Ceroc the mongrel

[Jayne]

Ceroc is not "proper" dancing as it's a mongrel. It lacks its own ethos and merely steals from other dances. As a consequence ceroc is only a transient dance form, is of little value and will soon be replaced by more disciplined dances.

Discuss.

J :nice:

[Dance Demon]

Ohhh Jane !!!:sick: this is very much like a thread that was posted several months ago, and lasted forever.......do you realise the monster you are creating ? :(

However... if you look at all the different styles of partner dancing, including Salsa, you will see that many of the basic moves are very similar, but done to different tempo's and footwork....
As regards having little value, and being replaced by other dance forms, i have tried other dance styles, including lindy hop, west Coast Swing, Glasgow jive, and enjoy them all, but still dance more Ceroc than anything else. It's a "horses for courses" thing . All forms of dance are "proper" dancing, depending how far you want to take them. Some of the advanced dancers I saw at Blackpool, were excellent, and I think they might take issue with anyone suggesting that they were not "proper dancers"
The important thing is that people are dancing, regardless of style...and the more dancers the better(IMO):waycool:

[Dave Hancock]

Originally posted by Jayne
It lacks its own ethos and merely steals from other dances.

You could say this off virtually any activity, I believe it is called evolution.

Also agree with DD's comments re. proper dancing, what may we ask do you consider proper dancing to be and surely this purely a matter of opinion

[CJ]

If, in the future, we do need to hear your opinion, I'll tell you it.

In the meantime, would it not be better that you stick to what you do best?:wink:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Jayne
Ceroc is not "proper" dancing as it's a mongrel. It lacks its own ethos and merely steals from other dances. As a consequence ceroc is only a transient dance form, is of little value and will soon be replaced by more disciplined dances.
To perpetuate the ongoing discussion...:rolleyes:

I'm with DD: any dancing is "Proper dancing". {...well, perhaps with the exception of Morris dancing: that's just silly...}
Is a "Mongrel" not a dog in it's own right? Man-kind has been playing with 'genetics' for decades; trying to add bits from x and y to create a better z. The 'stealing' of other bits of dance is just picking the chocolate chips out of the cookie to make a new one.
The question posted before was along the lines of "is an absence of one discernable style a style in it's own right?"

I take issue with the view that Ceroc is "only" a transient dance form; it is a constantly evolving dance form {as Dave said}; not set in stone or restricted by rules that confine other dance forms and have limited expression. These antiquated dances could never replace one that moves with the times. :waycool:

The "of little value" statement is more an opinion than anything else, and I could apply the same statement to anything with equal validity.


:na:

[Gadget]

{to play DAdvocate...}

Originally posted by Dance Demon
However... if you look at all the different styles of partner dancing, including Salsa, you will see that many of the basic moves are very similar, but done to different tempo's and footwork....
But each is individual and has set footwork and styling points that define it as that dance - Ceroc {dance} has none of that; no structure or form to the dance that can set it as a style in it's self: All the stylish moves have been stolen from these other dances.


As regards having little value, and being replaced by other dance forms, i have tried other dance styles, including lindy hop, west Coast Swing, Glasgow jive, and enjoy them all, but still dance more Ceroc than anything else. It's a "horses for courses" thing .
But look at how many other forms of dance there are; while Ceroc might be a good introduction to dance, it is only a transition for most 'proper' dancers to find the 'proper' dance style (among the mish-mash) that suits them and move away to it. As they gain more popularity, people will just skip the introduction 'Ceroc' stage and go to the proper dance styles instead - it will just fade away.

All forms of dance are "proper" dancing, depending how far you want to take them. Some of the advanced dancers I saw at Blackpool, were excellent, and I think they might take issue with anyone suggesting that they were not "proper dancers"
The important thing is that people are dancing, regardless of style...and the more dancers the better(IMO):waycool:
I agree; they would be advanced Dancers, but not necissaraly advanced Ceroc-ers; Dance is expression, and whatever style they chose to compete in, they have taken all they have learned from all the distinct styles and made it their own - the fact that Ceroc tries to emulate them is more a compliment to the dancers than a definition of Ceroc.

{to quote ODA: "Above views do not necissaraly reflect the poster's" :D}

[Dance Demon]

Aye..OK Gadget:rolleyes:
Is all that not just a long winded way of saying what Jayne originally posted?:confused:

[Heather]

:sick: ........also mis-spelt and ungrammatic version of what Jayne said!!!!! Really Gadget, you must ask someone for a dictionary as a useful birthday gift!!!!

Heather,
:hug:

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Jayne
Ceroc is not "proper" dancing as it's a mongrel. It lacks its own ethos and merely steals from other dances. As a consequence ceroc is only a transient dance form, is of little value and will soon be replaced by more disciplined dances.

OK I admit it - I don't go to Ceroc because I think it's necessarily the greatest or purest form of dancing, or because it will turn me into some sort of wonderful dancer.

I go because it's a lot of fun & I leave with a smile on my face. I'm not sure that I need another reason...

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by DavidY
I go because it's a lot of fun & I leave with a smile on my face. I'm not sure that I need another reason...

Go David! :D :D I'm with you kid!:hug:

[Gus]

AS the real ODA I feel compelled to add my usual contentious comments to this debate.....

Dancing at Ceroc ... WHO?? The vast majority of people on a ceroc dancfloor can't dance, they merely execute a series of moves which occaisionaly happens to co-incide with the music. Don't believe me??? ... just watch a video of an average dance night and see the overwhelming truth.

Of course there is an alternative view (:wink: ) which says that many people have flocked to Ceroc in the realisation that it is a pastime that gives them an edge on life, fun and fullfillment like no other and if its a question of balancing that gift against the question of "is it dance or not" ...... who cares?

PS ... never a "mongrel" ... more of a thoroughbred!

[gdeverill]

Originally posted by Gus
AS the real ODA
PS ... never a "mongrel" ... more of a thoroughbred!

Hi Gus (and most distinguished Scotland Forum members) Graham from Oz here. I know some of you have 'opinions' about 'southerners' but hope a few extra degrees of latitude might allow you to treat me gently. I will deny 'knowing' Gus if that will help! Have been sidelining for a while but now feel "a need" ... you know what it was like on your first post too, one hopes. If this goes in the wrong box, sorry, just have sympathy, it's my first time :-)

Mongrel vs. Thoroughbread eh Gus? I think this quote has more "potential" than the original post ... it certainly has plenty of opportunity. At least both have 4 legs .. it's a start. I'm getting this real feeling that Ceroc is more of a 'Show Pony' ... any other offers?

Also, I just pick up on "transient" in the original post. I think Ceroc proper started 1980. Has anyone got a feel what the normal length of "transient" is these days?

[Wendy]

When you do moves which involve looking at the audience and not at your partner, that is "proper" dancing to me . No-one can tell what's happening between the two of us (well they might have an idea !) it can't be compared, it can't be judged, it can only be felt, experienced.... **** proper dancing....**** competitions......oops was that a bit harsh ??? Never did get "proper" !!! That's why I love CEROC...I can just be me. Me, a partner and the music.....no rules.... no expectations... but lots of pleasant surprises....

Wxxx

[CJ]

Is the Ceroc forum really prepared for the fact there is two of you?!?!?!?!?!?:what:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Is the Ceroc forum really prepared for the fact there is two of you?!?!?!?!?!?:what: I'm sure the forum can cope with both of us... well for a while... if we both behave now and again and get people to laugh a little ....everyone likes to laugh at the clown getting the pie in his face, no ??? Lenny Bruce was a funny guy.....

Wxxx

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Is all that not just a long winded way of saying what Jayne originally posted?:confused:
I was {trying} to counter your arguments with 'valid' arguments from the origional post.

Heather: I do have a dictionary - my desk would be wonkey without it :wink:


Originally posted by the real ODA, Gus
Dancing at Ceroc ... WHO?? The vast majority of people on a ceroc dancfloor can't dance, they merely execute a series of moves which occaisionaly happens to co-incide with the music. Don't believe me??? ... just watch a video of an average dance night and see the overwhelming truth.
Nice to see you back :)

The same could be true of any dancefloor, especially one where beginners and 'novices' are encouraged onto the dance floor at every opportunity.
How can you {as a dancer on the floor} tell if you are not matching moves to the music? I know experianced dancers can judge but what are the key signs? If you and your partner are dancing together, to the same bit of the song, then what more is there?


Of course there is an alternative view which says that many people have flocked to Ceroc in the realisation that it is a pastime that gives them an edge on life, fun and fullfillment like no other and if its a question of balancing that gift against the question of "is it dance or not" ...... who cares?
I care about dancing. I don't care about other's views on if it is a 'proper' dance or not: I don't think there is an argument to say that it's not dance...

Dance: an amusement, in which the movements of the persons are regulated by art, in figures and in accord with music
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
{see Heather! :na::D }

[Gus]

Originally posted by Gadget
I care about dancing. I don't care about other's views on if it is a 'proper' dance or not: ....I don't think there is an argument to say that it's not dance...

"No argument to say its not a dance??" .... methinks that is a challenge I must take up:grin:

Most people when questioned about dance may say something involving 'moving in time to the music' ..... if many Cerocers have the ability to do move without heed to the music does that make them dancers or just people moving around with co-incidental music playing around them?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by DavidY
OK I admit it - I don't go to Ceroc because I think it's necessarily the greatest or purest form of dancing, or because it will turn me into some sort of wonderful dancer...


Ceroc is the greatest form of dancing. Ceroc is the purest form of dancing. Ceroc teachers are your friends. You will leave your wallets on the way out. You will be back next week.

:)

[PeterL]

Most people when questioned about dance may say something involving 'moving in time to the music' ..... if many Cerocers have the ability to do move without heed to the music does that make them dancers or just people moving around with co-incidental music playing around them?


you could say it makes them begginers, rythm comes with practice.

I have an indian friend who told me one of the hardest things when learning for him, was dancing to the rythm and not the words, he told me most indian dancing is movement to the words.
So ''moving in time to the music' would not be a good description for the dancing where he is from. :cheers:

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gus
"No argument to say its not a dance??" .... methinks that is a challenge I must take up:grin:

Most people when questioned about dance may say something involving 'moving in time to the music' ..... if many Cerocers have the ability to do move without heed to the music does that make them dancers or just people moving around with co-incidental music playing around them? But that's a different argument - you're asserting (and I have to agree) that many practitioners of modern jive cannot execute it in the intended manner. An argument that it is not a dance form at all would have to establish that it was not possible for anyone to 'move in time to the music'. Otherwise you could argue that waltz is not a dance, since there are clearly lots of people who get on the dancefloor at weddings etc who can't do it (the steps or the timing).

The original question is flawed. Whether or not Rover is a mongrel, he is still a dog. Likewise, modern jive is clearly a dance (IMO) and the question is whether it is a distinct "pedigree" style rather than a random mixture of other identifiable styles. Following the kennel club analogy a little longer, I believe that what is required is that there needs to be a set of specific distinguishing features which are present throughout the breed. The fact that modern jive does not have prescribed footwork, and that there is an almost infinite variety of different body positions, holds, arm movements etc possible mean that the only thing I can think of which would be a constant would be the timing. I believe that in fact this is clearly defined and distinct. Is this enough to qualify as a pedigree style?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Graham
the only thing I can think of which would be a constant would be the timing. I believe that in fact this is clearly defined and distinct. Is this enough to qualify as a pedigree style? Yes

[Jayne]

Originally posted by DavidB
Yes

Do no other dances follow the same timing as ceroc? There must be some and if there are you're just saying that ceroc and AN Other dance are the same pedigree.

J :wink:

[horsey_dude]

You have just explained what is so great about ceroc.... If you look at other so called "proper" partner dances every competitor should look the same with the best dancer putting their foot down or arm out in the same way that everyone has been doing for years. Ceroc is so cool because two great couples doing the same moves can look completely different and still be doing ceroc. It is eclectic! You can steal moves from anywhere....



Originally posted by Jayne
Ceroc is not "proper" dancing as it's a mongrel. It lacks its own ethos and merely steals from other dances. As a consequence ceroc is only a transient dance form, is of little value and will soon be replaced by more disciplined dances.

Discuss.

J :nice:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
AS the real ODA I feel compelled to add my usual contentious comments to this debate.....

Dancing at Ceroc ... WHO?? The vast majority of people on a ceroc dancfloor can't dance, they merely execute a series of moves which occaisionaly happens to co-incide with the music. Wow Gus... Welcome back (I think :wink: )

Of course Ceroc is a dance, and whether you can define it by the beat, its moves, or philosophy, is irrelevant... As it stands, thousands of people dance Ceroc every week (many more if you include all the Modern Jive variations). All of them know exactly that what they are doing is a recognizable dance and as David Y says, are having a ball at the same time.

I find it very sad (ODA notwithstanding) that when you look at a Ceroc dance floor, to quote you: "The vast majority of people on a ceroc dancfloor can't dance" :sad:
When I look at any Ceroc dance floor, I see people so happy, it makes my heart swell with pride and happiness for all of them!

Ceroc is the dance that makes you enjoy learning to dance, the dance that teaches you to have fun to any music and introduces you to dance floor communication with a partner, without having to worry about your feet!
Ceroc is way more than all the other dances put together :nice:

The fact that it has aspects 'borrowed' from other dance forms is, as HorseyDude says, its greatest strength, and the reason why so many people who have learnt other styles, still go to Ceroc nights, and revert to the more flexible / versatile dance...

I started my dancing life with Glasgow Jive, and was truly hooked on it, as it is indeed a brilliant dance, but in truth, I could not go back to the arbitrary limitations it puts on your dancing... Ceroc gives me the freedom to dance to anything (literally), especially as I have very varied musical tastes... I would not want to dance a whole night to Salsa music (however good the DJ), or even a whole night of Swing music...

Franck.

[Twinkle Toes]

Originally posted by Franck

When I look at any Ceroc dance floor, I see people so happy, it makes my heart swell with pride and happiness for all of them!

Ceroc is the dance that makes you enjoy learning to dance, the dance that teaches you to have fun to any music and introduces you to dance floor communication with a partner, without having to worry about your feet!
Ceroc is way more than all the other dances put together.Well said Franck, my sentiments entirely.

TT

:hug: :hug:

[horsey_dude]

So.... What is it that she does best?


Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
If, in the future, we do need to hear your opinion, I'll tell you it.

In the meantime, would it not be better that you stick to what you do best?:wink:

[Jayne]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
So.... What is it that she does best?

So little time HD.... :wink: :wink:

J :devil:

[TheTramp]

Jayne....

Does that mean that whatever it is that you do best (which we still haven't found out), you also do really quickly???? :na: :hug:

Steve

[Jayne]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Jayne....

Does that mean that whatever it is that you do best (which we still haven't found out), you also do really quickly???? :na: :hug:

Steve

errrm that wasn't the way I was thinking...

..but let's get back on thread. Ceroc's a mongrel, cross bred from other dances and therefore lacks it's own definition.

J :wink:

PS thought of another topic to bring up - but there are a few good ones around at the moment so I'll save it till later...

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Jayne
thought of another topic to bring up - but there are a few good ones around at the moment so I'll save it till later... Jayne D - the girl who put tease in Malteasers !!! :wink: You could run a workshop on this JD !!!!

Wxxx

[Lou]

Originally posted by Jayne
..but let's get back on thread. Ceroc's a mongrel, cross bred from other dances Agreed! Except I'd use the term Modern Jive, of course :wink:
and therefore lacks it's own definition.Disagree - because of what DavidB& Graham said about its unique timing.

Is being a mongrel so bad? Mongrels tend to be hardier than pure-breeds! :nice:

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Lou


Is being a mongrel so bad? Mongrels tend to be hardier than pure-breeds! :nice:

And they are less temperamental..:wink:

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Lou

Is being a mongrel so bad? Mongrels tend to be hardier than pure-breeds! :nice:

and much more receptive to petting:D

[Emma]

Originally posted by Jayne
..but let's get back on thread. Ceroc's a mongrel, cross bred from other dances Surely all dances are to a greater or lesser degree cross-bred from other dances....? People learn a dance, add a little of something from somewhere else, teach that to their friends who add a little more and teach that to ther friends..and so on and so on and so on... and lo, a new dance develops.

[John S]

I've just come across this thread, must have missed it before.

Having reached a significant age without ever learning to dance a step of any "proper" (or improper) dance, I can only say that I am so chuffed that I found out about Ceroc (or Leroc or Modern Jive etc before anyone jumps on me). I can dance, and my only regret is that it took me so long to find out!

As Franck and others have stressed, the enjoyment and fulfilment that is evident on any Ceroc night on the faces of people (much like me) who reckoned they would never be able to "dance" far outweighs any precious arguments about whether or not what they/we are doing is pure/proper/pedigree or whatever.

And equally, go along to any Ceroc busk and ask anyone watching whether or not the buskers are dancing or not. You know the answer!

If Ceroc is a mongrel dance, so what? That's only insulting if you think pedigree means better. The trend in the world of pedigrees and shows (dog/cat/rabbit etc) is to go for ever more extreme and useless deviations from the norm - looks are everything, often at the expense of temperament, health and animal enjoyment, and to some extent that is also true of "proper" dances which lack the individual interpretation, improvisation and eclectic nature of Modern Jive, even if they can be technically superb and beautiful to watch (so I guess that maybe brings this thread into line with the one on "Intellect versus Emotion"???)

[Tiggerbabe]

Stands up to give John S a round of applause :hug: (in the absence of a suitable smiley this one will have to do!)

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sheena
Stands up to give John S a round of applause :hug: (in the absence of a suitable smiley this one will have to do!)

I'll second that. I haven't got a smiley "round of applause" either, but I can give him a girlie "hooray"

Well said John.

TT. x

[Jayne]

Originally posted by John S
If Ceroc is a mongrel dance, so what?[/i]

OK so I feel compelled to reply now.

The honest answer is I don't care if ceroc is a mongrel dance. Ceroc is great at getting people up onto the dance floor and I'm sure it's drop out rate must be far lower than some other forms of partner dance, like Ballroom for example. I also really like the way that moves can be brought into ceroc from other dances and styles - salsa, tango, hip hop, ballet to name a few... (My only regret is that I don't know what differentiates between these different styles, but that's a personal issue, not really one that I've got with ceroc. I guess I've just got "surgeon's syndrome"...) At the same time the reason why I went off Ballroom dancing is that it was tooooo hung up on the minor technicalities of the dance and style and at the end of the day I just want to get up there and enjoy myself - which comes back round to the discussion of "exclusive dancers" again.....

The reason why I started the thread was because one of the guys in the lab came out with the comment after listening to me talk about the cabaret routine. I thought that it might be an interesting topic to open up to you lovely people on the forum (especially given that Gus is being quiet we're kinda lacking on dance topics at the moment...). I thought it was a topic we could have some fun with....

Hope you enjoyed it & it maybe made you think.
J :hug:

[Siobhan (Forum Plant)]

So in summary- we're all saying ceroc is a mongrel, but that's not a bad thing?

Suits me Sir:cheers:

[MartinHarper]

Surely all dances are to a greater or lesser degree cross-bred from other dances....?

Lindy was cross-bred from Charleston, Fox Trot, Tap, and others, it seems, and it's still influenced by other dances now. I don't see that Ceroc is unique in being a mongrel dance.
What gets absorbed (for both Lindy and Ceroc) seems to be fairly superficial - it might look similar, but I reckon it loses a lot of the feel. No substitute for the real thing.

[Yogi_Bear]

Heather: I do have a dictionary - my desk would be wonkey without it :wink:



Obviously if you had it ON the desk and used it then the desk would be wonky....but the spelling would improve :whistle:

[Gadget]

Obviously if you had it ON the desk and used it then the desk would be wonky....but the spelling would improve :whistle:
Na- the keyboard moves ith every keystrole... see! :na: