How much

[Groovemeister]

Something I realised last night is the influence that the social element of MJ has over me.

My normal partner was discussing the fact that a lot of the dancing we are doing now we would have never had done previously. Mainly because we know where our ability's lie but also because of what we feel as being sociably acceptable.

We are both married to non-dancing partners and so we felt that getting too intimate on the dance floor was wrong.

Is this yet another influence over the way we all dance I am sure it is. Part of the reason why the dance licencing laws in this country and America have been so controlled is because the government being led by the church felt dancing was somehow infecting our society. The dance music scene of the early 90's didn't really help the profile. Although I know it's not the same but it all gets put in the same pigeon hole.

I suppose most people on the forum are pretty open minded especially when talking about musicallity and expression but from the outside I am sure it would be difficult to understand.

A poll I think is needed

[Gav]

We are both married to non-dancing partners and so we felt that getting too intimate on the dance floor was wrong.


This bit's related to the thread about whether it's wise to date other dancers I think.

I can see why a non-dancing partner might have trouble with watching you grinding and wiggling with another person, but that's only because as a non-dancer they don't understand that it's possible to do that without it having any sexual meaning.

Personally, I think that it shouldn't hold you back and with a bit of explanation and understanding it should be perfectly OK. Don't mean to get too personal, but have you both spoken to your partners about it, or just assumed that it wouldn't be appropriate?

[Groovemeister]

This bit's related to the thread about whether it's wise to date other dancers I think.

I can see why a non-dancing partner might have trouble with watching you grinding and wiggling with another person, but that's only because as a non-dancer they don't understand that it's possible to do that without it having any sexual meaning.

Personally, I think that it shouldn't hold you back and with a bit of explanation and understanding it should be perfectly OK. Don't mean to get too personal, but have you both spoken to your partners about it, or just assumed that it wouldn't be appropriate?

Both our partners understand although doing it in front of them would probably be different and something I wouldn't want to go through to be honest. Thats what I mean about being sociably acceptable. It's more to do with your upbringing I guess.

It might be OK for anyone to do these moves if your partner understands but does that make it sociably acceptable.

[Twirly]

And there's a difference between intellectual understanding and emotional tolerance/understanding. Whilst they might accept your explanation and understand, that doesn't mean that emotionally they might not have a problem with it. So I guess that it's a matter of negotiation for the relationship partners.

And possibly similarly for the dancing partners. Would it be different if one or both were single? Could a fairly intimate dance style result in the development of feelings where there were none previously? What is acceptable with a regular dance partner and what is acceptable with a complete stranger or a mere acquaintance?

[Gav]

Fair point.
I guess as a single bloke it's different for me as I don't have to worry about making a partner feel uncomfortable, but I wouldn't say that my upbringing has made it easy for me. I wouldn't do any moves like that with a stranger without checking first, same as dips and drops really.

I do dance like that with 2 particular ladies whom I know like it and are comfortable doing it with me, but it is a little off-putting when I get "get a room" and "I've seen the way she looks at you" comments!

Meandering thoughts, but I guess what I'm saying is that it's not just non-dancers. Some dancers don't see that dancing with a little passion doesn't mean that you're getting passionate.

I'm mostly too polite to do so, but I'd love to just reply to "get a room" with "get a life" then immediately turn my back and ask someone else to dance.

[Groovemeister]

I am more interested in sociable acceptability though obviously partners in any relationship are going to have their own feeling's jealousy whatever.

I am more interested in how people feel say if their Mum, Dad favourite aunt came and watched them dance. Surely peole would back off if they thought it was inappropriate so there must be some influence that would make you do this.

[Twirly]

I am more interested in how people feel say if their Mum, Dad favourite aunt came and watched them dance. Surely peole would back off if they thought it was inappropriate so there must be some influence that would make you do this.

None of the above would bother me in the slightest. I doubt that there is anything much I could do that would shock my Dad! :rofl: It would only be a partner I'd be concerned about.

Gav - I think what you say about asking permission is good, and your attitude to those who disapprove. Keep up the good work - you might enlighten Norwich yet! :respect:

[Genie]

...it's possible to do that without it having any sexual meaning.

It doesn't? I find it very hard to avoid putting chemistry into a dance. To me, dancing is very sexual, even if there is no sexual attraction there. But the point about this is, yes, it is 'just' a dance. Something that can be done in public, without any emotional meaning and as long as it remains on the dance floor, it shouldn't be a problem.

My partner is quite happy to watch me dance. He understands that I enjoy it a lot - and makes good use of the state I am often in when I leave the venue after a lot of previously mentioned wiggling/grinding/close dancing :whistle:

I think it is different for everyone. If there's a non-dancing partner involved then that person should be consulted. Some people are naturally more possessive and insecure than others (and this is not a dig at people who are). Understanding the sexuality of dancing and what it means is very difficult for people who do not dance. I can only recommend that you explain it to them and if they have a problem with it, either stop dancing blues stuff with people , or just don't dance it when they are around. :rolleyes:

[Groovemeister]

And there's a difference between intellectual understanding and emotional tolerance/understanding. Whilst they might accept your explanation and understand, that doesn't mean that emotionally they might not have a problem with it. So I guess that it's a matter of negotiation for the relationship partners.

And possibly similarly for the dancing partners. Would it be different if one or both were single? Could a fairly intimate dance style result in the development of feelings where there were none previously? What is acceptable with a regular dance partner and what is acceptable with a complete stranger or a mere acquaintance?

So difficult isn't it but again how much does society influence us and the way we act. I know how I used to react to people i know who are in relationship's dancing intimately with others my attitude has changed obviously. From the outside of dance it would be very difficult to explain to anyone.

[Patrick]

And possibly similarly for the dancing partners. Would it be different if one or both were single? Could a fairly intimate dance style result in the development of feelings where there were none previously? What is acceptable with a regular dance partner and what is acceptable with a complete stranger or a mere acquaintance?

Since I've been single again, I can be much more relaxed about dancing intimately with partners who are happy to do that. As it happens, the most intimate dances I've had have been with strangers and acquaintances, not necessarily single. Including being passionately kissed in full view of everyone... :love: (I didn't start it, honest!) That can be a bit confusing. :confused: :confused:

If I dance close with someone I am already attracted to, it tends to deepen my feelings. If I wasn't attracted before, it probably makes no difference. Probably...

I do tend to be quite reserved with partners I don't know, but some are clearly happy to be up close and personal, even on a first dance.

If I were in a relationship, I would be more circumspect I guess, and hope my girlfriend would be too. I sometimes think, "why would I bring a date/girlfriend to an event where she will spend most of the evening dancing with other men?!"

I believe some couples tend to dance 'close' only with mutual friends, not strangers.

Patrick :flower:

PS Did u get the PM?

[robd]

I am more interested in sociable acceptability

Social acceptability does not exist in a vacuum, it depends entirely on context. What is socially acceptable at a Swingers party is far removed (I presume) from what is socially acceptable at a church fete (though it is possible that there could be people who are happy to participate in both)

An interesting aspect of this question for me is the idea of dancing differently if a partner is in attendance. Is it not more deceitful to dance differently (meaning more B n' G) when your partner is not there?

[Cruella]

Is it not more deceitful to dance differently (meaning more B n' G) when your partner is not there?

:whistle: :blush:
This maybe true, but if the partner is a non dancer and sees more into the 'up close and personal' than is actually there. Then surely it is better to keep the peace and tone it down when they are there?

[Gav]

I am more interested in how people feel say if their Mum, Dad favourite aunt came and watched them dance. Surely peole would back off if they thought it was inappropriate so there must be some influence that would make you do this.

I know I've changed what I consider to be acceptable over the years, but is that down to age, experience, the social side of MJ, who knows?

You have made me think though. Many years ago I would have been utterly ashamed if family caught me doing anything like that, but nowadays, I'd lay it on really thick if I thought they were watching. Guess I've turned into a show off!


It doesn't? I find it very hard to avoid putting chemistry into a dance. To me, dancing is very sexual, even if there is no sexual attraction there. But the point about this is, yes, it is 'just' a dance. Something that can be done in public, without any emotional meaning and as long as it remains on the dance floor, it shouldn't be a problem.


Is that sexual or sensual? and is the difference between the two just down to the meaning you associate with the word?

[Groovemeister]

Social acceptability does not exist in a vacuum, it depends entirely on context. What is socially acceptable at a Swingers party is far removed (I presume) from what is socially acceptable at a church fete (though it is possible that there could be people who are happy to participate in both)

An interesting aspect of this question for me is the idea of dancing differently if a partner is in attendance. Is it not more deceitful to dance differently (meaning more B n' G) when your partner is not there?

It's a matter of respect as well I think Rob. If my misses was there I would be doing all the Bn'G with her anyway.

[Twirly]

Social acceptability does not exist in a vacuum, it depends entirely on context. What is socially acceptable at a Swingers party is far removed (I presume) from what is socially acceptable at a church fete (though it is possible that there could be people who are happy to participate in both)

An interesting aspect of this question for me is the idea of dancing differently if a partner is in attendance. Is it not more deceitful to dance differently (meaning more B n' G) when your partner is not there?

So is blues half way between a church fete and a swingers party then?! :rofl:

I would say that there would only be deceit involved if you were lusting after the person you were dancing with - and the deceit would come not from your partners presence or absence, but if you had told them that dancing UCP didn't mean anything and that was a lie. The only doing it when they aren't around to witness (assuming you've been straight with them about what you are doing and why) is only to spare them having to watch it.

Which actually gives me another more fundamental question - why do we dance UCP/blues?

[Twirly]

Is that sexual or sensual? and is the difference between the two just down to the meaning you associate with the word?

:yeah:

[Patrick]

Social acceptability does not exist in a vacuum, it depends entirely on context. What is socially acceptable at a Swingers party is far removed (I presume) from what is socially acceptable at a church fete (though it is possible that there could be people who are happy to participate in both)

Yes, I just had the experience of dancing at a night club for the first time in ages. For those who were actually partner dancing by the end of the night, it was pretty full on at times. I thought we would get thrown out, but didn't.


An interesting aspect of this question for me is the idea of dancing differently if a partner is in attendance. Is it not more deceitful to dance differently (meaning more B n' G) when your partner is not there?

Yes it is clearly deceitful IMHO. I hope I would behave the same whether my partner were there or not.

[Trouble]

Fair point.

I'm mostly too polite to do so, but I'd love to just reply to "get a room" with "get a life" then immediately turn my back and ask someone else to dance.

:yeah:

i think people that say that sort of thing are not true dancers but more gossip mongers who have nothing better to do. Its people like that who grate me and who at the end of the day, make us more sensual dancers, who like to get up close sometimes with people they feel comfortable with,
turn their back on a perfectly acceptable venue. How very nice of you to be polite, i would have no hesitation in telling them where to get off. :flower:

[Caro]

I find it very hard to avoid putting chemistry into a dance. To me, dancing is very sexual, even if there is no sexual attraction there. But the point about this is, yes, it is 'just' a dance. Something that can be done in public, without any emotional meaning and as long as it remains on the dance floor, it shouldn't be a problem.


:yeah: There are people with whom there is just no way I'll dance blues... I just can't bear that level of intimacy with everybody. Now with friends and regular partners that's not a problem, but the more intimate we get, the more chemistry in the dance, and the more likely I am to be slightly confused and wonder if there's more to it than just dance.



the most intimate dances I've had have been with strangers and acquaintances, not necessarily single. Including being passionately kissed in full view of everyone...



To me that's clearly crossing a line, this is not about dancing anymore ! :eek:



An interesting aspect of this question for me is the idea of dancing differently if a partner is in attendance.

:yeah: Indeed... if there really wasn't anything 'wrong' then there should be no reason to behave differently when your partner is there. Now easier said than done!

[Patrick]

So is blues half way between a church fete and a swingers party then?! :rofl:

Well yes, actually! Blues is quite tame compared with Dirty Dancing I would say. Less sexual (but quite possibly more intimate). In fact one of the 'dirtiest' dancers I danced with said she doesn't bother with blues classes - too tame!


I would say that there would only be deceit involved if you were lusting after the person you were dancing with - and the deceit would come not from your partners presence or absence, but if you had told them that dancing UCP didn't mean anything and that was a lie. The only doing it when they aren't around to witness (assuming you've been straight with them about what you are doing and why) is only to spare them having to watch it.

I had the interesting experience recently of meeting my dance partner's boyfriend for the first time. He had never seen her dancing, he doesn't dance. We had just done a full day of workshops including Blues. She wanted him to see what we had been learning. We showed him everything we had done including the UCP stuff. I would have felt dishonest if we hadn't shown him that. He was fine about it. We even showed him a few steps. This was 5 minutes after we met.


Which actually gives me another more fundamental question - why do we dance UCP/blues?

Because it is emotionally nourishing and feels good I think. Mostly, we in the west are deprived of physical contact and intimacy. Dancing is an acceptable way of getting hugs!

[Trouble]

Because it is emotionally nourishing and feels good I think. Mostly, we in the west are deprived of physical contact and intimacy. Dancing is an acceptable way of getting hugs!


:yeah: us in the south too.... :D nothing wrong with a hug or a squeeze when done at the right moment....

[Twirly]

Because it is emotionally nourishing and feels good I think. Mostly, we in the west are deprived of physical contact and intimacy. Dancing is an acceptable way of getting hugs!

:yeah:

Actually this is exactly what I think too - just wondered if anyone else would say it. I suspect a certain sublimation going on too (at least for some of us) :devil:

[Gav]

Actually this is exactly what I think too - just wondered if anyone else would say it. I suspect a certain sublimation going on too (at least for some of us) :devil:

Had to look that one up :blush:
but see what wikipedia said about sublimation:

a sexually perverse person who is accustomed to wasting time and energy on sex, might instead rechannel those outlets towards expressions of sexuality such as art.

Is that what you meant Twirly?

[Patrick]

:yeah: us in the south too.... :D nothing wrong with a hug or a squeeze when done at the right moment....

Well I'm from the South West strictly speaking, so I'm doubly deprived!

I think I need to develop Blues style double trouble. :nice: :nice:

[Trouble]

Well I'm from the South West strictly speaking, so I'm doubly deprived!

I think I need to develop Blues style double trouble. :nice: :nice:


yeah you do. :yum: :flower:

[Patrick]

yeah you do. :yum: :flower:

I was going to ask if you have a twin to make you double trouble, but a sister is good too! :wink:

So does your sister dance by any chance.... :flower:

(I do a nice double sway/shimmy which usually gets a few giggles!)

Well actually it's a bit shaky, but it gets the giggles anyway...
:confused: Sometimes I can't tell if people are laughing with me, or at me... :sad: :tears:

[Patrick]

:yeah:

Actually this is exactly what I think too - just wondered if anyone else would say it. I suspect a certain sublimation going on too (at least for some of us) :devil:

It's not often I need to refer to the dictionary...

"sublimate v.t. .... 2. (fig.) refine, purify, idealize; (Psych.) divert energy of (primitive impulse) into culturally higher activity."

Hmmm, I never knew that. Obviously, I'm above such (self) deception.... :wink:

Sometimes it's just a hug, sometimes it feels like more. On thinking about it, if I start to get emotionally carried away in these situations, dancing close blues style encourages a loving connection, dirty dancing can have a baser effect. Or it can just be very funny!

[Twirly]

Had to look that one up :blush:
but see what wikipedia said about sublimation:

a sexually perverse person who is accustomed to wasting time and energy on sex, might instead rechannel those outlets towards expressions of sexuality such as art.

Is that what you meant Twirly?

Well that’s not quite the definition I had in mind, but almost. Try this from


http://dictionary.reference.com/:
Psychology. to divert the energy of (a sexual or other biological impulse) from its immediate goal to one of a more acceptable social, moral, or aesthetic nature or use.

Clearly the person who wrote the wikipedia definition has a problem with sex since they think it’s a waste of time and energy!


Well I'm from the South West strictly speaking, so I'm doubly deprived!

I think I need to develop Blues style double trouble. :nice: :nice:

I saw someone at Camber doing what I assumed was this… :eek: :blush: :really: :drool: interesting!

PS – is there a full moon or something? Lots of this sort of chatter on here today…

[Trouble]

I was going to ask if you have a twin to make you double trouble, but a sister is good too! :wink:

So does your sister dance by any chance.... :flower:

(I do a nice double sway/shimmy which usually gets a few giggles!)

Well actually it's a bit shaky, but it gets the giggles anyway...
:confused: Sometimes I can't tell if people are laughing with me, or at me... :sad: :tears:

i do have a sister and her name is double trouble on the forum... We do a good double act..... :whistle:

[bigdjiver]

...Is that sexual or sensual? and is the difference between the two just down to the meaning you associate with the word?
Sensual:

<TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dn vAlign=top>1.</TD><TD vAlign=top>pertaining to, inclined to, or preoccupied with the gratification of the senses or appetites; carnal; fleshly. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dn vAlign=top>2.</TD><TD vAlign=top>lacking in moral restraints; lewd or unchaste. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dn vAlign=top>3.</TD><TD vAlign=top>arousing or exciting the senses or appetites. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dn vAlign=top>4.</TD><TD vAlign=top>worldly; materialistic; irreligious. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dn vAlign=top>5.</TD><TD vAlign=top>of or pertaining to the senses or physical sensation; sensory. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dn vAlign=top>6.</TD><TD vAlign=top>pertaining to the philosophical doctrine of sensationalism. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>I think you mean sensuous :whistle:
:devil: but maybe not

[Gav]

Sensual:
I think you mean sensuous :whistle:
:devil: but maybe not

Depends who I'm dancing with! :devil:

[Achaeco]

Something I realised last night is the influence that the social element of MJ has over me.

My normal partner was discussing the fact that a lot of the dancing we are doing now we would have never had done previously. Mainly because we know where our ability's lie but also because of what we feel as being sociably acceptable.

We are both married to non-dancing partners and so we felt that getting too intimate on the dance floor was wrong.

Is this yet another influence over the way we all dance I am sure it is. Part of the reason why the dance licencing laws in this country and America have been so controlled is because the government being led by the church felt dancing was somehow infecting our society. The dance music scene of the early 90's didn't really help the profile. Although I know it's not the same but it all gets put in the same pigeon hole.

I suppose most people on the forum are pretty open minded especially when talking about musicallity and expression but from the outside I am sure it would be difficult to understand.

A poll I think is needed


MJ did nothing for my LAST marrage,she Could'nt stand the touchy feely of it all, but hey ive found a new one through MJ........................come to think about it she's not keen on me dancing with good looking ladies either.

[fletch]

but hey ive found a new one through MJ........................come to think about it she's not keen on me dancing with good looking ladies either.


now I know why I didn't get a dance on Saturday :wink:


How's that bump coming on :hug:



.

[Trouble]

Depends who I'm dancing with! :devil:


:yeah:

[Achaeco]

now I know why I didn't get a dance on Saturday :wink:


How's that bump coming on :hug:



.

Any time Fletch. she's seen you scratching my back and the claws stayed in:devil:

[Achaeco]

now I know why I didn't get a dance on Saturday :wink:


How's that bump coming on :hug:



.

ooo forgot about the bump!:whistle: should be showing his face in about 6 days.:clap:

[fletch]

Any time Fletch. she's seen you scratching my back and the claws stayed in:devil:


She know's i'm NO threat, love ya both :flower:


.

[Achaeco]

She know's i'm NO threat, love ya both :flower:


.

Its not you, its me:wink:

[fletch]

ooo forgot about the bump!:whistle: should be showing his face in about 6 days.:clap:


You make sure you give her loads of attention there wont be that much time when HE ? gets here :hug:



.

[Achaeco]

You make sure you give her loads of attention there wont be that much time when HE ? gets here :hug:



.

As i always have and yes HE

[fletch]

Its not you, its me:wink:



well you have a good one there :worthy: look after her :hug:

[jivecat]

Well yes, actually! Blues is quite tame compared with Dirty Dancing I would say. Less sexual (but quite possibly more intimate). In fact one of the 'dirtiest' dancers I danced with said she doesn't bother with blues classes - too tame!



I have no problem with UCP jive moves though, for me, that's definitely not what the dance is all about. Also I assume that whatever goes on on the dance floor is just dance, I never read any other significance into it.

What I do find really difficult to cope with, though, is the close hold (chest to chest) in tango. You'd have thought it would be tame after all that groin-grinding in MJ. I think it's the implications of emotional intimacy with complete strangers that winds me up, plus the fact that I haven't done it often enough to get used to it.

I was refused a place on a tango workshop recently because I wasn't booking on with a partner, the reason given being that if women who had booked on with their husbands had to sit and watch their husband dancing in close hold with someone else due to extra ladies in the rotation they would justifiably be p*ssed off.

I do sometimes get a bit edgy about UCP moves if I'm dancing with someone who I know is married or has a partner. Not that I imagine most women in MJ would mind, or at least, I assume their partners wouldn't do UCP moves with someone else if they knew their partner would object.


At tango last night we learnt some moves where the lady is led to throw her leg around the man's leg as he pulls her off-balance towards him. All in a day's work at Ceroc, but the guy I had been dancing with wanted to spend 5minutes or so getting the lead for it exactly right. He seemed to be a bit embarrassed and apologised because he said the move seemed a little "rude". "Nonsense!" I replied, having done far worse in MJ, but after a few minutes I began to be conscious of his wife beginning to hover rather restlessly. After the dance was over she insisted that he practise the same moves with her, in a rather pointed kind of way. I felt like a scarlet woman.
:blush:




Because it is emotionally nourishing and feels good I think. Mostly, we in the west are deprived of physical contact and intimacy. Dancing is an acceptable way of getting hugs!
Is that sad but true or wonderful and true?

[Nessiemonster]

My feelings towards this have changed in the last few months as I've become more confident and comfortable in my dancing. I now have no problem with dancing UCP with people generally, although I can be a bit picky.

I do have a work colleague with whom I have an unspoken agreement that we won't dance that close - for me that's blurring boundaries as I work closely with him every day.

I generally feel safe dancing close with people because it's kept on the dance floor. The only time I've ever felt uncomfortable is when one individual in whom I had no romantic/sexual interest started to pursue it off the dance floor. I've done a fair job of avoiding him since!

I find that being prepared to be that be closer with someone can add so much to the dance in terms of interpretation of the music (plus I'm a pretty sensual (or is that sensuous?) person, so it gives me an opportunity to express that safely). I'll also go with the whole thing about it being a great way to gain physical contact, but that's just a pleasant side effect, and not the reason I dance like that (she adds quickly in case people consider themselves being used! :flower: )

I guess the only concern I may have about the whole thing is that because we keep it on the dance floor, and some of us are more expressive there than others, I may miss the man of my dreams, because I think it's just a dance... :eek: :drool:

[Gav]

Is that sad but true or wonderful and true?

Sad if u dont dance, wonderful if you do! :hug:

[Blueshoes]

Society, especially in England, has conventions about physical contact. In my experience and from my background people (and God forbid members of the opposite sex) rarely touched each other. I love touching (I was going to say I love feeling but this may have been misconstrued :whistle:) and it was so refreshing to come into a situation where the first thing you did was take hold of your partners hand :grin: .

I love to dance close - as long as my partner doesn't show signs of not wanting to. With a new partner I may try some experimental moves and if she seems to enjoy them them move on from there. The only time I don't like to do this is with a lady much younger than myself as I don't want her to feel uncomfortable or think I'm dancing close with her because she's young.

I know other people who feel the same way, but it probably says more about me and my upbringing than anything else. Thinking now I'm not sure if it's because I don't want the young lady to be uncomfortable or because the situation makes me feel uncomfortable. I was fine when I started writing this, now I'm all confused! :(

Anyway, it's definitely "Full on blues I don't care what people think" :worthy:

[Frankie_4711]

I love UCP dancing, and am happy to do it with anyone, whether good friend or complete stranger.

My husband (a non-dancer, who believes that giving a guy a hug/air kiss to say hello or goodbye is unacceptable) accompanied me to Breeze and wanted to come and watch me dance. I wasn't sure how comfortable I'd be doing Bluesy dancing with him watching, but as the only interesting dancing going on at the time was in the Boudoir I thought I'd give it a go, but maybe keep my distance a bit.

Not to be!

After a couple of dances, I cautiously went back to him to see if he would comment. All his comments were along the lines of how good I was!:eek:

After that I felt much more comfortable and it didn't bother me having him watching. I was so relieved, as he was with me most of the day both Saturday and Sunday so would have severely limited my enjoyment of the whole weekend if he'd minded!

We were taught a very basic, and not particularly UCP, blues routine in class last week, for which I had a fixed partner so didn't get to 'assess' the other men, but was talking to one of them afterwards during the freestyle, who said he quite enjoyed the class, but his wife wasn't happy dancing 'like that' with poeple she didn't know very well, and I also noticed there were quite a few people sitting out the class. I thought this was a real shame, but I suppose so long as I'm not stopped from doing it, and there are enough guys out there willing to dance with me, then it doesn't matter.

[Genie]

I enjoy UCP moves, esspecially the standard Blues stance where I can just rest my head on the lead's shoulder and stay there. It's closer to getting a hug than dancing, but it does feel sooooo good.

I think there should be a new rule in Blues. If the follow doesn't raise her head, the lead is not allowed to move :p
...but I guess that would be the end of Blues dancing.

Anyway, some people have a a problem with UCP moves, and some don't. I only have a problem with them when the lead gets too sleezy in a freaky way. This has only happened to me once though and it wasn't even a Blues dance.

Sexual or sensual? - as has already been pointed out, it depends on your definition. I'd count 'sensual' as a part of 'sexuality' when dancing. But that is just my opinion :)

[Lynn]

This maybe true, but if the partner is a non dancer and sees more into the 'up close and personal' than is actually there. Then surely it is better to keep the peace and tone it down when they are there?Yep. Because you are being sensitive to your non-dancing partner's feelings. You may know it doesn't 'mean' what it looks like, but they might not view it that way.

As an interesting aside, the dancers I've had chemistry off the dance floor with, are ones that I've rarely, or never, danced UCP with.

[Gadget]

This thread is perhaps worth reading:
Blues, UCP, Sinful, Sensual... What are they & how do they differ? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4951)

I think it depends on the music and the dancer how 'intimate' I get - I try to mirror how close my partner feels they want to be. This can be full body contact, moving together as the one body, or with a 'respectable' space holding some sizzling chemistry. Or a mixture of them both if I'm lucky :D :devil:
I have very little (/no) personal boundaries, but I respect other peoples. That's one of the key things dancing is about; respecting your partner. Feaking them out or making them uncomfortable just isn't in the best interests of the dance.

I think I get board just swaying in a standard blues hold for too long... perhaps I need to get some lessons from Nick about 'micro-blues'. (... or develop something similar...~ting~)

Dancing UCP within sight of my partner?... nope. A muggle who is too much of a green-eyed monster.

How much is too much? That depends on your partner, not the audience.

[Lynn]

What I do find really difficult to cope with, though, is the close hold (chest to chest) in tango. You'd have thought it would be tame after all that groin-grinding in MJ. I think it's the implications of emotional intimacy with complete strangers that winds me up, plus the fact that I haven't done it often enough to get used to it. I'm too busy concentrating to worry about it too much. I think it looks very intimate, but has just felt like another part of the dancing that I need to learn. I haven't been able to seperate out the intensity of the dance concentration from the intensity of the intimacy of the connection yet. (Aside from a few situations where I was more aware of it - eg once at a milonga in Dublin, but I think that was partly because the guy was rather cute! I totally forgot what I was supposed to be doing. :blush: )

[David Bailey]

I'm too busy concentrating to worry about it too much. I think it looks very intimate, but has just felt like another part of the dancing that I need to learn. I haven't been able to seperate out the intensity of the dance concentration from the intensity of the intimacy of the connection yet.
:yeah: I am so far from even thinking about that sort of thing in AT, it's scary - I spend all my time thinking about steps, leading and trying not to collide with other people at the moment. The closeness of the hold is almost academic to me; I just think more about how to lead ochos and stuff when dancing that close.

Although, having said that, I do think a lot of tango-eros do get thrown by that close hold when they first encounter it.

[fletch]

The only time I don't like to do this is with a lady much younger than myself as I don't want her to feel uncomfortable or think I'm dancing close with her because she's young.

Thinking now I'm not sure if it's because I don't want the young lady to be uncomfortable or because the situation makes me feel uncomfortable. I was fine when I started writing this, now I'm all confused! :(

Anyway, it's definitely "Full on blues I don't care what people think" :worthy:

My 12 year old has started dancing....as you know,:rolleyes: when we go to venues I try to point out people for to ask to dance, but I also point out people not to ask, this isn't because i'm unhappy dancing with them, on the contrary, it more likely to be because they do UCP moves within there routine and I don't want them feeling uncomfortable dancing with her.


:nice:



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[Groovemeister]

It's I suppose a sign of the people who looking at this forum because we are into our Dance and want to progress that we see things differently.

I was talking to some non-dance friends about dancing UCP and al of them said the same that it would make them feel uncomfortable watching and doing.

I think society has a big influence over the way you dance in far more ways than most people will admit. Yes there are people that will just love a more intimate way of dancing over anything else and there are lot's of reason's why. Somebody could probably get a degree out of analysing it.

At the end of the day it is down to the individual and their thoughts, life style relationships with how comfortable they feel. I know personally whatever I do there will be a limit to where I go with dancing UCP moves even if I wasn't married just because of my upbringing and my englishness.
There is something inbuilt in us English that will only let you go so far before we get all moralist.

[Gav]

It's I suppose a sign of the people who looking at this forum because we are into our Dance and want to progress that we see things differently.

I was talking to some non-dance friends about dancing UCP and al of them said the same that it would make them feel uncomfortable watching and doing.

I think society has a big influence over the way you dance in far more ways than most people will admit. Yes there are people that will just love a more intimate way of dancing over anything else and there are lot's of reason's why. Somebody could probably get a degree out of analysing it.

At the end of the day it is down to the individual and their thoughts, life style relationships with how comfortable they feel. I know personally whatever I do there will be a limit to where I go with dancing UCP moves even if I wasn't married just because of my upbringing and my englishness.
There is something inbuilt in us English that will only let you go so far before we get all moralist.

I have been stuck in my Englishness for a few years and we all also have our "comfort zones", but isn't the spice of life in pushing outside of those comfort zones?

Isn't that what makes life exciting?

I'm still a little uncomfortable with UCP, but when I know I'm relatively safe to do it, it's that much more exciting! and it expands too.

At Camber in one of the classes, they taught a 'shoulder roll, mambo, grindy swingy, thingy' which was fine in the class, because that's a safe place. Back in East Anglia I wouldn't dream of sprining it on anyone, but when I told a friend about it, she asked me to do it and she loved it! This is the same person that finds combs creepy, but she's happy UCP and grinding! More importantly, other ladies have seen us do it and asked me to show them!

[Twirly]

One thing that's occured to me reading these discussions is that as a follow, you don't always have a choice as to how UCP you can get. I got asked to dance at the last Hammersmith I went to by a total stranger - I wrote about it on here the following week as the dance had rather unnerved me (it was the one where I accidentally head-butted him :blush: ).

If I wanted to dance to that track with him, I had very little choice but to be UCP, and I did find myself moving away a few times during the track to put a little more space between us when it got a bit too much for me (basically when I felt that my thigh and his groin had been wedeged together a little too long :really: ). He didn't ask if I was OK doing that style of dance, just pulled me into a very close hold and started the grinding thing immediately. I was too taken aback for the first few minutes of the dance to do anything about it. I could have asked him to stop, or I guess that I could have walked off the dance floor - either would have felt awkward and rude (and not being rude is another very English trait!). It wasn't blues either - it was too fast a track for that. I did sort of enjoy the dance, but it was the first time someone had got that UCP with me, and I joked to my friend when I came off the dancefloor that the dance had traumatised me, though it was only half a joke...

Of course I'm sure that no male forumites would behave like this. :innocent:

[Lynn]

He didn't ask if I was OK doing that style of dance, just pulled me into a very close hold and started the grinding thing immediately. I was too taken aback for the first few minutes of the dance to do anything about it. I could have asked him to stop, or I guess that I could have walked off the dance floor - either would have felt awkward and rude (and not being rude is another very English trait!).This is not acceptable behaviour. That may be his usual style of dance - for some leads it is - but if so then he should be 'reading' how comfortable/uncomfortable the follow is and adjusting accordingly.

I danced with someone on a weekender recently who was too UCP for me. I hadn't danced with him before, didn't know him or feel comfortable enough with him. At one point I knew he was trying to lead me in 'sink the knees and wiggle together' type move that I simply didn't want to do and therefore didn't. He then tried to push on my shoulder to get me to follow the move. :mad:

A lead should give you space to move back out of any close hold - sometimes I want to break out of it simply because I feel like doing something else and moving back into it. Most leads, even when they have you in a very close embrace type hold, give the freedom to 'move out' and then lead into something else.

[Gadget]

Of course I'm sure that no male forumites would behave like this. :innocent::devil: only if you ask nicely :devil:

[SnowWhite]

I think this quote from Ceroc Jock in the Uncomfortable Eye Contact thread is as relevent here.

"Dance is just a 3 minute performance: it's not real life.:grin:"

However up close and personal the dance may APPEAR to be, a dance is still just a dance - is it not? :whistle:

I dance the same whether my partner is present or not, as I would always wish to dance to the best of my ability for the person I am dancing with, and in the constant attempt to improve my own dancing.

And at the end of each dance, there is a moment of politeness and appreciation :flower: and it is then either back to the real world, or back on the floor with the next dancer...
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[Beowulf]

I'm somewhere between "God I wouldn't dance like that what would people think" and "don't like it close but slowing it down is good" with a little bit of "Smooth and slow is where it's at, it's about the dance" thrown in for good measure.

am not 100% comfortable with some of the close moves, but I have been practising my BASIC blues stuff (once I figured out I was doing it back wards of course.. back to square 1!)

Rarely (ie NEVER) put it into practise, but at least I know now what it is and how it's suppose to go.

I suppose once I find a partner I can be comfortable with and a song I like I might be tempted to blues it up a little.. but I'm probably a little too self conscious to dance like that in public.

[Gadget]

... but I'm probably a little too self conscious to dance like that in public.Dance next to someone good - they will draw all the attention and you can bask in anonymity :D

{not my advice: I stole it from someone else, but good advice none the less :D}

[Gav]

To me this is all about how we appear to ourselves and others around us, whether they be strangers or people whose opinions matter and occasionally whether we take others' feelings into account when we're performing.

Occasionally writers hit the nail on the head so I'd like to quote from the film "Revolver":

There is something about yourself that you don't know.
Something that you will deny even exists, until it's too late to do anything about it.
It's the only reason you get up in the morning. The only reason you suffer the shitty puss, the blood, the sweat and the tears.
This is because you want people to know how good, attractive, generous, funny, wild and clever you really are.
Fear or revere me, but please, think I'm special.
We share an addiction.
We're approval junkies.
We're all in it for the slap on the back and the gold watch. The hip-hip-hoo-****in' rah.
Look at the clever boy with the badge, polishing his trophy.
Shine on you crazy diamond, because we're just monkeys wrapped in suits, begging for the approval of others.

[Jhutch]

Dance next to someone good - they will draw all the attention and you can bask in anonymity :D

{not my advice: I stole it from someone else, but good advice none the less :D}

But might not the comparison with the good people make you appear to be worse than you think you are?:really:

:grin:

[Groovemeister]

To me this is all about how we appear to ourselves and others around us, whether they be strangers or people whose opinions matter and occasionally whether we take others' feelings into account when we're performing.

Occasionally writers hit the nail on the head so I'd like to quote from the film "Revolver":

There is something about yourself that you don't know.
Something that you will deny even exists, until it's too late to do anything about it.
It's the only reason you get up in the morning. The only reason you suffer the shitty puss, the blood, the sweat and the tears.
This is because you want people to know how good, attractive, generous, funny, wild and clever you really are.
Fear or revere me, but please, think I'm special.
We share an addiction.
We're approval junkies.
We're all in it for the slap on the back and the gold watch. The hip-hip-hoo-****in' rah.
Look at the clever boy with the badge, polishing his trophy.
Shine on you crazy diamond, because we're just monkeys wrapped in suits, begging for the approval of others.
:yeah: :worthy:

[ducasi]

[...] my englishness.
There is something inbuilt in us English that will only let you go so far before we get all moralist.
Fortunately us Scots are different! :na:

[ducasi]

I quite like a bit of UCP dancing, though it depends on the person... Strangely it's with girls that I know better as friends that I have more of a problem being bluesy with.

I judge on how close the girl wants to get to me before I will decide how close I will get with her.

[Beowulf]

can I just ask? what is UCP?

[Jhutch]

can I just ask? what is UCP?

LOL:grin: I had been trying to work that out (Ultra/Uncomfortably Close Partners?:sick: ) and had been going to ask. Then i happened to find the forum guide site and it said that it stood for Up Close and Personal

[Beowulf]

LOL:grin: I had been trying to work that out (Ultra/Uncomfortably Close Partners?:sick: ) and had been going to ask. Then i happened to find the forum guide site and it said that it stood for Up Close and Personal

AH!! yes makes sense. Was thinking WCS - West Coast Swing so UCP was some form of dance .. Ukranian Ceroc Polka anyone?

[Genie]

:rofl:

Uncomfortably Close Proximity is another one I've heard often. Depends on how you like it :wink: