Evil or instructive?

[David Bailey]

Inspired by:

If she's trying to lead/anticipate I will firstly mention it to her and explain that she shouldn't in case that is not the move the lead is intending, and if she carries on I will deliberately change the move to demonstrate the point (call me evil, but these things have to be learnt somehow and I'm a great believer in learning from your mistakes!:devil: )

This reminds me of something I used to do a lot a while back, which was to lead a lot of "anticipation traps" and "catcher-outers" when I felt that my partner was over-anticipating.

I've still kept some legacies from that time - for example, my love of the Straightjacket - but I don't do it so much now, either I'm lazier or more easy-going.

My question is: do people think that anticipation traps are good or bad things? Are they evil, or instructive?

[Double Trouble]

Inspired by:


This reminds me of something I used to do a lot a while back, which was to lead a lot of "anticipation traps" and "catcher-outers" when I felt that my partner was over-anticipating.

I've still kept some legacies from that time - for example, my love of the Straightjacket - but I don't do it so much now, either I'm lazier or more easy-going.

My question is: do people think that anticipation traps are good or bad things? Are they evil, or instructive?

Dancing should be a fluent and comfortable experience for all women. Personally I can't stand all that faffing around. I just want you to make me feel and look good. Looks clumsy if you try and trick us.

[Feelingpink]

Instructive (are you sure you didn't want this to be a poll? :devil: ) Except in the case of a guy doing a kind of bump & grind which goes on forever, in which case (a). it's evil and (b). I'll lead myself out of it - that's not anticipating, but I'm not about to start feeling like a part of a top-shelf magazine.

[Caro]

Instructive - best way to realise you are indeed anticipating and best incentive to try and get that fixed (never nice when a move goes wrong and you know it's because you've anticipated :blush: - although some might never realise that and blame their lead :devil: - in which case it becomes a vicious circle :eek: !)

Where's the poll :wink: :whistle: ?

[Caro]

Dancing should be a fluent and comfortable experience for all women. Personally I can't stand all that faffing around. I just want you to make me feel and look good.

question: how will you ever feel and look good if you are not able to follow properly? :confused: if you keep anticipating?

[Feelingpink]

Dancing should be a fluent and comfortable experience for all women. Personally I can't stand all that faffing around. I just want you to make me feel and look good. Looks clumsy if you try and trick us.So if a follower keeps anticipating moves, which means the leader cannot make the dance the musical and artistic experience it could be, what do you suggest they do? Anticipation can pretty much rule out any breaks and hesitations, which can feel & look so divine.

OK - Caro and I are now officially the same person.

[Double Trouble]

question: how will you ever feel and look good if you are not able to follow properly? :confused: if you keep anticipating?

Several ceroc teachers have told me that a good leader can make even a beginner look fantastic. It's not our fault, ever if it all goes wrong. (not my words just telling you what I have beed told)

[Caro]

Several ceroc teachers have told me that a good leader can make even a beginner look fantastic. It's not our fault, ever if it all goes wrong. (not my words just telling you what I have beed told)

lol... if I didn't know any better, I'd say you're looking for trouble :innocent: :rofl:

Of course you can make a beginner look fantastic... provided they follow :devil: . You can make up for anticipation mistakes as well to some extent, but as Feeling Pink said, there's a good chance to ruin your lead's attempts at phrasing the music.
Having said that, trying to lead complicated moves on a beginner just to see if 'they can follow' is IMO a sign that you are not that good a leader. A good leader should adapt to his follower and that's how they can make them look good. But the follower has to try to follow at least!

[David Bailey]

Several ceroc teachers have told me that a good leader can make even a beginner look fantastic. It's not our fault, ever if it all goes wrong. (not my words just telling you what I have beed told)
Well, if you go around listening to Ceroc teachers, what do you expect? :whistle:

For 99% of moves, yes, it's a very good rule of thumb to assume that anything goes wrong is the leader's fault. But "anticipation traps" are moves that the follower can mess up by, well, anticipating, rather than following. So these are exceptions to that rule.

For example, the Straightjacket move (ably demonstrated at Finchley a couple of weeks ago, if I say so meself) only requires the lady to stand still whilst the guy effectively walks around her. But if the lady anticipates a turn and tries to move, it'll go horribly wrong.

Another example is a cross-body lead - if the lady anticipates an underarm turn, just because that's what she's used to, she'll go completely the wrong way round and her footwork will be messed up.

P.S. I think I could have worked out that you and trouble are sisters even if I hadn't known... :innocent: :rofl:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Several ceroc teachers have told me that a good leader can make even a beginner look fantastic."Fantastic"? If you ever meet such a teacher - please introduce me!

[Double Trouble]

Well, if you go around listening to Ceroc teachers, what do you expect? :whistle:

For 99% of moves, yes, it's a very good rule of thumb to assume that anything goes wrong is the leader's fault. But "anticipation traps" are moves that the follower can mess up by, well, anticipating, rather than following. So these are exceptions to that rule.

For example, the Straightjacket move (ably demonstrated at Finchley a couple of weeks ago, if I say so meself) only requires the lady to stand still whilst the guy effectively walks around her. But if the lady anticipates a turn and tries to move, it'll go horribly wrong.

Another example is a cross-body lead - if the lady anticipates an underarm turn, just because that's what she's used to, she'll go completely the wrong way round and her footwork will be messed up.

P.S. I think I could have worked out that you and trouble are sisters even if I hadn't known... :innocent: :rofl:

FACE......BOVVERED?

[Gav]

I've still kept some legacies from that time - for example, my love of the Straightjacket - but I don't do it so much now, either I'm lazier or more easy-going.

My question is: do people think that anticipation traps are good or bad things? Are they evil, or instructive?

It depends who you're doing it to and why you're doing it doesn't it?

If the follower is a repeat offender and that's what it takes to make them learn, then great.

If you're just trying to catch anyone out (not that you'd ever do such a thing, of course :flower: ), EVIL!

[NZ Monkey]

If you’re doing it to someone who is likely to recognise what’s going on – instructive.

If you *know* they’re not going to pay any attention or realise that they’re anticipating – evil.

At the risk of sounding mean, some people really are just there to have a good time waving their arms around with a partner and some music and simply won’t take lessons like this on board. If you can pick out who they are then don’t even bother and start waving your arms around while having a good time yourself when you dance with them :grin:

Oh, and try to stop them hurting themselves or other folk on the dance floor at the same time

[Gav]

Another example is a cross-body lead - if the lady anticipates an underarm turn, just because that's what she's used to, she'll go completely the wrong way round and her footwork will be messed up.


You're not kidding! There's one that always anticipates an underarm turn from a right to right hold, and she has very stiff shoulders and elbows. When it happens she ends up wrong footed and I end up with a sore shoulder! Trouble is that she's been dancing for donkeys years and is very well respected. How does a relative beginner like me tell her it's her fault not mine!
I'll just hide from her for now!

[David Bailey]

If the follower is a repeat offender and that's what it takes to make them learn, then great.

If you're just trying to catch anyone out (not that you'd ever do such a thing, of course :flower: ), EVIL!
But what if you're doing it as a test? Or if you're trying to catch them out in order to teach them something? That's what I'm getting at.

The thing is, I realise I haven't actually done this sort of thing for a couple of years now, but I don't know why. Perhaps I've mellowed in my old age.


"Fantastic"? If you ever meet such a teacher - please introduce me!
Obviously, she meant proper teachers, not donkey-come-lately types. You know, the ones who have possession of the Book Of Jokes. The Ceroc Ten, in other words.

[Alice]

I'd say it depends a lot on the person you're trying to "trick"...

If it's someone who might not realise they're anticipating, I'd say it's a good idea- possibly preceded by a "you're anticipating, stop that cos look what I might have led instead:whistle: :devil: )

As has been said before, many times, not everyone is there to "learn"- some people might just rather "have fun" and not appreciate the tip.

I think we should tie those people to the stake and burn them...:devil:

[Double Trouble]

You're not kidding! There's one that always anticipates an underarm turn from a right to right hold, and she has very stiff shoulders and elbows. When it happens she ends up wrong footed and I end up with a sore shoulder! Trouble is that she's been dancing for donkeys years and is very well respected. How does a relative beginner like me tell her it's her fault not mine!
I'll just hide from her for now!

I would tell her straight. Some of the ones that have been dancing the longest need to go back to having beginners lessons. I'll mention some names if you like.

then watch steam coming out of my computer......!

love this site.

[alex]

For example, the Straightjacket move (ably demonstrated at Finchley a couple of weeks ago, if I say so meself) only requires the lady to stand still whilst the guy effectively walks around her. But if the lady anticipates a turn and tries to move, it'll go horribly wrong.so presumably the demonstrator showed how to lead the lady to stand still?

[ducasi]

"Fantastic"? If you ever meet such a teacher - please introduce me!
I'm always well-impressed when I watch Franck dancing with a beginner. :worthy:

[Gav]

I think we should tie those people to the stake and burn them...:devil:

Along with the bouncers, hand bouncers and stampers? I'll get the matches.


I would tell her straight. Some of the ones that have been dancing the longest need to go back to having beginners lessons. I'll mention some names if you like.

then watch steam coming out of my computer......!

love this site.

Sheesh, I'll add you and your sister to the list of ones to watch out for.

"there may be double-trouble ahead, but while there's moonlight and love and romance, let's face the music and dance!"

[David Bailey]

so presumably the demonstrator showed how to lead the lady to stand still?
Hey, it's not easy leading nothing, I'll have you know.

[NZ Monkey]

Several ceroc teachers have told me that a good leader can make even a beginner look fantastic. It's not our fault, ever if it all goes wrong. (not my words just telling you what I have beed told)Isn’t this one of those statements like ‘’strength isn’t important’’, ‘’it’s what’s inside that counts’’, and ‘’size doesn’t matter’’ that sounds good academically but doesn’t have much bearing on the way things work in real life? :devil:

I wonder how many of the teachers that say this actually can make a beginner look fantastic? :whistle:

[Lou]

My question is: do people think that anticipation traps are good or bad things? Are they evil, or instructive?

Well, it depends on why the Lady is anticipating. It could be instructive, or just pointless.

If she has no idea she's anticipating, and this draws her attention to the fact & allows the Leader to then lead her well for the remainder of the dance - then yes - Good thing.

However...

If she has no idea she's anticipating, and she continues to anticipate even after - it's up to the Leader to change his style and to let her do her own thing. She's never going to change.

OR...

She's being forced to anticipate, because the Leader is clueless, has a wishy-washy lead, no floorcraft (so leading her into the path of other dancers) or no musicality - then there's no point in him leading such a trap. In that case, the lady's anticipation should be seen as instructive. ;) (Or is she being evil?!)

[Double Trouble]

Along with the bouncers, hand bouncers and stampers? I'll get the matches.



Sheesh, I'll add you and your sister to the list of ones to watch out for.

"there may be double-trouble ahead, but while there's moonlight and love and romance, let's face the music and dance!"

thanks for the compliment.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Obviously, she meant proper teachers, not donkey-come-lately types. You know, the ones who have possession of the Book Of Jokes. The Ceroc Ten, in other words.Do you think any of the Ten would really stoop to become Ceroc teachers?

[Juju]

OR... She's being forced to anticipate, because the Leader is clueless, has a wishy-washy lead, no floorcraft (so leading her into the path of other dancers) or no musicality - then there's no point in him leading such a trap. In that case, the lady's anticipation should be seen as instructive. ;) (Or is she being evil?!)


Very good point. Even I've had to take charge of lesser mortals in this situation - and it's not often I meet someone who's worse than me. I do try to do it in a helpful way, encouraging them to move this way and not that, and so on.

I think the Anticipation Trap (didn't know it had a name) is instructive in small doses. I used to try to lead a lot as a beginner - and still do now every so often - it's hard not to! But anything more than small doses would just be bloody annoying and patronising.

P.S. Can I vote for Double Trouble as Queen of the Forum? Who do I mail?
:innocent:

[Franck]

Several ceroc teachers have told me that a good leader can make even a beginner look fantastic. It's not our fault, ever if it all goes wrong. (not my words just telling you what I have beed told)Isn’t this one of those statements like ‘’strength isn’t important’’, ‘’it’s what’s inside that counts’’, and ‘’size doesn’t matter’’ that sounds good academically but doesn’t have much bearing on the way things work in real life? :devil:

I wonder how many of the teachers that say this actually can make a beginner look fantastic? :whistle:Well, making them 'look' fantastic is probably not accurate, but making them 'feel' fantastic and look like they can follow every move easily and gracefully is certainly possible.

I used to believe in 'anticipation traps' but have since discovered that with proper continuous lead and connection, combined with accurate pre-leads then all anticipation vanishes from most followers. So while I don't think anticipating is a good thing, and until we can hone our leading skills to completely reassure our partner that she never feels the need to anticipate, anticipation traps might help both leaders and followers to improve, but ultimately, I would rather work on my connection and continuous lead to ensure my partner feels like she's following perfectly at all time.

Interestingly enough someone asked me last night at the start of a dance to tell her if she was ready to move up to Intermediate. We had a great dance, so I told her she would be fine, but then realised that every single dance I had was a great dance in the night, all women, whether new or experienced followed everything and the dances were smooth, free of anticipation... So maybe all Glasgow Jumpin' Jaks followers are wonderful or I anticipate ahead of anticipation and the problem disappears... :nice:
As a serious corollary, I wonder if it makes me less able to assess / help followers in identifying faults in their dancing!

[Gav]

P.S. Can I vote for Double Trouble as Queen of the Forum? Who do I mail?
:innocent:

Careful, you'll start a competition and I know of one or two forumites who might be better prepared for war! :devil:

[David Bailey]

I used to believe in 'anticipation traps' but have since discovered that with proper continuous lead and connection, combined with accurate pre-leads then all anticipation vanishes from most followers.
Yes - I think that's probably why I'm doing this less, I don't feel the need to do it. But then, I also don't feel the need to wrap my arms around in a pretzel so much nowdays too.


As a serious corollary, I wonder if it makes me less able to assess / help followers in identifying faults in their dancing!
I think it does - if you don't have "bad" dances because you're compensating authomatically to your follower, it's sometimes difficult to see what's going wrong - because nothing is, it's just a different level of dance.


I think the Anticipation Trap (didn't know it had a name)
It does now :)


P.S. Can I vote for Double Trouble as Queen of the Forum? Who do I mail?:innocent:
We've got one of these already... and she's got Big Power :worthy: :grovel:


Do you think any of the Ten would really stoop to become Ceroc teachers?
No no no - this is the Ceroc Ten, a feeble and failed imitation of the Real Ten. Or, possibly, that's what they want you to think.

[Lory]

For me, it's a brilliant teaching method and probably the only one that ever really makes any immediate sense... my Ballroom teacher is the absolute queen of anticipation traps!

I've developed a new problem though (DJ's gonna love this one:wink: ) since doing Tango, sometimes, unless categorically lead to do something, i've found myself literally stopping and guys looking at me as though i'm mad:blush:

I don't know whats worse? :rofl:

[David Bailey]

I've developed a new problem though (DJ's gonna love this one:wink: ) since doing Tango, sometimes, unless categorically lead to do something, i've found myself literally stopping and guys looking at me as though i'm mad:blush:
In AT, one can stop with style - stopping is an essential component of the dance.
In MJ, it's maybe better to wiggle on the spot in time - depending on the music of course.

[MartinHarper]

I find I give enough counter-intuitive leads normally, without needing to artificially introduce more.


Hey, it's not easy leading nothing, I'll have you know.

Good followers make it easy. Bad followers make it impossible.


There's one that always anticipates an underarm turn from a right to right hold, and she has very stiff shoulders and elbows. When it happens she ends up wrong footed and I end up with a sore shoulder!

On first reading, it sounds like you need to get a bit more frame when dancing with her. If you don't let your shoulder get into a position where it's vulnerable, you won't get a sore shoulder. It may still be unpleasant, but at least you can keep yourself safe.

[Gav]

On first reading, it sounds like you need to get a bit more frame when dancing with her.

Zimmer frame?

Seriously, please explain "more frame" as if I had no idea what you meant? :blush:

[David Bailey]

Seriously, please explain "more frame" as if I had no idea what you meant? :blush:
To quote Wikipedia:

Frame is the body position maintained by dancers during partner dancing. Maintenance of the frame provides connection, making leading and following possible. It is essential in all dances, but especially so in modern ballroom dance.

Specifically, frame refers to the position of the upper body of the dancers relative to the rest of the dancer's body and the body of the dancer's partner. While not the same as rigidity, it requires internal muscle tension to ensure that the connection between partners is not lost. In some cases, it may involve body contact, but this depends on the style of dancing.

The required frame varies according to the dance—in street latin style dances such as salsa, arms are held more loosely, while in swing dances, outward directed pressure is used to maintain the position.

[MartinHarper]

Please explain "more frame" as if I had no idea what you meant? :blush:

See The Frame (http://cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9949) thread, I guess.

In context, this girl is applying a degree of force on your hand, and you're presumably absorbing some of this energy in your shoulder joint, and so getting a sore shoulder. This can happen if you have "floppy" arms. Instead, you want to absorb this energy in your arms, by matching her force. If you find you cannot match her force, you can instead move out of the way (absorbing the energy in your whole body).

[Gav]

See The Frame (http://cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9949) thread, I guess.

In context, this girl is applying a degree of force on your hand, and you're presumably absorbing some of this energy in your shoulder joint, and so getting a sore shoulder. This can happen if you have "floppy" arms. Instead, you want to absorb this energy in your arms, by matching her force. If you find you cannot match her force, you can instead move out of the way (absorbing the energy in your whole body).

Not floppy arms, it's because I'm trying to lead her one way and she's trying to force me in another direction. Stressing any joint in one direction, then taking a push in an unexpected direction causes injuries (sports coach!).

Thanks for the link, I'll look at that one. I've also decided that if I pull her to one side and ask her to work through the move with me because it's causing problems, we're more likely to get to the root of it, and I won't have to hide under the table any more!

[spindr]

Several ceroc teachers have told me that a good leader can make even a beginner look fantastic. It's not our fault, ever if it all goes wrong. (not my words just telling you what I have beed told)
Hmmm, I think a few minutes watching Strictly Come Dancing will show you the inherent fallacy in the above.

SpinDr

[NZ Monkey]

Well, making them 'look' fantastic is probably not accurate, but making them 'feel' fantastic and look like they can follow every move easily and gracefully is certainly possible.

I used to believe in 'anticipation traps' but have since discovered that with proper continuous lead and connection, combined with accurate pre-leads then all anticipation vanishes from most followers. So while I don't think anticipating is a good thing, and until we can hone our leading skills to completely reassure our partner that she never feels the need to anticipate, anticipation traps might help both leaders and followers to improve, but ultimately, I would rather work on my connection and continuous lead to ensure my partner feels like she's following perfectly at all time.

I find that when I’m dancing with a beginner (actually, with anyone) that anticipates to a large extent or with a very good dancer who plays a lot then I wind up doing a mixture of both leading and following, although for different reasons in each case.

As long as I can maintain a connection I can usually feel when I need to do one or the other. I’m not sure if this is the same thing as what you’re describing Franck but it sounds like it might be.

{NZ Monkey re-reads Francks post, realises that this probably isn't what he was talking about after all but decides to keep on going because it's an interesting concept anyway}

Connection and continuous lead are vital to being a very good leader. With the followers who are prone to anticipating with everyone else do you find that they can still follow your lead to where *you* choose them to be, or do you find that because of your connection you can simply adapt to where they're going and change what you're doing mid-move? I think it's probably a fair statement that Very Good Dancers don't really think that much about what they're doing (it's like walking to them after all) so I can see how the latter could happen and not be noticed.

If it is the latter, can you really say that it's being a good lead that makes the dance feel fantastic, or is it because you're also a good follower?

NZ Monkey rests his chin on his fist, furrows his brow and contemplates the deep and meaningful questions of life....

[Franck]

For me, it's a brilliant teaching method and probably the only one that ever really makes any immediate sense... my Ballroom teacher is the absolute queen of anticipation traps!Oh I agree! As a teaching method, in the context of a practise session, class or workshop, then suggesting anticipation traps to leaders during the class to spot potential anticipation and follower assumptions is very useful. In freestyle however, it just leads to frustration for the followers and unwarranted smugness for the leaders.

Hmmm, I think a few minutes watching Strictly Come Dancing will show you the inherent fallacy in the above.Well that's the problem with very strict dances like Ballroom... You clearly cannot lead any beginner through complex footwork patterns and make them look good at the same time. MJ however is a different (and better for it) dance as you can adjust your moves, dancing to make your partner feel good (and look pretty good too). I always thought I could have a better dance with Fiona Phillips than Brendan ever seem to managed (as Len showed later in the show).

I find that when I’m dancing with a beginner (actually, with anyone) that anticipates to a large extent or with a very good dancer who plays a lot then I wind up doing a mixture of both leading and following, although for different reasons in each case.

As long as I can maintain a connection I can usually feel when I need to do one or the other. I’m not sure if this is the same thing as what you’re describing Franck but it sounds like it might be.

{NZ Monkey re-reads Francks post, realises that this probably isn't what he was talking about after all but decides to keep on going because it's an interesting concept anyway}I see what you mean, and no I wasn't referring to that, though I do a certain amount of reactive leading :wink:
My contention is that most anticipation is a result of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt from followers, and that by leading more continuously and earlier (as well as paying attention to your partner's balance, weight distribution and whether she's in a position to do the move you're about to lead) then you can avoid most doubts and have a follower who will follow you properly.

Connection and continuous lead are vital to being a very good leader. With the followers who are prone to anticipating with everyone else do you find that they can still follow your lead to where *you* choose them to be, or do you find that because of your connection you can simply adapt to where they're going and change what you're doing mid-move? I think it's probably a fair statement that Very Good Dancers don't really think that much about what they're doing (it's like walking to them after all) so I can see how the latter could happen and not be noticed.

If it is the latter, can you really say that it's being a good lead that makes the dance feel fantastic, or is it because you're also a good follower?

NZ Monkey rests his chin on his fist, furrows his brow and contemplates the deep and meaningful questions of life....Well, I am not one of those natural great dancers, every progress I made was hard work and the result of great teachers sharing their insights in workshops. Part of the reason I can analyse what I do is that I had to learn, practise (and now teach) it.

[Lynn]

But what if you're doing it as a test? Or if you're trying to catch them out in order to teach them something? That's what I'm getting at.

The thing is, I realise I haven't actually done this sort of thing for a couple of years now, but I don't know why. Perhaps I've mellowed in my old age.Hmm, perhaps in tango? There is a move which you've led with me several times that doesn't work if I've changed weight to the other foot (unled). Yes - it does catch me out. And yes, I do find it helpful.

So I'd go for instructive - being that a good follower should be just that, and any leader who is trying to improve the general standard of following (as opposed to just going 'na, you got it wrong!') is probably taking some interest in actually dancing with the follower, rather than simply thinking 'I'll stick to the predictable, I know what she's going to do' - and possibly getting bored.

With the qualifying factors of - it depends on the person - are they just out for a fun night of dancing, happy with the level they are at? Or are they someone always keen to learn and improve? And it depends on how well you know them - a complete stranger - try a little one, see how they react - someone you've danced with before - you know how much you can do (or whether its a lost cause, I've danced with a few followers who are going to more or less lead themselves no matter what I do, so I let them get on with it.)

EDIT - most of the dancing I do as lead is with beginners who are still at the 'walking through the move themselves' so I might try to lead them in variations they maybe don't know yet - is that an 'anticipation trap'?

[Blueshoes]

Well, making them 'look' fantastic is probably not accurate, but making them 'feel' fantastic and look like they can follow every move easily and gracefully is certainly possible.


A dance should be a partnership between the two participants. If the lady is anticipating this detracts from the dance, and anticipation traps definitely do the same.

I used to do them but realised it was working against my partner not with them, and it just leads to a fight for supremacy, not my idea of a good dance.

If this happens now I simplify the moves and make sure I lead them well so there can be no ambiguity as to what I'd like my partner to be doing. Or I sometimes say "I'd like to try out this move, what do you think?" and walk through the move with her.

I always think I should be working with my partner to create a memorable overall experience. Anticipation traps just aren't compatible with that philosophy. :)

[SeriouslyAddicted]

She's being forced to anticipate, because the Leader is clueless, has a wishy-washy lead, no floorcraft (so leading her into the path of other dancers) or no musicality - then there's no point in him leading such a trap. In that case, the lady's anticipation should be seen as instructive.

:yeah:

[Blueshoes]

Most of the dancing I do as lead is with beginners who are still at the 'walking through the move themselves' so I might try to lead them in variations they maybe don't know yet - is that an 'anticipation trap'?

Not if they're following you OK. The way I look at it it's only a trap if you're deliberately going into a different move to 'teach them a lesson'. You could always explain the variations are a teaching aid to avoid anticipation pitfalls. :)

[David Bailey]

Not if they're following you OK. The way I look at it it's only a trap if you're deliberately going into a different move to 'teach them a lesson'. You could always explain the variations are a teaching aid to avoid anticipation pitfalls. :)
Anticipation traps aren't "moves led badly", they have to be led well if they're to be useful.

A good anticipation trap should have a very clear lead, but should be a non-standard move, so that the follower is forced to either think (i.e. follow) or to mess it up.

Ideally, the "messing it up" process should make it clear to the follower what went wrong. So, for a cross-body lead, a follower trying an underarm turn will feel uncomfortable because they're turning in the opposite direction to the one they're being led in.

Of course, some followers may autmatically assume it's the leader's fault - in which case, don't lead those moves on them, they're not ready to learn yet.

Hmmm... thinking about it, I'm still doing anticipation trap moves, but I tend not to let the follower mess it up beyond a certain point. Also, I've got enough practice with those moves so that I think my lead is generally clear enough with them - certainly it's rare that I can't lead anyone, even a beginner, in a cross-body lead...

Oooh, maybe I'm a Good Dancer :)

[Beowulf]

I'll mention some names if you like.
then watch steam coming out of my computer......!
love this site.

oh dear.. It's GetAGrip all over again.. in duplicate.. and Female.. with monthly mood swings. Heaven help us all !! :wink:


... combined with accurate pre-leads

PRE-leads? Jings, What on earth is a pre-lead? and do we have to precede those with a Pre-Pre-lead?


P.S. Can I vote for Double Trouble as Queen of the Forum?

Queen as in Marie Antoinette perhaps?? Actually going by posts from her and her sister it's more likely to be The Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland. I.e. chopping not being chopped !!

Last time I danced there was a beginner who's first night it was at Ceroc but had been doing Swing dancing for a while. Now she was lovely to dance with but try as I could, I could not stop her anticipating moves. I'm not a good enough lead myself to attempt to "trap" her anticipated moves and I hope with more experience she'll learn to anticipate less. But I disagree with the statement that it's "always the Leads fault" I'm confident (ME? Confident? hahaha) that I led my moves to the best of my ability, clearly and correctly but obviously there's room for improvement in my own leading abilities.


Pete

[Franck]

Anticipation traps aren't "moves led badly", they have to be led well if they're to be useful.I see that as self-contradictory. In my view, if a move is led well, then no anticipation is possible.
Leading is not only about taking your partner places, it's about closing all other doors / options before you lead her through the only remaing option (provided that again you have taken into account her position and balance and the door left open is not impossible to reach easily).

[Franck]

PRE-leads? Jings, What on earth is a pre-lead? and do we have to precede those with a Pre-Pre-lead?Pre-leads (my term) refer to all the steps you have to take before leading your partner into a move / position. It involves getting your parner on the correct foot, making sure she is balanced properly and has the right momentum as well as making sure that you are in the correct position, on the right foot and are not giving any other confusing signals / leads. All this happens just before you actually lead the move you intend to do and is definitely not easy to achieve consistently (if at all).

[David Bailey]

I see that as self-contradictory. In my view, if a move is led well, then no anticipation is possible.
Depends on how you see moves, doesn't it?

If a move is an invitation - well, it's always possible to refuse it, no matter how clear it is.

If the move is an "inevitable and natural progression of steps", then it's much more difficult to refuse that.

But, some moves like the straightjacket can still be messed up (to a point) by a follower - for example, it's difficult to control the lady and stop her from turning whilst doing the walk-around bit. Not impossible, just difficult.

And if you have to constantly correct the follower just to get the move right, that's still messing up the move to my mind - it may still look OK, but it won't feel all natural and flow-y.

[Franck]

Depends on how you see moves, doesn't it?Well, indeed though I guess, I wasn't thinking of actual moves (as in Pretzel, straight-jacket, etc.) more of the next step you're leading (as part of any move).

If a move is an invitation - well, it's always possible to refuse it, no matter how clear it is.

If the move is an "inevitable and natural progression of steps", then it's much more difficult to refuse that.

But, some moves like the straightjacket can still be messed up (to a point) by a follower - for example, it's difficult to control the lady and stop her from turning whilst doing the walk-around bit. Not impossible, just difficult. The better you are at preparing for a move and leading with smooth continuity, the easier it is to 'Lead nothing' and other seemingly impossible things.

And if you have to constantly correct the follower just to get the move right, that's still messing up the move to my mind - it may still look OK, but it won't feel all natural and flow-y.
Well, that's the point, if you lead consistently well and early, then you never have to correct the follower... :D

[Gadget]

I've still kept some legacies from that time - for example, my love of the Straightjacket - but I don't do it so much now, either I'm lazier or more easy-going.Perhaps it's because you are now actually leading the moves properly and providing enough fore-warning to the follower of what's coming up.
In "anticipation traps" the lead leads something that could be A or B... and lets the follower start down the common "A" path before going phhht and trying to divert them down the "B" path.
OK, some followers plough right ahead no matter what the fore-warning, but most are responsive. You can normally feel those that steam into moves and simply change the lead from "B" to "A" - they might notice a 'blip' in the lead, but that's all.

{I used to do this a lot as well - I think it must be a "stage" you go through :sick:}


My question is: do people think that anticipation traps are good or bad things? Are they evil, or instructive?If a move is led as an 'anticiaption trap', then it's a bad move, requires a signal or isn't being led well enough.
If the follower simply anticipates rather than following a lead, then it should be obvious to them - and hopefully usefull.

[David Bailey]

Perhaps it's because you are now actually leading the moves properly and providing enough fore-warning to the follower of what's coming up.
Possibly - but also I think it's more that I know the sort of thing the follower might try to do wrong and so I'm ready to correct her early enough for it not to be A Thing.


In "anticipation traps" the lead leads something that could be A or B... and lets the follower start down the common "A" path before going phhht and trying to divert them down the "B" path.
No no and thrice no.

Anticipation traps are designed to trap followers who anticipate - stangely enough. (Hopefully we can agree that anticipation is generally a Bad Thing?)

Anticipation traps are standard moves - they're led normally, they should be clear, unambiguous and easy to follow. A non-anticipating follower will have no problems with an anticipation trap, but someone who anticipates rather than follows will get caught out.

That's the point.

[David Bailey]

Well, that's the point, if you lead consistently well and early, then you never have to correct the follower... :D
I suspect there are some followers who may confound that. Of course, the answer is "don't do those moves with those people", but how do you know until you try the first time?

By a conservative estimate, I must have led several thousand straightjackets and cross-body leads over the past few years, and it's still possible for a follower to mess them up. OK, it's much more difficult now, but not impossible.

[Lynn]

OK - this is raising more questions than answers for me.

- Where is the line between 'anticipating' and 'assisting' a really poor lead?

- When do you take action (if you do) - and when do you just stick to simple moves, but try to lead them really clearly (of course the problem is that anticpating means the women moves before the lead occurs, so improving the lead may not help.)

- What do you do with women who literally 'lead themselves'? I know one who will go through the whole routine in class while you hardly move (if leading) - and extends this to freestyle.

[SteveK]

- What do you do with women who literally 'lead themselves'? I know one who will go through the whole routine in class while you hardly move (if leading) - and extends this to freestyle.

:yeah: I find this really frustrating when women do this; my technique in classes is to smile and go "spaghetti armed" so at least the women do all the work then. :grin:

Was amused to hear about "anticipation traps" - hadn't heard this term before. However wouldn't the use of "variations" be less contentious? :devil: I am partial to using unusual variations to catch out women trying to lead; although always try to combine this with a cheesy grin - usually gets an acknowledgement at least?

I would be interested in any subtle/gentle techniques people have to stop the follower when we're trying to match a break in the music? Any ideas?

[NZ Monkey]

I would be interested in any subtle/gentle techniques people have to stop the follower when we're trying to match a break in the music? Any ideas?You could stun them with a tazer.

It'd probably only work the once. Ever. I'd pay good money to see it though. :devil:

Or failing that try to hit the breaks in a close hold or a dip until they get used to the idea. That way it's harder for them to just''step back''. Some women may not like it of course so you'll need to just use your best judgement there

[Lory]

PRE-leads? Jings, What on earth is a pre-lead? and do we have to precede those with a Pre-Pre-lead?


The thing is Beo, you're probably already unknowingly starting to pre-lead with your body movement/positioning, which is great, if its not in conflict with your hand leads!!!

But the thing I hate most, is when the hands are saying do 'this' but the body is saying do 'that'. :confused:

All the BEST dancers, rely very little on their hands, it's mostly in the body movement and as Franck says, being intune with the momentum of your partners body, makes for a silky smooth dance (that goes for follows as well as leads)


I think most men have a series of foolproof moves, that 99% of their partners 'get.' Then there are the muddy water moves, that work OK with some follows and not so successful with others.. this is the time when the leader had to work out, is it 'me' not leading clearly, or the 'follow' going wrong?

I suggest if in doubt, you find a follow you 'know' is competent and try it out on them and ask if it feels ambiguous;)

[David Bailey]

- Where is the line between 'anticipating' and 'assisting' a really poor lead?
It's clearly controversial for a follower to do any backleading.

Sometimes it's necessary, but IMO generally it's the last resort, and should only be used after everything else (including "going floppy"!) fails as a technique. And even then only once for demonstration purposes.

Backleading is bad, not just because it doesn't teach the leader to lead - but also, it teaches you the follower not to follow.


- What do you do with women who literally 'lead themselves'? I know one who will go through the whole routine in class while you hardly move (if leading) - and extends this to freestyle.
Not dance with them?

OK, seriously - almost all followers will follow a good enough lead. Or pre-lead, pre-pre-lead or whatever. Almost no followers want to make it a wrestling match - I reckon it's much less than 1% who are genuinely impossible to lead.

Offhand I can only think of two experienced-but-notoriously-unleadable followers in the London MJ scene. And as they are both genuinely weirdos, I don't think they're indicative of anything much.

[Alice]

You could stun them with a tazer.


Erm, what's a tazer? :what: :eek:


Alice makes a mental note to avoid both SteveK and NZ Monkey in the future, particularly if either of them starts complaining about not hitting the breaks with their partners...

...or to get a cattle prod for retaliation:devil:

[Beowulf]

Erm, what's a tazer? :what: :eek:

...or to get a cattle prod for retaliation:devil:

Tazer = Cattle prod for Bad Humans!!

Either poke in their side or point at them like a gun and two tiny darts with thin wire shoot out to incapacitate a victim with an electric shock.

speaking as someone who has given himself more electric shocks (accidentally I may add) than he'd dare to admit to I imagine they'd be pretty painfull.. and effective!!

[robd]

I would be interested in any subtle/gentle techniques people have to stop the follower when we're trying to match a break in the music? Any ideas?

If , as a leader, I am forcing the follower to 'stop' then I am not sure that 'we're trying to match a break in the music' more that 'I'm trying to match a break in the music'. However, semantic distinctions aside, I know what you wish to achieve. My avatar carries the tag 'Gentle Leader' and I believe that's a reasonable reflection of how I dance. If, however, I wish to bring someone to an abrupt halt (not harsh or painful) then I will sometimes apply MORE force than usual in order to achieve this. This is particularly true with followers who are less used to 'playing' themselves. It will sometimes require more force than I normally apply in order to keep the follower in a static position until I am ready to recommence. One downside of this is that occasionally my feet get trodden on :what: if, say, I have stepped in suddenly behind a follower and absorbed their momentum but not sufficiently so.

[killingtime]

You could stun them with a tazer.

Nah, their body would shake and contort as you put a large current through them. I suppose if you wanted them to shimmy on the break then it might work.


- What do you do with women who literally 'lead themselves'? I know one who will go through the whole routine in class while you hardly move (if leading) - and extends this to freestyle.

Classes can be a problem in this. The follow can get far to used to doing what they were expected to do. I had this in reverse in a WCS class recently where I was anticipating a lady steal. When I did it felt horrible, when I didn't it worked great.

I've, just sometimes, lead a little before the teacher calls out what you are to do next hence the follower has to pay more attention to what I'm doing and less on watching the teacher and following what she is doing and ignoring the lead.

[Gav]

I've, just sometimes, lead a little before the teacher calls out what you are to do next hence the follower has to pay more attention to what I'm doing and less on watching the teacher and following what she is doing and ignoring the lead.

I've had to politely point out a few times, that if the lady keeps twisting and contorting her body to see what the teacher is doing, it makes it pretty difficult to lead the move, but I can see why they would want to do it during the demonstration. Just not in the middle of the move itself! :devil:

[Blueshoes]

But the thing I hate most, is when the hands are saying do 'this' but the body is saying do 'that'. :confused:


There was a workshop at Southport (the June one I think) run by Nelson and Karen that covered this, aparently there is a heirarchy for following conflicting leads. Unfortunately I can't remember what it is so I'll have to go back and watch the DVD again.... :rolleyes:

[Lory]

aparently there is a heirarchy for following conflicting leads.

Really? I'd be interested to know this :flower:

[bigdjiver]

...- What do you do with women who literally 'lead themselves'? I know one who will go through the whole routine in class while you hardly move (if leading) - and extends this to freestyle.I call this "Maypoling". There is an unspoken "You just stand there, and I'll dance around you."

[Frankie_4711]

Then there are the muddy water moves, that work OK with some follows and not so successful with others.. this is the time when the leader had to work out, is it 'me' not leading clearly, or the 'follow' going wrong?

I suggest if in doubt, you find a follow you 'know' is competent and try it out on them and ask if it feels ambiguous;)

I came across this situation not long ago - I was trying to lead a catapult variation (instead of spinning them at the end, I raise our left arms over their head, onto their shoulders and do a walk around) on several followers (all Beginners) and all of them did a turn instead. So I tried it on a couple of Taxis, and they both followed perfectly - so I knew it wasn't my lead.

[robd]

So I tried it on a couple of Taxis, and they both followed perfectly - so I knew it wasn't my lead.

Dangerous thinking. I can understand the reasoning but always like to think of it in terms of advanced dancers (the taxis in your example) being better able to compensate and adjust for a less good lead than necessarily thinking it is always the follow that is incompetent.

With the specific move you mention (assuming I read it right) I would say a fairly foolproof way to lead it would be to retain a hold of the follows r/h at your right hip until you've got your left hand on to their shoulder. This should curb any willingness to turn.

Robert

[David Bailey]

Dangerous thinking. I can understand the reasoning but always like to think of it in terms of advanced dancers (the taxis in your example) being better able to compensate and adjust for a less good lead than necessarily thinking it is always the follow that is incompetent.
That's what I was going to say. So, :yeah:, basically.

A better test of a lead is the inverse - if a beginner can follow it, your lead is good.

[Gadget]

{:tears: poooo :( I just lost what I wrote}

Possibly - but also I think it's more that I know the sort of thing the follower might try to do wrong and so I'm ready to correct her early enough for it not to be A Thing.
You're doing a bit of AT now? yes? Has that not improved you orientation, body positioning and hence your 'pre-lead'? I know my awareness of preperation and pre-lead was dramatically heightened after (/during) the AT I've done.


No no and thrice no.

Anticipation traps are designed to trap followers who anticipate - stangely enough.No, no and thrice no: Anticipation traps are designed to (and I quote) "Catch people out". This is going in contradiction to everything a lead and a dance should be about.
If you arewanting to catch a follower out, it's really easy: Don't give them any warning of what you are going to do and expect them to act on the microsecond of your lead. For anyone that avoids 'anticipation traps' :worthy: you are a better dancer than your partner.

[quiote]Anticipation traps are standard moves - they're led normally, they should be clear, unambiguous and easy to follow. A non-anticipating follower will have no problems with an anticipation trap, but someone who anticipates rather than follows will get caught out.

That's the point.[/QUOTE]:what: that is my dancing. Full stop. A follower can only "aticipate" due to them (a) not paying a blind bit of attention (b) ignoring what is being led or (c) thinking the dance is a sequence of moves rather than movements and embarking on the move they think it should be ahead of the lead.
Each can be compensated for within the lead.

{... then again... I have been accused of being evil on more than one occasion :devil:}



Should a lead antcipate? Should they anticipate the the follower is going to move as per the lead they give, or should they respond to the movement that the follower actually does?
In theory they should be the same thing, but is the lead is an invitation or a dictatorship?

[Gadget]

I would be interested in any subtle/gentle techniques people have to stop the follower when we're trying to match a break in the music? Any ideas?Basket, Swizzle, Open part of first move, barrier before spin out in cattapult. Each of these has a strong two handed control of the follower where they can't really carry on with the (standard) move without your express permission.

The hardest bit is getting to the appropriate point in the move, on the break. :rolleyes: Good luck :flower:

[Gadget]

...aparently there is a heirarchy for following conflicting leads.Physically, the one closest to a follower (or their "core") is the primary lead, although it can be minimised to a secondary lead if another contact point is giving a stronger signal (ie more force).

After physical leads are visual or 'body' leads. These are normally suplimental to the physical lead and if contradict the physical lead, should be ignored. They are often used as a pre-emptive lead or a reinforcing lead to a very light physical lead. The lighter the physical lead, the stronger* the body lead needs to be.
(*strong refers to clarity and emphisis rather than large movements)

Conflicting leads often are used to produce a specific motion: the primary lead indicates direction and the secondary controlls momentum and gives finer control.

{some of this paraphrased from the likes of DavidB and Franck, some from me.}

[David Bailey]

You're doing a bit of AT now? yes?
A bit. Tiny bit. I can stop any time.


Has that not improved you orientation, body positioning and hence your 'pre-lead'? I know my awareness of preperation and pre-lead was dramatically heightened after (/during) the AT I've done.
Possibly; it's certainly changed my lead, from a salsa style to a err other style... Improved? Dunno.


No, no and thrice no: Anticipation traps are designed to (and I quote) "Catch people out". This is going in contradiction to everything a lead and a dance should be about.
So, that's a vote in the "evil" camp then. :)

I guess it depends on your definition. Would you view the two example moves I've given (straightjacket and cross-body lead) as Anticipation Traps?


In theory they should be the same thing, but is the lead is an invitation or a dictatorship?
Good question. I thought it was an invitation...

[spindr]

Analogies aren't great, but here goes:

1). Some teachers say "The leader leads, the follower follows the leader".
2). Other teachers say "The leader leads, the follower follows the leader *and* then the leader follows the follower".

Neither are particularly wrong -- oh substitute "invite" and "accept" if you like. The second form is more suited to general social dancing -- but might be confusing for beginners.

If you think of the lead/follow as more of a conversation, then
1). is like a monologue
2). is more like a discussion -- but is going to get really frustrating if the follower keeps "changing the subject".

Some moves can be used as an "Oi!" -- they're probably abrupt and "catch people out". Others are more of an "Ahem" -- a "please stop day-dreaming about your next dance and dance *with me*". Others are more like the payoff to a joke -- may be surprising -- "Ta-da!".

Do you really need to lead "Oi!" moves -- well, probably not. The others, well there's a time and a place :)

SpinDr

P.S. No cross-body lead and straightjacket aren't anticipation traps. The straightjacket is certainly a "lead" trap -- if you don't lead it well, then the follower's arm will be in a strange angle so that you can't complete the move.

[MartinHarper]

Followers can also try to catch out their partners, by "only following what is lead". The problem is that, in doing this, it becomes very easy to end up missing a valid lead, because it's not coming in the way the follower expects.
A similar problem occurs with leaders and "anticipation traps" - by concentrating on the trap, we end up interfering with the follower's telepathy, thus making it more likely that they'll be caught in the trap than they would if we were leading it normally.


A better test of a lead is the inverse - if a beginner can follow it, your lead is good.

If a poor follower can follow a move from me, and it's not simple and beginner-style, I'm overleading it. Overleading is a source of bad habits, and would put a speed limit on my dancing.


If you are wanting to catch a follower out, it's really easy: Don't give them any warning of what you are going to do and expect them to act on the microsecond of your lead.

I find it's pretty much impossible to catch out a very good follower. She'll always be in control of her balance, so I can't catch her off balance. She'll be ready to respond to any force, anywhere and anytime, so "surprise" leads don't work. She'll be well aware of my balance, and know where I'm going to move even before I do. Plus, any time I feel like I'm about to catch her out, she'll just smoothly transitions into a sabotage thing and look smug; and also very cool.


Several ceroc teachers have told me that a good leader can make even a beginner look fantastic. It's not our fault, ever if it all goes wrong. (not my words just telling you what I have beed told)

The standard claim is that "it is always the leader's fault". If the designated follower is anticipating, then she is sharing the lead, and it is therefore possible for her to be at fault.


I always think I should be working with my partner to create a memorable overall experience. Anticipation traps just aren't compatible with that philosophy.

I find that screwing up is entirely compatible with an enjoyable/memorable dance experience. Why would I want to hide my partner's screw-ups from her? Why would she want to hide mine from me? Why do we each need to pretend that the other is infallible to have a good time?


Last time I danced there was a beginner who's first night it was at Ceroc but had been doing Swing dancing for a while. Now she was lovely to dance with but try as I could, I could not stop her anticipating moves.

There are several differences in lead/follow philosophy between MJ and Lindy or WCS. In a cross-style partnership, these differences often end up feeling like anticipation to the lead. It's nobody's fault.


What do you do with women who literally 'lead themselves'?

Deliberately? I get cross. In a class I stop dancing with her and wait for the rotation. It's never happened to me in freestyle, but I'd walk off the floor if it ever did.

[Caro]

I guess it depends on your definition. Would you view the two example moves I've given (straightjacket and cross-body lead) as Anticipation Traps?



The Straighjacket is an Evil, Evil, move. I don't think I have ever managed to do it (by that I mean as a follow, I don't lead evil moves :innocent: ) smoothly, so was it me anticipating :blush: or the leader not being accurate enough :devil: ?

Having said that, not many people at all lead that move, I don't think I have done it more than 5 times... but strangely enough I remember all of them :sick: :tears:

Call me a bad follower... :blush: :whistle:

[Lory]

The Straighjacket is an Evil,

I don't even know what it is :confused:

DJ, have you ever been evil enough to use it on me? :devil:

[Caro]

If it is what I think it is, it's that move where you end up facing the guy with both your arms in a half-nelson position behind your back, with the guy still holding both your hands behing your back. It's difficult to get there smoothly for a start, but then, when you're there, you're totally trapped and at his mercy :devil:

horrible move!

[Lory]

If it is what I think it is, it's that move where you end up facing the guy with both your arms in a half-nelson position behind your back, with the guy still holding both your hands behing your back. It's difficult to get there smoothly for a start, but then, when you're there, you're totally trapped and at his mercy :devil:

horrible move!

Ah THAT move, I have a couple of inherent problems with that one :whistle:

[Cruella]

Ah THAT move, I have a couple of inherent problems with that one :whistle:

Me too :wink:

[David Bailey]

The Straighjacket is an Evil, Evil, move. I don't think I have ever managed to do it ... smoothly, so was it me anticipating :blush: or the leader not being accurate enough :devil: ?
Possibly both.
If you tried to move out of it, that's anticipation.
If the leader's looking / feeling awkward with it, that's bad leading.


Ah THAT move, I have a couple of inherent problems with that one :whistle:Yes, that probably answers your question - combined with my ickle armsies... :rofl:

[Frankie_4711]

Dangerous thinking. I can understand the reasoning but always like to think of it in terms of advanced dancers (the taxis in your example) being better able to compensate and adjust for a less good lead than necessarily thinking it is always the follow that is incompetent.

Point taken - hadn't seen it that way.


With the specific move you mention (assuming I read it right) I would say a fairly foolproof way to lead it would be to retain a hold of the follows r/h at your right hip until you've got your left hand on to their shoulder. This should curb any willingness to turn.

I do try and do that, but sometimes they just snatch their hand away because they think I should be letting go. I certainly don't want to end up breaking fingers just to keep hold!


I find that screwing up is entirely compatible with an enjoyable/memorable dance experience. Why would I want to hide my partner's screw-ups from her? Why would she want to hide mine from me? Why do we each need to pretend that the other is infallible to have a good time?

:respect: I love screwed up dances! Don't get me wrong - I don't deliberately set out to get it wrong, but it can be so much fun when it happens. Monday's intermediate class was a great example - I was with a fixed partner and most of the moves were going wrong most of the time, and the couple next to us were having a lot of the same problems, so the four of us were just falling about laughing - it didn't matter that we weren't able to dance the routine correctly or stylishly from start to finish - it mattered that we were enjoying ourselves and having a laugh (and anyway - it kept me on my toes to *follow* what was being lead instead of what *should* have been being lead, as all kinds of variations were coming out!)


The Straighjacket is an Evil, Evil, move.

I LOVE the Straightjacket! Not saying I can always execute *ahem* sorry follow it perfectly every time (some men just can't lead it well enough ... arms not long enough?) but I do really like it. I'm not quite sure why ... *goes away to ponder that one*

[Lou]

Hey, David - I think Some Scientists (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6058500.stm) have solved your problem. :D


"This year, we have a robot that can dance. It's an elegant progression."
....
In particular, it has been designed as a female - which has to respond to its human, male lead partner, rather than leading itself.

[ALexyMiss]

Personally I don't mind the odd 'anticipation trap' - keeps me on my toes! And I think it can be used as a fun/ teasing way for a lead to remind a follower to follow! :innocent: But definitely shouldn't be overused, or it'd take the fun out of it! :na:

[Zuhal]

Two Royal Marines are told to run around the barracks and report back. In the blink of an eye they were back in front of the Officer.

Surprised but with controlled anger he says "what took you so long?"
to which they reply "Thought you said twice"

For those that are still reading, what can be done with follow who has only has one speed of executing a turn? During every turn and return she is back in front of you, several beats ahead of the music.

Trying to control the turn by stirring at the correct pace takes them off balance. Allowing them to turn is an area where the LEAD is ineffectual because of where the connection is with a balanced follow.

Ideas pse

Zuhal

[MartinHarper]

What can be done with follow who has only has one speed of executing a turn? During every turn and return she is back in front of you, several beats ahead of the music.

Options:
1) Use those beats to "play".
2) When the follower has come about 3/4 of the way round, you should be able to use some pressure on the side of her hand to slow her right down for the last 1/4.

[Caro]

For those that are still reading, what can be done with follow who has only has one speed of executing a turn? During every turn and return she is back in front of you, several beats ahead of the music.

Trying to control the turn by stirring at the correct pace takes them off balance. Allowing them to turn is an area where the LEAD is ineffectual because of where the connection is with a balanced follow.

Ideas pse

Zuhal

how about controling the speed at which she turns using your hand around her waist, as in a first move with a couple (or more:devil: ) of anti-clockwise turns out?
That could be an opportunity for her to realise that she might use different speeds to do the turns... or she might never get the hint :rolleyes:

[killingtime]

Hey, David - I think Some Scientists (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6058500.stm) have solved your problem. :D

I, personally, welcome our new evil, dancing, robot overlords :worthy: :worthy:.

[Frankie_4711]

Personally I don't mind the odd 'anticipation trap' - keeps me on my toes! And I think it can be used as a fun/ teasing way for a lead to remind a follower to follow! :innocent: But definitely shouldn't be overused, or it'd take the fun out of it! :na:

:yeah: I think the reason I use them as a lead is because I like (/appreciate) them as a follow.

[peppercorn]

How do you guys remember all the names of these moves?????:sick: I've been dancing for 1.5 years and I still call them things like "the spin thingy out of the basket." (I remember some, my brains not totally gone!) :nice:

[David Bailey]

How do you guys remember all the names of these moves?????:sick: I've been dancing for 1.5 years and I still call them things like "the spin thingy out of the basket." (I remember some, my brains not totally gone!) :nice:
Hell, I don't - I doubt if I can remember more than, I dunno, 20 moves.

I keep on forgetting what a swizzel is, for example. And I can never remember what my "monkey-walk" move is either (bit like the columbian?).

It doesn't actually matter when dancing - only really useful when talking about dancing occasionally.

[peppercorn]

Hell, I don't - I doubt if I can remember more than, I dunno, 20 moves.

I keep on forgetting what a swizzel is, for example. And I can never remember what my "monkey-walk" move is either (bit like the columbian?).

It doesn't actually matter when dancing - only really useful when talking about dancing occasionally.

Fair enough! guess it doesn't help that i'm not an original ceroc-er so know most of the moves by a different name!! why we can't just all be friends i'll never know!!:)

[killingtime]

How do you guys remember all the names of these moves?????:sick: I've been dancing for 1.5 years and I still call them things like "the spin thingy out of the basket." (I remember some, my brains not totally gone!) :nice:

I think I know all the beginner moves names. Beyond that I don't really know many move names but often they are just the compound of all the bits in them so you might get "Almost Pretzel into Manhattan Walk" which consists of the two moves mentioned and a link between them.

I also remember the Flingy Flung because it's a cool name for a move.

I think some leads try and remember the name because they can remember the move better when they place a name against it. It depends on what learning styles suits the person.

I'd say names of moves are less useful for followers to know. Though apparently some guys shout out move names :confused:.

[Blueshoes]

How do you guys remember all the names of these moves?????:sick: I've been dancing for 1.5 years and I still call them things like "the spin thingy out of the basket." (I remember some, my brains not totally gone!) :nice:

The problem is that different organisations call the same moves by different names, and sometimes - even more confusingly - different moves by the same names.

For instance last night I learnt a 'first move dip' which was exactly like 'the jockey' I already knew. If someone mentions a pretzel or columbian I know what they're talking about but a 'first move walk round' or 'octopus spin' could be just about anything...

Add to that independant instructors who make up their own moves (some of which may have been taught before, unknown to them) and make up names for them as well and you can see that apart from beginners moves and certain 'stock' intermediate moves the names really don't mean a lot.

[timbp]

Though apparently some guys shout out move names :confused:.

I don't understand why anyone would shout out move names. And I don't know many move names.

but if it's the thing to do, I'll give it a go.
1. Do the move names I call out have to relate to the move I'm leading?
2. If I've been taught a particular move under different names, how do I decide which name to shout (assuming point 1 had a "yes" response).
3. What do I shout for those moves I make up on the spot?

[Gav]

I don't understand why anyone would shout out move names. And I don't know many move names.

but if it's the thing to do, I'll give it a go.
1. Do the move names I call out have to relate to the move I'm leading?
2. If I've been taught a particular move under different names, how do I decide which name to shout (assuming point 1 had a "yes" response).
3. What do I shout for those moves I make up on the spot?

Just for fun you could deliberately shout out the wrong names.
For example shout "1st move" as you lead a neckbreak. :devil:

and how do you manage to shout "first move barrier double turn out with a twist" before the move's finished? :confused:

one for the followers, if your lead shouts a move, try shouting something back, like w@nker, tw@t or shut the fcuk up! :angry:

[killingtime]

I don't understand why anyone would shout out move names.

Neither do I. Expect, I guess, if they couldn't lead them or if the move can't be lead. I think it is crazy. By the time the follower's brain (I'm not saying you ladies are slow or anything :flower: ) has worked out what was said over the music tried to work out what the "First Move Super Mega Uber Ultra Drop" is and try then to work out how to do that move she'd be lying on the floor wondering why the lead just put her there.

[Blueshoes]

Though apparently some guys shout out move names :confused:.

Certain moves have verbal signals, such as if you're bringing the lady at high speed back under your crossed arms it is sometimes useful to yell "duck" as they whizz past, at least that way if you give them a smack on the head by mistake you can always say you warned them! It may be me but the only way I can lead the triple step is to say 'triple step' at the start of the move, this is due to it having a starting point similar to other moves. Another move I do only works if I have unhindered access to the ladies waist, so the verbal sigal 'arms in the air' is useful at this point.

If move names are used for simple moves the guy obviously can't lead properly! :grin:

[timbp]

Another move I do only works if I have unhindered access to the ladies waist, so the verbal sigal 'arms in the air' is useful at this point.
Do you ever go beyond that to "skirt in the air"? (and does it give unhindered access?)

[Blueshoes]

Do you ever go beyond that to "skirt in the air"?

Only tried it once (in public), never again. It made my jaw ache too much.

[NZ Monkey]

I think some leads try and remember the name because they can remember the move better when they place a name against it. It depends on what learning styles suits the person.
Not only that, but if they’re the particularly dedicated sort who keep a record of what was taught in class then it helps a great deal to be able to call a move something.

I’ve never actually done that myself, but I had friends in NZ who did and all the moves taught there had names (yes, there were a lot of them). I imagine nobody could keep track of them without having names. Kevin Trudow would have named them himself if he were trying…

It makes it much easier to teach if you can refer to a lead-in or some section of a move by a name as well. Being able to say ‘’and put the ladies into a Ginger Lean’’ or ‘’the first section is just like a Heatwave until…’’ can convey a lot of information in a short space of time. The other view is that it makes it easier for the students to learn more complex routines in a short space of time (like in an intermediate class :yum: ) if they know the names of the other moves referred to.

In all honesty, as long as you have a reasonably consistent set of names in the area you learn to dance in it doesn’t matter if different organisations or clubs do use different names. The moves still have to be led of course, and unless your partner is using telepathy to lead you it doesn’t matter if you call the same moves by different names.

[MartinHarper]

It may be me but the only way I can lead the triple step is to say 'triple step' at the start of the move

It is leadable in principle, but it's a big challenge to lead in social MJ.

[Frankie_4711]

I agree that most of the time, blokes shouting moves at me just confuses me - as has been said, by the time you've worked out what he's said, why he's said it, what it means etc, it's too late - but sometimes it is useful. For instance, I find it useful to know when a Windmill is coming up, otherwise I have difficulty turning quickly enough; no way would I be able to synchronise my feet without him yelling 'Columbian' at me (preferably, though, before and not as it starts!); and as I know (at least) 2 lifts with the same (body) signal, I like to know which one to expect with the aid of a verbal signal, seeing as I've got to jump at a different time in each! (I know these can be lead without the verbal signal, but it feels smoother and more comfortable for me to know what's coming! - Is that cheating?)

[David Bailey]

Certain moves have verbal signals, such as if you're bringing the lady at high speed back under your crossed arms it is sometimes useful to yell "duck" as they whizz past, at least that way if you give them a smack on the head by mistake you can always say you warned them!
I used to think that, but I've changed my mind - now I believe that if you can't lead a move with your, err, lead, then any signal (verbal, hand, eyes or whatever) is a bad idea.

[CeeCee]

originally posted by killingtime
Though apparently some guys shout out move names

originally posted by timbp
I don't understand why anyone would shout out move names.

On the rare occasions that this happens, it tends to spoil the moment for me. Perhaps chaps feel secure calling out moves, if they doubt their leading ability.


originally posted by Gav
one for the followers, if your lead shouts a move, try shouting something back, like w@nker, tw@t or shut the fcuk up!

I thought someone famous said that partner dancing is a conversation. Is your suggestion a suitable response?

Thanks for your advice but if my lead shouts a move, even though it's irritating I think I'll continue to smile sweetly and just continue to follow him.

[Juju]

I don't understand why anyone would shout out move names. And I don't know many move names.

Someone shouted "bodyroll!" at me last night. Which was a larf, because I can't do them; I'm as flexible as your average ironing board. I just ended up thrusting my chest at my partner and giggling. :blush:

[Gav]

I thought someone famous said that partner dancing is a conversation. Is your suggestion a suitable response?

Thanks for your advice but if my lead shouts a move, even though it's irritating I think I'll continue to smile sweetly and just continue to follow him.

Indeed, but it's a conversation between to bodies, not two mouths. OK, maybe I was a little harsh, but isn't a lead meant to be an invitation to follow?
If someone started shouting moves at me, it'd sound too much like they're barking orders at me. That's not an invitation nor a conversation, that's a dictatorship.

[peppercorn]

I thought someone famous said that partner dancing is a conversation. Is your suggestion a suitable response?

Thanks for your advice but if my lead shouts a move, even though it's irritating I think I'll continue to smile sweetly and just continue to follow him.[/quote]

I've heard the same quote this weekend. Generally in a conversation someone doesn't say "and your response shal be this....." I thought the whole point of partner dance is that it looks as if you know what each other are about to do (or at least it should) otherwise it just looks crap.

I was in Brighton the other weekend and this chap decided to tell me each step I was going to do, 'cos i wasn't as good as him! I just felt patronised 'cos i'm not a beginner (and I wouldn't do it to a beginner)....i would say guys don't do it!!!

[killingtime]

If someone started shouting moves at me, it'd sound too much like they're barking orders at me.

Hit the dirt and give me fifty, soldier! Hoo-ah.


I was in Brighton the other weekend and this chap decided to tell me each step I was going to do, 'cos i wasn't as good as him! I just felt patronised 'cos i'm not a beginner (and I wouldn't do it to a beginner)....i would say guys don't do it!!!

That's horrible! I had the best dances of my weekend with you :flower:. I see no reason, from leading you, that anyone felt you couldn't just be lead into moves.

[ducasi]

[...] and as I know (at least) 2 lifts with the same (body) signal, I like to know which one to expect with the aid of a verbal signal, seeing as I've got to jump at a different time in each! (I know these can be lead without the verbal signal, but it feels smoother and more comfortable for me to know what's coming! - Is that cheating?)
For some complex or dangerous moves, such as aerials or drops, I think it makes perfect sense to make sure the girl knows exactly what is coming up – especially if requires an unled movement from her.

Of course, for this to work, it's necessary to first make sure that your partner knows the move and the name. :)

[Russell Saxby]

For example, the Straightjacket move (ably demonstrated at Finchley a couple of weeks ago, if I say so meself) only requires the lady to stand still whilst the guy effectively walks around her. But if the lady anticipates a turn and tries to move, it'll go horribly wrong.

Another example is a cross-body lead - if the lady anticipates an underarm turn, just because that's what she's used to, she'll go completely the wrong way round and her footwork will be messed up.


or something very simple like the in & out, and the leader pausing / stopping on the out - I do this all the time.

Amazing how quickly beginner followers learn to 'follow' after throwing a few of these in.

[Gav]

Indeed, but it's a conversation between to bodies, not two mouths. OK, maybe I was a little harsh, but isn't a lead meant to be an invitation to follow?
If someone started shouting moves at me, it'd sound too much like they're barking orders at me. That's not an invitation nor a conversation, that's a dictatorship.

Quoting myself! How narcissistic? :na:

I guess what I'd missed is that I don't currently do any moves that can't be led, so I couldn't see any point in shouting the move names and if I was following would find it quite insulting.
However, I'm willing to concede that there is a place for it if you're trying to do an unleadable move, but ONLY if you're certain that your partner knows what that move is called! :flower: