no 'if' here) he set up on his own he could benefit from the the connections and the infrastructure that Ceroc had exposed him to. So maybe Ceroc where naive in trusting him, but there was no question from day 1 SOB's intentions were clear.

He then launches an event on the premise that it's just a free party to celebrate his 250th lesson and also lifted a number of Ceroc taxi dancers to 'help'.

Competition is great, but there is a big difference when someone sets up with their own connections and staff, and own format over someone who has premeditatedly ripped off their 'employer' and used the Ceroc network to get people along to an opening night on a false pretence.

The guy has no morals or ethics based on what he has done, so why would anyone want to support him or condone his actions?

[Feelingpink]

Still don't think some of you are getting this...

The guy has no morals or ethics based on what he has done, so why would anyone want to support him or condone his actions?Perhaps he has friends. But perhaps you wouldn't get that? :wink:

[straycat]

The guy has no morals or ethics based on what he has done, so why would anyone want to support him or condone his actions?

It seems evident from what you say that the man is a raving psychopathoic homicidal lunatic who does strange and cruel things to small animals. His misdeeds clearly must be compared to those of Hitler, Pol Pot, Attilla the Hun, Jack the Ripper, Tony Blair, Orville, Celine Dion and Dolly Parton.

But despite all this overwhelming evidence against him, I have, it would seem, been desensitised to such things by over-exposure to computer games, ultra-violent movies, crap Cuban-style salsa music and cheap trashy romantic novels, and am too wrapped up and self-involved in my own stressful world of day-to-day survival to give a toss.

What a tragedy.



(see her previous comments on the sleaze ball Nigel that she still insists on defending).

Funny your fixation on this one personage. Doth the lady protesteth overmuch?

[David Bailey]

:yeah: I was sitting on the balcony above and behind and had a perfect view, much better than i've seen in the photo's.
Funny how all the forumites grabbed the VIP area... :whistle:

[David Bailey]

It seems evident from what you say that the man is a raving psychopathoic homicidal lunatic who does strange and cruel things to small animals. His misdeeds clearly must be compared to those of Hitler, Pol Pot, Attilla the Hun, Jack the Ripper, Tony Blair, Orville, Celine Dion and Dolly Parton.
:rofl:

Look, I've got to spread it around before I rep you again, OK? Slow down on the wit, for goodness sakes, there won't be any left for the rest of us.

Plus, you missed out my primary school chemistry teacher. Now there was a Really Evil B&stard... :eek:

[Lory]

Funny how all the forumites grabbed the VIP area... :whistle:

:really: Oi, i'll have you know, I merely wandered up there in search of a little peace, a little space and a comfy seat, with a good view.. us oldies are like that :blush:

[straycat]

Plus, you missed out my primary school chemistry teacher. Now there was a Really Evil B&stard... :eek:

Worse than Orville??? :really:

[TiggsTours]

Still don't think some of you are getting this, especially Tiggs Tours who seems to have the morals of a goat (see her previous comments on the sleaze ball Nigel that she still insists on defending).
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....... Any chance of getting a yawning smillie on this thing?

'He hasn't done anything wrong...' What a load of old twat. The guy purposely took every teaching job there was going to get noticed and to start building a reputation so that when (and there was no 'if' here) he set up on his own he could benefit from the the connections and the infrastructure that Ceroc had exposed him to. So maybe Ceroc where naive in trusting him, but there was no question from day 1 SOB's intentions were clear.
You're absolutely right, (although, to be honest, if he supposedly took every teaching job possible in order to get noticed, he didn't do such a great job, even living in London I never went to one of his classes, or danced with the guy, and quite a few others on here have said they've never actually met him) and earlier on in this thread I did mention that I felt that he had been extremely stupid both legally and professionally in his actions, he has well and truly burnt all bridges with Ceroc and, I would imagine, left himself wide open to prosecution by them. What I am saying is that he has done nothing wrong in my eyes as a potential customer. Ceroc do not own me, or my loyalty, and I will take my business wherever I like, Simon has done nothing wrong by launching his own venture, and advertising it in whichever way he sees fit.


Perhaps he has friends. But perhaps you wouldn't get that? :wink:
:yeah:

"Poached" Ceroc's taxi dancers? Perhaps, like me, they had become utterly disgusted with the way Ceroc was treating them, and chose to leave of their own free will, and Simon just recognised the true potential in getting a highly dedicated team on side.

[David Bailey]

Worse than Orville??? :really:
Orville, whilst clearly Evil Beyond Measure, didn't throw blackboard rubbers with pinpoint accuracy and frightening velocity.

Well, not at me, at least.

[David Bailey]

"Poached" Ceroc's taxi dancers? Perhaps, like me, they had become utterly disgusted with the way Ceroc was treating them, and chose to leave of their own free will, and Simon just recognised the true potential in getting a highly dedicated team on side.
Dedicated? :rofl:

I know some of these people... :innocent:

[Feelingpink]

Orville, whilst clearly Evil Beyond Measure, didn't throw blackboard rubbers with pinpoint accuracy and frightening velocity.

Well, not at me, at least.Being taught physics in your chemistry lesson ... I'm surprised he didn't charge extra!

[Get a grip]

I felt that he had been extremely stupid both legally and professionally in his actions, he has well and truly burnt all bridges with Ceroc and, I would imagine, left himself wide open to prosecution by them.

Yes.... and then you go on to say...



What I am saying is that he has done nothing wrong in my eyes as a potential customer. Ceroc do not own me, or my loyalty, and I will take my business wherever I like, Simon has done nothing wrong by launching his own venture, and advertising it in whichever way he sees fit.

So let me get this straight... you have said that 'he has been extremely stupid both legally and professionally in his actions, he has well and truly burnt all bridges with Ceroc and, I would imagine, left himself wide open to prosecution by them' and then you say 'Simon has done nothing wrong by launching his own venture, and advertising it in whichever way he sees fit.'

Which is it then??

So in your eyes it's ok to be liar, a cheat and a thief is it?




"Poached" Ceroc's taxi dancers? Perhaps, like me, they had become utterly disgusted with the way Ceroc was treating them, and chose to leave of their own free will, and Simon just recognised the true potential in getting a highly dedicated team on side.

No, you were SACKED as a taxi dancer Amanda, you didn't leave of your own accord... remember now? Or would you like me to elaborate more?

So pick the bones out of that one...

[David Bailey]

Being taught physics in your chemistry lesson ... I'm surprised he didn't charge extra!
I suspect he got more out of it than I did.

I'm getting bored of this Boreland thread now, I don't think there's much more to say of any substance here. So I'll carry on posting on it, of course.

[Alice]

If nothing else, if it's true that any publicity is good publicity, he's going the right way about it!! I suspect there will be a fair few who go along just to see what it's like, having had their curiosity piqued by these ...er...discussions (for want of a better word)







Could some kind moderator please correct the spelling of Simon's last name in the title? It's really getting on my nerves....

:flower:

Thanks:)

[straycat]

I suspect he got more out of it than I did.

I'm getting bored of this Boreland thread now, I don't think there's much more to say of any substance here. So I'll carry on posting on it, of course.

I think there's plenty of scope to continue. For example: who was most evil? Orville, Emu, or your chemistry teacher? Emu was arguably more overt in his atrocities, but I'm still plugging for Orville - his less-than-exemplary targetting skills notwithstanding - mainly because he was a lot more creepy :what:

It's a shame they scrapped the plans to use him as a Bond villain - I think he would have been quite unforgettable in that role...

[Cruella]

Could some kind moderator please correct the spelling of Simon's last name in the title? It's really getting on my nerves....

:flower:

Thanks:)

Do you not think that maybe it's an intentional play on his name?
Edit: Just seen DJs post! Maybe i'm turning into a female DJ, aargh!!

[David Bailey]

Emu was arguably more overt in his atrocities
Brave man - you realise of course that Northants Girly is now gunning for you?

[David Bailey]

Do you not think that maybe it's an intentional play on his name?
Edit: Just seen DJs post! Maybe i'm turning into a female DJ, aargh!!
OK, all this echo-ing is freaking me out now.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think there's plenty of scope to continue. For example: who was most evil? Orville, Emu, or your chemistry teacher? Emu was arguably more overt in his atrocities, but I'm still plugging for Orville - his less-than-exemplary targetting skills notwithstanding - mainly because he was a lot more creepy :what:

It's a shame they scrapped the plans to use him as a Bond villain - I think he would have been quite unforgettable in that role...You're all wrong. The smart money is on Sweep.

[Spin dryer]

I hate to be lawyerish, but I think those posting on this and the other "Boreland" threads should exercise a little caution. It's one thing to be critical of the event on Friday 20 October at the Hippodrome; it's quite another to make derogatory and, arguably, defamatory statements about him.

[TheTramp]

I hate to be lawyerish

Me too. I think I'll be a surf coach when I finish! :D

[Amir]

.... but he left me (and others) feeling a bit "used". It would have been nicer if he could have found a way that avoided that.

I agree with that. It would have been nicer. In fairness I don't think anyone organizing this expected such a negative reaction from people.

When I left on Friday night I knew some people would be surprised at the announcement, but I didn't think anyone would be upset by it. I thought people would be excited about a new club opening in Central London. And what a cool way to announce it too!

I was really shocked and surprised to read so much negativity about the night. I thought it was really special. I have never been to a modern jive event quite like it. It is not somewhere that I would personally choose to frequent, but I think its existence enriches our culture the same way the National Gallery does, even though I never go.

I think that if Simon had known certain people would have felt 'used' he may have taken steps to avoid it. I don't know him very well so I can't say. Either way, I still think the way some people are reacting it too much. At the most it was 'not nice.' Most of us are probably unintentionally not very nice several times a day. The end result though is a venture that I think deserves support.

[Amir]

Just to make it clear I am not in any way involved in promoting or organizing jivenation. I volunteered to do a cabaret there because I wanted to for my own selfish reasons - get it filmed on a professional stage. But my involvement ended there.

In fact last Monday we made a loss at Meltdown for the first time ever, maybe because of the new Monday night competition. So why am I defending the event and Simon so much?

I have no idea. Stupidity, probably.

But it is hard to start something new, for a new market. Like Get a Grip says, you do all the hard work, then a bigger organization can easily come along and make a profit out of your experimentation. It would be cool to see more new things encouraged and supported, not shot down.

[David Bailey]

In fact last Monday we made a loss at Meltdown for the first time ever, maybe because of the new Monday night competition.
Given the numbers involved (in both venues), I don't expect Simon's venue affected Meltdown much. There were loads of people at Finchley, maybe they all went there? :rofl:

[TiggsTours]

Yes.... and then you go on to say...



So let me get this straight... you have said that 'he has been extremely stupid both legally and professionally in his actions, he has well and truly burnt all bridges with Ceroc and, I would imagine, left himself wide open to prosecution by them' and then you say 'Simon has done nothing wrong by launching his own venture, and advertising it in whichever way he sees fit.'

Which is it then??

So in your eyes it's ok to be liar, a cheat and a thief is it?

Not at all, as I have said, I can completely understand Ceroc being upset that he has targetted their customers (hard not to really) but as a potential customer, I do not feel I was fooled in anyway.


No, you were SACKED as a taxi dancer Amanda, you didn't leave of your own accord... remember now? Or would you like me to elaborate more?

So pick the bones out of that one...
I have no idea who you are, but you are completely wrong on that score. I left Ceroc, as I was so unhappy, I had a number of correspondences from people at Ceroc saying they were sorry about the situation, and asking me to return, I did, temporarily, then one more thing was said which made me decide I could no longer continue to work for the organisation. I still have a copy of the email that I sent, and all responses back, and would be happy to make them public, if you like?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Not at all, as I have said, I can completely understand Ceroc being upset that he has targetted their customers (hard not to really) but as a potential customer, I do not feel I was fooled in anyway.I'm not sure that anyone from Ceroc has ever said that he's targetted their customers, or that anyone from Ceroc has said they're upset about anything he's done. In fact I'm fairly confident that no-one from Ceroc has ever said anything at all about this. So please let's not jump to conclusions.

[TiggsTours]

I'm not sure that anyone from Ceroc has ever said that he's targetted their customers, or that anyone from Ceroc has said they're upset about anything he's done. In fact I'm fairly confident that no-one from Ceroc has ever said anything at all about this. So please let's not jump to conclusions.

Sorry, I should have made that clearer, I'm not saying they are upset, I'm just saying I would understand if they were upset.

[David Bailey]

So, back to these emus...

[Get a grip]

.....then one more thing was said which made me decide I could no longer continue to work for the organisation.

Yes,I know what that one thing was....YOU'RE SACKED!

[Gus]

I'm not sure that anyone from Ceroc has ever said that he's targetted their customers, or that anyone from Ceroc has said they're upset about anything he's done. In fact I'm fairly confident that no-one from Ceroc has ever said anything at all about this. ....and I'm not sure that anyone from Ceroc has ever said anything on this Forum full-stop. Shame really, maybe Ceroc has missed an opportuntity to communicate with the masses.

[Gus]

Yes,I know what that one thing was....YOU'RE SACKED!Try playing NICE :grin: (Yeah, I know , pot calling kettle black etc) ... but there is no need to get another thread taken outside just because GAG wants to carry out a personal vendetta. If you've got problem .. use the PM system. ..... seems to be a lot of anger .... either someone is a Ceroc evangelist or simply not getting any ..... answers as to what the any is on the back of a postcard please.:flower:

[straycat]

So, back to these emus...

I'm still traumatised by your implication of a vendetta from the emu-loving contingent, and by ESG's mention of The-Glove-Puppet-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named. They never did solve the mystery of Sooty's grisly murder - but .... we all knew ... :sad:

[NZ Monkey]

...and I'm not sure that anyone from Ceroc has ever said anything on this Forum full-stop. Shame really, maybe Ceroc has missed an opportuntity to communicate with the masses.An act of self preservation I think.

Can you imagine how much anything they said would be twisted and taken out of context by people with agendas? Especially if someone’s personal view is interpreted as being an official Ceroc HQ position.

[TiggsTours]

...and I'm not sure that anyone from Ceroc has ever said anything on this Forum full-stop. Shame really, maybe Ceroc has missed an opportuntity to communicate with the masses.

Again.


Try playing NICE :grin: (Yeah, I know , pot calling kettle black etc) ... but there is no need to get another thread taken outside just because GAG wants to carry out a personal vendetta. If you've got problem .. use the PM system. ..... seems to be a lot of anger .... either someone is a Ceroc evangelist or simply not getting any ..... answers as to what the any is on the back of a postcard please.:flower:

I have just PMd GAG my email that I sent to Ceroc telling them of my decision to leave, I can also PM him the email I received telling me that I am a valuable member of the crew and they hope I reconsider. If anyone else wants to see them, let me know, but I'm sure that none of the rest of you really care!

(Yawning smillie needed, once more).

I'd love to know what GAG's personal issue is with me, I have asked him privately to let me know, but he won't. :rolleyes:

[straycat]

I have just PMd GAG my email that I sent to Ceroc telling them of my decision to leave,

You know - I'd always thought getting sacked by Ceroc was quite a hip and trendy thing to do. You're obviously just not as cool as I thought ;)

[TheTramp]

I'd love to know what GAG's personal issue is with me, I have asked him privately to let me know, but he won't. :rolleyes:

You think that he has one?

Personally, I think that it's just that you won't let things go, and you keep responding to him, giving him ammunition for him to keep attacking you. If you just stopped rising to the bait, it'd probably be a lot easier for you!

[TheTramp]

You know - I'd always thought getting sacked by Ceroc was quite a hip and trendy thing to do. You're obviously just not as cool as I thought ;)

Not as good as being banned though eh! :rolleyes:

[Gus]

Not as good as being banned though eh! :rolleyes:Depends if you deserved it or not.

[scotttwin]

Given this thread is about my old mate, I thought it might interest everyone to know that I went to ISH last night and the place was rammed - I have never seen it so busy - in fact far too busy. Contrary to SB's private comments to his mates that it would collapse after he left.

Can Ceroc London please give us two nights at this venue, and get some more fans in.

Scott

[David Bailey]

Given this thread is about my old mate, I thought it might interest everyone to know that I went to ISH last night and the place was rammed - I have never seen it so busy - in fact far too busy.
Is this an October thing? Lots of places seem quite busy at the moment...

[straycat]

Not as good as being banned though eh! :rolleyes:

Feh. That used to be easy. Was a time anyone could manage that (I know someone who got banned for having a small birthday party that coincided with a Ceroc social) :waycool:

Of course - 'tis all different these days :flower:

[straycat]

...and the place was rammed...

:what: :eek: :really: :angry:

Is dancing in London becoming that dangerous these days???
Please tell me no-one was hurt... :whistle:

[Get a grip]

You think that he has one?

Personally, I think that it's just that you won't let things go, and you keep responding to him, giving him ammunition for him to keep attacking you. If you just stopped rising to the bait, it'd probably be a lot easier for you!

And there you have it - the man with big trousers speak with heap big common sense..

Anyway, based on one of my previous threads TT said that she was going to ignore all my future posts.

Maybe she should follow her own advice?

[Minnie M]

I'd love to know what GAG's personal issue is with me, I have asked him privately to let me know, but he won't. :rolleyes:
If GaG a fella :confused: this vendetta GaG has with Tiggs sounds very female to me :whistle: or maybe he's a girlie or a Laydeeeee :whistle:

[TheTramp]

Of course, we could also get someone else continuing the argument on TT's behalf.

Which would probably be just as bad.... :whistle:

[Minnie M]

Of course, we could also get someone else continuing the argument on TT's behalf.

Which would probably be just as bad.... :whistle:
:tears:

[fletch]

If GaG a fella :confused: this vendetta GaG has with Tiggs sounds very female to me :whistle: or maybe he's a girlie or a Laydeeeee :whistle:

He could be a ladette. :na:

[JamesGeary]

So ... back on thread .... any reports from the openning night? At least (so far) ther's not been the usual claims to be teaching something new/innovative/fusion/better than anyone else ..... we get that all the time up here :wink: Whats hus USP? What will be the key to pulling in the customers (away from Ceroc(tm) venues?) ?

Rebel Roc never did anything different or unusual, and they were very successful.

[cerebus636]

Yes,I know what that one thing was....YOU'RE SACKED!

Get a Grip, you need to sort your attitude out and calm it down. I've only been on this forum a day and it's pretty obvious you are in two places at once on this forum playing good cop, bad cop.

Amanda (if it is the Amanda I think it is) was always more into Lindy and Ceroc was more of a side-line anyway. Even if she was sacked, why would she care and why would you? Why would anyone else?

As for the sheer amount of vitriol you have come out with about Simon (is SB the accepted short-hand?), I can't believe one guy trying to make a buck can **** you off soooooo much. Try valium perhaps?

In the one or two classes I ever did at an SB venue, my impression was that he is to Ceroc in the '00s that what Mike Ellard was in the 90's. They were both The Guy that the organisation didn't want but had to keep as they were universally popular and brought in the punters and therefore the cash.

Ceroc pissed off Mike and have obviously pissed off Simon. The difference was that I believe Mike was so closely intertwined contractually with Ceroc that he could never actually start up his proposed JiveSalsa (http://amail.co.uk/cgi-bin/adetails.pl?domain=jivesalsa.co.uk&brand=amail shows that Mike Ellard still owns the domain and that it was registered in 1999).

Now this http://web.archive.org/web/20010710083642/http://www.jivesalsa.co.uk/ shows that Mike was coupling the Ceroc brand with the words Jive and Salsa as early as 2001, but I know he was doing this at the Moonglow when it launched in 2000 (a bit odd don't you think?). The site was finally taken down in early 2005. The text on the site had barely chaned since it went online.

So tell me, if Mike wasn't thinking of breaking away from Ceroc and setting up his own venture in 1999 (and trying to entice the Salsa market at the same time), why did he register the site and promote the Moonglow under the JiveSalsa banner? Mike was fortunate to be in a position to buy Ceroc and sort out all his problems. In doing so, he did us all a favour. But I'm sure you already know about this don't you?

So my point is this, if it is okay for Mike to almost setup outside of Ceroc and use a Ceroc venue (admittedly his own franchised venue) to promote his brand that is so obviously not Ceroc, then why is it so bad that SB decided to setup his own venture and NOT use a Ceroc venue to promote his idea?

Is it because you actually see a central venue, in an awsome location, catering to a younger, hipper crowd (actually the same demographic as in the mid-90's that Mike was soooo successful at attracting) as a threat to the mothership that is Ceroc?

I don't think the SB's Jive Nation it is a threat at all to Ceroc, quite the opposite.

It's on a Monday night, so only going up against a few small Ceroc venues and none of the big nights. If it works it will attract new blood into the MJ scene that don't have wrinkles or beer bellies. These newbies will be enthused by Simons teaching and probably be loyal to the Hippodrome but like all newbies will want more and then seek out Ceroc venues on other nights. If anything, this will increase the number of new people coming into Ceroc venues. This is so obvious I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned before.

Perhaps SB is a cynical yet visionary manipulator? He might well be the devil incarnate for all I know, his methods and tactics may or may not be underhand, but what I do know is that I got a free night out on Friday, didn't give The Fugitive (that would be SB ;-) my email address, had a great time, danced a bit, chatted up a couple of girls - who had never danced before - and got a date for this weekend from it. Damn good night if you ask me ;-)

[Get a grip]

Amanda (if it is the Amanda I think it is) was always more into Lindy and Ceroc was more of a side-line anyway. Even if she was sacked, why would she care and why would you? Why would anyone else?


Well, if she makes a statement that says she left of her own accord rather than the fact she was sacked then that puts a completely different perspective on her post and completely undermines her position. It also has an impact on her credibility. Don't ya think that's important?


As for the sheer amount of vitriol you have come out with about Simon (is SB the accepted short-hand?), I can't believe one guy trying to make a buck can **** you off soooooo much. Try valium perhaps?

In case you haven't noticed, my job on this forum (self appointed obviously) is to cut through all the BS and loveydoveyness and tell it like it is. SOB has been underhand, dishonest and manipulative and I really have a problem with people saying that's ok and good luck to him. (By the way Valium doesn't work only Night Nurse does...)



Ceroc pissed off Mike and have obviously pissed off Simon. The difference was that I believe Mike was so closely intertwined contractually with Ceroc that he could never actually start up his proposed JiveSalsa (http://amail.co.uk/cgi-bin/adetails.pl?domain=jivesalsa.co.uk&brand=amail shows that Mike Ellard still owns the domain and that it was registered in 1999).

Now this http://web.archive.org/web/20010710083642/http://www.jivesalsa.co.uk/ shows that Mike was coupling the Ceroc brand with the words Jive and Salsa as early as 2001, but I know he was doing this at the Moonglow when it launched in 2000 (a bit odd don't you think?). The site was finally taken down in early 2005. The text on the site had barely chaned since it went online.

So tell me, if Mike wasn't thinking of breaking away from Ceroc and setting up his own venture in 1999 (and trying to entice the Salsa market at the same time), why did he register the site and promote the Moonglow under the JiveSalsa banner? Mike was fortunate to be in a position to buy Ceroc and sort out all his problems. In doing so, he did us all a favour. But I'm sure you already know about this don't you?

I obviously can't speak for Mike, but I know that he has always preferred to think of Ceroc as more like Salsa than jive - which in most peoples minds is something their grandparents do at a wedding dance. I guess on this basis there is nothing wrong in calling his franchise whatever he likes, especially if he believed it would bring younger more attractive (!) people into the Ceroc network.


So my point is this, if it is okay for Mike to almost setup outside of Ceroc and use a Ceroc venue (admittedly his own franchised venue) to promote his brand that is so obviously not Ceroc, then why is it so bad that SB decided to setup his own venture and NOT use a Ceroc venue to promote his idea?

You are of course making a massive assumption in that owning the name jivesalsa meant that Mike was going to (almost...) set up in competition with Ceroc - and that's all your argument is based on, pretty tenuous don't you think? You may be right for all I know but there are loads of other explanations and ultimately it didn't happen and now Mike owns Ceroc, so we'll never know will we?


Is it because you actually see a central venue, in an awsome location, catering to a younger, hipper crowd (actually the same demographic as in the mid-90's that Mike was soooo successful at attracting) as a threat to the mothership that is Ceroc?

I don't think the SB's Jive Nation it is a threat at all to Ceroc, quite the opposite.

It's on a Monday night, so only going up against a few small Ceroc venues and none of the big nights. If it works it will attract new blood into the MJ scene that don't have wrinkles or beer bellies. These newbies will be enthused by Simons teaching and probably be loyal to the Hippodrome but like all newbies will want more and then seek out Ceroc venues on other nights. If anything, this will increase the number of new people coming into Ceroc venues. This is so obvious I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned before.

If you actually read the thread what you'll see is that most people including myself don't see Jivenation as a threat to Ceroc - and most people, again including myself, welcome the idea of competition and the additional choice this gives. What I'm personally opposed to, as mentioned over and over again, is how it was done and what this says about the man.


Perhaps SB is a cynical yet visionary manipulator? He might well be the devil incarnate for all I know, his methods and tactics may or may not be underhand, but what I do know is that I got a free night out on Friday, didn't give The Fugitive (that would be SB ;-) my email address, had a great time, danced a bit, chatted up a couple of girls - who had never danced before - and got a date for this weekend from it. Damn good night if you ask me ;-)

I'm glad you had a great night and that you managed to pull - what happens though when they start to learn to dance and realize that you're actually crap at it?:wink:

I also had a great night, got very drunk and vomited over Simon's waistcoat - I don't think anyone noticed though....

[El Salsero Gringo]

Ceroc pissed off Mike and have obviously pissed off Simon. The difference was that I believe Mike was so closely intertwined contractually with Ceroc that he could never actually start up his proposed JiveSalsa (http://amail.co.uk/cgi-bin/adetails.pl?domain=jivesalsa.co.uk&brand=amail shows that Mike Ellard still owns the domain and that it was registered in 1999).

Now this http://web.archive.org/web/20010710083642/http://www.jivesalsa.co.uk/ shows that Mike was coupling the Ceroc brand with the words Jive and Salsa as early as 2001, but I know he was doing this at the Moonglow when it launched in 2000 (a bit odd don't you think?). The site was finally taken down in early 2005. The text on the site had barely chaned since it went online.

So tell me, if Mike wasn't thinking of breaking away from Ceroc and setting up his own venture in 1999 (and trying to entice the Salsa market at the same time), why did he register the site and promote the Moonglow under the JiveSalsa banner? Mike was fortunate to be in a position to buy Ceroc and sort out all his problems. In doing so, he did us all a favour. But I'm sure you already know about this don't you?I don't think that's any evidence at all for what may or may not have been in Mike Ellard's mind. Is the URL all that you're basing your supposition on? Everyone (by which I mean my friends and I, long before I had any association with Ceroc) knew that the website for the Ashtons (et al.) Ceroc franchise was www.jivesalsa.co.uk (http://www.jivesalsa.co.uk), for years and years. It was just another annoying different url to remember if you danced in or around north London, along with www.cerocmetro.co.uk (http://www.cerocmetro.co.uk).

[TiggsTours]

I don't think that's any evidence at all for what may or may not have been in Mike Ellard's mind. Is the URL all that you're basing your supposition on? Everyone (by which I mean my friends and I, long before I had any association with Ceroc) knew that the website for the Ashtons (et al.) Ceroc franchise was www.jivesalsa.co.uk (http://www.jivesalsa.co.uk), for years and years. It was just another annoying different url to remember if you danced in or around north London, along with www.cerocmetro.co.uk (http://www.cerocmetro.co.uk).

Mike did also have plenty of ventures under the JiveSalsa banner that had nothing at all to do with Ceroc, Dance & Ski, Strictly Ballroom, probably others.

[Minnie M]

.......... Strictly Ballroom..........
:respect: :clap: :worthy: :yeah:
way before its time - bring it back :yeah:

[Cruella]

With all the debate going on the other thread about the new Vibe night at Ealing, run by Simon and Franco, it got me rereading this thread. It's nice that some predictions were wrong.

The venture is doomed to failure.



Like everyone else I think it's admirable to encourage younger dancers into the partner dance format - and the idea of trying to appeal to the club dancer makes sense. But it just can't work..


I really don't think Ceroc are bothered about SOB as they have a tried and tested formula and it works very effectively. If Simon wants to try and break a new market more fool he. If it works I guess Ceroc will look at it more closely and could easily put him out of business if they wanted to. If it doesn't then hey, guess what? It's cost Ceroc nothing to find out that it was a crap idea.

I don't think SOB realizes that he is doing some very valuable R&D for Ceroc at his own expense - more rope anyone? This makes Cerocs ethics look pretty bad! I bet Ceroc are glad that GAG isn't their mouthpiece! :what:


Hipsters failed for one very simple reason - it wasn't a venue that catered for beginners. Any venue that just relies on pulling established dancers from other venues will eventually fail (if run on a weekly basis) as people get bored. I wonder if GAG (if he was still around) would think the same about monthly venues like Utopia.

[dave the scaffolder]

Oh I missed the party, (did not get an invite, gutted am I ), and now a no holds barred fight with gun play and I have missed all of it as well.

I must be getting mature and grown up in my old age.

I have met SB on a number of occasions and found his classes bloody marvellous.

DTS Dave XXX XXX

[stewart38]

Oh I missed the party, (did not get an invite, gutted am I ), and now a no holds barred fight with gun play and I have missed all of it as well.

I must be getting mature and grown up in my old age.

I have met SB on a number of occasions and found his classes bloody marvellous.

DTS Dave XXX XXX

I couldn’t get a ticket and there was people moaning about this free event

Reminds me I miss old ESG and Tigg Tours now was she SACKED or not :whistle:

To see SB in action and his sheer enthusiasm does it for me , respect to the guy and all his future endeavors :worthy:

[dave the scaffolder]

I couldn’t get a ticket and there was people moaning about this free event

Reminds me I miss old ESG and Tigg Tours now was she SACKED or not :whistle:

To see SB in action and his sheer enthusiasm does it for me , respect to the guy and all his future endeavors :worthy:

Now why couldnt I have put it as clear as that.

Kudos to Stewart38, you big hunk of manhood you.

DTS Dave XXX XX

[CJ]

I wonder if GAG (if he was still around) would think the same about monthly venues like Utopia.

U're going down a bit of a rocky road there, Cru, asking a question like that...

[fletch]

U're going down a bit of a rocky road there, Cru, asking a question like that...



:rofl:

what you tring to say CJ :na:

[Dreadful Scathe]

U're going down a bit of a rocky road there, Cru, asking a question like that...
is anyone actually in any doubt that GaG is Rocky :confused: ? Same MO and typing ...er..style :)

[Rocky]

is anyone actually in any doubt that GaG is Rocky :confused: ? Same MO and typing ...er..style :)

:rofl: Thank you DS, and actually having read this thread I'm very flattered. The fact that you think I might be GaG of course means very little, because I don't think that 'anyone actually is any doubt that' you're a bit of a fool - the fact that you may not be is not apparent but may, none the less, be true..

If you think that's a GaG like response, then what can I say... Umm..yippee! :D

[Dreadful Scathe]

:rofl: Thank you DS, and actually having read this thread I'm very flattered.

...see, same style :D

...or at the very least a GaG fanboy :)

[Martin]

This one took ages to read.

I took the time as I know Simon, and Jive Nation is still around.

At least he did not anounce his new venue in a class he was teaching at for another dance company... which Gus has quoted, happened some time ago and which also happened more recently.. now that is fully sick :angry:

If you get a free dance night and Simon wants to anounce that there will be a new club happening, OK, at least you have a free dance and you can ignore the "adverts".

OK, he did some teaching for Ceroc in the UK, BUT he was not UK trained and was an established teacher already... So he built up Ceroc classes, did his job as a teacher. ---- Say "thank you" :worthy:

He was a well respected teacher in Aussie... maybe stuck in a time warp, doof doof Aussie a few years ago music state, I do not know if he has changed that of late...(I hope he has). He has an MBA which he worked hard to get, so do not discount his business brain.

I do not know of his thinking about bringing Suzie on board, as IMHO (do not sue me) she was the least respected teacher in Aussie, one to avoid... :what: Just my own opinion and that of all the people I talk to... :blush:

It seems he is still around and doing stuff, so all power to him, I do not see that Ceroc UK should have any problem with this. He came in, he built up your classes, he then went independant.

It happens, and I wish him all the best. :cheers:

[Martin]

Rebel Roc never did anything different or unusual, and they were very successful.

Not true - In the early days, they busked every single weekend in the local shopping centre (EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND)... on the down side, they chucked leaflets on all the cars outside my venue.... for which they got a roasting...

So yes, they were different and unusual.... they put a LOT of effort in... more than any dance company I know.

Success was gained from a lot of hard work. :respect:

[Dreadful Scathe]

I have no idea who Simon Borland is, he sounds business minded to me. Probably very similar to Mike Ellard. Who I also don't know. :)

shake shake tinkle tinkle

[Chef]

Not true - In the early days, they busked every single weekend in the local shopping centre (EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND)... on the down side, they chucked leaflets on all the cars outside my venue.... for which they got a roasting...

So yes, they were different and unusual.... they put a LOT of effort in... more than any dance company I know.

Success was gained from a lot of hard work. :respect:

Very true - I went on quite a few of those busks in the early days of my dancing. Katy always took her dancers out for coffee and cakes afterwards. She set up the Rebel Yell one day event in Woking where I first saw Robert Cordoba and Deborah (and WCS - wow) and took on Franco at Camber on a Jive weekender years before weekenders were a twinkle in Cerocs eyes. Katy was not afraind of putting in the work.

I do remember her going ballistic when another organisation put leaflets on all the cars in the car park at one of her venues and her saying that it was "definately not on". So if she went off and did it to someone else either her attitude had changed at some point or she was out for revenge.

She did the "dirty dancing" style of classes and workshops years ahead of other organisations - her sense of humour was mostly of the saucy seaside post card variety anyway.

Rebel Roc and Katy did do things that were different and unusual, and often years ahead of many others. She also worked hard to grow her business. I say this as someone who has not connection with Katy other than I used to dance at some of the venues that she ran and I didn't always agree with her.

[Martin]

I do remember her going ballistic when another organisation put leaflets on all the cars in the car park at one of her venues and her saying that it was "definately not on". So if she went off and did it to someone else either her attitude had changed at some point or she was out for revenge.



Not revenge to me, as I never did that to her.

I was supprised that there was a need to do it to me, as she worked hard, with her business partner, to grow her venues.

I thought that was good, and I was suportive, until, I got leafletted.

[Chef]

Not revenge to me, as I never did that to her.

I was supprised that there was a need to do it to me, as she worked hard, with her business partner, to grow her venues.

I thought that was good, and I was suportive, until, I got leafletted.

I wonder why her attitude to this whole business of leafletting other peoples car parks changed. She was so furious when it was done to her.

I just see these things as a normal punter with no allegence to any particular organisation. All the things I hear about happening between various organisations makes me glad that I have no involvement in the business aspect and gives me an understanding as to how things can get so crazy sometimes.